Von Pein Again

[Thomas H. Purvis]

[...]

The theory just isn't true. While the FBI and SS created widely diverging shooting scenarios, in which the final shot was measured at a point after Kennedy's position at frame 313, they both believed the head shot at frame 313 was the final shot. So why did they incorrectly measure the distance for this shot? Good question. I'm beginning to suspect they were just lazy, and that they marked the head shot location at a point next to where the wreaths were placed in Dealey, at a point opposite the steps, without actually establishing this location via the Zapruder and Nix films. An alternative or complimentary explanation is that they incorrectly thought Zapruder was standing by the steps, and not the Arcade.

during the two (2) SS/FBI re-enactments frame blowups from the Zapruder film were ustilized to establish shot/limo placement! As well as the surveyor plat! They were not "lazy".... Your last sentence above Pat, is a real stretch! Unless your aware of another film capturing the assassination from the north side of Elm Street?

Not unlike much of the medical evidence, Pat just kind of makes up things in his own mind when he has little or no understanding of the facts.

FACT:

1. JBC as well as Nellie, fully informed as to their position in the Presidential Limo at the time of the impact of the last shot which blew cerebral tissue all over them.*

*Wanna know why JBC's coat was laundered. BS/Blood/Cerebral Tissue Spatter can not get all over the back side of one's coat when they are sitting almost upright in a jump seat, as in the Z313 impact.

However, when one is laying across the open area of the jump seats with their back and shoulder exposed, there is little trouble in receiving spatter of cerebral tissue all over the BACK of one's coat.

2. Multiple witnesses testified as to seeing the Z313/aka SECOND shot impact to the head of JFK.

As well as then stating that the third/last shot was fired after this.

3. Multiple witnesses gave the proximity of the Presidential Limo at the time of the third shot, and, that location was farther down Elm St.

4. James Altgens, who was some 35+ feet farther down Elm St. from the Z313 impact distance is, as far as is known, the only person to visually see the results of the third shot impact to the head of JFK.

This, the last shot, struck as the Presidential Limo was almost directly in front of James Altgens position.

"The theory just isn't true. While the FBI and SS created widely diverging shooting scenarios, in which the final shot was measured at a point after Kennedy's position at frame 313, they both believed the head shot at frame 313 was the final shot."

(Pat Speer)

Quite strange then, is it not, that both the SS as well as the FBI, during ACTUAL ASSASSINATION RE-ENACTMENTS in Dallas, both had surveyed in and determined the Third/Last/Final shot impact as being directly in front of James Altgens position.

Since Pat quite apparantly "don't" have either the survey plats or the survey notes, then he must have been paying attention to nothing.

Third shot impact:----Survey Stationing 4+95 (as actually surveyed in)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Z313 impact:----Survey Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pat's "source"!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm

Mr. GAUTHIER. Inspector. I am in charge of the Bureau's exhibit section, where we prepare investigative aids, consisting of diagrams, charts, maps, three-dimensional exhibits, in connection with the presentation of cases in court.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Twenty-nine years.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to reconstruct certain models to scale in connection with the investigation on the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; I did.

------------------------------------------

He makes models and charts.

And, one should also recall that Mr. Gauthier is the one, who with the aid of Specter, gave us this!

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container.

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

NOPE! It do not!

Pat, who quite apparantly understands little if anything about the manipulations of evidence, can stick with Gauthier and his "Tinker-Toy" models and assassination re-enactments on a 1/4 scale all that he so desires.

Perhaps this is as a result of only understanding about 1/4 of the factual evidence related to the assassination.

As to "Ole Tom".

I personally will stick with the survey plats and survey notes in my possession which were actually produced as a result of "real-life" assassination re-enactments which were conducted in Dallas by the SS during December 2, 3, & 4th of 1963, and again repeated by the FBI on 2/7/64.

Both survey plats of which relatively accurately plot/plat the impact location of the third/last/final shot fired, directly in front of where James Altgens was standing.

And, although I recognize the stigma one could incur from quoting JEH:

OK, but it looks to me as if they are "playing games".JEH

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=252

[Thomas H. Purvis]

[...]

The theory just isn't true. While the FBI and SS created widely diverging shooting scenarios, in which the final shot was measured at a point after Kennedy's position at frame 313, they both believed the head shot at frame 313 was the final shot. So why did they incorrectly measure the distance for this shot? Good question. I'm beginning to suspect they were just lazy, and that they marked the head shot location at a point next to where the wreaths were placed in Dealey, at a point opposite the steps, without actually establishing this location via the Zapruder and Nix films. An alternative or complimentary explanation is that they incorrectly thought Zapruder was standing by the steps, and not the Arcade.

during the two (2) SS/FBI re-enactments frame blowups from the Zapruder film were ustilized to establish shot/limo placement! As well as the surveyor plat! They were not "lazy".... Your last sentence above Pat, is a real stretch! Unless your aware of another film capturing the assassination from the north side of Elm Street?

Not unlike much of the medical evidence, Pat just kind of makes up things in his own mind when he has little or no understanding of the facts.

FACT:

1. JBC as well as Nellie, fully informed as to their position in the Presidential Limo at the time of the impact of the last shot which blew cerebral tissue all over them.*

*Wanna know why JBC's coat was laundered. BS/Blood/Cerebral Tissue Spatter can not get all over the back side of one's coat when they are sitting almost upright in a jump seat, as in the Z313 impact.

However, when one is laying across the open area of the jump seats with their back and shoulder exposed, there is little trouble in receiving spatter of cerebral tissue all over the BACK of one's coat.

2. Multiple witnesses testified as to seeing the Z313/aka SECOND shot impact to the head of JFK.

As well as then stating that the third/last shot was fired after this.

3. Multiple witnesses gave the proximity of the Presidential Limo at the time of the third shot, and, that location was farther down Elm St.

4. James Altgens, who was some 35+ feet farther down Elm St. from the Z313 impact distance is, as far as is known, the only person to visually see the results of the third shot impact to the head of JFK.

This, the last shot, struck as the Presidential Limo was almost directly in front of James Altgens position.

"The theory just isn't true. While the FBI and SS created widely diverging shooting scenarios, in which the final shot was measured at a point after Kennedy's position at frame 313, they both believed the head shot at frame 313 was the final shot."

(Pat Speer)

Quite strange then, is it not, that both the SS as well as the FBI, during ACTUAL ASSASSINATION RE-ENACTMENTS in Dallas, both had surveyed in and determined the Third/Last/Final shot impact as being directly in front of James Altgens position.

Since Pat quite apparantly "don't" have either the survey plats or the survey notes, then he must have been paying attention to nothing.

Third shot impact:----Survey Stationing 4+95 (as actually surveyed in)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Z313 impact:----Survey Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pat's "source"!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm

Mr. GAUTHIER. Inspector. I am in charge of the Bureau's exhibit section, where we prepare investigative aids, consisting of diagrams, charts, maps, three-dimensional exhibits, in connection with the presentation of cases in court.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Twenty-nine years.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to reconstruct certain models to scale in connection with the investigation on the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; I did.

------------------------------------------

He makes models and charts.

And, one should also recall that Mr. Gauthier is the one, who with the aid of Specter, gave us this!

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container.

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------

NOPE! It do not!

Pat, who quite apparantly understands little if anything about the manipulations of evidence, can stick with Gauthier and his "Tinker-Toy" models and assassination re-enactments on a 1/4 scale all that he so desires.

Perhaps this is as a result of only understanding about 1/4 of the factual evidence related to the assassination.

As to "Ole Tom".

I personally will stick with the survey plats and survey notes in my possession which were actually produced as a result of "real-life" assassination re-enactments which were conducted in Dallas by the SS during December 2, 3, & 4th of 1963, and again repeated by the FBI on 2/7/64.

Both survey plats of which relatively accurately plot/plat the impact location of the third/last/final shot fired, directly in front of where James Altgens was standing.

And, although I recognize the stigma one could incur from quoting JEH:

OK, but it looks to me as if they are "playing games".JEH

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=252

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=247

"OK. It sounds like a lot of Poppy Cock to me"H

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=246

Letter dated: January 28, 1964.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many occasions were you a participant in an analysis of these various films which you have just described?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Seven.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first time that you were a participant in such an analysis?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On January 27, 1964.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else has been with you at the time you analyzed those films just stating in a general way without identifying each person present on each of the occasions?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On most occasions, Mr. Gauthier of the FBI was present, I was present, Mr. Malley of the FBI was present. Inspector Kelley from Secret Service, and Mr. John Howlett from Secret Service.

Representatives of the Commission were always present--normally Mr. Redlich, Mr. Specter, or Mr. Eisenberg were present.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present on May 24 in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, was done at the site of the assassination on that date?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On May 24, 1964, representatives of the Commission, Secret Service, and FBI reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=247

"SA Shaneyfelt will go to Dallas and make the study requested by the Commission."

"Being done"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Pat!

Wanna know who tried to sell us the FBI Survey plat of 2/7/64 in which the THIRD/LAST/FINAL impact point was left down at Stationing 4+95, and as I have previously explained, the FBI made attempt to "move" the Z313 second impact point some 24.5 feet back up Elm St. prior to JFK having even passed the Mary Moorman/Jean Hill/yellow curb mark?

===================================

Be sure and come back and visit when you have actually learned something about the survey works in Dallas, as I truly have better things to do then explain the "Tinker Toy"/aka "My Favorite Model" measurements which Gauthier came up with by playing with his pride and joy.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=246

Letter dated: January 28, 1964.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many occasions were you a participant in an analysis of these various films which you have just described?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Seven.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first time that you were a participant in such an analysis?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On January 27, 1964.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else has been with you at the time you analyzed those films just stating in a general way without identifying each person present on each of the occasions?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On most occasions, Mr. Gauthier of the FBI was present, I was present, Mr. Malley of the FBI was present. Inspector Kelley from Secret Service, and Mr. John Howlett from Secret Service.

Representatives of the Commission were always present--normally Mr. Redlich, Mr. Specter, or Mr. Eisenberg were present.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present on May 24 in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, was done at the site of the assassination on that date?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On May 24, 1964, representatives of the Commission, Secret Service, and FBI reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=247

"SA Shaneyfelt will go to Dallas and make the study requested by the Commission."

"Being done"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Pat!

Wanna know who tried to sell us the FBI Survey plat of 2/7/64 in which the THIRD/LAST/FINAL impact point was left down at Stationing 4+95, and as I have previously explained, the FBI made attempt to "move" the Z313 second impact point some 24.5 feet back up Elm St. prior to JFK having even passed the Mary Moorman/Jean Hill/yellow curb mark?

===================================

Be sure and come back and visit when you have actually learned something about the survey works in Dallas, as I truly have better things to do then explain the "Tinker Toy"/aka "My Favorite Model" measurements which Gauthier came up with by playing with his pride and joy.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=246

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=247

"It is not clear just what the accurate determination off the speed of the car will contribute to the case."

"SA Shaneyfelt stated that this could be done based on an examination of the film and cameras involved, accompanied by a survey of the actual site in Dallas."

==============================================================

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do

Kennedy Assassination Chronicles, Volume 7, Issue 3 pg 1

Found in: Kennedy Assassination Chronicles

multiple hits in this document

The Fourth Decade, Volume 3, Issue 1 pg 17

Found in: The Fourth Decade

Purvis, who has been corre- sponding with Robert West since 1991, the level of government deceit can now be understood. This is not the first time Mr. West and surveyor, Chester Breneman, have raised

================================================

And now, one knows "The Rest of the Story". (or at least most of it anyway!)

http://www.jfk-online.com/shaneyfeltshaw.html

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. OSER:

Q: Would you state your full name for the record, please.

A: My name is Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, L-y-n-d-a-l, middle initial L, S-h-a-n-e-y-f-e-l-t.

Q: Where do you reside, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

A: I reside at 6125 Vernon Terrace, Alexandria, Virginia.

Q: By whom are you employed?

A: As a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

===============

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

VERNON TER., 6125-Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt to James H. and Jennifer O. Rooney, $1.4 million.

[Pat Speer]

Tom,

You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them.

As far as the Connnallys, they both implied the head shot at 313 was the last shot. For the FBI and the mainstream press, that was game, point, match. Connally says Kennedy was hit before him, and that he was hit by the second, and that the third hit Kennedy in the head. Okie-doke. He's the President's buddy. And a national hero. They ignored the statements of everyone else after that.

For a long time, I thought you were right, and believed that the surveys demonstrated that the FBI and SS thought there'd been a shot after the head shot. But then I checked the paper trail at maryferrell, and found memo after memo stating that Connally was hit by the second shot and that the last shot was the head shot at frame 313. I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose.

[David G. Healy]

Tom,

You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them.

As far as the Connnallys, they both implied the head shot at 313 was the last shot. For the FBI and the mainstream press, that was game, point, match. Connally says Kennedy was hit before him, and that he was hit by the second, and that the third hit Kennedy in the head. Okie-doke. He's the President's buddy. And a national hero. They ignored the statements of everyone else after that.

For a long time, I thought you were right, and believed that the surveys demonstrated that the FBI and SS thought there'd been a shot after the head shot. But then I checked the paper trail at maryferrell, and found memo after memo stating that Connally was hit by the second shot and that the last shot was the head shot at frame 313. I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose.

Are you assuming a more than three shot scenario? Perhaps its simply the 3rd and final shot occurred further west on Elm Street, 12-15 feet in front of Altgens as in his testimony? As for Z-313 current location? Well, if the Z-film was altered, that's a non-starter.

Edited September 16, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Pat Speer]

Are you assuming a more than three shot scenario? Perhaps its simply the 3rd and final shot occurred further west on Elm Street, 12-15 feet in front of Altgens as in his testimony? As for Z-313 current location? Well, if the Z-film was altered, that's a non-starter.

Ironically, I agree with Tom that there was a shot fired after the head shot. I just don't think that Altgens, the FBI or the SS ever shared our belief. As stated, I used to believe they shared our belief, but then took a walk through the FBI files at Maryferrell, and found they believed that Connally's been hit by the second shot, and that the exploding headshot at frame 313 (which they inexplicably describe as a halo) marked the final shot.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Pat & Others:

First off, this topic was begun in an attempt to demonstrate that the "Far Right" of the Lone Nut side of the spectrum has little difference than does the "Far Left" side.

Both sides appear to have ignored the factual evidence and have thus branched off into totally unsupportable hypothesis's which are completely negated by the factual evidence.

So! One last discussion of the Final/Last/Third/Shot fired directly in front of James Altgens, and then this topic hopefully will revert back to it's criticism of the "Blinder" view of David Von Pein (or whomever he actually is)

Note: Would anyone who desires to post about Shot#3 kindly do so under that topic heading which I long ago started.

1. Just as you have confused those who know no better, in regards to the "Reverse Image" photograph of JFK's head, you have also done so with your postings as regards the purported "confusion" regarding survey distances.

As your source, you keep utilizing FBI information which in fact came from FBI Agent Gauthier and his playing with his "Tinker Toy" model of Dealy Plaza and at least highly impressing himself if no one else. (However, I must assume that it impressed you since you go on and on about it)

The ONLY accurate measurement data is that which was generated by the survey work of Mr. Robert West, from ON-SITE assassination re-enactments.

"Junk Measurements" from Gauthier's little Model, may hold up in one of the TV Courtrooms, but it is most unlikely that in this relatively well informed society, that a whole lot of persons (yourself excluded) would fall for and believe that it actually has anything to do with accuracy.

So, not unlike Gauthier, you can "play" with his junk measurements all day long if you so desire.

As to myself, I will stick with the Survey Plats as well as survey notes in my possession, which I personally received directly from Mr. West, and which I sat and disccussed with him on more than one occassion at his home in Dallas.

I am just "that kind of guy", in that I do prefer factual information as opposed to "best guess"!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit."

(Pat Speer)

Oh, really!

Well, I happen to have those survey plats which were generated for the US Secret Service as well as for the FBI assassination re-enactments, to include copies of the field survey notes generated to produce these surveys, which serve to indicate that you know even less than even I gave (lack of) credit for.

Considering that I long ago posted on this forum sufficient information relative to the Shot#3 location, to include James Altgens position relative to this shot impact, then just perhaps you should stick your head up out of the rabbit hole and look around you at times.

Quite obviously, you do not even understand simple math, without having seen those posted copies of the survey as well as the survey notes.

Z313 impact:---------------------Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Last/third shot impact:------------Stationing 4+95 (what was actually surveyed in and is actually plotted on the SS assassination re-enactment survey plat of 12/5/63 as well as the FBI assassination re-enactment survey plat of 2/7/64.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

------------------------------------------

Pat! You truly should visit your local institution of Higher Education/learning and study up on the methods for conducting proper research. And, although this most probably would not cause you to cease confusing yourself, at least it would hopefully cause you to cease confusing others with that lack of research.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

This, slightly suspicious frame, (no sprocket holes and "tinted) places JFK virtually 20-feet in direct line distance with that person standing on the curb in the background with the camera to his eye.

Who, amazingly, is James Altgens:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Pat! Were it that you actually knew anything, then you would also know that Mr. West also surveyed in each of the first three yellow curb marks, as well as having accurately platted them onto his survey plats.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z352.jpg

Now, would you like to take an educated "guess" as to what that yellow color on the street curb which is located just past Altgens position is?

(Hint): http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z299.jpg

It is the same stuff as that yellow color on the street curb located directly in front of the Hill/Moorman position.

================================================================================

"The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them. "

(Pat Speer)

Obviously you have read! Now, if only you could understand.

1. In event that Altgens never told either the SS or the FBI where he was standing, then exactly how was it that they resolved the impact location of the third shot??????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

================================================================================

Now Pat! As I long ago stated, that photo of James Altgens holding his camera to his eye was published in newspapers throughout the country within just a couple of days after the assassinatio, along with a story about him.

With the "Yellow Curb" mark, one does not even need suvey work to know exactly where James Altgens was standing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the Connnallys, they both implied the head shot at 313 was the last shot.

(Pat Speer)

Oh Really!

From everything that I have ever read that they stated, it was that they were hunkered down in the seat with JBC's head over in Nellie's lap at the time of the LAST SHOT impact which blew cerebral tissue all over them.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg

Try reading what both have to say on the subject matter, as I am quite tired of attempting to do your research for you.

It would be a full time job merely attempting to "unconfuse" Pat Speer, were I to undertake the task.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

"For a long time, I thought you were right, and believed that the surveys demonstrated that the FBI and SS thought there'd been a shot after the head shot. But then I checked the paper trail at maryferrell, and found memo after memo stating that Connally was hit by the second shot and that the last shot was the head shot at frame 313. I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose."

(Pat Speer)

Had you bothered to look up from your rabbit hole, then you just may have observed that I long ago posted that information relative to the impact location of the LAST shot, as determined by the SS as well as the FBI.

You keep attempting to resolve this based on FBI Agent Gauthier's tinker toy/model measurements and his attempts to impress with his little "Model".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SHOOTING SEQUENCE AS LOCATED ON THE SCALE MODEL

SHOT TWO:

It occurred approximately at the time Governor Connally was turning his head to the right. This point was established through the interpretation of the relative location of trees, shrubs, street lights, curbing, etc. appearing in the movie.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FBI Agent Leo Gauthier, from looking at the Z-film and playing with his tinker toy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose."[/i]

(Pat Speer)

Most likely, considering your demonstrated lack of understanding of most things, it does make little sense to you. Especially since you are attempting to resolve the issues of the assassination from "Reverse Imagery" photographs and the "tinker toy" measurements of FBI Agent Leo Gauthier who sat in a room with his little scale model and produced all kinds of measurments for us.

For me, it has become a relatively full time position in merely attempting to "un-confuse" what you continue to present as if fact.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

From:

alt. assassination. jfk

Now!

In event that one wishes to get to the 100 yard line (actually, it was 98 yards/aka 294 feet slope/slant distance from the sixth floor window)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film----

Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.

Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a frame where President Kennedy comes into full view after the motorcade turns left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0047b.htm

Anybody see James Altgens yet?

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg

Nope! Not here either!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z339.jpg

Guess who I see?

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------

P.S. That is Malcolm Summers diving to the ground behind Altgens.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now!

In event that one wishes to get to the 100 yard line (actually, it was 98 yards/aka 294 feet slope/slant distance from the sixth floor window)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film----

Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.

Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a frame where President Kennedy comes into full view after the motorcade turns left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0047b.htm

Anybody see James Altgens yet?

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg

Nope! Not here either!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z339.jpg

Guess who I see?

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------

P.S. That is Malcolm Summers diving to the ground behind Altgens.

"Well, then the car kept coming, and then the second shot rang out. And then the third was just about where I was at, rang out"

So, now I guess we know why Malcolm Summers was not called to testify before the Warren Commission.

______________________________________

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER - You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Is that approximately where you were standing?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0487a.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++

Get real there Liebeler!

Do you honestly expect me to fall for some claim that James Altgens was located at a point which placed him back up Elm St. so far that he would have been between the Jean Hill/Mary Moorman position and the TSDB?

When in fact, Altgens was located way down Elm St. almost across from the concrete steps/sidewalk which came down from the Stockade fence down to the street, just about where the "S" in Street is located.

===========================================================================

Nice try! However, this is not Mr. Von Parrothead that you are dealing with!

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

There is where James Altgens (& Malcolm Summers) were located. Right down Elm Street directly in front of survey station 4+95.

Just makes one wonder as to exactly how it was that the WC "lost" Altgens, especially since his position was shown in newspapers all over the country only a couple of days after the assassination.

[Pat Speer]

Altgens associated just one shot with the head shot. He heard no shots after the one at frame 313. Tom's pet theory, which relies on Altgens, is at odds with his statements. This, by itself, would not be fatal. But Tom also claims Connally was injured after the head shot at frame 313, by a shot fired from Oswald's rifle, even though blood can be seen at Connally's back wound location within 1 1/2 seconds of the head shot, and Connally (and just about everyone else for that matter) felt sure he was hit before the head shot at frame 313. As a consequence, it seems pretty clear Tom's just making stuff up to amuse himself.

James Altgens can be seen in Zapruder frame 345 just to the east of Malcolm Summers.

(11-22-63 eyewitness account, presented as an AP dispatch and found online) "There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car. Blood covered the whole left side of his head. Mrs. Kennedy saw what had happened to her husband. She grabbed him exclaiming, "Oh, No!". (11-22-63 announcement on WFAA that the President had been shot) “An Associated Press photographer, James Altgens…reports he saw blood on the President’s head. The AP man said he heard two shots but that he thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw blood on the President.” (11-22-63 AP report preceding the announcement of Kennedy's death and found in the Frederick Maryland News) "AP Photographer James W. Altgens said he saw blood on the President's head. Altgens said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. Altgens said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 news bulletin on WBAP, shortly after the AP report) "The Associated Press reports from Dallas that President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left the downtown section. Mrs. Kennedy is said to have jumped up and grabbed her husband and cried "Oh, no!" as the motorcade sped off. Photographer J.W. Altgens of the Associated Press said that he saw blood on the President's head. The photographer said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. He said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 AP dispatch, as reprinted in Cover-Up) “At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures...I did not know until later where the shots came from." (5-24-64 article in the New York Herald-Tribune) "I was about 30 feet in front of the President's limousine on Mrs. Kennedy's side. I remember hearing what I thought was a firecracker at the instant I snapped the picture. I was going to make another picture, the one I was really set up for, when I realized what had happened and I froze, aghast." (6-5-64 FBI report, CD 1088 p.1-6) “at about the instant he snapped the picture, he heard a burst of noise which he thought was firecrackers… he does not know how many of these reports he heard…After taking the above photograph…he heard another report which he recognized as a gunshot. He said the bullet struck President Kennedy on the right side of his head and the impact knocked the President forward. Altgens stated pieces of flesh, blood, and bones appeared to fly from the right side of the President’s head and pass in front of Mrs. Kennedy to the left of the Presidential limousine. Altgens stated Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and Altgens heard her exclaim “Oh, no!” as the president slumped into her lap. Altgens said he also observed blood on the left side of the President’s head and face.” (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H517-525) “I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker—I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot—the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much—of course—at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high velocity rifle…it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position—I mean the first shot, and being fireworks—who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn’t keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for number 1 and I can vouch for the last shot, but I can not tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot after the President was struck in the head.” (on the head shot) “up to that time I didn’t know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture I was hoping to make.”

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-26-67) “As I was getting ready to make some pictures why I heard this noise-- I thought it was a firecracker explosion—but I just went ahead and made the picture which shows the President right after he was struck by a bullet, struck in the neck, the first shot, and this was the picture that the Warren Report later fixed as being made two seconds after the shot was fired. And as they got in close to me, I was prepared to make the picture—I had my camera about at eye level—that’s when the President was shot in the head. And I do know that the President was still in an upright position, tilted, favoring Mrs. Kennedy. And at the time that he was struck by this blow to the head, it was so obvious that it came from behind. It had to come from behind because it caused him to bolt forward, dislodging him from this depression in the seat cushion, and already favoring Mrs. Kennedy, he automatically fell in that direction.” (No More Silence, p.41-59, published 1998) “I only recall the President hit once that I can vouch for because that first camera shot…made any definite conclusion uncertain. But this particular one where he was hit, the head shot, was obvious to everyone that it was a shooting, not fireworks. I don’t know how many shots there were. If I were guessing, I would figure that was probably the third shot. In other words, he was hit when I was taking the picture, and the fatal shot should have been somewhere around the third shot, and that should have been the last…The tissue, perhaps bone, a lot of fragments, all came my way…But the majority of the mass that was coming from his head came directly like a straight shot out my way on to the left in a straight line. When he fell over into her lap, the blood was on the left side of his face. There was no blood on the right hand side which suggested to me that the wound was more to the left than it was to the right.”

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Altgens associated just one shot with the head shot. He heard no shots after the one at frame 313. Tom's pet theory, which relies on Altgens, is at odds with his statements. This, by itself, would not be fatal. But Tom also claims Connally was injured after the head shot at frame 313, by a shot fired from Oswald's rifle, even though blood can be seen at Connally's back wound location within 1 1/2 seconds of the head shot, and Connally (and just about everyone else for that matter) felt sure he was hit before the head shot at frame 313. As a consequence, it seems pretty clear Tom's just making stuff up to amuse himself.

James Altgens can be seen in Zapruder frame 345 just to the east of Malcolm Summers.

(11-22-63 eyewitness account, presented as an AP dispatch and found online) "There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car. Blood covered the whole left side of his head. Mrs. Kennedy saw what had happened to her husband. She grabbed him exclaiming, "Oh, No!". (11-22-63 announcement on WFAA that the President had been shot) “An Associated Press photographer, James Altgens…reports he saw blood on the President’s head. The AP man said he heard two shots but that he thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw blood on the President.” (11-22-63 AP report preceding the announcement of Kennedy's death and found in the Frederick Maryland News) "AP Photographer James W. Altgens said he saw blood on the President's head. Altgens said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. Altgens said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 news bulletin on WBAP, shortly after the AP report) "The Associated Press reports from Dallas that President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left the downtown section. Mrs. Kennedy is said to have jumped up and grabbed her husband and cried "Oh, no!" as the motorcade sped off. Photographer J.W. Altgens of the Associated Press said that he saw blood on the President's head. The photographer said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. He said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 AP dispatch, as reprinted in Cover-Up) “At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures...I did not know until later where the shots came from." (5-24-64 article in the New York Herald-Tribune) "I was about 30 feet in front of the President's limousine on Mrs. Kennedy's side. I remember hearing what I thought was a firecracker at the instant I snapped the picture. I was going to make another picture, the one I was really set up for, when I realized what had happened and I froze, aghast." (6-5-64 FBI report, CD 1088 p.1-6) “at about the instant he snapped the picture, he heard a burst of noise which he thought was firecrackers… he does not know how many of these reports he heard…After taking the above photograph…he heard another report which he recognized as a gunshot. He said the bullet struck President Kennedy on the right side of his head and the impact knocked the President forward. Altgens stated pieces of flesh, blood, and bones appeared to fly from the right side of the President’s head and pass in front of Mrs. Kennedy to the left of the Presidential limousine. Altgens stated Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and Altgens heard her exclaim “Oh, no!” as the president slumped into her lap. Altgens said he also observed blood on the left side of the President’s head and face.” (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H517-525) “I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker—I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot—the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much—of course—at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high velocity rifle…it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position—I mean the first shot, and being fireworks—who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn’t keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for number 1 and I can vouch for the last shot, but I can not tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot after the President was struck in the head.” (on the head shot) “up to that time I didn’t know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture I was hoping to make.”

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-26-67) “As I was getting ready to make some pictures why I heard this noise-- I thought it was a firecracker explosion—but I just went ahead and made the picture which shows the President right after he was struck by a bullet, struck in the neck, the first shot, and this was the picture that the Warren Report later fixed as being made two seconds after the shot was fired. And as they got in close to me, I was prepared to make the picture—I had my camera about at eye level—that’s when the President was shot in the head. And I do know that the President was still in an upright position, tilted, favoring Mrs. Kennedy. And at the time that he was struck by this blow to the head, it was so obvious that it came from behind. It had to come from behind because it caused him to bolt forward, dislodging him from this depression in the seat cushion, and already favoring Mrs. Kennedy, he automatically fell in that direction.” (No More Silence, p.41-59, published 1998) “I only recall the President hit once that I can vouch for because that first camera shot…made any definite conclusion uncertain. But this particular one where he was hit, the head shot, was obvious to everyone that it was a shooting, not fireworks. I don’t know how many shots there were. If I were guessing, I would figure that was probably the third shot. In other words, he was hit when I was taking the picture, and the fatal shot should have been somewhere around the third shot, and that should have been the last…The tissue, perhaps bone, a lot of fragments, all came my way…But the majority of the mass that was coming from his head came directly like a straight shot out my way on to the left in a straight line. When he fell over into her lap, the blood was on the left side of his face. There was no blood on the right hand side which suggested to me that the wound was more to the left than it was to the right.”

==================================================================

Tom's just making stuff up to amuse himself.

Direct from Mr. Reverse Imagery/aka this is a photo of the back of the head himself.

---------------------------------------------------

This, by itself, would not be fatal.

Kindly either line up or give me the names of all those survivors who have been shot through the head with a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, who are still living.

I wish to be certain to eat and drink whatever they were raised on. Especially should I ever have to enter another War Zone.

That, This, by itself, would not be fatal. is borderline one of the most completely ignorant statements that I have ever heard.

------------------------------------------------

even though blood can be seen at Connally's back wound location within 1 1/2 seconds of the head shot,

You have got to be kidding on that statement!

------------------------------------------------

Altgens associated just one shot with the head shot.

Correct! The LAST shot if you would read what he repeatedly stated.

---------------------------------------------------

He heard no shots after the one at frame 313.

Did Altgens tell you that himself?

Here is what he had to say to the WC:

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. LIEBELER - Could you tell us approximately how many shots there were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I wouldn't want to say--I don't want to guess, because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot--I can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least one shot in between.

Mr. LIEBELER - At least one?

Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

---------------------------------------------

Tom's just making stuff up to amuse himself.

About the only amusement is in observing your complete lack of understanding of the relatively simple facts of the assassination.

Why not amaze us with another "Reverse Image" photograph?

How about some more of Leo Gauthier's tinker toy shot distance measurements to befound and befuddle?

Should we bring "EverReady" or "Die Hard" batteries when we dive off into your rabbit's den/aka the lair of the hare?

Move over rabbit, here we come again with Pat leading us!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

What a few persons forgot to inform you of:

http://www.americafirstcommittee.org/history.php

Founded September 4, 1940; Revived June 8, 1980

Who founded America First?

The founders of the America First Committee were chiefly, General Robert E. Wood, then chairman of the Board of Sears Roebuck & Co., and R. Douglas Stewart Jr., Son of the Vice President of the Quaker Oats Co.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.laobserved.com/archive/002222.html

"For America," a spin-off of the America First Committee, was formed in 1954, and run by some of the leading WW II "isolationists." One of the organization's leading lights was Colonel Robert McCormick, publisher of the Chicago Tribune. The chairman of For America was Clarence Manion, formerly dean of law at Notre Dame University. Robert Wood, then head of Sears, Roebuck, was a blustering propagandist for the bund. The stated aim of For America was the support of political candidates sympathetic to the Nazi cause.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?_FOR_AMERICA_

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Name: FOR AMERICA

Type Entity: Non-Profit Corporation or Co-op (Non-Louisiana)

Status: Not Active (Action by Secretary of State)

Mailing Address: 208 S LASALLE ST, CHICAGO, IL 60604

Domicile Address: 208 S LASALLE ST, CHICAGO, IL 60604

Principal Office: 208 S LASALLE ST, CHICAGO, IL 60604

Principal Bus. Est. in Louisiana:

Qualified: 07/14/1954

Registered Agent (Appointed 7/14/1954): CHARLES E. DUNBAR, JR., 321 ST. CHARLES, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Registered Agent (Appointed 7/14/1954): SUMTER D. MARKS, JR., 321 ST CHARLES, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Registered Agent (Appointed 7/14/1954): LOUIS B. CLAVERIE, 321 ST. CHARLES, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

321 St. Charles, New Orleans, LA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsgatguat.html

After leaving the FBI offices, BARRIOS and GATLIN met with a Mr. DUNBAR, who occasionally represents the United Fruit Co. in New Orleans. They asked for one million dollars from the United Fruit Co., in support of BARRIOS' intended revolutionary movement in Guatemala, but they were unsuccessful in obtaining any commitment.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One should not completely overlook the names "Marks" as well as "Claverie" in event that they want answers to this puzzle.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...e296871050f94ed

Yep! Completely delusional!

Now that we have resolved that, were you going to, for the enjoyment of the reading public, attempt to explain exactly why it was that the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, (along with multiple witnesses) so infomed us that the third/last/final shot impact was some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than the WC's purported last shot at the Z313 impact?

WC Last shot fired:--Z313------Survey Stationing 4+65.3

US Secret Service & FBI Last shot fired: Directly in front of James Altgens position:--Survey Stationing 4+95 (what was actually surveyed in).

About 30-feet difference there "Parrothead".

Inquiring minds would no doubt appreciate "your" explanation of that one.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Z313/aka 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

Last shot fired: Stationing 4+95

=========================================

P.S. Were you also going to get around to an explanation of the SECOND bullet hole in the back of JFK coat?

The one which entered just below the bottom edge of the collar and penetrated completely through the coat and liner on an oblique angle.

Now! Did JFK have his coat pulled up completely over his head at any point as seen in the Z-film???????

Not that I see!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them.

As far as the Connnallys, they both implied the head shot at 313 was the last shot. For the FBI and the mainstream press, that was game, point, match. Connally says Kennedy was hit before him, and that he was hit by the second, and that the third hit Kennedy in the head. Okie-doke. He's the President's buddy. And a national hero. They ignored the statements of everyone else after that.

For a long time, I thought you were right, and believed that the surveys demonstrated that the FBI and SS thought there'd been a shot after the head shot. But then I checked the paper trail at maryferrell, and found memo after memo stating that Connally was hit by the second shot and that the last shot was the head shot at frame 313. I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose.

"You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them."

Actually! For the most part I dismiss anything which Gauthier has to say as he was an integral part of the "SCAM"!

================================================================================

Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor, a licensed State land surveyor, located at 160 County Courthouse, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the tracing of that survey with you today?

Mr. GAUTHIER. I have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you brought a cardboard reproduction of that?

Mr. GAUTHIER. A copy made from the tracing; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the cardboard copy made from the tracing for the inspection of the Commission at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container.

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, we will mark the tracing Commission Exhibit No. 882, and not take it out, since the cardboard represents it, and place Commission Exhibit No. 883 on the cardboard drawing itself, and I would like to move for the admission into evidence of both Exhibits Nos. 882 and 883.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a schedule which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 884 and ask you what figures are contained thereon.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 884 for identification.)

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map.

It contains certain positions marked as frame numbers. It indicates elevations and a column dealing with angle of sight from the frame positions to the window and to a horizontal line.

It also contains angels of sight the degree of sight and distances from these positions to a point on the top of the bridge, handrail height.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, that concludes the description of the general setting.

I would like to move now at this time for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 884, which completes all of the exhibits used heretofore.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

===============================================================================

A. It ain't an "exact duplication", irrelevant as to whether it is on carboard or toilet tissue!

B. It ain't "a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map" since there are several forged

changes relative to what was actually surveyed.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0449a.htm

Which "mark" at survey stationing 4+95 (what was actually surveyed in) placed the impact location for the third shot fired

as having been directly in front of James Altgens location.

So, with the Z313 impact blowing the top of JFK's head off, and most certainly being easily observed in the Z-film, then

exactly how is it that you are of the impression that the SS knew exactly where impact of the last shot occurred, as well

as having managed to re-create photographic evidence which clearly demonstrates that they knew exactly where

Altgens was located when they did their re-enactment survey work?

Now! Recognizing that I am just an ole backwoods country boy, I nevertheless give considerable preference to the SS's photo's as taken from the Altgens position/location, as opposed to those in which the FBI pulled the wool over a lot of

person's eyes.

P.S. One did not even have to speak with James Altgens to know his EXACT location. Since he was standing exactly 5-feet

from the second yellow curb mark and was standing EXACTLY at a construction joint in the concrete street curb.

Which sort of makes one wonder:

A. Exactly why the FBI/WC with all of their great talent, made such a "bust".

B. Exactly why those who claim to be "researchers", had not long ago pointed out this little "slight"/sleight-of-hand" maneuver.

Lastly! Just for your information again! The SS survey plat of December 5, 1963, as well as the FBI survey plat of 2/7/64, both place the third/last/final shot impact point as being located at survey stationing 4+95, which so happens to be directly in front of James Altgens position.

Guess that they were both wrong, and the ever-so-believeable WC told us the truth, huh?

DUH!

[David G. Healy]

Tom,

You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them.

As far as the Connnallys, they both implied the head shot at 313 was the last shot. For the FBI and the mainstream press, that was game, point, match. Connally says Kennedy was hit before him, and that he was hit by the second, and that the third hit Kennedy in the head. Okie-doke. He's the President's buddy. And a national hero. They ignored the statements of everyone else after that.

For a long time, I thought you were right, and believed that the surveys demonstrated that the FBI and SS thought there'd been a shot after the head shot. But then I checked the paper trail at maryferrell, and found memo after memo stating that Connally was hit by the second shot and that the last shot was the head shot at frame 313. I agree this makes little sense. Unless the FBI and SS were total incompetents unconcerned with establishing Kennedy's actual position OR deliberately stretching out the shooting scenario for some dishonest purpose.

"You dismiss Gauthier's relevance by saying he was a tinker-toy specialist. You are right about his being a tinker-toy specialist. Which is the point. This was how the FBI re-enacted crime scenes in 1963. Your assertion that the early surveys accurately depicted the location for the head shot, and had placed it out in front of James Altgens' position, is without merit. The FBI never spoke to Altgens until months after the shooting, and then only at the request of the WC. The SS never spoke to him. Even if he said there were two head shots--which he most certainly did not--he never told it to them."

Actually! For the most part I dismiss anything which Gauthier has to say as he was an integral part of the "SCAM"!

================================================================================

Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor, a licensed State land surveyor, located at 160 County Courthouse, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the tracing of that survey with you today?

Mr. GAUTHIER. I have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you brought a cardboard reproduction of that?

Mr. GAUTHIER. A copy made from the tracing; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the cardboard copy made from the tracing for the inspection of the Commission at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container.

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, we will mark the tracing Commission Exhibit No. 882, and not take it out, since the cardboard represents it, and place Commission Exhibit No. 883 on the cardboard drawing itself, and I would like to move for the admission into evidence of both Exhibits Nos. 882 and 883.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a schedule which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 884 and ask you what figures are contained thereon.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 884 for identification.)

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map.

It contains certain positions marked as frame numbers. It indicates elevations and a column dealing with angle of sight from the frame positions to the window and to a horizontal line.

It also contains angels of sight the degree of sight and distances from these positions to a point on the top of the bridge, handrail height.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, that concludes the description of the general setting.

I would like to move now at this time for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 884, which completes all of the exhibits used heretofore.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

===============================================================================

A. It ain't an "exact duplication", irrelevant as to whether it is on carboard or toilet tissue!

B. It ain't "a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map" since there are several forged

changes relative to what was actually surveyed.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0449a.htm

Which "mark" at survey stationing 4+95 (what was actually surveyed in) placed the impact location for the third shot fired

as having been directly in front of James Altgens location.

So, with the Z313 impact blowing the top of JFK's head off, and most certainly being easily observed in the Z-film, then

exactly how is it that you are of the impression that the SS knew exactly where impact of the last shot occurred, as well

as having managed to re-create photographic evidence which clearly demonstrates that they knew exactly where

Altgens was located when they did their re-enactment survey work?

Now! Recognizing that I am just an ole backwoods country boy, I nevertheless give considerable preference to the SS's photo's as taken from the Altgens position/location, as opposed to those in which the FBI pulled the wool over a lot of

person's eyes.

P.S. One did not even have to speak with James Altgens to know his EXACT location. Since he was standing exactly 5-feet

from the second yellow curb mark and was standing EXACTLY at a construction joint in the concrete street curb.

Which sort of makes one wonder:

A. Exactly why the FBI/WC with all of their great talent, made such a "bust".

B. Exactly why those who claim to be "researchers", had not long ago pointed out this little "slight"/sleight-of-hand" maneuver.

Lastly! Just for your information again! The SS survey plat of December 5, 1963, as well as the FBI survey plat of 2/7/64, both place the third/last/final shot impact point as being located at survey stationing 4+95, which so happens to be directly in front of James Altgens position.

Guess that they were both wrong, and the ever-so-believeable WC told us the truth, huh?

DUH!

resistence to the possibilty of Zapruder film alteration runs deep, VERY deep. As for the "old country boy" moniker, everytime I hear that phrase I think of Sgt. gobble-gobble York, WW1 fame....