11-22-63 aerial of Dealey Plaza

[Duke Lane]

As I've said before Duke, ["Freeway Man" is] a fantastic in depth article which everyone should read BEFORE they buy the Hoffman book. ... You should get a Lancer award for it

Bell background stabilized [movie attached]. Should Ed or Officer Murphy appear on the Stemmon's (I believe) overpass? If so, where would they be in Bell?

Well, maybe don't be so quick with the praise or even the belief that Murphy was really there.

I received the following email the other day; I don't know if the writer believes EH was on the bridge or not, but apparently there is some issue about the traffic stop that I described in "FM," to wit:

The Bell clip Chris made begins no more than 15 seconds after the head shot, for that's JFK's car coming out the other side of the underpass. The traffic was still moving at what looks like highway speed, so the claim that traffic was stopped cannot be true.

Well, I looked and doggoned if that didn't seem to be the case, but with all the testimony and documentation about it, I had difficulty in believing it was fabricated so thoroughly, even down to the point of getting a newspaper employee to lie and adding radio transmissions referring to it. I likewise couldn't imagine that DPD or the Secret Service would have allowed a parade - any parade, much less that featuring a US President in it - to simply get onto the highway and blend into traffic, and that's just what I replied (in a little more depth, as is my wont). The clincher came a few hours later:

Well, this should be easy to figure out, since I have read Freeway Man and I'm aware of some of the other sources you are relying upon. Therefore, IF the traffic was stopped, then the Bell film must fake. Are you taking that position?

Or are you suggesting that the timing of the film is wrong? The Bell film begins with JFK entering the underpass, and we know from the Z film that happened within ten seconds of the head shot. It only takes five seconds or less to go through the underpass, so the timing of that clip is very, very close to 15 seconds. Are you suggesting there is something wrong with the Bell film? ...

he Bell film shows only a few vehicles traveling northbound on the Stemmons overpass. There was no vehicle backup and those cars weren't slowing down for any cars just off camera to the right.

So either the Bell film has been faked ... or your sources are wrong. Any others come to mind?

From the tone, it seems as if there could be no other The writer vouched for the absolute veracity of the Bell film and its transposition to video, and that "a [film] speed error cannot be responsible," ruling that possibility out. Since I don't think the "B-film" is doctored, the only option I apparently have is to admit I'm wrong; there are no others, it seems.

(Unless, of course, you'd like to admit to doctoring the film, Chris? It'll save me an awful lot of work!)

Here's the dilemma; work with me on it if you would.

The traffic was still moving at what looks like highway speed, so the claim that traffic was stopped cannot be true

This is roughly a five-second clip. In that five seconds, the limo does appear to just be entering the underpass and, "five seconds or less" later, the limousine does appear to be through and beyond the underpass, in keeping with the estimate above. No fakery there, is there? Not that I can figure so far.

In the background are cars going across Stemmons Freeway south to north (left to right on the film). They're all going at about the same speed which, if it's "highway speed," is probably around 60 mph. I'd concluded in "FM" that the barricade was at or near the railroad bridge over Stemmons, depicted with the series of "M" balloons in the image below. From the end of the section of highway shown on the B-film (depicted by the red line on the image below) to where the balloons are, Google Earth estimates it at 0.06 miles or 342 feet.

According to UK-based Hints and Things' "Approximate Stopping Distances" page (strangely enough in miles per hour and feet! See chart near the bottom of the page), at 60 mph there is a "thinking time distance" (the distance travelled before reacting to brake lights in front of you) of 60 feet and a braking distance (the time to stop after putting your foot in the brake to the time you actually stop) of 180 feet, for a "total braking distance" of 240 feet.

Thus, if a car shown in the film at the farthest north portion of the highway (to the right in the film) didn't even notice anyone's brake lights ahead at that point would have 102 feet left over after stopping; that is, the driver would be able to react and brake within 240 feet before coming to a complete stop.

So it would seem that if the cars were all moving at 60 mph, it is not so "the claim that traffic was stopped cannot be true," for most of them could have stopped within the 340 feet to the barricade ... and this assumes that they were "taken by surprise" by cars ahead suddenly braking and didn't slow down before the last possible second.

The traffic was still moving at what looks like highway speed ...

I'd noted above that all the cars were "going along at about the same speed," but was that "highway speed," i.e., around 60 mph? I decided to spend a bit more time on that question, even though the above is dispositive of the "impossibility" of a traffic stop at the railroad bridge. Here's what I observed and measured:

As the clip starts, you notice a white car just entering the frame; in the screenshots below of the movie Christ posted, it is to the left of where the vertical and horizontal red lines intersect; you can see it more clearly in the second from, which is slightly advanced from the first. You can see the relative slide location from the slider bar at the bottom of the QuickTime window.

Since Bell's camera was jittering, the car as seen in the second frame has not so much advanced forward as the camera lens has moved slightly to the left: compare the relative location to the left edge of the slide of the "half-domed" building that the car is passing, as well as the left edge of the frame compared to the edge of each image (separated by a thin white vertical line).

In the third frame, which the slider bar at the bottom shows being about half-way through the total sequence, the car is still to the left of the red lines; I've added a yellow line to show where the nose of the car had been in the first frame. In the black portion of the 3rd frame, I've enlarge the same locations from both the first and the third frame and aligned them vertically so you can see if they're aligned properly; I think you'll agree that they are.

In the fourth frame (and please bear in mind that, for my purposes here, "frame" means "screenshot," not actual film frames), we see that the nose of the car has passed beyond the left edge of the "Fort Worth" [Turnpike] sign over the left lane of the entrance ramp, its tail barely still in front of the half-domed building. This is the end of the five-second clip as shown by the slider bar at the bottom.

In the fifth frame, which was actually about 25% of the way through the sequence (see slider bar) but which shows the entire distance the car has traveled, I've marked where its nose was at the beginning and at the end of the entire film sequence. Based on this, I'm going to estimate the nose of the car starting at just above the right-most lane of Commerce Street at about the point where the sidewalk meets the road, and the end point at about middle of the left lane of the entrance ramp.

I should point out, also, that through the underpass you can just see the shadow of the curb that separates Commerce Street to the left and the entrance ramp to the right; I've put a green line beneath that location in each frame.

The question now becomes: how far did the car travel in five seconds? For this we turn to Google Earth.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get a screen shot to show what the measurement of the white line is, but exactly what you see here is 142.9 feet. For the sake of argument, let's call it somewhere between 130 and 150 feet. This screen shot does, however, show where the non-existent motorcycle barricade was supposed to have been, another 1/10th of a mile up the road.

So here are my calculations:

• 130 feet in five seconds is 26 feet per second; 150 feet in five seconds is 30 feet per second (fps).
  
• 26 fps x 60 seconds = 1560 feet per minute x 60 minutes = 93,600 feet per hour ÷ 5280 feet per mile = ~17-18 miles per hour.
  
• 30 fps x 60 seconds = 1800 feet per minute x 60 minutes = 108,000 feet per hour ÷ 5280 feet per mile = ~20-21 miles per hour.
  
• (Incidentally, to have been going even 30 mph, the car would've had to travel 220 feet.)
  

There was no vehicle backup and those cars weren't slowing down for any cars just off camera to the right

It's true that there is no vehicle backup (i.e., traffic jam) shown in the section of highway that's in the B-film, and maybe we can't tell why cars might've been slowing down (if they were); in either case, we don't exactly know what was off to the right of the filmed area. Does that mean we can say what those slowing vehicles weren't slowing down for?

The bigger question is whether they were just going slow - as we've demonstrated above - or if they were, in fact, slowing down.

The above are speeds for covering the entire distance; to settle the question of whether the car was slowing, the yellow lines in the image below show where the nose of the car was at the beginning, middle and end of the five-second clip. It appears from this that the car move a bit farther in the first 2½ seconds than it did in the second 2½ seconds.

There is a definitely more space between the 1st and 2nd lines than there is between the 2nd and 3rd. Using PhotoShop's measuring tool, I found the distance between the left edge of the 1st line and the left edge of the 2nd line to be 106 pixels; the distance between the left edge of the 2nd line and the left edge of the 3rd is 81 pixels; and the distance from the left edge of the 1st line and the left edge of the 3rd line is 189 pixels. Thus, the math based on a 150-foot measurement of the total distance the car traveled:

For the first half of the film:

• 106 pixels ÷ 189 pixels = .56
  
• 150 feet x .56 = 84 feet ÷ 2½ seconds = 33.6 fps
  
• 33 fps x 60 seconds = 1980 feet per minute x 60 minutes = 118,800 feet per hour ÷ 5280 feet per mile = ~22.5 miles per hour
  

For the second half of the film:

• 81 pixels ÷ 189 pixels = .44 (.56 + .44 = 1.00)
  
• 150 feet x .44 = 66 feet (84 + 66 = 150) ÷ 2½ seconds = 26.4 fps
  
• 26.4 fps x 60 seconds = 1584 feet per minute x 60 minutes = 95,040 feet per hour ÷ 5280 feet per mile = ~18 miles per hour
  

So, if these calculations are correct, the white car slowed down about 4-5 mph between the first half and the second half of the five-second clip: not only was it going well below "what seems to be highway speed," but it slowed down even further as the clip progresses, thus showing that this car, at least, was slowing down. Why it was slowing down can only be inferred without going through similar exercises for each of the other cars and trucks shown on the film, some of which are off the screen by the end of the clip.

As you watch the Bell film, however, you'll notice that all of the vehicles on the highway are - as I'd said earlier - moving at about the same speed, even those in the passing lanes: you can see a pickup truck begin to pass the white car; it did not whiz by at twice or three times the white car's speed. The same can be seen farther up the road (to the right) with other vehicles as all of them pretty well keep pace with each other.

(The pickup truck, which enters the clip behind the white car and begins to pass it, does not entirely pass the car by the end of the clip. Maybe it would've if there were more to the film, but even its progress seems to slow a little as you advance the clip.)

I think all will agree that the distance along the highway seen in the Bell film is not any 300 or 450 or more feet (which if the white car covered that much distance in five seconds it would have been going 40-60 mph), and that being the case, the cars aren't "moving at ... highway speed" no matter what it "looks like."

So now the questions:

• Is there another a positive ("yes") answer to the presumption that "either the Bell film has been faked ... or your sources are wrong. Any others come to mind?"
  
• Are my calculations correct to within a reasonable degree of certainty as to distance and speed?
  
• Were the cars going at "highway speed" or were they travelling much slower?
  
• Were the cars - or at least the white car - at least apparently "slowing down for any cars just off camera to the right?"
  
• Is the evidence of traffic on the 60-mph Stemmons Freeway moving across the Dealey Plaza area (1/10th of a mile from the barricade) at just 20 mph, when coupled with the citations in "Freeway Man," either "documentary proof" or "proof positive" that there was a traffic barricade holding up traffic? And,
  
• Is this now entirely dispositive of the question about the traffic stop?
  

Unfortunately, given the fact that the three wheelers had apparently already moved ahead to stop traffic, Officer Murphy would not be shown in the Bell film ... and Ed, of course, was never there. (If he had been, he'd have been somewhere in the area shown by the red square in the image below. If anyone finds him there, you'll have eyes - and an imagination - much better than mine.

Tentative Conclusions

The initial analysis was that The traffic was still moving at what looks like highway speed, so the claim that traffic was stopped cannot be true; that is, "that's not the way I perceive it, so it is impossible for you to be right." I tend to differ: impressions are not "facts" no matter how expert the source or how great the hubris.

Meanwhile, the statement those cars weren't slowing down for any cars just off camera to the right simply has no basis in observable fact. Does anyone disagree?-----

PS - Chris, I never thought you'd messed with the film. You probably didn't really think I thought so either.

[Duke Lane]

Here's another bit of information, via the Couch film, that was sent to me.

Despite its poor quality, this appears to be a scene on Stemmons, with cars exiting at what could be Continental Blvd, judging by the length of the words on the sign. On the right there are three motorcycle or three-wheel officers standing by one motorcycle, and a fourth standing by the motorcycle in the center; two of the officers' motors are not shown. There are also three men in plain clothes standing with a fourth man on the left.

Since we can reasonably deduce that there are at least two other motorcycles unaccounted for and that it's unlikely that these guys standing on the highway aren't all that kept traffic back, and it is clear that there are no vehicles on the highway behind them (other than perhaps on the side of the road: the image is too blurry to state for certain), the existence of the road block is now established, is it not?

If anyone (Robin Unger, where are you?) has a clearer copy of this or adjacent frames, by all means, put it up here!

[David G. Healy]

excellent work Duke Lane....

David Healy

[Chris Davidson]

Here's another bit of information, via the Couch film, that was sent to me.

Despite its poor quality, this appears to be a scene on Stemmons, with cars exiting at what could be Continental Blvd, judging by the length of the words on the sign. On the right there are three motorcycle or three-wheel officers standing by one motorcycle, and a fourth standing by the motorcycle in the center; two of the officers' motors are not shown. There are also three men in plain clothes standing with a fourth man on the left.

Since we can reasonably deduce that there are at least two other motorcycles unaccounted for and that it's unlikely that these guys standing on the highway aren't all that kept traffic back, and it is clear that there are no vehicles on the highway behind them (other than perhaps on the side of the road: the image is too blurry to state for certain), the existence of the road block is now established, is it not?

If anyone (Robin Unger, where are you?) has a clearer copy of this or adjacent frames, by all means, put it up here!

Duke,

This stabilization isn't much clearer, but it will give you a brief look at the movie.

The truck at right is stopped.

Yes, I did alter/doctor this one. I added the sepia tone background to it.

chris

[Robin Unger]

As I've said before Duke, a fantastic in depth article which everyone should read BEFORE they buy the Hoffman book.

Maybe Bill should read it and then back off. You should get a Lancer award for it

Duncan MacRae

Bell background stabilized.

Should Ed or Officer Murphy appear on the Stemmon's (I believe) overpass?

If so, where would they be in Bell?

chris

Hi Chris.

Very nice work on the Bell Movie.

Great close up of the other "RUNNING" man

Hi Duke.

Interesting frame:

I have never seen it before. ?

Edited November 16, 2008 by Robin Unger

[Duke Lane]

I think, based upon the Couch frame and film, my placement of the motorcycle barricade has to change to somewhere farther north on the highway.

From those, it seems that traffic is being allowed to exit Continental, and the men shown on the highway, while probably behind (i.e., farther north from) the barricade) suggest that it couldn't have been before the railroad bridge, where I'd placed it earlier.

Similarly, it would seem as if they'd want it positioned where they could prevent someone from trying to drive around it, either by driving over a median to the Commerce Street entrance where the motorcade would come up, or by exiting at Continental and driving over the median to get back onto the main highway.

(I also suspect that they'd want to keep that fellow running toward them on the highway waving his hands like he was (NOT!) and jumping into his car parked over yonder (NOT!) ... at least it doesn't appear in these images, does it!)

So, the modified position might be this; does it make sense? (It also extends the total stopping distance from 0.09 miles to 0.15 miles. Not that we really need to know that anymore ...!)

New placement of police motorcycle barricade

based on Couch film images.

[Duke Lane]

For something just a little different: If you'll go back to Jack White's original post in this thread, you'll notice that there is only one building under construction around Dealey Plaza, clearly visible at the right edge of the photo Jack posted (which should appear below). That building is what became the Dallas County Government Building downtown at 600 Commerce St.

This is the building on which Richard Randolph Carr had been working several floors up, from which he purportedly saw someone run from the depository and jump into a car to make good his "escape" from the TSBD.

I've heard it said that Carr could not have seen such a thing occur, this from someone who had gone into the building and looked out, and said he couldn't see what Carr claimed to have seen.

Well, I've tried to get into the old Post Office annex without success (emphatically without success!), so haven't felt the need to try to get into any other building that I thought would pose similar problems. Then, I had a brain drizzle.

The image below was taken from the southeast corner of the TSBD looking toward the building that was under construction on November 22, 1963, the only one of sufficient height to have afforded Carr the view he claimed, and this is what there is to see:

The Government Center building is the white corner that shows nestled between the turrets of the Old Red Courthouse. This is the best view of the Government building that could be obtained (closest to it south, and farthest from it west; moving north on Houston or east on Elm reduced the amount of the building that could be seen) where, from the opposite view, Carr could've seen a car (yeah, yeah, I know: punny me!) ... from which Carr could've seen an automobile, okay?

You can see that Carr could only have been standing atop a very small portion of the building under construction, either on the very top girders or perhaps on the second row down, and only in a small section of the overall building; also, since the "skin" wasn't on the building, he could've been on the south side of the building looking through the uncompleted construction (it doesn't look as if any safety flooring has been laid in the aerial photo).

So, in light of this, I'd have to say that it's not impossible that Carr saw what he said he saw, but qualify that by saying that it was only possible from a very small section of the building. What, then, specifically, does Carr have to say about where he was and what he saw?

Folks who'll be in Dallas this week for the 45th might want to take a stroll along Houston as well to see if as much of the building or more remains visible such that he could've seen all that he'd claimed to have.

[Robin Unger]

Hughes frame:

[John Dolva]

For something just a little different: If you'll go back to Jack White's original post in this thread, you'll notice that there is only one building under construction around Dealey Plaza, clearly visible at the right edge of the photo Jack posted (which should appear below). That building is what became the Dallas County Government Building downtown at 600 Commerce St.

This is the building on which Richard Randolph Carr had been working several floors up, from which he purportedly saw someone run from the depository and jump into a car to make good his "escape" from the TSBD.

I've heard it said that Carr could not have seen such a thing occur, this from someone who had gone into the building and looked out, and said he couldn't see what Carr claimed to have seen.

Well, I've tried to get into the old Post Office annex without success (emphatically without success!), so haven't felt the need to try to get into any other building that I thought would pose similar problems. Then, I had a brain drizzle.

The image below was taken from the southeast corner of the TSBD looking toward the building that was under construction on November 22, 1963, the only one of sufficient height to have afforded Carr the view he claimed, and this is what there is to see:

The Government Center building is the white corner that shows nestled between the turrets of the Old Red Courthouse. This is the best view of the Government building that could be obtained (closest to it south, and farthest from it west; moving north on Houston or east on Elm reduced the amount of the building that could be seen) where, from the opposite view, Carr could've seen a car (yeah, yeah, I know: punny me!) ... from which Carr could've seen an automobile, okay?

You can see that Carr could only have been standing atop a very small portion of the building under construction, either on the very top girders or perhaps on the second row down, and only in a small section of the overall building; also, since the "skin" wasn't on the building, he could've been on the south side of the building looking through the uncompleted construction (it doesn't look as if any safety flooring has been laid in the aerial photo).

So, in light of this, I'd have to say that it's not impossible that Carr saw what he said he saw, but qualify that by saying that it was only possible from a very small section of the building. What, then, specifically, does Carr have to say about where he was and what he saw?

Folks who'll be in Dallas this week for the 45th might want to take a stroll along Houston as well to see if as much of the building or more remains visible such that he could've seen all that he'd claimed to have.

excellent work on a number of threads, Duke. Method, good on you.

_____________________

RR Carr (Anzio survivor) appears to have placed himself at various locations. That he could not have seen what he claimed to have seen from where he claimed to be has been demonstrated in the past. He was a steel worker with glasses as well + a wartime record which would produce excellent ears for trades like steel work, ie poorly functioning. I think a look into his past stretching back to Anzio where many persons of interest crossed pathes and events of interest occurred. JJA, Gladio, The Black Prince, Code Bungles, Stay Behind and the strategy of tension, and of course our good ole' pal, Walker. Louisiana, shrevesport & co.

[John Dolva]

dbl post

Edited November 19, 2008 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

Duke: .."Well, I've tried to get into the old Post Office annex without success (emphatically without success!),"...

Not surprised. The USPO was dismantled in Nixons early presidency. Noone seems to know much about anything before the USPO became the USPS and the old inspectors left, postal roles changed and the USPO and its records 'rationalised'. But as Nixons close aid wrote : there is an opportunity in everything. Further it was Day's replacement (under JFK) (Grunowsky) that refused CIA advances to continue the illegal mail opening campaigns. I guess what I'm saying is that the old USPO is dead and buried and certain parties are very keen that it remains so.

[Duke Lane]

I've expanded on this whole Carr thing in a new thread, "Richard Randolph Carr: The end of the story?" which you can jump to using the "arrow" link below: