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Interesting character


Lee Forman
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Anyone have an idea who this guy is? It would appear that there would have been some kind of report concerning this individual, given the interest by the cops.

Groden has it that this is another rifle which was taken from the TSBD - not sure what his source is for this statement.

From the Sixth Floor museum:

Color slide taken by Jay Skaggs from the east side of Houston Street looking northwest. This picture shows a police officer with a shotgun and someone else talking with a dark-complexioned man with a moustache and wearing a beret. Skaggs remembers the man had just arrived from somewhere north of where they were standing.

Date

1963-11-22

In the DCA film it looks as if that could be Jay Skaggs taking the photo - slide 17. In which case, this gun is simply one of the DPD guys holding a shotgun.

In any case - it's the individual in the plaid shirt that I find interesting. Anyone know more about him?

- lee

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Sounds as if the answer is a resounding 'NO.'

I am satisfied that the 'rifle' seen is a DPD shotgun, and I also feel pretty strongly that the man seen at the left taking a photo in the DCA film is none other than Jay Skaggs.

Someone pointed out to me that this individual has some serious scars on his neck - I would imagine that this would be helpful in identification. Perhaps he is simply a witness - he certainly appears to have the interest of the police.

Thanks to Sean Murphy who did a nice job on the spot for the plaid shirt man on the grass in Cancellare.

- lee

As always - if someone wants to be anonymous - send me an email to lforman23@comcast.net - something is with this guy and I would like to know what.

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Edited by Lee Forman
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30 MC Mentesana, 6 0 L. Florer under arrest at Houston & Elm

31 MC " 1 Top of TSBD - 2 cops on 7th floor fire

escape

32 MC " 2 Houston St. between TSBD and Dal Tex

- Rifle being examined

Incorrect. Man in plaid shirt, jacket and beret being questioned. 'Rifle' is DPD shotgun, being held at rest in crook of cop's arm. Angle of footage taken by Mentesana appears to have mislead a few folks, which is why it is important to couple it with the photo taken by Skaggs. No 'rifle' is being examined in this footage.

- lee

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It would appear that I am taking exception with yet another myth - that of a 2nd rifle which was photographed in Dealey Plaza - having been discovered on the rooftop of the TSBD and carried down the fire escape and examined at street level. This apears to have also been the position of Robert Groden and Jim Garrison - unless someone is able to provide a photo or frame proving otherwise - there is no record of any other weapon having been recovered at the scene of the crime other than a Mannlicher Carcano.

Sean Murphy has outdone himself again, and has located the Plaidshirt man in the railroad yards in the back parking lot. Kudos Sean and many thanks.

Taking it one step further - if anyone can produce a photo of any Mauser with the name and caliber stamped on the barrel - I would be very interested in seeing it. Aside from Craig - whom I tend to believe - Seymour Weitzmann would know his guns - except he probably wasn't selling crap like the Mannlicher to anyone. All of the Mausers I examined had a specific mark - or a Mauser emblem embossed on the action - and/or a MODEL NUMBER. In which case - I wonder if the first accounts provided were all mistaken - the actual shooting weapon having been removed from the building well in advance of the reinacted discovery filmed of Carl Day 'discovering' the MC - with a DPD shotgun underneath him.

DPD shotgun - seen outside the TSBD.

DPD shotgun - seen below Carl Day as he 'found' the MC.

What I am left with, is that the recent account provided by an elderly lady - about a man banging out the back door of the TSBD - expecting a getaway car - finding none, running towards the train tracks - possibly seen by JC Price - most likely seen by Worrell, and reported to the Police later as a man running along the tracks with a rifle - highly probable. Yes - I like it.

Only one weapon ever found - despite Sam Pate's claim - and despite folks misinterpretation of the events portrayed in the DCA film - and the mistake made by Weitzman and Craig - one planted weapon, which in all probability never fired one of the shots of consequence. And as per Dorsch - fingerprints were lifted from this weapon as per Alea - and this has escaped the light of day.

So who is this individual in the parking lot - with his jacket, beret and plaid shirt - whom I once pointed out as an individual of interest a few years ago - based upon the description provided by Ed Hoffman - seen here and there about the plaza that day?

Feel free to post if you'd like - or you can always take the low road = lforman23@comcast.net.

- lee

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Lee,

Just to clarify here, Plaid Shirt Man watches the motorcade from somewhere on Houston, maybe Main. After the shooting he wanders across the grass area of Dealey Plaza, strolls around the parking lot for a bit then ends up in a conversation with DPD personnel in front of the TSBD? Or, does he mingle with the cops before heading off to the parking lot?

Just curious.

James

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Sounds as if the answer is a resounding 'NO.'

I am satisfied that the 'rifle' seen is a DPD shotgun, and I also feel pretty strongly that the man seen at the left taking a photo in the DCA film is none other than Jay Skaggs.

Someone pointed out to me that this individual has some serious scars on his neck - I would imagine that this would be helpful in identification. Perhaps he is simply a witness - he certainly appears to have the interest of the police.

Thanks to Sean Murphy who did a nice job on the spot for the plaid shirt man on the grass in Cancellare.

- lee

As always - if someone wants to be anonymous - send me an email to lforman23@comcast.net - something is with this guy and I would like to know what.

Lee, what causes those very strange, even suspiciously phony(?!) shadows on the man's face?! Very strange, indeed....

His attire does seem to match in all of the posted photos... white pants, dark jacket with a plaid shirt and wearing a beret.

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"Aside from Craig - whom I tend to believe"

Lee.

I was considering a post of whether the members of the forum believed Roger Craig or not. I, after having watched him being interviewed (and using a layman's ability at studying facial expressions) also "tend" to believe him. As for the man wearing the plaid shirt, he certainly looks like the "odd man out" with his beret in cowboy country.

Terry

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Lee,

Just to clarify here, Plaid Shirt Man watches the motorcade from somewhere on Houston, maybe Main. After the shooting he wanders across the grass area of Dealey Plaza, strolls around the parking lot for a bit then ends up in a conversation with DPD personnel in front of the TSBD? Or, does he mingle with the cops before heading off to the parking lot?

Just curious.

James

Hi James.

Not clear. What we seem to have his plaidshirt man joining another man in white pants, who can be seen approaching the area almost due North - more from the area of Commerce and Main and the plaza in general. Then we see Plaidshirt man approaching - but it's not possible to say firmly that he came from Main And Houston area. I think it's interesting for the sake of timing to use the men from that corner - who we see strolling across the lawn at this point - making this photo very soon after the shooting.

Here's a tough sell - I can't do much better. This guy standing next to the guy in the pick-up bears a slight resemblance - but it's almost impossible to improve on this, since he's just too far away.

So then I would guess we see him next in the railyards, and then huddled with the cops - in that order. But I am guessing. It could be the reverse. I don't know how easy it is to timestamp the Murray vs the Skaggs 17 [and Ernie Mentesana frames].

Interestingly enough, I found a number of new references which make it clear that there is a real misunderstanding with respect to the scene with the cops huddled with this guy - Groden clearly has it as the rifle which was taken off the roof of the TSBD and is being examined - WRONG!

Peter - that's a good point since the Mentesana film doesn't seem to have as many shadows - however, most of Skaggs stuff seems to be underexposed. I can tell you that it is difficult to improve through any traditional pc enhancing techniques.

Don - see if you can locate him anywhere else? I have looked through a few hundred photos and frames now - trying to see if he may have been on Houston - without success. His white pants should be a dead giveaway.

Terry - Agreed. While I like Craig - I still feel it's possible, given the environment he was in, that his recollection of Seymour's identification on the 'Mauser' may have been colored after-the-fact. He saw that there were games being played - he smelled something in the wind - he caught them changing his story and pushing him off. He may have been the victim of his own suspicion - as I stated before - if someone can find me a Mauser with '7.65mm Mauser' stamped on the barrel - I will stand corrected. Even assuming that the DPD was very much part and parcel to what went down [which I very much believe - much like crooked cops in Atlanta for MLK and crooked cops in LA for RFK], it seems rather outlandish to assume that there would have been a bait and switch going on - after-the-fact. As it was, I am sure it was difficult enough to worry about the chicken bones - which Alea made very clear - WERE DISCOVERED ON FIVE AND BROUGHT UP TO SIX. He couldn't fathom why the cops would all lie about it [my words not his]. No bag found - probably discovered in the storage room on seven. Shells not in their original position. Rifle discovery recreated for the camera. Lights called for to explore seven - which was dark. 'Sniper's nest' probably a blind for pornography - as per Hemming's statement. I just can't see them finding a Mauser and then doing a switch on it. What seems much more likely is that any weapon used in the shooting was removed from the building - in which case Seymour made a mistake.

Mr. BALL - Did you handle rifles?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols.

Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.

Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?

Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.

Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

Mr. BALL - You also said it was a gun metal color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Gray or blue?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Blue metal.

Mr. BALL - And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?

Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.

Mr. BALL - And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.

Mr. BALL - Rough wood, was it?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; rough wood.

Mr. BALL - And it was equipped with a scope?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Was it of Japanese manufacture?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.

And witnesses...hang on...Romack, for example - was either mistaken [assisting Sam Pate in getting through the barrier for "30 seconds" LOL] or was lying. Romack heard only three shots. All came from the TSBD. They were evenly spaced. Sure he could hit an elk from 350 yards with a bolt action no problem. Worrell was a monkey.

It just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.

Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about?

Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper this was on?

Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was on the front page in the left corner of the page.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was watching.

Sorry Romack - I'll take Worrell's word over yours anyday.

- lee

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Uh...Lee...about those "crooked cops in Atlanta for MLK"...

MLK was shot in Memphis. He lived in Atlanta. While crooked cops in Atlanta might've posed a problem for MLK, they didn't control the murder investigation in Memphis...at least I hope not.

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Uh...Lee...about those "crooked cops in Atlanta for MLK"...

MLK was shot in Memphis. He lived in Atlanta. While crooked cops in Atlanta might've posed a problem for MLK, they didn't control the murder investigation in Memphis...at least I hope not.

Yeah well you know what I meant - thanks for keeping me honest. : )

On December 8, 1999, a jury in Memphis, Tennessee, reached the verdict that Martin Luther King Jr. was killed as a result of a conspiracy involving the FBI, CIA, U.S. Army, Memphis police and the Mafia.
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"Aside from Craig - whom I tend to believe"

Lee.

I was considering a post of whether the members of the forum believed Roger Craig or not. I, after having watched him being interviewed (and using a layman's ability at studying facial expressions) also "tend" to believe him. As for the man wearing the plaid shirt, he certainly looks like the "odd man out" with his beret in cowboy country.

Terry

The "White Pants Guy" can be seen in the Bronson photos. Strolling across Main St., just as the shooting is happening. In one of Cancellieri"s he can be seen (seemingly) staring intently at the North Portico. His looks dark complected and fit. He is NOT showing reactions like those of most of the rest of the crowd.

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"Aside from Craig - whom I tend to believe"

Lee.

I was considering a post of whether the members of the forum believed Roger Craig or not. I, after having watched him being interviewed (and using a layman's ability at studying facial expressions) also "tend" to believe him. As for the man wearing the plaid shirt, he certainly looks like the "odd man out" with his beret in cowboy country.

Terry

The "White Pants Guy" can be seen in the Bronson photos. Strolling across Main St., just as the shooting is happening. In one of Cancellieri"s he can be seen (seemingly) staring intently at the North Portico. His looks dark complected and fit. He is NOT showing reactions like those of most of the rest of the crowd.

Staring intently - with "Beret Man" just behind him.

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"Aside from Craig - whom I tend to believe"

Lee.

I was considering a post of whether the members of the forum believed Roger Craig or not. I, after having watched him being interviewed (and using a layman's ability at studying facial expressions) also "tend" to believe him. As for the man wearing the plaid shirt, he certainly looks like the "odd man out" with his beret in cowboy country.

Terry

The "White Pants Guy" can be seen in the Bronson photos. Strolling across Main St., just as the shooting is happening. In one of Cancellieri"s he can be seen (seemingly) staring intently at the North Portico. His looks dark complected and fit. He is NOT showing reactions like those of most of the rest of the crowd.

Staring intently - with "Beret Man" just behind him.

Hi Frank - yeah, he's interesting as well. The white pants duo. The Cancellare view of the lawn was published once before - don't recall the name of the book and not important - it wasn't the best quality - but it wasn't cropped. Anyway, I found it interesting to note that both 'white pants guy' and 'plaidshirt man' were circled in that photo - for reasons unknown.

- lee

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