Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) I never had a beef with Jean, who was a very gracious lady, who told me many times in thepresence of many other researchers that she and Mary stepped OFF THE CURB. My beef is with people who try to twist words to fit their purpose. Jack Jack ... are there certain words in the English language that you do not understand ??? No one says that Jean and Mary didn't step off the curb. In fact, Mary said she took one photo from in the street. Now you being an old photo hound and familiar with Elm Street ... it should be obvious to you that Mary took the McBride photo from in the street. What I said is that the gracious lady 'Jean Hill' herself had clarified to a caller on Len Osanic's radio show that she had gotten back out of the street BEFORE the first shot was ever fired. This isn't me saying this, but rather JEAN HILL. You blew it Jack and its Jean Hill's own voice saying so. What's your next move now ... try and defame Jean so to attempt to salvage a bad claim? Maybe accuse Osanic of altering Jean's voice in an attempt to make you look to be incorrect. You remind me of a guy who keeps wanting to bet on a horse that isn't even in the race. Bill Miller Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 H THIS IS FIRST DAY TESTIMONY FROM THE TWO CLOSEST WITNESSES. Jack Posted Feb.2007 B........... Never have I ever seen an embracing of obvious exaggerations and errors over the word of the witness herself. Jean talks like no one was around her, yet there were people on both sides of her and behind. Of course this is little stuff ... when the caller phones Black Op to speak with Jean, he specifically wanted to know about where she stood during the shooting. Jean backed him up and clarified her leaving the street BEFORE the first shot was fired. This can be heard in Jean's own words and yet someone like Jack wants to forget what his good friend said in the real and dwell in less than detailed snippets in order to try and appear correct. Like I said earlier, Jack could have gone to Jean and gotten a video or recording getting Jean to clarify things if for no other reason than to validate his claim, but he didn't. The same can be done while Moorman is still alive, but he doesn't. Mark Oakes who is a friend of Moorman's and who sells her photograph autographed by Mark sates that Mary thinks the 'Moorman in the street' stuff is just plain silly (Mary's words). Bill Miller Bill : What year was it, when Len Osinac, did the interview with Jean on Black Op..would you know off hand.?? Did you get recordings of your many chats with Jean and or Mary, ?? Thanks....... B... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) Bill :What year was it, when Len Osinac, did the interview with Jean on Black Op..would you know off hand.?? Did you get recordings of your many chats with Jean and or Mary, ?? Thanks....... B... No Bernice, I did not record my chats with Jean. Try to understand that I was not a reporter, nor was I trying to make a buck on the woman. One time during a visit to Dallas and having known jean through the JFK community, I had invited Jean out to dinner and she accepted. I paid for the meal ... she came to the Ramada Inn on Akard where I stayed and we ate on the 13th floor. It was a relaxed and private place to visit ... no reporters, no mics, no agents peeking from behind every corner. That was the type of relationship I sought with Jean. Other times we spoke by phone and/or in the Plaza. I was there when Mark Lane drew everyone's attention to the lady in red during the 35 year memorial in Dealey Plaza. I can still hear Mark's voice telling the crowd about Jean and that she is standing exactly where she was 35 years ago when JFK was murdered. (And for the record - Jean stood in the grass then, too!) On a lighter note Jean would always say to me when she picked up the phone or saw me somewhere ... 'Hello Bill Miller from Illinois!' The first time I ever met her this was how I introduced myself and for some reason she thought it cute and would always say it aloud when we met or spoke on the phone. Maybe it was because that every time when I knew I was going to see her - I brought her an apple because of her being a school teacher. And yes, I do remember the year Jean's interview was on black op' for I believe it was the only interview she did with that show. I had posted this way back when you and I, along with Jack and many others were on the DelleRosa forum. I'm a little puzzled as to why as closely as you followed the Moorman in the street debate that you never bothered to go listen to Jean's interview. As I recall it was in 2000 and Jean had a three part interview. I cannot be 100% sure at this time if it was one show divided into three parts or three dates that her interviews appeared on there, but my memory tells me that it was one interview divided into three parts. It was on the third section at the 18:00 to 19:00 minute mark on the player I used to hear it. I believe I posted it at 18:20 seconds or so for when the caller started talking to Jean. I see now that Len doesn't seem to offer any longer the shows as archived so to be heard for free, but rather he sells the interviews for a small price. I hope that I have given you a good lead so to go listen to Jean in the event you didn't do it any of the other times I posted about it when it was a simple archived interview that could be heard merely by clicking onto Len's link. Bill Miller Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Now where in Illinois was that, and who did you work for? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) Bill :What year was it, when Len Osinac, did the interview with Jean on Black Op..would you know off hand.?? Did you get recordings of your many chats with Jean and or Mary, ?? Thanks....... B... No Bernice, I did not record my chats with Jean. Try to understand that I was not a reporter, nor was I trying to make a buck on the woman. One time during a visit to Dallas and having known jean through the JFK community, I had invited Jean out to dinner and she accepted. I paid for the meal ... she came to the Ramada Inn on Akard where I stayed and we ate on the 13th floor. It was a relaxed and private place to visit ... no reporters, no mics, no agents peeking from behind every corner. That was the type of relationship I sought with Jean. Other times we spoke by phone and/or in the Plaza. I was there when Mark Lane drew everyone's attention to the lady in red during the 35 year memorial in Dealey Plaza. I can still hear Mark's voice telling the crowd about Jean and that she is standing exactly where she was 35 years ago when JFK was murdered. (And for the record - Jean stood in the grass then, too!) On a lighter note Jean would always say to me when she picked up the phone or saw me somewhere ... 'Hello Bill Miller from Illinois!' The first time I ever met her this was how I introduced myself and for some reason she thought it cute and would always say it aloud when we met or spoke on the phone. Maybe it was because that every time when I knew I was going to see her - I brought her an apple because of her being a school teacher. And yes, I do remember the year Jean's interview was on black op' for I believe it was the only interview she did with that show. I had posted this way back when you and I, along with Jack and many others were on the DelleRosa forum. I'm a little puzzled as to why as closely as you followed the Moorman in the street debate that you never bothered to go listen to Jean's interview. As I recall it was in 2000 and Jean had a three part interview. I cannot be 100% sure at this time if it was one show divided into three parts or three dates that her interviews appeared on there, but my memory tells me that it was one interview divided into three parts. It was on the third section at the 18:00 to 19:00 minute mark on the player I used to hear it. I believe I posted it at 18:20 seconds or so for when the caller started talking to Jean. I see now that Len doesn't seem to offer any longer the shows as archived so to be heard for free, but rather he sells the interviews for a small price. I hope that I have given you a good lead so to go listen to Jean in the event you didn't do it any of the other times I posted about it when it was a simple archived interview that could be heard merely by clicking onto Len's link. Bill Miller **************** First Thank you Kathy for the link, appreciated....I was going to eventually have a search just in case it was available on the web, but today has been an exceptionally busy one...so I am grateful...I will have a listen.... B.. ******************** Now William, first thank you also for the information in your post, now don't go getting snitty, as it is catchy...for every reaction there is.....yada yada . as you know.. I have listened to how many, I have no idea , since 2000, or how many in the past year, no idea whatsoever...I do have Len's archived interviews.....that I purchased..a few years ago... I will find such and when I get the time I will have a look......as it may be on there..... If it was enabled back in 2000 during the Moorman in the street ,research debates,( ) I may have if it was accessible....that would be 8 years ago....and I will not stretch the truth and say I did.... It was the year as you are aware I was interested in.........as you know, from past threads, we have joined in, I value what they call first day evidence, including first recall more so than any real later recall.... I do not value changes to such, nor changes to evidence, documentation, facts etc down through the years....and I place no value in thinkies....imo all that does is stir the pot and confuse all the more as it sets out to do, it changes history....and what we may know...it can be a pain I am aware but so be it... So as seen here, no I cannot recall off hand exactly what Jean may or may not have said on Len's program,in 2000, nor in the past year right now, that I may have heard .. after listening to so many other in between...let alone 8 years ago........ ..if it is on my purchased archives from Len then yes, I will have since, but no I cannot state vertum what she may have said, and would not guess, and I doubt you could nor anyone, after the passing of much time......without first having a quick listen , and then pretending.. they could.....like get real..........as this is far from the only aspect of the.. research.. But that is exactly the point.....you put me somewhat on the defensive with your tactics, as you do so with great regularity with so many, which imo is a well honed ploy......learn to back off a bit Bill, and others would also....no one knows all....no one should ever pretend to..it is simply not possible, and none are looked down upon for being so.....and so now you must put up with my rambling, that's what you get in return....... As the years go by, even Jean and I have read so many times what a lovely woman she really was...etc.....but even so, that has nothing to do with her memory, nor her recall..... as the memory does fade and does not recall exactly, it simply happens.... ....with all..and yes I have read her book...and referenced to it.......in the past..which also was written some years later, and which she also at the time I do seem to recall she was not satisfied with parts within said book that were written without her corrections or some such......?? not positive but such is niggling..aw that memory... Some witnesses have built on their information down through the years,and created mountains, to the point of what then became books.... in one case a tome... ......others did not, but some information did change somewhat within their recall as you also are aware.....but in both instances there were changes from what they originally stated....some perhaps only slight others completely changed their recall.....but there were changes... You also have mentioned this I do believe in the past.....with some of the witnesses....in the follys of posts within a thread... You have also mentioned many times, about your recall of what Jean had stated to you, but now when asked directly ,you have stated you do not have any tapes either..... Perhaps that was the reason for the eh ?? tone of your reply, but I do appreciate your being up front and saying so...... But you also have accused Jack of not having any tapes, and that he should have gotten such, so the next natural question also was why did you not....?? I realize neither of you were reporters etc, but that is neither here nor there now...the bottom line is neither of you did... So I think this aspect of the information, now stands at a draw, what he recalls, and what you recall her saying to each of you personally, is to each his own, but that is as far as it goes.......IMO... as neither has her on tape....so neither can prove so....I am not being a rude here , but stating a fact.... Thanks all .....for now carry on carrying on... B.... Edited November 4, 2008 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Now where in Illinois was that, and who did you work for?Jack So tell me, Jack ... are you not interested in what Jean said about her stepping back out of the street BEFORE the first show was fired or are you more interested about where I lived in Illinois. Would knowing where I was born, where I went to school, who I had my first kiss with, what kinds of music I like, who I worked for before Caterpillar, who I worked for after Caterpillar, what year I was diagnosed with cancer, what meds did I take to beat cancer, what type of car do I drive, etc., etc., ... would any of those things have any bearing on why Jean Hill said that she had stepped out of the street BEFORE the first shot sounded??? Get real, Jack ... you have enough on your plate in producing that Moorman print that you claimed doesn't show a gap because no one in the JFK assassination community claims to possess it or have seen it. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I find it interesting that you choose to be selective in which version of her stories you choose to believe. Let's clear it up here. Tell me what you actually think she witnessed, ie, did she see a shooter? a puff of smoke? a flash?Have you actually watched the Maury video yet at the point between 4.20 and 4.30 where she says " I dashed out to the edge of the street and I started to touch the car " My guess is that you have. Now would you care, for once in your life, to admit that Jean got it wrong here and is in a fantasy world in this interview. I also notice in the Len Osanic interview that she said she seen Jack Ruby running away from the scene. Do you believe that? Do you also believe that she was held in a room and debriefed so to speak in a room overlooking tha assassination scene BEFORE she made her tv appearance with Mary Moorman. I have a good reason for asking you this question, and I would appreciate an answer. Duncan MacRae Must really be boring on your Duncan forum. Did Jean believe she saw Jack Ruby in Dealey Plaza .... I am sure she thought she had. Was it indeed Ruby she saw ... I do not know. What I do know that pertains to this topic is that she was in Dealey Plaza when JFK was killed. Jean was also a conspiracy believer when it came to JFK's murder and a friend of Jack's, thus there is no reason why she would say that she stepped out of the street BEFORE the first show rang out unless it was true. The Bronson slide, the Altgens photo, the Zapruder film, the Bronson film, the Muchmore film, and the Nix film all support Jean's remark that she had gotten back out of the street BEFORE the first shot was heard. If you have any evidence that Jean had a motive for saying something that would show Jack to be in error or that all the assassination films were altered to show Jack to be in error, then by all means share it with the rest of the world. There were 100's of witnesses in dealey Plaza who believed that there was a conspiracy in JFK's murder, yet not a one of them has ever said, 'Hey look .... the films show Jean and Mary in the grass when I saw them in the street!' It only takes a flawed study, some false claims, and the help of a select few people like yourself to continually try to resurrect a claim that has been dead in the water for years. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) Now William, first thank you also for the information in your post, now don't go getting snitty, as it is catchy...for every reaction there is.....yada yada .as you know.. I have listened to how many, I have no idea , since 2000, or how many in the past year, no idea whatsoever...I do have Len's archived interviews.....that I purchased..a few years ago... I will find such and when I get the time I will have a look......as it may be on there..... If it was enabled back in 2000 during the Moorman in the street ,research debates,( ) I may have if it was accessible....that would be 8 years ago....and I will not stretch the truth and say I did.... It was the year as you are aware I was interested in.........as you know, from past threads, we have joined in, I value what they call first day evidence, including first recall more so than any real later recall.... As someone who prefers first day evidence, then you must be aware that much of it was sketchy and less than precise. All Jean did in this case was not change anything, but only tried to clarify something in response to a question put to her by a caller. I had mentioned this in numerous responses to Jean Hill's where-a-bouts and it was a big point in the whole Moorman and Hill were in the street nonsense. How anyone could not recall it is beyond me, but if you say you did, then you must have. UPDATE: While answering these replies I was listening to Jean's old interview on Len's show. I don't know if its been archived differently than in 2000, but if you go to part two of a three part series and move your Real Player slide to the 28:28 mark and start the player, then you can hear Jean saying that she was back over the curb BEFORE the shooting started. I was in error when I said it was a caller, it was an email in this instance, however, I still remember her saying this to a caller who was speaking directly to her. This may have been on another show ... I have not listened to all of this one yet. Bill Miller http://www.blackopradio.com/archives2008.html # Show #384 Original airdate: July 24th, 2008 Guest: Jean Hill Topics: The JFK Assassination Interview Audio - Part One # Jean Hill from June 15/ 2000 # She has a well known book "The Last Dissenting Witness" written by Bill Sloan # Her email is nov63hill@aol.com # She was standing with her friend Mary Moorman as JFK's limo passed and he was shot # Jean witnessed a shooter in the classic position on the Grassy Knoll # She also saw Jack Ruby there and he was making unusually deliberate movements # Everyone else's reactions were purely instinctive...toward the Grassy Knoll # Secret Service people confiscated pictures from her that she denied having # They had to have been watching her all along # Jean recalls the changing of the parade route # Jean recalls that everything she witnessed Oliver Stone doing was very factual # She never saw her Warren Commission testimony for 25 years and it was changed # The writing of her book was delayed for many years because she felt threatened # Stone's wonderful treatment of his movie JFK encouraged Hill to write her book # Jean heard 4 to 6 shots... they wanted her to say only 3 # Hill was staring at JFK and was in direct line to observe the shooter on the knoll # She didn't witness a shot from inside the car... a popular theory Interview Audio - Part OTwo # Jean say that Mary Moorman saw nothing # The etiquette of the era # She says she thinks there were 6 or 8 pictures and she never saw what was on them # She states one picture was of the 6th floor but the background had been mutilated # Arlen Specter threatened to put Hill in a mental institution # Specter asked the steno to leave the room at several key times during her testimony # LBJ told Madeleine Brown the day before the assassination "The Kennedys will never bother me again" # Hill was told that LBJ slumped into his seat 'before' the shooting started # The impossibility of the escape Oswald was supposed to have made # Jean says Officer Tippett was killed because he was a part of Oswald's escape # When so many witnesses were killed, Jean can't understand how she's still alive # A discussion of the shots # In those days nobody questioned the government... now everyone does # The braking of the limo during the shots # The hold the Secret Service agents put on Jean right after the shots Interview Audio - Part Three # Jean is not aware of any witness that believes Oswald did the assassination # She comments that most of her interviews have been given a bad light # There was something fluffy with the Kennedys and Jean was asked to call it a dog # It wasn't a dog but that statement may have kept her alive all these years # Jean is having trouble getting her book rights back and the book is no longer being released # Jean wasa school teacher in an all black Dallas school # Gerald Posner claims to have interviewed Jean Hill but in reality he's a xxxx Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) 10 out of 10 for completely avoiding the questions other than the Ruby nonsense. Maybe I was wrong about you by suggesting that you do not take up comedy as a career. I'll try again. Do you believe Jean Hill was lying? or suffering from false memory? or telling the truth? when she said that she was taken to a room overlooking the assassination scene before she was filmed for the first time speaking with Mary Moorman about the assasination. I know that you know the reason I am asking this, and I suspect that is why you did not answer my question first time round. Now Bill, be careful if and when you answer, because you know what the implications will be in regard to previous postings of yours on a different yet related topic. Duncan MacRae[/b] I believe that Jean was more forthright and honest with me than you have been. I believe that following the shooting that she was in shock and possibly in her own mind she perceived things to be more sinister than they were just as some witnesses thought some things were meaningless that may have been sinister. If I cannot find something in the record to support a claim, then I just don't get bogged down over it. In this case about when Jean got out of the street ... the photographic record supports her statement. The snippet you allude to where Jean told Maury that she reached to touch the car is little more than a poor choice of words in my opinion when I am sure that she meant that she reached out towards the car as if to touch it to get the President's attention. The reason I say this is because Jean also said that she dashed out to the edge of the street, which still keeps her an entire lane away from the limo, thus making it impossible for her to have actually reached out to touch the limo. It may have even been her intention to continue out to the car so to touch it, but as she stated in her book ... she suddenly thought that the Secret service wouldn't like her doing it, so she backed off that idea. Bill Miller Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 That's a fair enough response, and I agree with most of it.... there's just one problem, it doesn't answer my question.Duncan MacRae Or maybe it does answer your question and you don't see it. Try rephrasing it. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) Ok,...Do you believe Jean Hill when she tells the story that she, not in the presence of Mary Moorman, and with Mary's photographs, plural, which she said she had in her pockets, was taken to a room by the alleged agents where she could view the entire assassination scene BEFORE she reconnected with Mary for the TV interview? That's what she said. I just want to know if you believe that story. I do not think it fair to Jean for me to speculate about something I know little about. You see, if I do this, then I am doing what you seem to often do. Thanks Duncan MacRae I think Jean could have had a similar experience, but may have been mistaken on the timing. This is something that should have been presented to her for clarification in my view. Her and I never discussed it. Maybe Jack has some additional information to offer. So tell me, does this have any bearing on whether Jean was back out of the street before the first shot was fired??? Bill Miller Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 So tell me, does this have any bearing on whether Jean was back out of the street before the first shot was fired???Bill Miller No, no bearing whatsoever. When you say " She may have " Does that mean you think she may have been correct in her recollection of the pre-tv recording event in the court records buildings? and do you understand why am asking this question and require a yes or no answer? It's not a trick question, just one which will lead to another question if you answer yes...that's a clue. Duncan MacRae I do not see how she could be correct, but I do not have enough of the evidence to give a valid opinion. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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