Question for John Simkin

[Wim Dankbaar]

Here's 3 pages that came into my possession 5 years ago. Who's the author?

Wim

[William Plumlee]

Here's 3 pages that came into my possession 5 years ago. Who's the author?

Wim

Wim; Post the "1963 'Flight Plan found in the weckage of the Cessna 172 ( the flight plan of which was tampered with and which you received from your friend in CA some years ago; as well as the FBI documents and interview with Mc Cord at the Mc Cord Ranch near Grants NM (as well as the info from the Grace Ranch and the Thunderbird INN in Vegas and Santa Barbara CA concerning "Curtin Studios) compare the typewriter with those writtings and letters and you have your answer.

Edited November 10, 2008 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

Here's 3 pages that came into my possession 5 years ago. Who's the author?

Wim

Wim; Post the "1963 'Flight Plan found in the weckage of the Cessna 172 ( the flight plan of which was tampered with and which you received from your friend in CA some years ago; as well as the FBI documents and interview with Mc Cord at the Mc Cord Ranch near Grants NM (as well as the info from the Grace Ranch and the Thunderbird INN in Vegas and Santa Barbara CA concerning "Curtin Studios) compare the typewriter with those writtings and letters and you have your answer.

Wim [or anyone else], I'd be very interested in the documents to which Tosh refers and would appreciate them sent to me privately, if not posted publicly! Thanks.

Pete: The flight plan I referenced is the one we received from the FOIA which was in the FOIA released to Barnard Finisterwald and Gary Shaw in 1980. (a secord set 510 pages differend from the 320 pages were released in a FOIA in 1987 to CBS and copies sent to me) If you remember we (you I and Jim Marrs) numbered the first set of documents there pages , with stamped numbers, in sequence as we reviewed them in Fort Worth back in 1990, I think. We are the ones who numbered then starting with page one through #320. The flight plan dated in June of 1963 I think, had J Rawlston written on it and I challenged the truthfulnes of the FBI's release because I would have never wrote Rawlston's name on a flight plan as I told you and Marrs that day... remember?

I claimed at the time that I did not trust that document. I felt the FBI had written that info in the side margins to discredit the document because at the time THEY (FBI) were investigating statements made by me at Buna Vista's Colorado State Reformatoery back in Jan of 1964, concerning one John Mc Cord and John Martino. Curtin studios was making silencers for the military in Santa Barbarba CA I was told in the Spring of 1964, and I flew a Cessna 172 from Grace Ranch to Mc Cord Ranch in NM where the Silencers were delivered. (told to the FBI and also to the FAA..... I had never closed out the flight plan and the FAA wanted to know WHY? The aircraft belong to Thompson Flight Service a CIA front charter company (contract CIA) based at Salt Lake City tail number 93 Echo covered FAA reg as belonging to Dow and Allied Chem companies..

The Vermin also tampered with some of my files so as to get money from Wim. Holts daughter sent me copies of her fathers writtings and the typerwriter matches what Wim posted today... I said I was not going to address this ever again but new information has came to light concerning documents and files which were also sent to Dr Wechet some years ago of which the FBI Department of Justice now have. (taken from his office on a search warrant over four years ago, I think..., also Col. James Sabow files were also taken by the FBI at the same time) I'll get shot for this, I'm sure. But have fun with it anyway... I am hoping the new Administration might be interest in some of this REAL history of that time frame. See Ya... Would'nt want to be ya.... Tosh

Edited November 10, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Wim Dankbaar]

Gentlemen, I am afraid I don't know what flight plan document is referred to.

Tosh, what makes you think I have such a document?

The documents I have are here: http://toshplumlee.info/

Wim

[Wim Dankbaar]

The Vermin also tampered with some of my files so as to get money from Wim. Holts daughter sent me copies of her fathers writtings and the typerwriter matches what Wim posted today... I said I was not going to address this ever again but new information has came to light concerning documents and files which were also sent to Dr Wechet some years ago of which the FBI Department of Justice now have. (taken from his office on a search warrant over four years ago, I think..., also Col. James Sabow files were also taken by the FBI at the same time) I'll get shot for this, I'm sure. But have fun with it anyway... I am hoping the new Administration might be interest in some of this REAL history of that time frame. See Ya... Would'nt want to be ya.... Tosh

I think you are not following me, Tosh. Do you mean to say that the Vermin (I take it you mean Vernon) concocted those 3 pages?

Wim

[William Plumlee]

Here's 3 pages that came into my possession 5 years ago. Who's the author?

Wim

Wim; Post the "1963 'Flight Plan found in the weckage of the Cessna 172 ( the flight plan of which was tampered with and which you received from your friend in CA some years ago; as well as the FBI documents and interview with Mc Cord at the Mc Cord Ranch near Grants NM (as well as the info from the Grace Ranch and the Thunderbird INN in Vegas and Santa Barbara CA concerning "Curtin Studios) compare the typewriter with those writtings and letters and you have your answer.

Wim [or anyone else], I'd be very interested in the documents to which Tosh refers and would appreciate them sent to me privately, if not posted publicly! Thanks.

Pete: The flight plan I referenced is the one we received from the FOIA which was in the FOIA released to Barnard Finisterwald and Gary Shaw in 1980. (a secord set 510 pages differend from the 320 pages were released in a FOIA in 1987 to CBS and copies sent to me) If you remember we (you I and Jim Marrs) numbered the first set of documents there pages , with stamped numbers, in sequence as we reviewed them in Fort Worth back in 1990, I think. We are the ones who numbered then starting with page one through #320. The flight plan dated in June of 1963 I think, had J Rawlston written on it and I challenged the truthfulnes of the FBI's release because I would have never wrote Rawlston's name on a flight plan as I told you and Marrs that day... remember?

I claimed at the time that I did not trust that document. I felt the FBI had written that info in the side margins to discredit the document because at the time THEY (FBI) were investigating statements made by me at Buna Vista's Colorado State Reformatoery back in Jan of 1964, concerning one John Mc Cord and John Martino. Curtin studios was making silencers for the military in Santa Barbarba CA I was told in the Spring of 1964, and I flew a Cessna 172 from Grace Ranch to Mc Cord Ranch in NM where the Silencers were delivered. (told to the FBI and also to the FAA..... I had never closed out the flight plan and the FAA wanted to know WHY? The aircraft belong to Thompson Flight Service a CIA front charter company (contract CIA) based at Salt Lake City tail number 93 Echo covered FAA reg as belonging to Dow and Allied Chem companies..

The Vermin also tampered with some of my files so as to get money from Wim. Holts daughter sent me copies of her fathers writtings and the typerwriter matches what Wim posted today... I said I was not going to address this ever again but new information has came to light concerning documents and files which were also sent to Dr Wechet some years ago of which the FBI Department of Justice now have. (taken from his office on a search warrant over four years ago, I think..., also Col. James Sabow files were also taken by the FBI at the same time) I'll get shot for this, I'm sure. But have fun with it anyway... I am hoping the new Administration might be interest in some of this REAL history of that time frame. See Ya... Would'nt want to be ya.... Tosh

From a previous post on this Forum years ago:

"... In November, 1963, Roselli travelled to Arizona with a male friend and two women. He was being followed by the FBI but on the way to Los Vegas they lost contact with him.

To which destination did he travel in Arizona? Licavoli's Grace Ranch?

Wim

Plumlee reply to Wim:

YES. From Caravan Inn in Phoenix to Grace Ranch after returning from Thunderbird Inn in Nevada outside of Vegas (November of 1963

( also see information concerning another earlier flight with Roselli from Burbank and Santa Barbara CA to Grace Ranch outside of Tucson AZ; as well as a Galveston Texas flight also in the spring of 1963 (reference, April 1963 flight plan of N6393 Echo flown from Thomson Flying Service of Salt Lake City, Utah. (Ralston, Rawlston, aka Roselli on board, as handwritten notations on flight plan) ( located in FBI 26 Lab file; referenced as, "Plumlee ITSA")

Roselli was in DC a few days before the assassination and flew down to Tampa two days before the assassination; reg at the Congress Inn Tampa Fla. A few days before his trip to Washington DC he was signed in at the JM WAVE gate as COL Ralwston , Miami Station (documented) (FBI Hoover changed the record at request of CIA; referenced Dade County Homicide investigation, ref; Det. Smith Miami Homo 1981)

Mc Cord Ranch of NM..., also note another FBI document in reference to the $15,000 found in a bus locker in West Palm, Florida Spring of 63.., the money was later RETURNED to Roselli (as noted by FBI documents and testimony of subject, 1963)

This money was received at the Grace Ranch for the purchase of military hardware (P-51) at Miranda Air Park north of Tucson, AZ. The aircraft could not be obtained and the money was taken from AZ by a pilot to West Palm Beach, Florida and put in a bus locker..., and eventually the money was given to Roselli by the "AGENTS" ( note: two sets of FBI documents were released by the FBI. One said nothing was found in the locker except an "old pair of binoculars", ref; FOIA, 1981 release. Another FOIA 1997 release stated,... " the money was found in the locker and turned over to the CIA (agents) by the FBI. This information was classified secret until 1997. or there about. This information was given to Congressman Tom Downing, Senator Gary Hart and Senator Berry Goldwater before the HSCA was even formed. (1976-77)

Documented by FBI and CIA (also some reference found in a Roselli 62-2116 I think is the correct number declassified 1997 or there abouts)

[William Plumlee]

Gentlemen, I am afraid I don't know what flight plan document is referred to.

Tosh, what makes you think I have such a document?

The documents I have are here: http://toshplumlee.info/

Wim

Our friend had it in the FOIA material of which he claimed to have sent to you around 2002 or there abouts. At the time, when I was at his place in CA, I did see those three pages or copies of those three pages and he ask me about them. I said I thought they were from or written by C Holt and were not authentic. He assured me they were. The copy of the FOIA flight plan came up as we went through some of the documents spread out on his pool table, documents of which I had loaned him. (bad mistake) the year was 2000) You came into the picture sometime later and I was told you had received the " Roselli flight Plan". I was told that Joe West had confirmed that Roselli was on board my flight and he could prove it. He accused me of holding back information. You know what happened after that. I was told Joe West had received those writings from a man in prison who knew me, but he refused to give me his name. I was told he knew how Roselli got to Dallas on a flight from Florida. Sometime later I asked for the return of those documents because I accused him of tampering with them. I was told he no longer had any of that stuff and called me a bunch of names even publicly saying I was nothing more than a drunk and a xxxx. I did not know that he had sold all that to you claiming he had the rights to my life story and all the documents of the FOIA belong to him.... a total crock of ....... This is from my POV and memory.

The toshplumlee.com list of documents was made by this person and later I think you started the website in my behalf and used his format or disk which you had obtained from him. I have never had anything to do with that website. The documents posted on that website are a very small part of the documents obtained from the FOIA's which Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I numbered back in 1990 long before Vermin and you came into the picture. My dealings concerning JFK were with Joe West before he died. It means nothing to me now.

you take care Tosh

[Wim Dankbaar]

Tosh, we don't have to go over "Vermin" agian. He's not worth our anger.

Isn't it funny that both you and James think I should have gotten more documents from Vernon than I did?

Right now, I am merely interested to find out if Donald Freed wrote the 3 sheets above, and if so why the info on Files did not appear in his book. You suggest they were concocted by Vernon. I don't believe that, but we''ll know soon enough.....

Wim

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, we don't have to go over "Vermin" agian. He's not worth our anger.

Isn't it funny that both you and James think I should have gotten more documents from Vernon than I did?

Right now, I am merely interested to find out if Donald Freed wrote the 3 sheets above, and if so why the info on Files did not appear in his book. You suggest they were concocted by Vernon. I don't believe that, but we''ll know soon enough.....

Wim

Wim; Did you get this CIA document and the background info on J Martino Reference OPS Thunder June of 1962?

thunder_CIA.pdf

[Wim Dankbaar]

No, I don't recall having or having see that document. Is there reference to the OAS? Or do I read that wrong?

What's the significance of this document in your view?

Wim

[William Plumlee]

No, I don't recall having or having see that document. Is there reference to the OAS? Or do I read that wrong?

What's the significance of this document in your view?

Wim

A few of those who were associated with the "rally" were also in Dallas the day of the assassination. Also some came from the Harlendale address in Oak Cliff and one lived behind the Beckely street rooming house that Oswald rented, another lived at the Elsbeth Street apartment. These people were often referenced as the "Dallas Cubans" Two later went to the "School of Americas" at Benning. (part of this info is contained in the 'blacked out " sections of the complete document as well as another classified file which has not as yet been declassified. Tracy Barns, Wild Bill, and others had contacts with them through Miami Station in the Spring of 63.

I am amazed you do not know any of this because it was all in my files which went to Joe West. I took Joe to these places, and later Jim Marrs, as well as Oliver Stone's people before his JFK movie..., Marrs referenced it as, " the "Dallas Tour": We went to all of those safe houses in Oak Cliff in the late 90's and took pictures.

Too prove one of my sour spots..., people do not read things they do not want to know because it will take them into new ground and they might have to adjust their thinking and retract various matters they have supported and written upon for years... This document has been on the toshplumlee.info website under 'Thunder OPS" for years now. (as well as other tid bits of Black Ops matters concerning JFK ... (Documented) This is not to say the Cubans were involved in the assassination..., they were not. However some had associations with F Black and M Walace (documented) which raises some very important questions in my mind about Texas politics, which leads back to fingerprints found at the crime scean. There was a Dallas and FBI Undercover intell operation ongoing at the time of the assassination. ( that secret operation was referenced by the late Jay Harrison a Texas researcher who was associated with that operation ..,the Minutemen I think it was.., days before the assassination)

I can't be of hep anymore on this... Nobody reads or researchers things they do not want to hear. Facts have a way of getting in the way of their truth

Take care and have a good one Tosh

Edited November 12, 2008 by William Plumlee

[Wim Dankbaar]

Nobody reads or researchers things they do not want to hear. Facts have a way of getting in the way of their truth

That's true, Tosh! We're all guilty of that, including you and me.

Yesterday I got the confirmation that James Files did indeed turn up in the investigation of the Letelier case and was interrogated by the FBI, but refused to answer any questions and was let of the hook. I am told the FBI did not find him credible (even though he didn't make any statements). Where have I heard that before? Lucky Jimmy!

But even key people at the International Institute of Policy Studies want to believe that DINA and Chile were behind it all. Well, I am pretty sure that Files did not work for DINA. Neither do I believe that DINA orchestrated the coup that put Pinochet in power. A name that keeps coming up in these affairs is "good ole David Phillips" as Donald Freed calls him in his book. It seems to me that the Letelier killing was just a little repetition of the Kennedy killing. With many of the same actors!

Wim

[William Kelly]

Nobody reads or researchers things they do not want to hear. Facts have a way of getting in the way of their truth

That's true, Tosh! We're all guilty of that, including you and me.

Yesterday I got the confirmation that James Files did indeed turn up in the investigation of the Letelier case and was interrogated by the FBI, but refused to answer any questions and was let of the hook. I am told the FBI did not find him credible (even though he didn't make any statements). Where have I heard that before? Lucky Jimmy!

But even key people at the International Institute of Policy Studies want to believe that DINA and Chile were behind it all. Well, I am pretty sure that Files did not work for DINA. Neither do I believe that DINA orchestrated the coup that put Pinochet in power. A name that keeps coming up in these affairs is "good ole David Phillips" as Donald Freed calls him in his book. It seems to me that the Letelier killing was just a little repetition of the Kennedy killing. With many of the same actors!

Wim

Any serious legal resolution of the assassination of President Kennedy would have to follow the same route as the investigation and prosecution of the Letelier assassination, and begin with an aggressive criminal prosecutor - like Asst. US Attorney like Gene Proper, presenting evidence and obtaining witness testimony before a Special Federal Grand Jury conveined for 18 months and having only that one case to consider indictments.

All of the books written about the Letelier assassination (ie. Assassination on Embassy Row, etc.) detail how the federal grand jury was used to bring the case to court.

BK

[William Plumlee]

Nobody reads or researchers things they do not want to hear. Facts have a way of getting in the way of their truth

That's true, Tosh! We're all guilty of that, including you and me.

Yesterday I got the confirmation that James Files did indeed turn up in the investigation of the Letelier case and was interrogated by the FBI, but refused to answer any questions and was let of the hook. I am told the FBI did not find him credible (even though he didn't make any statements). Where have I heard that before? Lucky Jimmy!

But even key people at the International Institute of Policy Studies want to believe that DINA and Chile were behind it all. Well, I am pretty sure that Files did not work for DINA. Neither do I believe that DINA orchestrated the coup that put Pinochet in power. A name that keeps coming up in these affairs is "good ole David Phillips" as Donald Freed calls him in his book. It seems to me that the Letelier killing was just a little repetition of the Kennedy killing. With many of the same actors!

Wim

Yes I know. I too, was grilled by the FBI on this matter (Letlier, Omega-7; Alpha-66 DRU and the M-26-7).... at the time, I told them to "stick it in their ear". Some years later, Senator John Kerry also received info on this case (staffers Dick Mc Call and John Winer) because I was asked to comment on that at the time of my testimony in 1990. I am taking a fresh look at the Files information. and inside background information which I have received from an outside source who was connected with military intell ops of the time. Also two other sets of documents have been relerased fround in the records of the old School of the Americas at Benning which sheds new light on Jimmie... althought I do not buy the whole Files matter concerning JFK, his name as Sutton is found in thes documents.... I do not have these documents. I only saw them in a controled atmosphere last week.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Tosh, There are also these documents retrieved from Files' storage shed at his aunt Kay (now deceased).

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/FBI1.htm

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/FBI2.htm

Files was asked about these documents by Vernon and Barry Adelman. He said that he got those documents under the Freedom of Information Act from the ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Fireams) in the early eighties when he was in the federal Oxford prison and prepared for his defense in another charge, namely the demolition of an Austin Motors Dealership. I bet that nowadays they won't give you copies of these if you ask for them. I bet they are "unfindable".

See news paper clipping:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/Austinmotors.JPG

Files was pretty good with explosives. Where do you think he he learned the trade?

JF - That was a big tip-off for me when I see them come down. And I tell you were my knowledge is, and you can check this out with the FBI. They had me for the bombing in Chicago over there, on the North side, Austin Motors. This place cover like a whole block. When this building came down, and I went to trial on it, 1983, right there in Chicago, they held me for 13 months in the MCC correctional center there. I hadn’t put a brick across the sidewalk, I put everything inside the building. That’s how good it was. They knew I had done it, everybody else knew I had done it.

J – Everything just plunged, right there?

JF – Yeah, I was already doing 20 years for the chop shop operation, and they wanted me to plead guilty and they would give me another twenty and run it concurrent, they told me. My words was: xxxx you! Put me on trial! I went to trial. Jimmy Gaudio, my partner, he wound up pleading guilty. First he was going to beef against me. There is another party, Lou Cavalaro, better known as Blind Louie, when he was young and we rubbed together, his name was Bad Boy Louie. And when I say bad, he was bad. But as we got older and went into crime-life and everything else, we separated for a long time and we got back together, but they called him Blind Louie. Blind Louie, we moved him out there to Arizona, from the Chicago area, he lived there in Elmhurst. As a matter of fact they did a thing on him on ABC one night. They were interviewing him about him living and this and that, (and that it) must be hard (inaudible). He said: It’s really hard for me to get by. I have to struggle!” He didn’t know they got cameras out back, showing the swimming pool in the backyard, all the Cadillacs in the driveway, he has got a beautiful home, 300 , 400.000 dollar home.

J –And he is struggling?

JF – And he is struggling, yeah! And we moved him out there anyway. But while we are out there and I’m on trial, he got a call from Louie. They got him hooked up to talk to Louie at the MCC in Chicago where he is being held on bond. And they told him: If you testify against Jimmy, you don’t have to worry about going to prison. He (Louie) said : You don’t ever testify against him! And so Jimmy Gaudio refused to testify against me. I was acquitted of the case.