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Robert wrote: I am adding this because it may be helpful in getting a picture of the various Departmental positions, ideally it would have been circa November 1963, but I felt that it was still worth mentioning.

Government Personnel As of July 22, 1961

DCI Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles

DDCI Deputy Director of Central Intelligence Charles Pearce Cabell

DD/P Deputy Director Plans Richard Bissell

A/DDP/A Assistant Deputy Director Plans Tracy Barnes

COPS Chief of Operations (Plans) Richard Helms

C/WH Chief Western Hemisphere Division J.C. King

C/WH/4 Chief Cuba Task Force Jacob D. Esterline

C/WH/4/PM Chief, Paramilitary Cuba Task Force Jack Hawkins

D/WH/4 Deputy Chief Cuba Task Force Edward Stanulis

COPS/WH/4 Chief of Operations Cuba Task Force, Richard Drain

C/WH/4/PP Chief Propaganda Cuba Task Force, David Atlee Phillips

AC/DCP Acting Chief Developmental Projects Division (Air) Stanley Beerli

C/FA/WH/4 Chief Political Affairs Officer Gerald Droller aka Frank Bender

C/PI/WH/4 Chief, Foreign Intelligence Cuba Task Force, Bernard Reichardt

PP/PM/WH/4 Propaganda Officer E. Howard Hunt

C/SPU/WH/4/PM Chief, Strikes and Plans Unit, Cuba Task Force, Frank Egan

C MARITIME OPS Chief of Maritime Operations Captain Jacob Scapa

COB/WH/4 Chief of Base Miami Robert Reynolds

C.G. Commandant General United States Marine Corps David Shoup

I.G. CIA Inspector General Lyman Kirpatrick

THANK YOU ROBERT. HERE'S THE JCS ACCESS LIST OF CUBA OPS PLAYERS

OCTOBER, 1963 - Though Shoup's replacement was named on Sept. 24, he remained on the list into 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3

JCS

202-10001-10055

J-3

DOC 56

OSD

DOD ACCESS LIST CUBA PLAYERS

10/21/63

1 page

CUBA CONTINGENCY PLANNING

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

OPEN IN FULL

OPEN

04/17/98

DOD Access List – Cuba Planning

21 October 1963

DOD ACCESS LIST – CUBA PLANNING

Chairman's Office

General Taylor

Maj Gen Goodpaster

Col Roger

Mr. R. Day

Mr. F. Kearney

Lt. Col Smith

Director's Office

VAdml Riley

Maj Gen Reynolds

Maj Gen Manhart

Col Erwin

Lt Col Hutchins

LCdr Hilton

Maj Dorsey

Secretary's Office

Brig Gen Ingelido

Col Forbes

Capt Law

Miss Ruth Hunter

SACEA

Maj Gen Krulak

Col Higgins

Col. Xxxx – Strozier

Capt Eggeman

Col Wyman

Col Hawkins

Miss Grace Sciacca

Mrs. Carolyn Kercheval

Miss Linda Sadler

Cpl Gould

DOD Executive Agent

For Cuban Affairs

Secretary Vance

Mr. Califano

Lt Col Haig

Miss Myrtle Davis

CINCLANT

Adm H. F. Smith

VAdm R.C. Needham \

RAdm J.W. Leverton

Capt J.E. Pond

Capt F.E. Hartman

Capt L. A. Kurtz

Lt Col M.A. Foster, USAF

Cmdr F. J. Winkerhieser

Army

Gen. Wheeler

Lt Gen Johnson

Maj Gen Alger

Col Blanchard

Col Bond

Lt Col Baldwin

Lt Col Woolard

Lt Col Garrett

Mrs. Marie Nier

Miss Mary Hnnig

Navy

Adm McDonald

VAdm Ward

VAdm Ramidge

RAdm Jackson

RAdm Taylor

RAdm Stream

Capt Packard

Capt Hatch

LCdr Bublitz

LCdr Saunders

Lt Dahl

Mr. DeMille (CIV)

YNC Hover

Air Force

Gen LeMay

Lt Gen Burchinal

Maj Gen Carpenter

Maj Gen Worden

Col Van Duyn

Lt Col Christensen

Lt Col Puchrik

Maj Stutzer

Miss Spruill

Marine Corps

Gen Shoup

Lt Gen Hayes

Lt Gen Greene

Maj Gen Buse

Brig Gen xxxx Quilter

Col Simmons

Lt Col Finn

J-3

Maj Gen Unger

RAdm Chew

Capt Moody

Capt Turner

Thanks Bill, I had been attempting to find the oral communication that was referenced earlier in this thread, when I ran across the following in the Taylor Papers on mary ferrell's website.......Although it is speculative on my part, I felt that it should be brought to your attention....

I have posted 2 URL's of the same document......the one of interest to me is the one on page 6, I believe.

Transfer of Top Secret Sensitive JCS Documents....I wonder if JFK was aware of this transfer of documents

PRELIMINARY PLANNING ON DOD SUPPORT OF CIA COVERT OPERATIONS AGAINST CUBA

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6

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Robert wrote: I am adding this because it may be helpful in getting a picture of the various Departmental positions, ideally it would have been circa November 1963, but I felt that it was still worth mentioning.

Government Personnel As of July 22, 1961

DCI Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles

DDCI Deputy Director of Central Intelligence Charles Pearce Cabell

DD/P Deputy Director Plans Richard Bissell

A/DDP/A Assistant Deputy Director Plans Tracy Barnes

COPS Chief of Operations (Plans) Richard Helms

C/WH Chief Western Hemisphere Division J.C. King

C/WH/4 Chief Cuba Task Force Jacob D. Esterline

C/WH/4/PM Chief, Paramilitary Cuba Task Force Jack Hawkins

D/WH/4 Deputy Chief Cuba Task Force Edward Stanulis

COPS/WH/4 Chief of Operations Cuba Task Force, Richard Drain

C/WH/4/PP Chief Propaganda Cuba Task Force, David Atlee Phillips

AC/DCP Acting Chief Developmental Projects Division (Air) Stanley Beerli

C/FA/WH/4 Chief Political Affairs Officer Gerald Droller aka Frank Bender

C/PI/WH/4 Chief, Foreign Intelligence Cuba Task Force, Bernard Reichardt

PP/PM/WH/4 Propaganda Officer E. Howard Hunt

C/SPU/WH/4/PM Chief, Strikes and Plans Unit, Cuba Task Force, Frank Egan

C MARITIME OPS Chief of Maritime Operations Captain Jacob Scapa

COB/WH/4 Chief of Base Miami Robert Reynolds

C.G. Commandant General United States Marine Corps David Shoup

I.G. CIA Inspector General Lyman Kirpatrick

THANK YOU ROBERT. HERE'S THE JCS ACCESS LIST OF CUBA OPS PLAYERS

OCTOBER, 1963 - Though Shoup's replacement was named on Sept. 24, he remained on the list into 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3

JCS

202-10001-10055

J-3

DOC 56

OSD

DOD ACCESS LIST CUBA PLAYERS

10/21/63

1 page

CUBA CONTINGENCY PLANNING

PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

OPEN IN FULL

OPEN

04/17/98

DOD Access List – Cuba Planning

21 October 1963

DOD ACCESS LIST – CUBA PLANNING

Chairman's Office

General Taylor

Maj Gen Goodpaster

Col Roger

Mr. R. Day

Mr. F. Kearney

Lt. Col Smith

Director's Office

VAdml Riley

Maj Gen Reynolds

Maj Gen Manhart

Col Erwin

Lt Col Hutchins

LCdr Hilton

Maj Dorsey

Secretary's Office

Brig Gen Ingelido

Col Forbes

Capt Law

Miss Ruth Hunter

SACEA

Maj Gen Krulak

Col Higgins

Col. Xxxx – Strozier

Capt Eggeman

Col Wyman

Col Hawkins

Miss Grace Sciacca

Mrs. Carolyn Kercheval

Miss Linda Sadler

Cpl Gould

DOD Executive Agent

For Cuban Affairs

Secretary Vance

Mr. Califano

Lt Col Haig

Miss Myrtle Davis

CINCLANT

Adm H. F. Smith

VAdm R.C. Needham \

RAdm J.W. Leverton

Capt J.E. Pond

Capt F.E. Hartman

Capt L. A. Kurtz

Lt Col M.A. Foster, USAF

Cmdr F. J. Winkerhieser

Army

Gen. Wheeler

Lt Gen Johnson

Maj Gen Alger

Col Blanchard

Col Bond

Lt Col Baldwin

Lt Col Woolard

Lt Col Garrett

Mrs. Marie Nier

Miss Mary Hnnig

Navy

Adm McDonald

VAdm Ward

VAdm Ramidge

RAdm Jackson

RAdm Taylor

RAdm Stream

Capt Packard

Capt Hatch

LCdr Bublitz

LCdr Saunders

Lt Dahl

Mr. DeMille (CIV)

YNC Hover

Air Force

Gen LeMay

Lt Gen Burchinal

Maj Gen Carpenter

Maj Gen Worden

Col Van Duyn

Lt Col Christensen

Lt Col Puchrik

Maj Stutzer

Miss Spruill

Marine Corps

Gen Shoup

Lt Gen Hayes

Lt Gen Greene

Maj Gen Buse

Brig Gen xxxx Quilter

Col Simmons

Lt Col Finn

J-3

Maj Gen Unger

RAdm Chew

Capt Moody

Capt Turner

Thanks Bill, I had been attempting to find the oral communication that was referenced earlier in this thread, when I ran across the following in the Taylor Papers on mary ferrell's website.......Although it is speculative on my part, I felt that it should be brought to your attention....

I have posted 2 URL's of the same document......the one of interest to me is the one on page 6, I believe.

Transfer of Top Secret Sensitive JCS Documents....I wonder if JFK was aware of this transfer of documents

PRELIMINARY PLANNING ON DOD SUPPORT OF CIA COVERT OPERATIONS AGAINST CUBA

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6

Bill, it has come to my attention that there is another thread which you may find has some overlapping aspects to it that pertain to this thread, I think you will agree with me.

Here is the link

It is the Japanese Linguist John Hurt thread, with particular emphasis on the most recent couple of pages.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=75#entry163661

And, I am sure you are aware, but for the sake of not assuming, you do know that the JCOS, were very much opposed to certain provisions to the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

If you direct your attention to the following pages.....there is a specific citation, of such issues.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=915

Beginning on the above page and continuing for the next two following pages....especially the next page..."they are found deficient supporting the national interest".......middle of page

Edited by Robert Howard
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.....Any analysis of the events in reference to the events in Vietnam, particularly with regards to the fall of 1963, cannot be considered all-encompassing unless one is familiar with the American Friends of Vietnam. An indispensable source for the AFV is

The Vietnam Lobby: The American Friends of Vietnam, 1955-1975 Joseph G. Morgan Chapel Hill University of North Carolina Press, 1997.

Below are a couple of excerpts...The reference below are to members of the American Friends of Vietnam (AFV.)

"The AFV's early membership reflected the broad spectrum of Americans who believed that the United States had an obligation to help Diem in his struggle against the French and the communists. Well-known figures such as Kennedy, Douglas, Mansfield, General William J. Donovan, and Norman Thomas, the American socialist leader, joined the AFV, but the group's most influential members were on its executive committee. These officers included the economist Leo Cherne, political activists such as Joseph Buttinger and Christopher Emmet, General John W. O'Daniel, academics such as Wesley Fishel and William Henderson, and Harold Oram and Gilbert Jonas, two public relations executives who worked for the Diem regime. Many of these people had been Diem's earliest admirers and would support him for years."

"Many of these people, including Joseph Buttinger, Leo Cherne, Christopher Emmet, Angier Biddle Duke, Harold Oram, Richard R. Salzmann, and Admiral Byrd, had been associated with the International Rescue Committee. Another officer, William vanden Heuvel, had been active in IRC projects and had worked closely with General Donovan during the latter's service as ambassador to Thailand and as a lawyer in New York. Another member, Elliot Newcomb, was one of Oram's colleagues. Others who served on the AFV's board included such early acquaintances of Diem as Professor I. Milton Sacks and the journalist Sol Sanders. Dr. M. L. Anson, a nutritionist, acted as the AFV's treasurer for the first year. Finally, another early AFV officer was Norbert Muhlen, a German émigré who frequently contributed articles to The New Leader, a journal whose editorial policy of "militant anti-communism, plus sympathy for government-inspired social reform, best summarizes the philosophy of most of the executive committee members."

“On August 23, the RVN's senior commanders approached U.S. intelligence agents and, after disavowing the ARVN's involvement in the repression, asked about American reaction to a possible attempt to oust Nhu. Kennedy's advisers, outraged by the pagoda raids, responded favorably to this inquiry. On August 24, senior Washington officials, including the president himself, gave their hasty approval to a State Department message telling the embassy in Saigon that the "US government cannot tolerate [a] situation in which power lies in Nhu's hands" and that "we are prepared to accept the obvious implication that we can no longer support Diem" if Diem refused to break his ties with Nhu."

But, what might be the most important information I located was the following.

"In a talk with the president a month after the November 11 coup, Durbrow suggested that Diem "hire [a] good foreign public relations expert in order to develop better press relations," but the ambassador seemed to be referring to a representative hired to work in Saigon and not to the services of an overseas concern. Other sources, however, contain recommendations that Diem seek the assistance of a company other than Oram's. Writing to Diem in September 1960, Edward Lansdale advised, "I have long believed that you need a good, private American public relations firm to help you." He then proposed that Diem secure the services of King and Maheu Associates in Washington.

Robert: What little I know of the various dynamics of the Diem/Nhu relationship, is that while most people understandably look at the two as diametrically opposed entities, there was one area in which they were very much on the same page, and that was in regards to a potential negotiated settlement with the North Vietnamese Government, that was very much an issue in that period before the assassination of not only Diem, but JFK as well....

As a case in point, I would cite the fact that Pres. Kennedy himself, brought the issue up when he stated that an alternative to becoming more immersed in Vietnam, was the government of the RVN "asking us to leave."

I also find that the Nhu's certainly seemed to feel very good about things after November 63, and seemed particularly at home in the great State of Texas.

Edited by Robert Howard
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  • 1 month later...
.....Any analysis of the events in reference to the events in Vietnam, particularly with regards to the fall of 1963, cannot be considered all-encompassing unless one is familiar with the American Friends of Vietnam. An indispensable source for the AFV is

The Vietnam Lobby: The American Friends of Vietnam, 1955-1975 Joseph G. Morgan Chapel Hill University of North Carolina Press, 1997.

Below are a couple of excerpts...The reference below are to members of the American Friends of Vietnam (AFV.)

"The AFV's early membership reflected the broad spectrum of Americans who believed that the United States had an obligation to help Diem in his struggle against the French and the communists. Well-known figures such as Kennedy, Douglas, Mansfield, General William J. Donovan, and Norman Thomas, the American socialist leader, joined the AFV, but the group's most influential members were on its executive committee. These officers included the economist Leo Cherne, political activists such as Joseph Buttinger and Christopher Emmet, General John W. O'Daniel, academics such as Wesley Fishel and William Henderson, and Harold Oram and Gilbert Jonas, two public relations executives who worked for the Diem regime. Many of these people had been Diem's earliest admirers and would support him for years."

"Many of these people, including Joseph Buttinger, Leo Cherne, Christopher Emmet, Angier Biddle Duke, Harold Oram, Richard R. Salzmann, and Admiral Byrd, had been associated with the International Rescue Committee. Another officer, William vanden Heuvel, had been active in IRC projects and had worked closely with General Donovan during the latter's service as ambassador to Thailand and as a lawyer in New York. Another member, Elliot Newcomb, was one of Oram's colleagues. Others who served on the AFV's board included such early acquaintances of Diem as Professor I. Milton Sacks and the journalist Sol Sanders. Dr. M. L. Anson, a nutritionist, acted as the AFV's treasurer for the first year. Finally, another early AFV officer was Norbert Muhlen, a German émigré who frequently contributed articles to The New Leader, a journal whose editorial policy of "militant anti-communism, plus sympathy for government-inspired social reform, best summarizes the philosophy of most of the executive committee members."

“On August 23, the RVN's senior commanders approached U.S. intelligence agents and, after disavowing the ARVN's involvement in the repression, asked about American reaction to a possible attempt to oust Nhu. Kennedy's advisers, outraged by the pagoda raids, responded favorably to this inquiry. On August 24, senior Washington officials, including the president himself, gave their hasty approval to a State Department message telling the embassy in Saigon that the "US government cannot tolerate [a] situation in which power lies in Nhu's hands" and that "we are prepared to accept the obvious implication that we can no longer support Diem" if Diem refused to break his ties with Nhu."

But, what might be the most important information I located was the following.

"In a talk with the president a month after the November 11 coup, Durbrow suggested that Diem "hire [a] good foreign public relations expert in order to develop better press relations," but the ambassador seemed to be referring to a representative hired to work in Saigon and not to the services of an overseas concern. Other sources, however, contain recommendations that Diem seek the assistance of a company other than Oram's. Writing to Diem in September 1960, Edward Lansdale advised, "I have long believed that you need a good, private American public relations firm to help you." He then proposed that Diem secure the services of King and Maheu Associates in Washington.

Robert: What little I know of the various dynamics of the Diem/Nhu relationship, is that while most people understandably look at the two as diametrically opposed entities, there was one area in which they were very much on the same page, and that was in regards to a potential negotiated settlement with the North Vietnamese Government, that was very much an issue in that period before the assassination of not only Diem, but JFK as well....

As a case in point, I would cite the fact that Pres. Kennedy himself, brought the issue up when he stated that an alternative to becoming more immersed in Vietnam, was the government of the RVN "asking us to leave."

I also find that the Nhu's certainly seemed to feel very good about things after November 63, and seemed particularly at home in the great State of Texas.

104-10309-10018

MEMO: SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS (EDWARD GEARY LANSDALE)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

Date: 06/05/75

Agency: CIA

Agency File Number: Office of Security Work Files

Memorandum for Inspector General

1. Reference is made to the request of the Inspector General for a summary of the past relationship of Major General Edward Leary Lansdale, USAF, Retired with CIA.

2. Office of Security Records were reviewed and reflected the following information concerning Mr. Lansdale and his relationship with this Agency. Mr. Lansdale was born on 6 February 1908 in Detroit, Michigan. Mr. Lansdale attended UCLA from 1927 to 1931 and was employed as an advertising executive in California until 1942. In 1942 Mr. Lansdale joined OSS as a civilian and in 1943 was commissioned in the U.S. Army. From 1943 to 1949 Mr. Lansdale served as an officer in OSS and various other military intelligence assignments. Mr. Lansdale’s career designation eventually became U.S. Air Force, and he was assigned to CIA in 1949 as a detailee with the rank of Major.

3. Mr. Lansdale’s first assignment with CIA was as an operations and plans officer and from September 1950 to December 1953 as a Colonel, was assigned as a ranking CIA Representative to the Philippines. As a result of his tour in the Philippines, Mr. Lansdale in 1954 was recommended for the National Security Medal, which was awarded to him by the President in July 1955.

4. From May 1954 to April 1956, Mr Lansdale was assigned by CIA to Vietnam as Chief of Station of the Saigon Military Mission, MAAG Indochina. In 1956 Mr. Lansdale was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal for outstanding service in Vietnam. Apparently, Mr. Lansdale had broad powers during this period as he was appointed the Unconventional Warfare Adviser to the Chief, MAAG Indochina. At the same time Mr. Lansdale had part of the CIA Intelligence collection responsibility. File information reflected that Mr. Lansdale resigned from the CIA on 20 February 1957 to return to his parent service the U.S. Air Force.

5. Mr. Lansdale was then assigned to the Pentagon as Deputy Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Special Operations, where he developed Department of Defense Policy on matters involving certain CIA activities of a counterinsurgency nature. Mr. Lansdale was granted liason for various purposes from 1957 to 1962. During this period Mr. Lansdale was cleared for a number of highly classified CIA projects and was issued building passes for access to certain CIA buildings. The latest security action pertaining to Mr. Lansdale concerned a covert security clearance issued on 27 August 1962 for a special project.

6. Reference is made to eyes only information contained in a sealed envelope in Mr. Lansdale’s security file. A memorandum attributed to a CIA employee who worked with Mr. Lansdale at the Pentagon, dated 26 October 1962 was highly uncomplimentary toward Mr. Lansdale and described him as a threat to the CIA. The memorandum suggested by-passing Mr. Lansdale whenever possible in dealings with the Department of Defense by Mr. Helms, then Deputy Director of Plans forwarded the above mentioned memorandum concerning Mr. Lansdale and stated that Mr. Lansdale was “virtually persona non grata with this agency as a result of his conduct in the highly secret Cuban operation known as 'Mongoose’.”

The memorandum directed that no further utilization of Mr. Lansdale be made by CIA without clearance from the Deputy Director for Plans or the DCI.

7. File information reflected that Mr. Lansdale was retired by the U.S. Air Force on 1 November 1963 as a Major General. It was noted that the office in which Mr. Lansdale functioned under the Secretary of Defense had been abolished.

8. In 1971 Mr. Lansdale sent a personal note to the General Counsel requesting agency assistance for two friends from the Philippines in their claims for previous Government employment. Additional information contained in Mr. Lansdale’s security file consisted mainly of newspaper clippings which reflected, in part, that Mr. Lansdale returned to Vietnam in 1965 as an advisor to Ambassador Lodge on counterinsurgency.

Signed

Charles W. Kane

Director of Security

END

Robert: It is not often that reading a document leaves me somewhat mystified, but after reading the above document I am very much mystified.

Normally I would have posted this document on General Lansdale's thread, but I am of the opinion that this thread will continue to elucidate a chain of events that has been previously unknown to a great degree.

There will undoubtedly be different perspectives on what brought about the above events as described, but the document seems to imply potential leaks or policy violations on the part of Mr. Lansdale that left him in a very unenviable position at the beginning of November 1963, or so it would seem. Even that observation may found to be inaccurate.

Edited by Robert Howard
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  • 3 weeks later...
.....Any analysis of the events in reference to the events in Vietnam, particularly with regards to the fall of 1963, cannot be considered all-encompassing unless one is familiar with the American Friends of Vietnam. An indispensable source for the AFV is

The Vietnam Lobby: The American Friends of Vietnam, 1955-1975 Joseph G. Morgan Chapel Hill University of North Carolina Press, 1997.

Below are a couple of excerpts...The reference below are to members of the American Friends of Vietnam (AFV.)

"The AFV's early membership reflected the broad spectrum of Americans who believed that the United States had an obligation to help Diem in his struggle against the French and the communists. Well-known figures such as Kennedy, Douglas, Mansfield, General William J. Donovan, and Norman Thomas, the American socialist leader, joined the AFV, but the group's most influential members were on its executive committee. These officers included the economist Leo Cherne, political activists such as Joseph Buttinger and Christopher Emmet, General John W. O'Daniel, academics such as Wesley Fishel and William Henderson, and Harold Oram and Gilbert Jonas, two public relations executives who worked for the Diem regime. Many of these people had been Diem's earliest admirers and would support him for years."

"Many of these people, including Joseph Buttinger, Leo Cherne, Christopher Emmet, Angier Biddle Duke, Harold Oram, Richard R. Salzmann, and Admiral Byrd, had been associated with the International Rescue Committee. Another officer, William vanden Heuvel, had been active in IRC projects and had worked closely with General Donovan during the latter's service as ambassador to Thailand and as a lawyer in New York. Another member, Elliot Newcomb, was one of Oram's colleagues. Others who served on the AFV's board included such early acquaintances of Diem as Professor I. Milton Sacks and the journalist Sol Sanders. Dr. M. L. Anson, a nutritionist, acted as the AFV's treasurer for the first year. Finally, another early AFV officer was Norbert Muhlen, a German émigré who frequently contributed articles to The New Leader, a journal whose editorial policy of "militant anti-communism, plus sympathy for government-inspired social reform, best summarizes the philosophy of most of the executive committee members."

“On August 23, the RVN's senior commanders approached U.S. intelligence agents and, after disavowing the ARVN's involvement in the repression, asked about American reaction to a possible attempt to oust Nhu. Kennedy's advisers, outraged by the pagoda raids, responded favorably to this inquiry. On August 24, senior Washington officials, including the president himself, gave their hasty approval to a State Department message telling the embassy in Saigon that the "US government cannot tolerate [a] situation in which power lies in Nhu's hands" and that "we are prepared to accept the obvious implication that we can no longer support Diem" if Diem refused to break his ties with Nhu."

But, what might be the most important information I located was the following.

"In a talk with the president a month after the November 11 coup, Durbrow suggested that Diem "hire [a] good foreign public relations expert in order to develop better press relations," but the ambassador seemed to be referring to a representative hired to work in Saigon and not to the services of an overseas concern. Other sources, however, contain recommendations that Diem seek the assistance of a company other than Oram's. Writing to Diem in September 1960, Edward Lansdale advised, "I have long believed that you need a good, private American public relations firm to help you." He then proposed that Diem secure the services of King and Maheu Associates in Washington.

Robert: What little I know of the various dynamics of the Diem/Nhu relationship, is that while most people understandably look at the two as diametrically opposed entities, there was one area in which they were very much on the same page, and that was in regards to a potential negotiated settlement with the North Vietnamese Government, that was very much an issue in that period before the assassination of not only Diem, but JFK as well....

As a case in point, I would cite the fact that Pres. Kennedy himself, brought the issue up when he stated that an alternative to becoming more immersed in Vietnam, was the government of the RVN "asking us to leave."

I also find that the Nhu's certainly seemed to feel very good about things after November 63, and seemed particularly at home in the great State of Texas.

104-10309-10018

MEMO: SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS (EDWARD GEARY LANSDALE)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

Date: 06/05/75

Agency: CIA

Agency File Number: Office of Security Work Files

Memorandum for Inspector General

1. Reference is made to the request of the Inspector General for a summary of the past relationship of Major General Edward Leary Lansdale, USAF, Retired with CIA.

2. Office of Security Records were reviewed and reflected the following information concerning Mr. Lansdale and his relationship with this Agency. Mr. Lansdale was born on 6 February 1908 in Detroit, Michigan. Mr. Lansdale attended UCLA from 1927 to 1931 and was employed as an advertising executive in California until 1942. In 1942 Mr. Lansdale joined OSS as a civilian and in 1943 was commissioned in the U.S. Army. From 1943 to 1949 Mr. Lansdale served as an officer in OSS and various other military intelligence assignments. Mr. Lansdale’s career designation eventually became U.S. Air Force, and he was assigned to CIA in 1949 as a detailee with the rank of Major.

3. Mr. Lansdale’s first assignment with CIA was as an operations and plans officer and from September 1950 to December 1953 as a Colonel, was assigned as a ranking CIA Representative to the Philippines. As a result of his tour in the Philippines, Mr. Lansdale in 1954 was recommended for the National Security Medal, which was awarded to him by the President in July 1955.

4. From May 1954 to April 1956, Mr Lansdale was assigned by CIA to Vietnam as Chief of Station of the Saigon Military Mission, MAAG Indochina. In 1956 Mr. Lansdale was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal for outstanding service in Vietnam. Apparently, Mr. Lansdale had broad powers during this period as he was appointed the Unconventional Warfare Adviser to the Chief, MAAG Indochina. At the same time Mr. Lansdale had part of the CIA Intelligence collection responsibility. File information reflected that Mr. Lansdale resigned from the CIA on 20 February 1957 to return to his parent service the U.S. Air Force.

5. Mr. Lansdale was then assigned to the Pentagon as Deputy Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Special Operations, where he developed Department of Defense Policy on matters involving certain CIA activities of a counterinsurgency nature. Mr. Lansdale was granted liason for various purposes from 1957 to 1962. During this period Mr. Lansdale was cleared for a number of highly classified CIA projects and was issued building passes for access to certain CIA buildings. The latest security action pertaining to Mr. Lansdale concerned a covert security clearance issued on 27 August 1962 for a special project.

6. Reference is made to eyes only information contained in a sealed envelope in Mr. Lansdale’s security file. A memorandum attributed to a CIA employee who worked with Mr. Lansdale at the Pentagon, dated 26 October 1962 was highly uncomplimentary toward Mr. Lansdale and described him as a threat to the CIA. The memorandum suggested by-passing Mr. Lansdale whenever possible in dealings with the Department of Defense by Mr. Helms, then Deputy Director of Plans forwarded the above mentioned memorandum concerning Mr. Lansdale and stated that Mr. Lansdale was “virtually persona non grata with this agency as a result of his conduct in the highly secret Cuban operation known as 'Mongoose’.”

The memorandum directed that no further utilization of Mr. Lansdale be made by CIA without clearance from the Deputy Director for Plans or the DCI.

7. File information reflected that Mr. Lansdale was retired by the U.S. Air Force on 1 November 1963 as a Major General. It was noted that the office in which Mr. Lansdale functioned under the Secretary of Defense had been abolished.

8. In 1971 Mr. Lansdale sent a personal note to the General Counsel requesting agency assistance for two friends from the Philippines in their claims for previous Government employment. Additional information contained in Mr. Lansdale’s security file consisted mainly of newspaper clippings which reflected, in part, that Mr. Lansdale returned to Vietnam in 1965 as an advisor to Ambassador Lodge on counterinsurgency.

Signed

Charles W. Kane

Director of Security

END

Robert: It is not often that reading a document leaves me somewhat mystified, but after reading the above document I am very much mystified.

Normally I would have posted this document on General Lansdale's thread, but I am of the opinion that this thread will continue to elucidate a chain of events that has been previously unknown to a great degree.

There will undoubtedly be different perspectives on what brought about the above events as described, but the document seems to imply potential leaks or policy violations on the part of Mr. Lansdale that left him in a very unenviable position at the beginning of November 1963, or so it would seem. Even that observation may found to be inaccurate.

From the Department of Beating a Dead Horse...

It is very difficult for me to delve into the very publicized and anachronistic? debate regarding JFK's

1,000 Man Withdrawal From Vietnam, that was debated by Noam Chomsky and L. Fletcher Prouty, but

the following document, if I am not mistaken seems to imply that there was another person in the decision making process that decided they had a better idea.......lets just make that a 70/30 mix

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

My conclusion is that this document is not that significant, but would be if JFK never saw it.

The point being is not the issue of withdrawing troops from Vietnam, but rather were the JCOS and Rusk handling matters without consulting the Prez.....

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The Joint Chiefs of Staff

Office of the Special Assistant For

Counterinsurgency and Special Activities

September 25, 1963

Memorandum For the Special Operations Division

Subject Cuba Planning

1. At the JCS meeting this date General Lemay, Acting

Chairman, directed that SACSA initiate planning with

CIA representatives to develop support plans for the

military to assist the CIA in their covert raiding program.

Mr. Fitzgerald of the CIA, had been advised by General

LeMay that a knowledge of the broader scope of the program

would be necessary for the Joint Staff to assist in individual

operations planning. Mr. Fitzgerald agreed that more

across-the-table planning was necessary.

2. The first requirement to meet the above is to develop a plan

for planning. By this I mean an outline of our approach to meet

the requirement of General LeMay. This will include the respons-

ibility of SACSA, those whom we will bring into this planning

operation,the intended function of the Office of Mr. Califano and

Colonel Haig, the intended objective of the first meeting of the

representatives of the CIA and the projected planning operational

steps which can be forecast at this date.

3. It seems to me that one of the requirements for the initial planning

conference with the CIA is that the complete scope of the raiding pro-

gram be provided so that SACSA in turn can take the necessary steps

to determine the assets in the military which can be utilized.

Walter M. Higgins, Jr.

Colonel, USA

Acting SACSA

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

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The Joint Chiefs of Staff

Office of the Special Assistant For

Counterinsurgency and Special Activities

September 25, 1963

Memorandum For the Special Operations Division

Subject Cuba Planning

1. At the JCS meeting this date General Lemay, Acting

Chairman, directed that SACSA initiate planning with

CIA representatives to develop support plans for the

military to assist the CIA in their covert raiding program.

Mr. Fitzgerald of the CIA, had been advised by General

LeMay that a knowledge of the broader scope of the program

would be necessary for the Joint Staff to assist in individual

operations planning. Mr. Fitzgerald agreed that more

across-the-table planning was necessary.

2. The first requirement to meet the above is to develop a plan

for planning. By this I mean an outline of our approach to meet

the requirement of General LeMay. This will include the respons-

ibility of SACSA, those whom we will bring into this planning

operation,the intended function of the Office of Mr. Califano and

Colonel Haig, the intended objective of the first meeting of the

representatives of the CIA and the projected planning operational

steps which can be forecast at this date.

3. It seems to me that one of the requirements for the initial planning

conference with the CIA is that the complete scope of the raiding pro-

gram be provided so that SACSA in turn can take the necessary steps

to determine the assets in the military which can be utilized.

Walter M. Higgins, Jr.

Colonel, USA

Acting SACSA

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

Hey Robert,

There's Col. Higgins Again.

I wonder if he's still alive? He was in the thick of it.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=10274

SPECIAL ACCESS LIST

202-10001-10057

J-3

DOC 58

AIR FORCE

10/21/63

DOD ACCESS LEST – CUBA PLANNING 21 October 1963

Chairman’s Office

Gen Taylor

Maj Gen Goodpaster

Col Rogers

Mr. R. Day

Mr. F. Kearney

Lt Col Smith

Director’s Office

VAdm Riley

Maj Gen Reynolds

Maj Gen Manhart

Col. Erwin

Lt Col Hutchins

LCdr Hilton

Maj Dorsey

Secretary’s Office

Brig Gen Ingelido

Col Forbes

Capt Law

Miss Ruth Hunter

SACSA

Maj Gen Krulak

Col Higgins

Col xxxxxx Strozier

Capt Eggeman

Col Wyman Col Hawkins

Miss Grace Sciacca

Mrs. Carolyn Kercheval

Miss Liunda Sadler

Cpl Gould

DOD Executive Agent for Cuban Affairs

Secretary Vance

Mr. Califano

Lt Coll Haig

Miss Myrtle Davis

CINCLANT

Adm H. F. Smith

VAdm R.C. Needham

RAdm J.W. Leverton

Capt. J. E. Fond

Capt. F.E. Hartmann

Capt. L.A. Kurtz

Lt. Col. M.A. Foster, USAF

Cmdr F. J. Wikenhieser

Army

Gen Wheeler

Lt Gen Johnson

Maj Gen Alger

Col Blanchard

Col Bond

Lt Col Baldwin

Lt Col Woolard

Lt Col Garrett

Mrs. Marie Nier

Miss Mary Hennig

Navy

Adm McDonald

VAdm Ramidge

RAdm Jackson

RAdm Taylor

RAdm Stream

Capt Packard

Capt Hatch

LCdr Bublitz

LCdr Saunders

Lt Dahl

Mr. DeMille (CIV)

YNC Hover

Air Force

Gen LeMay

Lt Gen BGurchinal

Maj Gen Carpenter

Maj Gen Worden

Col Van Duyn

Lt Col P:uchrik

Maj Stutzer

Miss Spruill

Marine Corps

Gen Shoup

Lt Gen Hayes

Lt Gen Greene

Maj Gen Buse

Brig Gen. xxxxxx Qulter

Col Simmons

Lt Col Finn

J-3

Maj Gen Unger

RAdm Chew

Capt Moody

Capt Turner

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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Diaz-Balart

http://www.cubaenelmundo.com/Articulos/fontova.htm

http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001649.html

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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

Here is the entire chapter referring to the White Rose Society in Martino's book which is on-line in full

or in part here.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/morgan/martino.htm

What is the last word on Capt. William Morgan and any possible role on his part in the JFK hit?

At one point I was told Morgan died before 11/22/63 by the former "self-proclaimed expert" in

South Florida Soldiers of Fortune and Miami Cuban affairs, who has since been debunked, and on other

ocassions I see some alternative references to the fact that he participated in the hit somehow.

I get the feeling that Lamar Waldron is in almost total agreement with Grodie Whineslow regarding the

lack of participation on the part of Nellie's Boys, anti-Castro Cuban exiles and the E. Howard Hunt "deathbed confession"

crew including William Harvey, Antonio Veciana, Frank Sturgis, David Atlee Phillips, Cord Meyer, Jr., David

Morales and even E. Howard himself in the JFK plot. I always though Waldron to be very suspect in his

narrow Mafia-based choice of suspects and in his obvious Whineslow-linked deflecting biases. He even appeared

on CoastToCoastAM trying to debunk and belittle the E. Howard Hunt confessions and the version of

events published by Saint James Hunt and Marita Lorenz which are internally self-corroborating versions

of events that day. Is Thomas Hartmann from the same school of thought and background as Waldron?

Meaning that they pursue fringe Mafia theories and suspects instead of mainstream links from South

Florida Soldiers of Fortune into the Sturgis, Hunt and Veciana CIA sponsored anti-Castro exile crowds?

If so, their work is suspect, compromised and therefore essentially worthless in my honest opinion. Anyone

who cozies up to Grodie Whineslow and to his theories which have already been debunked, denuded, belittled

and exposed should be shunned and avoided in my honest opinion. Neither Waldron nor Whineslow were even

in Miami at the time, so all of their stuff is third hand info or based on filtered and biased sources.

One of these days, I will tell you folks about how Ace Ventura - Pet Detective (a/k/a Whineslow) screwed up

the facts so badly regarding the timing of my observation of Frank Sturgis in Miami's Grapeland Heights that Sturgis

flipped out and started giving me threatening phone calls and then drive by staredowns in New England thinking

that I could place him at the scene of an in-progress JFK assassination plot conversation on the day it happened.

In essence, Sturgis implicated himself in that plot conversation, by dint of the fact that he reacted with a paranoid

and guilt-ridden reactionary response. And the only person who could have related these convoluted and erroneous

paranoid details to Sturgis was Whineslow himself. Thank you Ace Ventura, you the best man. Why don't you just

paint a target on Sturgis' back instead and sign his death warrant? We the jury find Frank Fiorini Sturgis, on the

first count - of First Degree Murder - Guilty as charged. After Whineslow cozied up to Kram Diaz, right after Notaeg

Iznof did the same at the RI conference, that entire trio became Persona Non Grata in my honest opinion. They all

shared the common bond of denying the version of events proffered by Marita Lorenz since it leads directly through

E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis into the CIA sponsored South Florida anti-Castro Cuban exiles and those like Robert

Emmett Johnson, Harold B. Chait, and Ray S. Cline even though she probably did not know these last suspects directly.

Could Notaeg Iznof just have been brainwashed by the prevailing pressures to debunk Marita Lorenz? Or was he more

like Whineslow, who screwed up so many dates and facts himself that he jumped on every little actual or contrived

loophole in order to debunk any otherwise solid evidence which was only partially or imperfectly recollected? I think

the latter. Once Whineslow cited an inaccurate factoid about someone learning to drive in the Central Shopping Plaza

parking lot in Miami, then he twisted it around in his head so badly that he stated: "How could Oswald have learned to

drive in Miami? He couldn't even drive a car! So there. Story debunked." Way to go, Ace Ventura, more Guano on your

face. This citation had nothing to do with Oswald. Nothing at all. And these guys call themselves investigative journalists.

They are little more than Guano face painters just like Ace Ventura. And some people cite them as authoritative.

What a frigging joke. Goo-ahnno to you all. Sturgis and Hunt should have had their day in court on the JFK deal.

And as for people who cite items like Marita Lorenz's imperfect memory regarding the exact years when she interacted

with Oswald in Miami, 15-17 years AFTER THE FACT, well I challenge your memory of events even 5-7 years in the past.

Nit picking in order to debunk an entire thesis is prima facie evidence of a preconceived plan to debunk, belittle and

destroy. Some of you fell for that hook, line and sinker as these Guano experts paint your face with white powder and

you just sit there and eat it all up. Shame on you. And Whineslow and Iznof became expert in that technique. All

about Mind Control, is it not? And for some of you it only takes a small washcloth for a thorough brain scrubbing. For

others a firehose in a car wash during open brain surgery could not change your mind one iota.

What is Guano, anyway for those of you who did not see the movie where it was featured? Unadulterared Bat xxxx.

Any excrement from birds, seals, or bats, with value to humans as fertilizer, may be referred to as guano. The term originated in Peru, to differentiate useless bird droppings from the nutrient-rich waste of cormorants, pelicans, and other sea birds. The word's useage has since been widened to include, especially, the mixture of remains and excrement of bats that collect on the floor of caves.

Hundreds of years ago, farmers in South America harvested the white piles of guano from shorelines and islands to use as crop fertilizer. After contact with Europe, the export of guano became economically beneficial for the Colonizers. Bat guano also has a long agricultural and economic history in Cuba. Even today, guano from bat caves in the United States, Asia, Cuba, and South America is marketed as the best organic fertilizer available.

The reason guano is an ideal fertilizer is its chemical make up. Because the guano exists deep inside caves, it's protected from sunlight and wind, and doesn't break down as quickly as other organic matter. Rich in nitrogen and phosphorous, it provides important chemicals for crops. It also has beneficial fungi and bacteria, which act as a natural fungicide to protect plants from disease.

Export of guano as a fertilizer remains a key resource for organic farming, especially in the United States. A farmer can request a certain color, species of bat, or place of origin, in addition to chemical composition. Bat guano is richer than fowl or seal guano, and more plentiful. It is also much richer than horse or cow manure. <a name="guano" href="http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-guano.htm#il"></a>

Edited by John Bevilaqua
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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

Here is the entire chapter referring to the White Rose Society in Martino's book which is on-line in full

or in part here.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/morgan/martino.htm

What is the last word on Capt. William Morgan and any possible role on his part in the JFK hit?

At one point I was told Morgan died before 11/22/63 by the former "self-proclaimed expert" in

South Florida Soldiers of Fortune and Miami Cuban affairs, who has since been debunked, and on other

ocassions I see some alternative references to the fact that he participated in the hit somehow.

I get the feeling that Lamar Waldron is in almost total agreement with Grodie Whineslow regarding the

lack of participation on the part of Nellie's Boys, anti-Castro Cuban exiles and the E. Howard Hunt "deathbed confession"

crew including William Harvey, Antonio Veciana, Frank Sturgis, David Atlee Phillips, Cord Meyer, Jr., David

Morales and even E. Howard himself in the JFK plot. I always though Waldron to be very suspect in his

narrow Mafia-based choice of suspects and in his obvious Whineslow-linked deflecting biases. He even appeared

on CoastToCoastAM trying to debunk and belittle the E. Howard Hunt confessions and the version of

events published by Saint James Hunt and Marita Lorenz which are internally self-corroborating versions

of events that day. Is Thomas Hartmann from the same school of thought and background as Waldron?

Meaning that they pursue fringe Mafia theories and suspects instead of mainstream links from South

Florida Soldiers of Fortune into the Sturgis, Hunt and Veciana CIA sponsored anti-Castro exile crowds?

If so, their work is suspect, compromised and therefore essentially worthless in my honest opinion. Anyone

who cozies up to Grodie Whineslow and to his theories which have already been debunked, denuded, belittled

and exposed should be shunned and avoided in my honest opinion. Neither Waldron nor Whineslow were even

in Miami at the time, so all of their stuff is third hand info or based on filtered and biased sources.

One of these days, I will tell you folks about how Ace Ventura - Pet Detective (a/k/a Whineslow) screwed up

the facts so badly regarding the timing of my observation of Frank Sturgis in Miami's Grapeland Heights that Sturgis

flipped out and started giving me threatening phone calls and then drive by staredowns in New England thinking

that I could place him at the scene of an in-progress JFK assassination plot conversation on the day it happened.

In essence, Sturgis implicated himself in that plot conversation, by dint of the fact that he reacted with a paranoid

and guilt-ridden reactionary response. And the only person who could have related these convoluted and erroneous

paranoid details to Sturgis was Whineslow himself. Thank you Ace Ventura, you the best man. Why don't you just

paint a target on Sturgis' back instead and sign his death warrant? We the jury find Frank Fiorini Sturgis, on the

first count - of First Degree Murder - Guilty as charged. After Whineslow cozied up to Kram Diaz, right after Notaeg

Iznof did the same at the RI conference, that entire trio became Persona Non Grata in my honest opinion. They all

shared the common bond of denying the version of events proffered by Marita Lorenz since it leads directly through

E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis into the CIA sponsored South Florida anti-Castro Cuban exiles and those like Robert

Emmett Johnson, Harold B. Chait, and Ray S. Cline even though she probably did not know these last suspects directly.

Could Notaeg Iznof just have been brainwashed by the prevailing pressures to debunk Marita Lorenz? Or was he more

like Whineslow, who screwed up so many dates and facts himself that he jumped on every little actual or contrived

loophole in order to debunk any otherwise solid evidence which was only partially or imperfectly recollected? I think

the latter. Once Whineslow cited an inaccurate factoid about someone learning to drive in the Central Shopping Plaza

parking lot in Miami, then he twisted it around in his head so badly that he stated: "How could Oswald have learned to

drive in Miami? He couldn't even drive a car! So there. Story debunked." Way to go, Ace Ventura, more Guano on your

face. This citation had nothing to do with Oswald. Nothing at all. And these guys call themselves investigative journalists.

They are little more than Guano face painters just like Ace Ventura. And some people cite them as authoritative.

What a frigging joke. Goo-ahnno to you all. Sturgis and Hunt should have had their day in court on the JFK deal.

And as for people who cite items like Marita Lorenz's imperfect memory regarding the exact years when she interacted

with Oswald in Miami, 15-17 years AFTER THE FACT, well I challenge your memory of events even 5-7 years in the past.

Nit picking in order to debunk an entire thesis is prima facie evidence of a preconceived plan to debunk, belittle and

destroy. Some of you fell for that hook, line and sinker as these Guano experts paint your face with white powder and

you just sit there and eat it all up. Shame on you. And Whineslow and Iznof became expert in that technique. All

about Mind Control, is it not? And for some of you it only takes a small washcloth for a thorough brain scrubbing. For

others a firehose in a car wash during open brain surgery could not change your mind one iota.

What is Guano, anyway for those of you who did not see the movie where it was featured? Unadulterared Bat xxxx.

Any excrement from birds, seals, or bats, with value to humans as fertilizer, may be referred to as guano. The term originated in Peru, to differentiate useless bird droppings from the nutrient-rich waste of cormorants, pelicans, and other sea birds. The word's useage has since been widened to include, especially, the mixture of remains and excrement of bats that collect on the floor of caves.

Hundreds of years ago, farmers in South America harvested the white piles of guano from shorelines and islands to use as crop fertilizer. After contact with Europe, the export of guano became economically beneficial for the Colonizers. Bat guano also has a long agricultural and economic history in Cuba. Even today, guano from bat caves in the United States, Asia, Cuba, and South America is marketed as the best organic fertilizer available.

The reason guano is an ideal fertilizer is its chemical make up. Because the guano exists deep inside caves, it's protected from sunlight and wind, and doesn't break down as quickly as other organic matter. Rich in nitrogen and phosphorous, it provides important chemicals for crops. It also has beneficial fungi and bacteria, which act as a natural fungicide to protect plants from disease.

Export of guano as a fertilizer remains a key resource for organic farming, especially in the United States. A farmer can request a certain color, species of bat, or place of origin, in addition to chemical composition. Bat guano is richer than fowl or seal guano, and more plentiful. It is also much richer than horse or cow manure. <a name="guano" href="http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-guano.htm#il"></a>

I take strong exception to denigrating comments about Gordon Winslow and Gaeton Fonzi, [even if Gaeton's name is spelled backwards] a reputable researcher does not do that, even if it were true; which I harbor reservations about that.

Flaming posts in a patronizing manner to tell everyone what a genius you are, is not exactly an endearing characteristic either.

If you are trying to alienate yourself from the Forum you are posting on, your doing a great job.

Edited by Robert Howard
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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

OF NOTE

HELP ON BIOGRAPHY OF WILLIAM MORGAN -- "Aran Shetterly of Brooksville, Maine (aranshetterly@hotmail.com ) is working on a biography of William Morgan, a U.S. citizen born in Cleveland OH on 19 April 1928, who became embroiled in revolutionary and counter-revolutionary activity in Cuba during the period 1958-61, ultimately being executed by the Castro regime in March 1961. Aran would welcome an opportunity to interview anyone who might have perspective on the case of this person who allegedly had ties to U.S. intelligence. Aran Shetterly is a friend and neighbor of AFIO member Bob Sargent ( sargent@prexar.com ). Anyone having knowledge of the Morgan case and willing to talk with Aran could contact him directly via e-mail or phone (207-829-6201). One also might channel perspective on the Morgan case to Aran via Bob Sargent who would source only to a knowledgeable AFIO member."

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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

OF NOTE

HELP ON BIOGRAPHY OF WILLIAM MORGAN -- "Aran Shetterly of Brooksville, Maine (aranshetterly@hotmail.com ) is working on a biography of William Morgan, a U.S. citizen born in Cleveland OH on 19 April 1928, who became embroiled in revolutionary and counter-revolutionary activity in Cuba during the period 1958-61, ultimately being executed by the Castro regime in March 1961. Aran would welcome an opportunity to interview anyone who might have perspective on the case of this person who allegedly had ties to U.S. intelligence. Aran Shetterly is a friend and neighbor of AFIO member Bob Sargent ( sargent@prexar.com ). Anyone having knowledge of the Morgan case and willing to talk with Aran could contact him directly via e-mail or phone (207-829-6201). One also might channel perspective on the Morgan case to Aran via Bob Sargent who would source only to a knowledgeable AFIO member."

http://books.google.com/books?id=TvkdAAAAM...1#search_anchor

page 49

“Let me read you the accusation. The judge said that the paper was the $100 bond of a counterevolutionary group known as the White Rose. [Rosa Blanca] It was signed by the treasurer of that group, the former Cuban senator “

124-10279-10104 Report circa November 1960 in the files of Manuel Ray Rivero

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

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According to this report, Lamar Waldron's partner Thom Hartmann has left Air America.

His shows are archived at this site, called the White Rose Society, which is named after the group of medical students who organized a leafleting campaign against the Nazis and were implicated in the July 20, 1944 Valkyrie plot to kill Hitler. So Thom, if not Lamar, should have been well aware of the Valkyrie details, and taken notice of the CIA/DOD plans to adapt them against Cuba.

I'm also recalling that in John Martino's book, I Was Castro's Prisoner, I think he mentions that there was an anti-Castro counter revolutionary group in Cuba called the White Rose Society.

It would be great if someone with that book could confirm that.

Thanks, BK

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

....Thom Hartmann has left the Air America Radio Network, and is now in the employ of Dial Global. As a consequence, I again have permission to present his archives and podcasts here. They should re-appear on this site within the next day or so (I am writing on Sunday, March 15th, 2009) and will be subject to a seven day embargo so as not to cannibalize podcast subscription sales which support Dial and which therefore support Thom's show. (Monday update - Last Monday's show has now been posted.)

Again, thanks to all of you who have helped out with your gifts to help keep this going. I literally could not do this without you.

-Ben Burch

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

I found it:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:zg_U7-...=clnk&gl=us

...Joining the Cuban Rebel forces in 1957 or 1958, Morgan saw service in the Escambray and emerged as Fidel Castro's chief cloak-and-dagger man and one of the most spectacular confidence men and double-crossers of our day. In August 1959, he carried out two major agent-provocateur operations for Castro with conspicuous success. He convinced Dominican dictator Rafael Leonidas Trujillo that he was able to organize and lead a military insurrection that would overthrow the Castro regime. Reportedly, he got $200,000 from the Dominican political boss and, with Castro's connivance, lured Dominican mercenaries and anti-communist volunteers into a carefully prepared death trap. A few days earlier, he had betrayed the leaders of the White Rose society, the militant anti-Castro organization with which I was supposed to have been connected, to the Cuban secret police. As a result, 4,000 suspects were arrested and the backbone of what was at that time the most effective anti-Castro organization in Cuba was snapped....

Here is the entire chapter referring to the White Rose Society in Martino's book which is on-line in full

or in part here.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/morgan/martino.htm

What is the last word on Capt. William Morgan and any possible role on his part in the JFK hit?

At one point I was told Morgan died before 11/22/63 by the former "self-proclaimed expert" in

South Florida Soldiers of Fortune and Miami Cuban affairs, who has since been debunked, and on other

ocassions I see some alternative references to the fact that he participated in the hit somehow.

I get the feeling that Lamar Waldron is in almost total agreement with Grodie Whineslow regarding the

lack of participation on the part of Nellie's Boys, anti-Castro Cuban exiles and the E. Howard Hunt "deathbed confession"

crew including William Harvey, Antonio Veciana, Frank Sturgis, David Atlee Phillips, Cord Meyer, Jr., David

Morales and even E. Howard himself in the JFK plot. I always though Waldron to be very suspect in his

narrow Mafia-based choice of suspects and in his obvious Whineslow-linked deflecting biases. He even appeared

on CoastToCoastAM trying to debunk and belittle the E. Howard Hunt confessions and the version of

events published by Saint James Hunt and Marita Lorenz which are internally self-corroborating versions

of events that day. Is Thomas Hartmann from the same school of thought and background as Waldron?

Meaning that they pursue fringe Mafia theories and suspects instead of mainstream links from South

Florida Soldiers of Fortune into the Sturgis, Hunt and Veciana CIA sponsored anti-Castro exile crowds?

If so, their work is suspect, compromised and therefore essentially worthless in my honest opinion. Anyone

who cozies up to Grodie Whineslow and to his theories which have already been debunked, denuded, belittled

and exposed should be shunned and avoided in my honest opinion. Neither Waldron nor Whineslow were even

in Miami at the time, so all of their stuff is third hand info or based on filtered and biased sources.

One of these days, I will tell you folks about how Ace Ventura - Pet Detective (a/k/a Whineslow) screwed up

the facts so badly regarding the timing of my observation of Frank Sturgis in Miami's Grapeland Heights that Sturgis

flipped out and started giving me threatening phone calls and then drive by staredowns in New England thinking

that I could place him at the scene of an in-progress JFK assassination plot conversation on the day it happened.

In essence, Sturgis implicated himself in that plot conversation, by dint of the fact that he reacted with a paranoid

and guilt-ridden reactionary response. And the only person who could have related these convoluted and erroneous

paranoid details to Sturgis was Whineslow himself. Thank you Ace Ventura, you the best man. Why don't you just

paint a target on Sturgis' back instead and sign his death warrant? We the jury find Frank Fiorini Sturgis, on the

first count - of First Degree Murder - Guilty as charged. After Whineslow cozied up to Kram Diaz, right after Notaeg

Iznof did the same at the RI conference, that entire trio became Persona Non Grata in my honest opinion. They all

shared the common bond of denying the version of events proffered by Marita Lorenz since it leads directly through

E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis into the CIA sponsored South Florida anti-Castro Cuban exiles and those like Robert

Emmett Johnson, Harold B. Chait, and Ray S. Cline even though she probably did not know these last suspects directly.

Could Notaeg Iznof just have been brainwashed by the prevailing pressures to debunk Marita Lorenz? Or was he more

like Whineslow, who screwed up so many dates and facts himself that he jumped on every little actual or contrived

loophole in order to debunk any otherwise solid evidence which was only partially or imperfectly recollected? I think

the latter. Once Whineslow cited an inaccurate factoid about someone learning to drive in the Central Shopping Plaza

parking lot in Miami, then he twisted it around in his head so badly that he stated: "How could Oswald have learned to

drive in Miami? He couldn't even drive a car! So there. Story debunked." Way to go, Ace Ventura, more Guano on your

face. This citation had nothing to do with Oswald. Nothing at all. And these guys call themselves investigative journalists.

They are little more than Guano face painters just like Ace Ventura. And some people cite them as authoritative.

What a frigging joke. Goo-ahnno to you all. Sturgis and Hunt should have had their day in court on the JFK deal.

And as for people who cite items like Marita Lorenz's imperfect memory regarding the exact years when she interacted

with Oswald in Miami, 15-17 years AFTER THE FACT, well I challenge your memory of events even 5-7 years in the past.

Nit picking in order to debunk an entire thesis is prima facie evidence of a preconceived plan to debunk, belittle and

destroy. Some of you fell for that hook, line and sinker as these Guano experts paint your face with white powder and

you just sit there and eat it all up. Shame on you. And Whineslow and Iznof became expert in that technique. All

about Mind Control, is it not? And for some of you it only takes a small washcloth for a thorough brain scrubbing. For

others a firehose in a car wash during open brain surgery could not change your mind one iota.

What is Guano, anyway for those of you who did not see the movie where it was featured? Unadulterared Bat xxxx.

Any excrement from birds, seals, or bats, with value to humans as fertilizer, may be referred to as guano. The term originated in Peru, to differentiate useless bird droppings from the nutrient-rich waste of cormorants, pelicans, and other sea birds. The word's useage has since been widened to include, especially, the mixture of remains and excrement of bats that collect on the floor of caves.

Hundreds of years ago, farmers in South America harvested the white piles of guano from shorelines and islands to use as crop fertilizer. After contact with Europe, the export of guano became economically beneficial for the Colonizers. Bat guano also has a long agricultural and economic history in Cuba. Even today, guano from bat caves in the United States, Asia, Cuba, and South America is marketed as the best organic fertilizer available.

The reason guano is an ideal fertilizer is its chemical make up. Because the guano exists deep inside caves, it's protected from sunlight and wind, and doesn't break down as quickly as other organic matter. Rich in nitrogen and phosphorous, it provides important chemicals for crops. It also has beneficial fungi and bacteria, which act as a natural fungicide to protect plants from disease.

Export of guano as a fertilizer remains a key resource for organic farming, especially in the United States. A farmer can request a certain color, species of bat, or place of origin, in addition to chemical composition. Bat guano is richer than fowl or seal guano, and more plentiful. It is also much richer than horse or cow manure. <a name="guano" href="http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-guano.htm#il"></a>

I take strong exception to denigrating comments about Gordon Winslow and Gaeton Fonzi, [even if Gaeton's name is spelled backwards] a reputable researcher does not do that, even if it were true; which I harbor reservations about that.

Flaming posts in a patronizing manner to tell everyone what a genius you are, is not exactly an endearing characteristic either.

If you are trying to alienate yourself from the Forum you are posting on, your doing a great job.

How would you react if someone deliberately sicced Frank Sturgis on you after they totally screwed up facts, dates and other information and then told Sturgis that there was someone who could place him at the site of a conversation discussing the upcoming assassination plot against JFK on the day that it actually occurred? Have you ever considered that? Then later he attempted to use information discussed in confidence in order to attempt to debunk the version of events in South Florida described by both Marita Lorenz and myself as well in a deliberate back stabbing bag job. He actually scared Sturgis into incriminating himself in those events because in fact he was really there and he really had something to fear. Now isn't that a real hoot? In trying to exonerate Hunt and Sturgis he actually implicated them further. LMFAO.

As for the possibility that Hunt would have been important enough and well placed enough to know first hand exactly what LBJ's participation in the JFK plot was, I am just extremely doubtful. Because Hunt was so bitter about how he was hung out to dry after The Bay of Pigs and then later Watergate itself, I have a tendency to believe that the facts were that he and Sturgis had gathered together a crew of equally disaffected and bitter miscreants who had either CIA or Soldier of Fortune experience in order to make a few bucks for themselves during the entire JFK hit.

Then long after Watergate, Hunt twisted the story around to perhaps implicate multiple uninvolved persons and higher level officers including LBJ just to embellish the plot and to make it more marketable for his son. Was it just a classic need-to-know basis "rogue agent" operation? Not very likely either. But it may not have been as pervasive and interconnected as some would like it to be either.

Even Ray S. Cline and Robert Emmett Johnson and Harold B. Chait did all their dirty deeds mostly for personal gain and profit via WACL contacts and only secondarily for political or philosophical or national security reasons. I mean Archibishop Romero was just a classical "hit for hire" for purely financial gains in my opinion.

Winslow spent 15 years pretending that he was an "expert" on South Florida who was trying to find out who killed JFK then he finally

admitted that he was a "lone nut" theorist and that he had concluded that it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone. At least Fonzi never said he was a "lone nut" theorist but he did spend much effort in trying to debunk the Lorenz story and by doing so he held back the successful conclusion of a line of reasoning for over 25 years which eventually yielded much information of interest after the deaths of Hunt and Sturgis. To me this sort of blatant error is inexcusable and perhaps partially deliberate in the face of bona fide evidence. Winslow is now persona non grata to almost all serious researchers and has been exposed for what he really is in fact. Fonzi is another issue entirely. He was probably brainwashed or coerced by Winslow and did not have the guts to stand up to him and to disagree with him on the issues of Lorenz, Hunt and Sturgis and he has to shoulder the entire responsibility for that and for how that all transpired. I think Winslow has his face covered in Guano. A foot deep. End of story.

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