Why Oswald is Innocent

[John Dolva]

This is more like it (IM oh so very HO).

I reckon the JFK forum part should be divided into two subforums, (with no connotations of one being more important than the other), one largely devoted to imagery debates and the other more 'textual' or something like that. The continuity would be better.

[Neville Gully]

I discovered this "re-enactment" done by History Channel, Gary Mack and Dave Perry of the time taken to get from the Sniper's Nest to the 2nd Floor vestibule. It is claimed that a time under 50 seconds is possible.

It was impossible to use the TSBD for this purpose so another Dallas warehouse was employed. My reading of the layout of the TSBD staircase was that each floor contained 2 components, one on the north wall a 90 degree turn and then another west wall section. On each floor there was a 20 feet walk to the next floor staircase. In the re-enactment the staircase appears contiguous, with no 20 feet or so distance to travel. Therefore is there an innacuracy built ito the History Channel study? There would be 3 of these 20 feet sections to negociate and the time to do this added to the 48 seconds claimed to be possible. How much time would this add? 15 seconds maybe? Of course a more accurate simulation for an assassin escaping via the stairs immediately afterward would have taken the time for Truly to reach the 2nd Floor landing.......not Baker and subtracted approximately 10 seconds (see SS re-enactment portion of the film above, "LHO" enters the 2nd Floor and opens vestibule door - I estimate about 10 seconds for the door to close).

Also, no mention was made of the assassin taking time to avoid the bumbling Dougherty on the 5th Floor (or 6th) landing. Credit to Duke Lane for his writings on the movement and observations (or lack of) on the upper floors at the time of the shooting.

Thoughts anyone?

[William Kelly]

I discovered this "re-enactment" done by History Channel, Gary Mack and Dave Perry of the time taken to get from the Sniper's Nest to the 2nd Floor vestibule. It is claimed that a time under 50 seconds is possible.

It was impossible to use the TSBD for this purpose so another Dallas warehouse was employed. My reading of the layout of the TSBD staircase was that each floor contained 2 components, one on the north wall a 90 degree turn and then another west wall section. On each floor there was a 20 feet walk to the next floor staircase. In the re-enactment the staircase appears contiguous, with no 20 feet or so distance to travel. Therefore is there an innacuracy built ito the History Channel study? There would be 3 of these 20 feet sections to negociate and the time to do this added to the 48 seconds claimed to be possible. How much time would this add? 15 seconds maybe? Of course a more accurate simulation for an assassin escaping via the stairs immediately afterward would have taken the time for Truly to reach the 2nd Floor landing.......not Baker and subtracted approximately 10 seconds (see SS re-enactment portion of the film above, "LHO" enters the 2nd Floor and opens vestibule door - I estimate about 10 seconds for the door to close).

Also, no mention was made of the assassin taking time to avoid the bumbling Dougherty on the 5th Floor (or 6th) landing. Credit to Duke Lane for his writings on the movement and observations (or lack of) on the upper floors at the time of the shooting.

Thoughts anyone?

Hi Neville,

But it no longer matters how long it took for the assassin to leave the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest, stash the rifle and run down the stairs because he probably didn't, as it most certainly wasn't Oswald if he entered the vestibule from the south door, and thus was in the second floor offices or the first floor lounge where he said he was and others saw him.

Indeed, whoever it was in the window with the rifle, could have taken their good old time, as one witness indicated, or they would have run into Dougherty or the two secretaries from the 4th floor offices.

Since there is a wall between the stairs and hallway and the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunchroom where Oswald was seen, he could not have decended the stairs at all.

If he had, Truly would have seen him as the first up the steps in front of Baker, and if the door was open even an inch, Baker would not have been able to see anything through the 2" x 2" window in the door, as the angle of the window would decrease to nothing if open at all, even an inch or two.

That's why they called the TSBD super back to testify on the record, one extra question - does the door close automatically - yes.

Taking the diagram of the TSBD second floor, and enlarge the North West Corner, so you can get the angles down clearly - and marking the positions of Truly, Baker and Oswald, it is clear that for Baker to have seen Oswald through the door window, the door was shut and Oswald had entered via the other door and thus did not descend the steps.

The Sixth Floor Museum should recreate the whole scene.

Gary Mack can run down the steps from the sixth floor in ten seconds and it still would not be enough to get Oswald on the other side of that wall and behind that door in time to be seen by Baker in the second floor vestibule.

Time is no longer an issue.

The issue is the geometric line of site - from the bottom of the stairs where Baker was standing and the 2" x 2" window in the door.

If Baker saw Oswald in the vestibule through that window, the door was closed and Oswald is innocent of being the sixth floor sniper.

And those who conducted the Secret Service reenactment knew this. That's why they stopped right there.

And this was pointed out decades ago by a young, Philadelphia college student Howard Roffman in Presumed Guilty.

Also note, in the same batch of YouTube videos is an interview with Marion Baker, the cop, in which he says that when he opened the door, Oswald was "walking away from him," and he did not see Oswald "walking away from him" through the window, which is what the Warren Commission mistates him saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCi0a3XKW0c&NR=1

And thanks for finding the video of Gary Mack's staged olympic run to the crime scene tape, and your interest in this Nevelle, and I too would like some other's thoughts on this issue.

BK

Edited March 30, 2009 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

... Of course a more accurate simulation for an assassin escaping via the stairs immediately afterward would have taken the time for Truly to reach the 2nd Floor landing.......not Baker and subtracted approximately 10 seconds (see SS re-enactment portion of the film above, "LHO" enters the 2nd Floor and opens vestibule door - I estimate about 10 seconds for the door to close).

Also, no mention was made of the assassin taking time to avoid the bumbling Dougherty on the 5th Floor (or 6th) landing. Credit to Duke Lane for his writings on the movement and observations (or lack of) on the upper floors at the time of the shooting.

Thoughts anyone?

My point is that the entire re-enactment scenario is moot because it didn't happen, and didn't need to happen. It was only necessary to prove that the sole suspect could have done what was claimed ... and if they'd looked farther than their noses, they'd have found other suspects.

Here's how I see it having gone down, based on extensive analysis of people's movements inside and outside the TSBD from about 11:30 onward (three unpublished segments I call The Great Elevator Shuffle, The Three Blind Mice, and The Invisible Man):

After everyone, including Oswald, had come downstairs by noon, the men grabbed - and in most cases ate - their lunches before heading outside by around 12:10. After everyone had gone out, Bonnie Ray Williams emerged from the wash room after doing what he referred to in his testimony as "washing up." One might assume that this meant quickly washing his hands, but based upon the testimony of the other men about what they'd done before going outside, and the fact that they'd gone outside by the time Bonnie Ray was done "washing up," it follows that Bonnie Ray was in the wash room for about 10 to 15 minutes.

He said that he, Billy Lovelady and Danny Arce were supposed to meet upstairs to watch the parade. Lovelady testified that he'd gone up to the second floor to get a coke before going outside, while Arce said that he'd eaten in the domino room, met up with Junior Jarman in the main part of the floor and had gone outside with Junior. Danny is the only person who claimed to have seen Jack Dougherty during the lunch break, also eating in the domino room.

If Jack was in there - it's difficult to reconcile that nobody else saw this "great big husky fellow" (Roy Truly's description of Jack) in that small room - it was the last anyone saw of him until after the shooting. Jack said that he didn't go outside because there were too many people and he "couldn't have seen anything" even if he'd "wanted to," an odd observation for someone who was apparently quite large. Instead, despite the fact that he "always" took "the full lunch hour," Jack uncharacteristically and inexplicably "went back to work ... getting some stock" while virtually everyone else who worked there went outside to wait for the parade (or, in a few cases, went to lunch).

I believe - though obviously can't prove - that when most of his co-workers went outside, Jack went to the other side of the building, let someone in the back door, stepped across the threshold, and took them upstairs in the freight elevator, which was directly across the way from the door; it would only take a second to do.

It appears, based on the evidence, that Oswald was the last to ride the elevator down because it was gone from the first floor after Hank Norman had gotten back downstairs on the passenger elevator after going upstairs to retrieve his cigarettes at a few minutes before noon. Since Oswald had asked Hank to make sure the gate to the freight elevator was closed when he got back downstairs, Hank suspected that Oswald had pushed the button to see if it was operating while Hank was still on the elevator.

Oswald's clipboard was later found directly opposite the freight elevator with three orders on it, as if he'd left it there to come back to after lunch was over. A few minutes later, at "just about noontime," Eddie Piper saw Oswald on the first floor; presumably, Oswald would have ridden the elevator down just as he'd said he'd intended to.

Bonnie Ray gathered his lunch from the now-empty domino room and, thinking that Lovelady and Arce had already gone upstairs, went over to the freight elevator, which he found was not there. Rather than wait for it to come back down after calling for it, he instead took the passenger elevator upstairs, perhaps thinking that nobody would need to use it since they were all out waiting for the parade; parked as it was on the first floor, nobody on any of the upper floors could have used it to come down either, so no harm done: if anyone else wanted to go upstairs, they could have used the freight elevator later.

When Bonnie Ray got to the sixth floor, I believe that either he stumbled onto Jack and his cohorts with guns, or else that he'd gotten up to the sixth floor before they did and they found him there when they came up from the fifth floor where the freight elevator had been left.

I don't believe that Jack was ever intended to be a shooter, but rather simply the "inside man" who was familiar with the building, could guide the doers in and out, and act as a lookout in case anyone happened to come along. This might have included listening for the elevators: Bonnie Ray made a point of testifying that the very same elevator he was on could be heard "if you were listening for the boss" to come up, that the "hand pedal" of the passenger elevator thumped into place when the elevator was stopped.

If Jack and company were already on the sixth floor, it's possible that Jack heard it when Bonnie Ray got to the sixth floor. It may have been that Jack had gone too far away from the elevators to prevent Bonnie Ray from getting off, or possibly Bonnie Ray saw something that he shouldn't have right after getting off the elevator. If so, he couldn't be allowed to go back downstairs: he damned sure wasn't going anywhere before the deed was done.

If they hadn't yet gone upstairs from the fifth floor, then Bonnie Ray was already within feet of the "sniper's nest" when they came up. It's also possible that, 10 or 15 minutes before the motorcade was schedule to come by (at 12:25), they weren't paying close attention to the sounds of the elevator - i.e., they weren't "listening for the boss" or anyone else - and didn't realize that it was above them when they went up the stairs, or that someone was already on the floor when they saw Bonnie Ray eating his lunch.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bonnie Ray was made to stand there while the doer(s) talked about how "Oswald" was going to be killing Bonnie Ray as he escaped after shooting the President, and I think - as I said earlier - that it was Bonnie Ray who Amos Euins saw from down on the street (Amos was particular in saying that he hadn't claimed to have seen a "white man" up there, but that the man he saw had a "white spot" on his head as if he might've been bald). Jack may well have been the guy that someone else saw - Arnold Rowland? - standing in a "parade rest" position with a gun, a position that would've been natural to Jack, who had spent WWII pulling guard duty at an Indiana Army base: was he "guarding" Bonnie Ray?

And that might've been the plan - clearly, Bonnie Ray couldn't have been shot before the President since it would've attracted attention - until Jack heard the other elevator running again.

Hank and Junior had been outside in front of the TSBD when word went around (or they heard over a nearby police radio) that the motorcade was on Main Street. They went inside and found both elevators gone from the first floor, called the freight elevator back down, and rode it to the fifth floor. While they hadn't seen anything, they were dangerously close to the action upstairs and could easily have impeded a later escape, or even taken the elevator back down, potentially cutting off a means of escape. Their arrival may have saved Bonnie Ray's life.

At this point, Jack took Bonnie Ray down to the fifth floor to join the other two "boys," as I'm sure the doers might've called them, and all may have been told that, if they valued their lives and those of their families, they'd never breathe a word about what they would soon witness. Jack's position "ten feet west of the west elevator" was a logical place to be to prevent any of them from attempting to leave either using the elevators or the stairs. Claiming not to have seen Jack there may well have been the men's "alibi" for Jack that he was "never there, we didn't see him, no sir."

When the shooting was done, there was no hurry to leave since anyone searching the building would've had to have come up the stairs to get to them because both elevators were on the fifth floor, the freight elevator now with its gate open, preventing it from being operated remotely (they also did not have to get to the second floor in time to meet Officer Baker). The gun was stashed and they made their way down the stairs to the fifth floor.

By the time they got there, Truly may have already begun ringing the bell and yelling up the shaft to whomever was apparently using the elevator; it's also possible that this was a pre-arranged signal alerting the men above that the search was on (ringing it twice to indicate that two of them were on the way up, or a bunch of times to indicate a larger number?).

As Baker and Truly made a commotion coming up the stairs, their noise would have masked the operation of the freight elevator which, rather than risk passing the ascending men, was simply moved up to the sixth or seventh floor, where it would be out of sight. When Baker and Truly got to the fifth floor, Truly noticed the freight elevator not being where he'd seen it before, but didn't say anything to Officer Baker about it. Even though Truly claimed that his perception was that the shots had not been fired from his building, it is still odd that he did not mention the missing elevator to the officer, who did think the shots came from there. It had been there only a minute or two before and now was gone, yet Truly said nothing. Baker, being unfamiliar with the building and not having looked up the elevator shaft to see where the elevators were, likely didn't notice the elevator "missing;" no such excuse can be made for Truly.

Instead, Truly drew Baker around to the east elevator which, according to Truly, had a solid metal back. As they rode up, bypassing the sixth floor and extending the operation of the elevator and its attendant noise two floors to the seventh, Jack and the man (or men) rode the freight elevator down.

They did not all ride it down all the way, if any of them did: Jack claimed that he'd asked Eddie Piper on the first if he'd heard the "noise" (a strange thing to ask someone - "hey, did you hear a car backfire a few minutes ago?" - if he'd really thought they were backfires, as if anyone would have been paying attention to them. It would, however, be something seemingly smart to ask to deflect attention from himself), but Piper did not corroborate that. Truly said that he had a dim memory of Jack working on the fifth floor when he and Baker were on their way back down from the roof, but if so, it's odd that Baker didn't confront Jack as well.

From the descriptions of the first law enforcement officers into the building after Baker, it is as likely as not (if not more so) that Jack did, in fact, ride the elevator down, but he would not have brought anyone else down with him, especially if they weren't "regulars" in the building ... and even if they were, their arrival from the upper floors may have drawn notice and remarks ... and testimony. Instead, they'd have gotten off at around the fourth floor - rode down two floors while Baker and Truly rode up two floors at about the same rate of speed, the operating noises of one elevator covered by those of the other - or possibly the third or fifth.

Luke Mooney had been at the Sheriff's office at Main & Houston and had run up the grassy knoll and into the rail yards where he spent "a couple minutes" looking into cars before being dispatched to the rear of the building. Seeing someone securing(?) the back gates, he went inside and got into the freight elevator (corroboration of Jack's having come down?) and, while another sheriff's deputy started upstairs on foot, he rode it, together with one of the women who worked in the TSBD and wanted to go to the second floor, up to that level where the woman got off.

For some reason (someone cutting the elevator power?), Mooney wasn't able to get the elevator to work, so he got off and started up the stairs where he soon encountered two "officers in plain clothes, like me" coming down the stairs, presumably (to Mooney) after having searched the upper floors. If there were indeed cops or sheriff's deputies in the TSBD after Baker but before Luke Mooney became the first officer to go out onto the sixth floor, they filed no reports and have never been identified. My bet is that, if they were really cops, they simply joined in the activities in the building with other cops; if not, they could have been mistaken for cops by others, just as Mooney had done. Depending upon who had been "guarding" the back gate - also never identified - it's possible that the men Mooney saw simply walked out the back and started "searching" until they were out of sight, or even taken that man into "custody" and took him away as an apparent suspect.

A fanciful story? Perhaps, but it's backed up by evidence and testimony, just not any that directly addresses the situation ... but if it was as I've suggested, who'd have expected it to come out? The more amazing thing, though, is that this suspicious set of circumstances was right in front of everyone's nose and either nobody noticed ... or someone decided not to follow it up.

[Greg Parker]

Meanwhile for a good idea of what really happened, check out the following threads at alt.ass.jfk:

Who first reported "drinking a coke"?

Why did Oswald buy a coke?

Oswald, Mrs Reid, spare change and a full coke

[Neville Gully]

Thanks to Bill and Duke for your comments/analysis and theories. I was merely trying to point out what seems to be inaccuracies in the History channel re-enactment. I agree that the evidence lends itself towards LHO was waiting in the lunchroom area and not on the 6th Floor at the time of the shooting. One thing that puzzles me somewhat is Bill's reference to a 2"x2" window in the vestibule door window. In the graphic below it appears to the about 18"x18". Also one can see boxes stacked and a support column that likely pushed Baker towards the door in the rush upstairs and causing his line of sight towards the window in question. For Baker to see movement through the window however LHO must have been in a restricted area of either the vestibule or lunchroom.

[William Kelly]

Thanks to Bill and Duke for your comments/analysis and theories. I was merely trying to point out what seems to be inaccuracies in the History channel re-enactment. I agree that the evidence lends itself towards LHO was waiting in the lunchroom area and not on the 6th Floor at the time of the shooting. One thing that puzzles me somewhat is Bill's reference to a 2"x2" window in the vestibule door window. In the graphic below it appears to the about 18"x18". Also one can see boxes stacked and a support column that likely pushed Baker towards the door in the rush upstairs and causing his line of sight towards the window in question. For Baker to see movement through the window however LHO must have been in a restricted area of either the vestibule or lunchroom.

Yes Neville, I did mean 2 feet by 2 feet - 24 inches or so - but certainly not more - but the window, whatever size it was, would have been geometrically redued to near zero if the door is opened even an inch. And the point is, that Oswald must have been walking into the vestibule from the other door for Baker to have seen him or anything at all through that window.

And I certainly wouldn't use the cartoon graphics that they used on the Gary Mack show, as they don't appear to be even close to the real drawings of the scene as laid out in official Warren Commission exhibits.

In focusing on the timing of Oswald Gary Mack doesn't even address this issue, which takes "Oswald" out of the Sixth Floor picture, which Howard Roffman first introduced many years ago and has never been refuted.

Oswald was most certainly in a most restricted area, and he didn't get there by coming down the stairs from the Sixth Floor, if you believe Marion Baker.

BK

[Neville Gully]

Meanwhile for a good idea of what really happened, check out the following threads at alt.ass.jfk:

Who first reported "drinking a coke"?

Why did Oswald buy a coke?

Oswald, Mrs Reid, spare change and a full coke

Thanks for the tip Greg.......Interesting info in those threads.

[Greg Parker]

Neville,

this simple exchange from one of those threads demonstrates the occasional utility of debate.

> So, Baker`s affidavit omits some door opening and such. So what?

Not only does he get the floor 'wrong' - and we're not talking "fifth

or sixth" versus "fourth" here, we're talking "one floor up" versus

"several floors up", a quite remarkable 'error'.

He also gives us nothing whatsoever to tie this incident to the second

floor. No door. No window in door. No hallway. No opening of door. No

room. No nothing.

Baker does however *add* a couple of things: extra weight + a tan

jacket.

And don't tell me the weight discrepancy is due to the fleeting nature

of the TSBD encounter. Baker has the gaunt Oswald in front of his eyes

in the Homicide Office. Yet he sticks with 165 pounds.

These are precisely the kinds of problems you LNers would be rightly

jumping all over were this a conspiracy-leaning witness.

In short, there was never any second floor encounter.

Baker encountered the person likely to have been the real sniper or lookout on the 3rd or 4th floor.

Oswald had his encounter on the first floor, as other evidence shows.

[William Kelly]

Here's the schematic diagram of the Second Floor stairs, door, vestibule and lunchroom.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=139038

Here's a photo of the door and window from near where Baker would have been (21):

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/a...cd81-1_0145.jpg

Here's a photo from the back of the lunchroom looking towards the door and window (26).

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/9/9...cd81-1_0149.jpg

xxxx

[William Kelly]

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses

://http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...gliosi_Parses

://http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...gliosi_Parses

://http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...gliosi_Parses

Don Thomas, in this excellent essay, goes into much of what we are discussing here, and has some good photos to better explain the situation.

...Patrolman Marrion Baker and superintendent Roy Truly encountered Oswald in the second floor lunch room less than two minutes after the shooting. In his interrogation Oswald said that after the President went by he went to the second floor to buy a coke. The Warren Commission reconstructed this chance meeting allowing Baker 90 seconds to park his motorcycle, run into the building, and along with Roy Truly, run to the back of the building and up the stairs to the second floor where they saw Oswald. The official mythology holds that Oswald left the sixth floor sniper's nest immediately after shooting the President, moved to the back of the room where he then hid the rifle under a stack of book boxes, ran down the stairs to the second floor, arriving at the same time as Baker and Truly - and therein lies the contradiction. Baker was following Truly up the stairs, and as he testified, in a scanning mode with his gun drawn expecting to encounter assassins at every turn. Arriving on the second floor landing, separated from the office space by a heavy door, Baker testified that he caught a glimpse of someone through the window of this vestibule door moving from right to left. The someone turned out to be Oswald. Bugliosi misleads the reader (on p. 837) by neglecting to mention the problem posed by the heavy door.

The Warren Commission concluded, that Oswald had gone through the door from the stairwell into the "vestibule" on his way into the lunchroom. But Baker did not see Oswald go through the door, nor could he say that the door was even partly ajar when he caught a glimpse of Oswald through the window,

"I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was -- this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time." (

3WH255)

The Warren Report's account (

CE 1118; WR150) begins reasonably enough, stating that, "Since the vestibule door is only a few feet from the lunchroom door, the man must have entered the vestibule only a second or two before Baker arrived." (WR151)

But then, the Report goes on to ponder uncomprehendingly, "Yet he must have entered the vestibule door before Truly reached the top of the stairwell, since Truly did not see him." (WR151)

Of course, Oswald "must have entered the vestibule door," only if he was the assassin and had lied about being on the first floor at the time of the assassination. In posing the dilemma, the Commission presumed that Oswald was the assassin, that he had been on the sixth floor, and the fact that he had somehow just slipped passed Truly and through the door without Truly or Baker seeing the door open, is dismissed as if it were one of the holy mysteries. As far as the Warren Commission and Bugliosi are concerned, Oswald had come down the stairs and had entered through the vestibule door regardless of what the testimony indicated. Oswald would have had to have passed Superintendent Truly who was going up the stairs several paces ahead of Baker in order to be passing through the door at the time Baker saw him, yet, Truly saw no one. Also, if Oswald had just gone through this door, then Baker or Truly should have seen the door ajar and closing. This is so because the vestibule door had an automatic, anti-slam, closing device (7WH591; WR151). Furthermore, had Oswald gone through the door just ahead of Truly's arrival on the stairwell, it is unlikely that Baker would have glimpsed Oswald through the window of the door at all, for the reason that Oswald would have continued to the left toward the lunchroom on going through the door. To be seen through the window, he would have had to turn and be moving to the right, which of course, would not lead to the lunchroom, his known destination. and, as the Warren Commission admits, "If the man had passed from the vestibule into the lunchroom, Baker could not have seen him." (WR151) ...

....Alternatively, if Oswald had been passing through the vestibule from the office hallway on his way to the lunchroom, he would not have opened the vestibule door at all and Baker's testimony begins to make sense and the dilemma disappears. By passing from the office hallway through the vestibule into the lunchroom, Baker would have caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald through the window of the closed vestibule door, just as he testified he did.

.....The authors of the Warren Report and Bugliosi failed to consider that this hallway leads to another set of stairs down to the first floor; and in fact, this route in reverse was the one taken by Oswald when he left the building. If Oswald used this same route to arrive at the lunchroom as Baker's testimony supports, he could have come up from the first floor exactly as he claimed, but could not have come down from the upper floors by the front stairs because this flight of stairs ends at the second floor. It is for this reason that the statement of secretary Carolyn Arnold is of such significance. Arnold told the FBI that she thought she saw Oswald through the front door, which is at the base of the front stairway, between 12:15 and 12:25. Her eyewitness account suggests that Oswald had been standing inside the front door, watching the motorcade pass by the building, and that he had then proceeded up these stairs to the second floor and taken the hallway to the lunchroom, exactly as he claimed he did. While not proving that Oswald had been on the first floor, this reconstruction, not the official version, is consistent with Baker's testimony.

In spite of Baker's account, the Warren Commission published a diagram, CE-1118 on page 150 of the Warren Report, which depicts the passage through the vestibule door from the stairwell as the "known route of Oswald," instead of the unsupported assumption that it really was. Bugliosi knows one thing for sure. If Oswald did not go through that door, he was not the assassin…..

Edited April 1, 2009 by William Kelly

[Neville Gully]

Thanks for the links Bill. In fact you can see that the angles are very deceiving in this matter. There is an open box in my graphic part C. This same open box is visible in the lower left of the window in B. It seems to me that if anyone was visible to Baker on his way to the sairs up to level 3 they would more likely have been in the vestibule area, close to the door and not in the lunchroom. If Jack Dougherty was acting as a lookout near the stairs on 5th (or 6th) floor, as Duke has theorized, could LHO have acted in a similar role on the 2nd, peering out the vestibule window?

[William Kelly]

Thanks for the links Bill. In fact you can see that the angles are very deceiving in this matter. There is an open box in my graphic part C. This same open box is visible in the lower left of the window in B. It seems to me that if anyone was visible to Baker on his way to the sairs up to level 3 they would more likely have been in the vestibule area, close to the door and not in the lunchroom. If Jack Dougherty was acting as a lookout near the stairs on 5th (or 6th) floor, as Duke has theorized, could LHO have acted in a similar role on the 2nd, peering out the vestibule window?

Well, without speculating too much, Baker said quite clearly that he didn't even know it was a person, just something moving in the window, which got his attention.

To me, that means that Oswald was walking through the vestibule having entered from the south door, walking through the same offices, where he got change from a secretary ("every day") and past the desks he would pass on the way out with the coke.

As the photos and the real angles show, if the door was open even a few inches, the angle on the window would change drastically - so Baker wouldn't have seen anything, other than a door closing, which he didn't.

I don't put too much credence in anybody being a "lookout," as that would be a pretty rinky dink operation, when I think they had everything covered from the get go.

Oswald was going to be the patsy no matter what happened, even if he had an alibi or there was proof of conspiracy.

As Don Thomas says in the essay I just posted, "If Oswald doesn't go through that door, he's not the sixth floor assassin..."

And Baker and Truly's testimony - that Baker saw him through the window and Truly, ahead of Baker, didn't see him or a closing door, convinces me, at least, that Oswald didn't go through that door.

I also transcribed Baker's Youtube interview:

Marion Baker:

I worked in the Dallas Police Department as a motorcycle officer at the time of the motorcade that day. I was probably five or six cars back from the lead car in the motorcade. I had gotten about halfway between Main and Houston when I heard three shots. I knew they were from in front of me and high. I looked up and I seen this huge flock of pidgeons flying in front of this building.

I rode the motorcycle over to the corner at the intersection, parked and then ran in the building. When I got in through the front door into the lobby of the building I asked for the elevator or stairs. One man spoke up, said I'm Mr. Truly, I'm the building manager, come on officer I'll show you.

So he and I we continued on to the back of the building and went up the stairways in the back of the building to the second floor, and as when we came out on the second floor, I saw, through the doorway, a window in the doorway, a man, some movement.

So I went over and opened up the door and this man was walking away from me, in the next room. I later found out it… (was the coffee room? Lunchroom?). [Commentary: Oswald was still in the lunchroom?]

…I called to the man and he turned around.

Mr. Truly was there beside me and I asked if he knew this man and he said he worked there.

He was calm, ordinary, wasn't excited or anything like that....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCi0a3XKW0c&NR=1

Edited April 1, 2009 by William Kelly

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Another Youtube clip with interviews of Marion Baker and Roy S. Truly:

(Interviews from 2:18)

Disappointing to see so few researchers commenting on mr D.Lane's posts. I am sure I am not the only one that find them fascinating. For instance, which else explanations is out there to the movements/statements of Bonnie Ray or Jack D.?,- just to mention two.

[Neville Gully]

I don't put too much credence in anybody being a "lookout," as that would be a pretty rinky dink operation, when I think they had everything covered from the get go.

Oswald was going to be the patsy no matter what happened, even if he had an alibi or there was proof of conspiracy.

I am somewhat reluctant to lay out what I think happened but here goes anyway. Oswald was sold the story by someone in intel (or with intel contacts) to try and gain access to Cuba. To LHO that was his mission and the Walker shooting was part of this plan. I am not convinced at all that he intended to kill Walker or even if it was him who took the shot but certainly he left evidence of his involvement that could be used to point the finger when required. The trip to New Orleans and the FPFC activities, leaflets, scuffles and debates with anti-Castro types all help to paint the picture nicely. Straight from the Operation Northwoods playbook. Second invasion of Cuba in the works and all that is needed is a catalyst for invasion.

Remember that Lee is looking for a way to get into Cuba, so maybe some event could be staged that would help him complete his quest. Kennedy coming to Dallas. Shots fired from a rifle owned by (but not shot by) a Commie, a member of the FPFC during the motorcade might just do it. As told to LHO, no one is going to be hurt, it's more like a protest. Lee is guaranteed an escape from the USA, unjustly accused and seeking refuge in Cuba. Come on Fidel let me in or stay. To the proponents of the Second Invasion the plan is that Kennedy will be shot only Lee doesn't see this coming. This will be the catalyst and Oswald (and others if neccessary) will quickly be implicated. Note the spate of false info coming out almost immediately implicating Castro (and sometimes Russia) in the deed.

The Second Invasion planners misread the reaction to the assasination however. Johnson and Hoover do not support anything but the lone nut senario. There is a shutdown on anything that smells anything like the C-word (conspiracy not communism). I tend to believe this is the second conspiracy - the coverup.

In this senario we can get Oswald shooting at Walker, if you want to believe that. We get Oswald seeking employment somewhere along the motorcade route and maybe even offering to supply his rifle for the "protest". It only takes a few individuals with knowledge of the plans for the Second Invasion, the Operation Northwoods proposal and the activites of LHO to put the pieces together. No need for a high level conspiracy, just an assumption from the planners that the outcry and political leaders wil take the bait. As we know they didn't........just as Kennedy didn't throw air cover at BOP when pressured or jump into WWIII during the missile crisis. Instead he vowed never to invade Cuba and in doing so most likely sealed his fate.

A final thought. Thanks to Duke Lane's analysis of the activites of Jack D. at the crucial time we can now see that either

1) he saw LHO go down the stairs and lied - can't believe he would do that if he wasn't involved himself - if he is = conspiracy (maybe he was the shooter!)

2) He saw no-one - so shooters on the 6th Floor were still there until after he took the lift to the first floor - therefore shooter is NOT Oswald

3) He was involved as a lookout for the shooter(s) = conspiracy

Big question is, given the importance of his tesimony and his location at the crucial time........what the hell were the Warren Commission doing? He was the crucial witness, unless he lied about where he was and what he did.