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Christopher Hall
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This is an article by E. J. Dionne about Joe Biden's law school plagiarism episode:

And didn't he go through a phase when he wet the bed as a kid?

But why has Sarah Palin or John McCain refused to release THEIR law school transcripts, or details of how either of them did on the Bar Exam?

Raymond-

I would think that you wouldn't need to be a law school grad to appreciate the magnitude of plagiarism, but it is a serious matter and reflects on one's character and integrity.

Plagiarism is a form of cheating.

Apparently, the Syracuse University School of Law faculty considered it to be a larger problem than you do.

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This is an article by E. J. Dionne about Joe Biden's law school plagiarism episode:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75AC0A961948260

To paraphrase Andrew Sullivan, the money quotes are:

''My intent was not to deceive anyone"...."For if it were, I would not have been so blatant.''

At another point, the young Mr. Biden said that ''if I had intended to cheat, would I have been so stupid?''

This, and his borrowing from another person's speech without attribution, led to his decision to withdraw from the 1988 Presidential race.

This is all petty ante and pretty old. The plagiarism occurred 43 years ago. If you have to go that far back to find such piddling dirt on him he is pretty clean, according to the Times "Mr. Biden's professor today played down the incident of plagiarism." his punishment was failing the class but having it stricken from his record so they did not seem to have taken it that seriously at the time.

As for lifting lines from speeches this relatively common, people don't footnote speeches. Many pols have entire speeches written by writers whom they don't identify.

As for his son there was no documentation for the claims however the blog entry did say that he passed the Maryland Bar exam on his 1st try and was promoted after 2 years in a less prestigious job at the same DOJ office. So unless someone can show he didn't a good job in his 1st post there is little basis for speculation his dad pulled strings for him.

Edited by Len Colby
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This is an article by E. J. Dionne about Joe Biden's law school plagiarism episode:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75AC0A961948260

To paraphrase Andrew Sullivan, the money quotes are:

''My intent was not to deceive anyone"...."For if it were, I would not have been so blatant.''

At another point, the young Mr. Biden said that ''if I had intended to cheat, would I have been so stupid?''

This, and his borrowing from another person's speech without attribution, led to his decision to withdraw from the 1988 Presidential race.

Tis all seems petty ante and pretty old the plagiarism occurred 43 years ago. If you have to go that far back to find such piddling dirt on him he is pretty clean according to the Times "Mr. Biden's professor today played down the incident of plagiarism." his punishment was failing the class but having it stricken from his record so they did not sem to have taken it tahat seriously at the time.

As for lifting lines from speeches this relatively common, people don't footnote speeches. Many pols have entire speeches written by writers whom they don't identify.

As for his son there was no documentation for the claims however the blog entry did say that he passed the Maryland Bar exam on his 1st try and was promoted after 2 years in a less prestigious job at the same DOJ office. So unless someone can show he didn't a good job in his 1st post there is little basis for speculation his dad pulled strings for him.

Len-

I have tried to stick with linking posts and, for the most part, not commenting on Biden.

Actually, plagiarism is a big deal, and apparently was at the time of Biden's infraction.

I don't think that he would do it again, and I think that he learned his lesson.

As for lifting lines from speeches, I agree that it is pretty commonplace and, as a result, is a venial sin at most. I don't think that I even mentioned it in my post.

As for flunking the Bar exam 3 times (particularly for someone who is an Ivy League School grad), it is indicative of someone who has probably chosen the wrong field or profession.

If Biden's son flunked the Bar exam 3 times and still got a high paying government job, it was very likely as a result of his last name.

(Update) Len-

This story confirms the Bar exam failure matter:

http://delawarewatch.blogspot.com/2006/10/...oes-matter.html

As an aside, I wonder how much the people at MBNA contributed to Beau's campaign for Delaware Attorney General.

It would be interesting to see how much.

Edited by Christopher Hall
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Apparently, the Syracuse University School of Law faculty considered it to be a larger problem than you do.

But an even larger problem is that Sarah Palin would be unlikely to even qualify for admission to Syracuse Law School.

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Len-

I have tried to stick with linking posts and, for the most part, not commenting on Biden.

Actually, plagiarism is a big deal, and apparently was at the time of Biden's infraction.

Yes but depends on the details, the school gave him a reletively mild punishment at the time and his prof said it wasn't a big deal. If that's the worst thing he's done in 43 years he's one of the cleanest pols in he US

As for lifting lines from speeches, I agree that it is pretty commonplace and, as a result, is a venial sin at most. I don't think that I even mentioned it in my post.

You wrote: “This, and his borrowing from another person's speech without attribution, led to his decision to withdraw from the 1988 Presidential race “ It turns out that he did give credit to the author on several other occasions. Do you agree that using speech written by "ghost writer" is worse?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200808230003

As for flunking the Bar exam 3 times (particularly for someone who is an Ivy League School grad), it is indicative of someone who has probably chosen the wrong field or profession.

If Biden's son flunked the Bar exam 3 times and still got a high paying government job, it was very likely as a result of his last name.

(Update) Len-

This story confirms the Bar exam failure matter:

http://delawarewatch.blogspot.com/2006/10/...oes-matter.html

Actually Assistant United States Attorney is not an especially high status or pay position. Although apparently in Biden’s time it was a 2 tier job currently all lawyers at United States Attorney's Offices (other than higher level attorneys) are given the title AUSA*. The Philly office has“134 Assistant United States Attorneys (AUSAs) currently on staff”**. The range of basic pay is $42,684 to $125,938 plus 20.14% locality pay”***, that comes out to $ 51,221 – 151,126. Presumably Biden’s pay was towards the bottom of the scale because “Assistant United States Attorneys’ pay is administratively determined based, in part, on the number of years of professional attorney experience.”***

$ 55,000 or so is pretty meager for a lawyer in a major city and is not much more than a the $ 42 K starting pay for a cop in the same city*4 and is below the nationwide average even for lawyer with less than 1 year experience*5 (Biden had over 2). You’d think if Biden Sr. used his considerable political muscle to get his son a job it would be to get him one where he would get paid less than lawyers with similar levels of experience.

It should be noted that Biden (jr) did pass the Maryland Bar Exam on his first try and presumably passed the Federal Bar exam so he’s not that much of a dolt. Being able to practice law in Delaware state courts would not be relevant to lawyer whose job would only entail working in Pennsylvania Federal Courts. Even a supporter of his opponent said his failure has irrelevant to his opponent said this was irrelevant to his attempt to get elected Delaware AG.

“I’ve seen many good prosecutors who have failed the bar on a couple of occasions,’’ said Wilmington attorney Jeffrey K. Martin, a Republican supporter of Wharton. “I really don’t think it’s a reflection of one’s legal abilities. ... Much of it is pure cramming and rote memory.’’

But I agree he is probably only the Democratic nominee because of his dad. But from getting into Yale to being elected governor all of Bush’s opportunities during his adult life were due to his dad and McCain became a pilot because of his dad etc, etc.

Also Syracuse is not Ivy Leauge.

* At least in the Philly and DC offices

** http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/pae/about.html

*** http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/pae/ausa_web_ad_01_2008.pdf

*4 http://www.ppdonline.org/career/career_benefits.php

*5 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=At...f_Lawyer/Salary

As an aside, I wonder how much the people at MBNA contributed to Beau's campaign for Delaware Attorney General.

It would be interesting to see how much.

What is MBNA?

Edited by Len Colby
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Apparently, the Syracuse University School of Law faculty considered it to be a larger problem than you do.

But an even larger problem is that Sarah Palin would be unlikely to even qualify for admission to Syracuse Law School.

Raymond-

This thread is about Joe Biden.

The forum has a separate thread for trashing Sarah Palin.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13400

Chris

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Len-

I have tried to stick with linking posts and, for the most part, not commenting on Biden.

Actually, plagiarism is a big deal, and apparently was at the time of Biden's infraction.

Yes but depends on the details, the school gave him a reletively mild punishment at the time and his prof said it wasn't a big deal. If that's the worst thing he's done in 43 years he's one of the cleanest pols in he US

Receiving an F, with the opportunity to correct it, is a big deal. Whether that is the worst thing he has done is a cummulative assessment that one has to make by looking at his entire career.

As for lifting lines from speeches, I agree that it is pretty commonplace and, as a result, is a venial sin at most. I don't think that I even mentioned it in my post.

You wrote: “This, and his borrowing from another person's speech without attribution, led to his decision to withdraw from the 1988 Presidential race “ It turns out that he did give credit to the author on several other occasions. This assertion is correct, Len. I followed that election closely at the time. Why do you think he dropped out of the race on the heels of such disclosures? Do you agree that using speech written by "ghost writer" is worse? What are you talking about. Virtually everyone uses speechwriters.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200808230003

As for flunking the Bar exam 3 times (particularly for someone who is an Ivy League School grad), it is indicative of someone who has probably chosen the wrong field or profession.

If Biden's son flunked the Bar exam 3 times and still got a high paying government job, it was very likely as a result of his last name.

(Update) Len-

This story confirms the Bar exam failure matter:

http://delawarewatch.blogspot.com/2006/10/...oes-matter.html

Actually Assistant United States Attorney is not an especially high status or pay position. Although apparently in Biden’s time it was a 2 tier job currently all lawyers at United States Attorney's Offices (other than higher level attorneys) are given the title AUSA*. The Philly office has“134 Assistant United States Attorneys (AUSAs) currently on staff”**. The range of basic pay is $42,684 to $125,938 plus 20.14% locality pay”***, that comes out to $ 51,221 – 151,126. Presumably Biden’s pay was towards the bottom of the scale because “Assistant United States Attorneys’ pay is administratively determined based, in part, on the number of years of professional attorney experience.”***

$ 55,000 or so is pretty meager for a lawyer in a major city and is not much more than a the $ 42 K starting pay for a cop in the same city*4 and is below the nationwide average even for lawyer with less than 1 year experience*5 (Biden had over 2). You’d think if Biden Sr. used his considerable political muscle to get his son a job it would be to get him one where he would get paid less than lawyers with similar levels of experience. The problem is that decent firms don't hire lawyers who flunked the Bar exam 3 times. In many cases, flunking it once is enough to get someone fired. Biden, Jr. was damaged goods and having his last name appears to have gotten him a job. I wonder how many other assistant US attorneys there are who flunked the Bar exam 3 times and have no political influence.

It should be noted that Biden (jr) did pass the Maryland Bar Exam on his first try and presumably passed the Federal Bar exam so he’s not that much of a dolt. I disagree. Being able to practice law in Delaware state courts would not be relevant to lawyer whose job would only entail working in Pennsylvania Federal Courts. Even a supporter of his opponent said his failure has irrelevant to his opponent said this was irrelevant to his attempt to get elected Delaware AG.

“I’ve seen many good prosecutors who have failed the bar on a couple of occasions,’’ said Wilmington attorney Jeffrey K. Martin, a Republican supporter of Wharton. “I really don’t think it’s a reflection of one’s legal abilities. ... Much of it is pure cramming and rote memory.’’ I wonder how many lawyers his firm has who flunked the Bar exam 3 times.

But I agree he is probably only the Democratic nominee because of his dad. But from getting into Yale to being elected governor all of Bush’s opportunities during his adult life were due to his dad and McCain became a pilot because of his dad etc, etc.

Also Syracuse is not Ivy Leauge. I didn't say he graduated from an Ivy League Law School. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, which is an Ivey League school.

* At least in the Philly and DC offices

** http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/pae/about.html

*** http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/pae/ausa_web_ad_01_2008.pdf

*4 http://www.ppdonline.org/career/career_benefits.php

*5 http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=At...f_Lawyer/Salary

As an aside, I wonder how much the people at MBNA contributed to Beau's campaign for Delaware Attorney General.

It would be interesting to see how much.

What is MBNA? MBNA America Bank, N.A. It is the largest issuer of credit cards in the world.

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Raymond-

This thread is about Joe Biden.

The forum has a separate thread for trashing Sarah Palin.

Chris

If the moderators rule that it is verboten to mention Saucy Sarah on the Biden thread, then I will cease and desist from mentioning Sarah's obvious lack of qualifications when compared to Biden.

If I am not allowed to point out on this thread how unqualified Sarah is, is it OK if I mention on the Palin thread how much more qualified Biden is?

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Raymond-

This thread is about Joe Biden.

The forum has a separate thread for trashing Sarah Palin.

Chris

If the moderators rule that it is verboten to mention Saucy Sarah on the Biden thread, then I will cease and desist from mentioning Sarah's obvious lack of qualifications when compared to Biden.

If I am not allowed to point out on this thread how unqualified Sarah is, is it OK if I mention on the Palin thread how much more qualified Biden is?

Raymond-

I was, for the most part, using your post about Palin on the Biden thread to mildly kid you about this matter. Your comment was, of course, not out of line.

No harm intended.

But I would rather see comments on each candidate on his or her respective thread.

I know that it is hard to resist making retorts about the other candidate, because I have refrained from doing so; but, I think it's best to segregate the comments, links, etc. about each candidate.

Chris

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Raymond-

This thread is about Joe Biden.

The forum has a separate thread for trashing Sarah Palin.

Chris

If the moderators rule that it is verboten to mention Saucy Sarah on the Biden thread, then I will cease and desist from mentioning Sarah's obvious lack of qualifications when compared to Biden.

If I am not allowed to point out on this thread how unqualified Sarah is, is it OK if I mention on the Palin thread how much more qualified Biden is?

Raymond-

I was, for the most part, using your post about Palin on the Biden thread to mildly kid you about this matter. Your comment was, of course, not out of line.

No harm intended.

But I would rather see comments on each candidate on his or her respective thread.

I know that it is hard to resist making retorts about the other candidate, because I have refrained from doing so; but, I think it's best to segregate the comments, links, etc. about each candidate.

Chris

"...mildly kid..."? Some would call that, elitist-dancing...

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Len-

I have tried to stick with linking posts and, for the most part, not commenting on Biden.

Actually, plagiarism is a big deal, and apparently was at the time of Biden's infraction.

Yes but depends on the details, the school gave him a reletively mild punishment at the time and his prof said it wasn't a big deal. If that's the worst thing he's done in 43 years he's one of the cleanest pols in he US

Receiving an F, with the opportunity to correct it, is a big deal. Whether that is the worst thing he has done is a cummulative assessment that one has to make by looking at his entire career.

And off the record F with a chance to correct is pretty mild, they could have given him the boot or suspended him or left the F on his record or not allowed him to correct it. Seeking the presidential nomination (which de did twice) and being nominated for VP subjects a person to extreme scrutiny. I haven’t heard other serious charges against him.

As for lifting lines from speeches, I agree that it is pretty commonplace and, as a result, is a venial sin at most. I don't think that I even mentioned it in my post.

You wrote: “This, and his borrowing from another person's speech without attribution, led to his decision to withdraw from the 1988 Presidential race “ It turns out that he did give credit to the author on several other occasions. This assertion is correct, Len. I followed that election closely at the time. Why do you think he dropped out of the race on the heels of such disclosures?

I mentioned that in response to you comment that you didn’t (think you’d) mentioned it. So he paraphrased the guy several times and forgot or neglected to give him credit twice, raising such objections is pretty nit picky, especially when pols commonly use entire speeches written by others without attribution but you were correct that this seems to be the reason he pulled out of the race.

Do you agree that using speech written by "ghost writer" is worse?

What are you talking about. Virtually everyone uses speechwriters.

So which is worse using a few lines written by someone else and not giving them credit 2 out of several times you quote them or giving entire speeches written by someone else without attribution?

Actually Assistant United States Attorney is not an especially high status or pay position. Although apparently in Biden’s time it was a 2 tier job currently all lawyers at United States Attorney's Offices (other than higher level attorneys) are given the title AUSA*. The Philly office has“134 Assistant United States Attorneys (AUSAs) currently on staff”**. The range of basic pay is $42,684 to $125,938 plus 20.14% locality pay”***, that comes out to $ 51,221 – 151,126. Presumably Biden’s pay was towards the bottom of the scale because “Assistant United States Attorneys’ pay is administratively determined based, in part, on the number of years of professional attorney experience.”***

$ 55,000 or so is pretty meager for a lawyer in a major city and is not much more than a the $ 42 K starting pay for a cop in the same city*4 and is below the nationwide average even for lawyer with less than 1 year experience*5 (Biden had over 2). You’d think if Biden Sr. used his considerable political muscle to get his son a job it would be to get him one where he would get paid less than lawyers with similar levels of experience.

The problem is that decent firms don't hire lawyers who flunked the Bar exam 3 times. In many cases, flunking it once is enough to get someone fired. Biden, Jr. was damaged goods and having his last name appears to have gotten him a job. I wonder how many other assistant US attorneys there are who flunked the Bar exam 3 times and have no political influence.

But he was still earning several K below an average 1st year law school graduate makes nationwide and about 15 K below the average for someone 3 years out of law school, presumably the average in Philly is even higher. That’s average not top firms. 1st year lawyers at top firms make "$160,000 plus an annual bonus"

http://abajournal.com/news/attorneys_strug...nds_meet/print/

He had worked a lower level position 2 year, his performance could have been a factor.

It should be noted that Biden (jr) did pass the Maryland Bar Exam on his first try and presumably passed the Federal Bar exam so he’s not that much of a dolt. I disagree.

A Republican Delaware lawyer who supported his opponent seems to agree with my position.

Even a supporter of his opponent said his failure has irrelevant to his opponent said this was irrelevant to his attempt to get elected Delaware AG.

“I’ve seen many good prosecutors who have failed the bar on a couple of occasions,’’ said Wilmington attorney Jeffrey K. Martin, a Republican supporter of Wharton. “I really don’t think it’s a reflection of one’s legal abilities. ... Much of it is pure cramming and rote memory.’’ I wonder how many lawyers his firm has who flunked the Bar exam 3 times.

I have no idea, if he were a Democrat who supported Biden his comments would be suspect, why would a Republican who backed his opponent say this unless he meant it?

Edited by Len Colby
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Also Syracuse is not Ivy League. I didn't say he graduated from an Ivy League Law School. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, which is an Ivey League school.

Sorry I misunderstood you but where someone got there law degree is more relevant to there legal abilities than where they got their BA

As an aside, I wonder how much the people at MBNA contributed to Beau's campaign for Delaware Attorney General.

It would be interesting to see how much.

What is MBNA? MBNA America Bank, N.A. It is the largest issuer of credit cards in the world.

Did they give money to Beau? Serious candidates for any post higher than dog catcher who don't get significant contributions from big business are few and far between

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This is an interesting article from across the pond:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/comme...den-946127.html

Len-

You are comparing salaries for top firms in 2008 with what a young lawyer, who flunked the Bar exam 3 times, made quite a few years earlier.

There is no market for lawyers who flunk the Bar exam 3 times, because virtually no one wants to hire them as associate attorneys.

Thus, it's hard to do a market comparison for someone whom no one wants to hire.

Lawyers who flunk the Bar exam more than once tend to go out on their own and, at least early on, not do nearly as well financially as a government lawyer.

Like I said, ask your friend how many lawyers in his firm have flunked the Bar exam 3 times.

Chris

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Like I said, ask your friend how many lawyers in his firm have flunked the Bar exam 3 times.

Chris

Nice little red herring, this piece of trivia about someone who isn't on the ticket.

Like I said, supporters of McCain/Palin would be wise to say as little as possible about law degrees and Bar exams, considering that neither of the republican candidates, as far as we know, has ever even passed a law school admission test.

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