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Richard Randolph Carr


Duke Lane
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Richard Randolph Carr: Witness or Perjuror?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Is it likely that Richard Carr was a WWII Army Ranger?

    • Yes
      5
    • No
      3
    • Unsure
      4
  2. 2. Do you believe that he told the truth about what he'd seen - if anything - in Dealey Plaza?

    • Yes
      7
    • No
      4
    • Unsure
      1
  3. 3. What things do you consider "likely true" among those related by Mr. Carr?

    • He was in or near Dealey Plaza
      11
    • He was applying for a construction job at the new county courthouse
      8
    • He was on the sixth or seventh floor of the building
      7
    • He was able to see a man, in detail, from 800 feet away
      5
    • The man was in a "top floor" window
      5
    • The man was in the third window from Houston Street on the FIFTH floor
      2
    • The man was behind the picket fence
      2
    • The man and a gray Rambler were somehow connected
      7
    • The car was driven by a Negro man
      2
    • The car was driven by a Latin man
      3


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... I just wanted to mention that if someone can provide me with his date of death, I WILL find his obituary.

Okay, from the Social Security Death Index:

  • No Richard Randolph Carrs
  • Three Richard R. Carrs:
    • one born in 1922, died August 4, 1996 at Norton, WV, death certificate issued by the State of Georgia (SSN 259-05-1542)
      • SSN indicates issuance in Georgia
      • a possible hit?

      [*]one born in 1926, died November 13, 2004 (too late?), St. Charles, MO, issued by Missouri

      [*]other born 1941, too late to have served in WWII

    [*]301 Richard Carrs, several with different middle initials than "R" - the following death certificates were issued in Georgia or Texas:

    • b. 27 Nov 1924, d. Aug 1981 @ Fulton GA 253-46-7912
    • b. 24 Jan 1916, d. 16 Jul 1993 @ Bryan, TX 467-14-1013
    • b. 15 Mar 1921, d. Jul 1986 @ San Antonio, TX 466-18-8625
    • b. 29 May 1912, d. May 1987 @ McKinney, TX 450-07-9912

The others were born too late to have been old enough to have served in WWII, and others would have been too old (assuming a 30-year-old non-career enlistee to be about as old as the Army was taking them at the time). The Death Index can be searched through this link at Ancestry.com: http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/.

There is no certainty at this point that Carr died in either Georgia or Texas in the event that anyone wants to search some of the other names.

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... I just wanted to mention that if someone can provide me with his date of death, I WILL find his obituary.

Okay, from the Social Security Death Index:

  • No Richard Randolph Carrs
  • Three Richard R. Carrs:
    • one born in 1922, died August 4, 1996 at Norton, WV, death certificate issued by the State of Georgia (SSN 259-05-1542)
      • SSN indicates issuance in Georgia
      • a possible hit?

      [*]one born in 1926, died November 13, 2004 (too late?), St. Charles, MO, issued by Missouri

      [*]other born 1941, too late to have served in WWII

    [*]301 Richard Carrs, several with different middle initials than "R" - the following death certificates were issued in Georgia or Texas:

    • b. 27 Nov 1924, d. Aug 1981 @ Fulton GA 253-46-7912
    • b. 24 Jan 1916, d. 16 Jul 1993 @ Bryan, TX 467-14-1013
    • b. 15 Mar 1921, d. Jul 1986 @ San Antonio, TX 466-18-8625
    • b. 29 May 1912, d. May 1987 @ McKinney, TX 450-07-9912

The others were born too late to have been old enough to have served in WWII, and others would have been too old (assuming a 30-year-old non-career enlistee to be about as old as the Army was taking them at the time). The Death Index can be searched through this link at Ancestry.com: http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/.

There is no certainty at this point that Carr died in either Georgia or Texas in the event that anyone wants to search some of the other names.

Why doesn't somebody like Jack White or anybody who knows Gary Shaw, contact him and ask him what became of Carr and if he still has his number or an address. Maybe he is still alive.

BK

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I talked with Bob Groden on 11/22 and he confirmed that Carr is deceased. I think he said it was in the '80s.

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There's a correlation in there somewhere?

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I posted a request on the ancestry.com "Richard Randolph Carr" thread. Let's see if I'll get a reply to my request for an obituary on RR Carr who served in WW2 and was a witness at the Clay Shaw trial. I'll be sure to get back if I hear from the good folks there.

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I posted a request on the ancestry.com "Richard Randolph Carr" thread. Let's see if I'll get a reply to my request for an obituary on RR Carr who served in WW2 and was a witness at the Clay Shaw trial. I'll be sure to get back if I hear from the good folks there.

I would certainly be interested to know if Richard Randolph Carr was related to Patrick Carr.

http://texasmonthly.blogspot.com/2007/01/p...esbyterian.html

Also, Robert Groden states in When They Kill A President, that Carr was stabbed to death in Atlanta, an article written apparently after that states that while he recieved two stab wounds, he turned himself in to Atlanta authorities, who declined to prosecute him, [if there was no controversy over who initiated the assault, that would make sense]. The move to Montana took place before the Atlanta stabbing incident, so it seems that is where the informational trail ends......for now.

See

http://www.geocities.com/dealeyintimidation/

Edited by Robert Howard
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Sorry to say I've had no luck so far in finding out info on RR Carr. Here's the response from ancestry.com

"Your Richard Randolph Carr is not my Richard Randolph Carr. Mine was my grandfather and he was born in the 1800s. Maybe there is a connection but I don't know of it. The name is right and the location is right but nothing else matches. Billie Carr Bocetti"

We'll see if anything else develops. The leads with the last known contact info for RR Carr, known by some other researchers, may prove to be a more fruitful avenue.

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RR Carr's military enlistment data.

Name: Richard R Carr

Birth Year: 1922

Race: White, citizen (White)

Nativity State or Country: Georgia

State of Residence: Georgia

County or City: Fulton

Enlistment Date: 2 Oct 1942

Enlistment State: Georgia

Enlistment City: Fort McPherson Atlanta

Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA

Branch Code: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA

Grade: Private

Grade Code: Private

Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law

Component: Army of the United States - includes the following: Voluntary enlistments effective December 8, 1941 and thereafter; One year enlistments of National Guardsman whose State enlistment expires while in the Federal Service; Officers appointed in the Army of

Source: Civil Life

Education: Grammar school

Civil Occupation: Semiskilled mechanics and repairmen, n.e.c.

Marital Status: Single, without dependents

Height: 66

Weight: 128

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Thanks, Antti. This would seemingly gibe with the data below regarding "Richard R. Carr" SSDI listing, as well as (possibly) his return(?) to Atlanta in the years between 1963 and his appearance at the Shaw trial in 1969.

... from the Social Security Death Index:
  • No Richard Randolph Carrs
  • Three Richard R. Carrs:
    • one born in 1922, died August 4, 1996 at Norton, WV, death certificate issued by the State of Georgia (SSN 259-05-1542)
      • SSN indicates issuance in Georgia
      • a possible hit?

      [*]one born in 1926, died November 13, 2004 (too late?), St. Charles, MO, issued by Missouri

      [*]other born 1941, too late to have served in WWII ...

I've contacted the Inter Mountain Newspaper at Buckhannon, WV, the closest "major" city to Norton, and they are researching for me where I might be able to find more information about the death of any Richard Carr during that timeframe in that area. The nearest library to Norton, which may have older newspapers on microfiche, is also in Buckhannon (304-472-2339) in the event anyone wants to follow up with them in the meanwhile. The Buckhannon Record Delta also suggests contacting the library, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution does not have death notices prior to 1998 (but does have contact info for death records in the various counties).

For the sake of knowing, Antti, where were you able to find Carr's enlistment data? No data regarding his membership in the Rangers, tho' that would probably occur after enlistment rather than at enlistment(?).

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Duke's (and Annti, and many others) method of research is clearly a model worth contemplating. To my mind, the thorughness, the presentation, the follow up cimittment are all to be applauded. Another important thing is that he sticks to his subject.

I'm more spreculative, looking at what if, what then, why etc...

All speculations re Craig originated by comments from me, not Duke. If any crap has to be thrown on the matter, do it in my direction, not Dukes' in any attempt to smear HIS contributions.

________________________

December 7, '41 led to the the For America, German Bund, KKK groupings going underground and saw a swell of enlitments.

RRC enlisted in 2 October '42.

____

wiki :

September 1941

1: With the assistance of Finnish armies in the North, Leningrad is now completely cut off.

1: A pro-German Government of National Salvation formed in Serbia under Milan Nedić. It is informally known as Nedić's Serbia.

4: The USS Greer becomes the first United States warship fired upon by a German U-boat in the war, even though the United States is a neutral power. Tension heightens between the two nations as a result. The US is now committed to convoy duties between the Western Hemisphere and Europe.

5: Germany occupies Estonia.

7: Berlin is heavily hit by RAF bombers.

8: Siege of Leningrad begins-a reasonable date to start measuring "the 900 days." German forces begin a siege against the Soviet Union's second-largest city, Leningrad; Stalin orders the Volga Deutsche deported to Siberia.

10: German armies now have Kiev completely surrounded.

10: Controversial speech by Charles Lindbergh with heavy anti-Semitic overtones.

11: Franklin D. Roosevelt orders the United States Navy to shoot on sight if any ship or convoy is threatened.

15: "Self-government" of Estonia, headed by Hjalmar Mäe, is appointed by German military administration.

16: Reza Pahlavi, Shah of Iran is forced to resign in favour of his son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of Iran under pressure from the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union.

19: German capture of Kiev is now formal. The Red Army forces have suffered many casualties in defending this important city in the Soviet Union south.

25: The German armies now seem to have isolated the Caucasus region and are ready to absorb this oil-rich area.

27: The National Liberation Front (EAM) is founded in Greece.

28: German SS troops kill over 30,000 Jews at Babi Yar, on the outskirts of Kiev, Ukraine.

28: The first uprising in the Drama region in Greece against the Bulgarian occupation begins. It is swiftly put down, with ca. 3,000, mostly civilians, dead.

26: The US Naval Command orders an all-out war on Axis shipping in American waters.

October 1941

2: Operation Typhoon - German "Central" forces begin an all-out offensive against Moscow. Leading the defense of the capital is General Georgi Zhukov, already a Hero of Soviet Union for his command in the conflict against the Japanese in the Russian Far East and at Leningrad.

3: Mahatma Gandhi urges his followers to begin a passive resistance against British rule in India.

7: Heavy RAF night bombings of Berlin, the Ruhr, and Cologne, but with heavy losses too.

8: In their invasion of the southern Soviet Union, Germany reaches the Sea of Azov with the capture of Mariupol. However, there are signs that the invasion is beginning to bog down as rainy weather creates muddy roads for both tanks and men.

10: German armies encircle about 660,000 Red Army troops near Vyasma (east of Smolensk); some make a glowing prediction of the end of the war.

12: HMS Ark Royal delivers a squadron of Hurricane fighter planes to Malta.

13: Germans attempt another drive toward Moscow as the once muddy ground hardens.

14: Temperatures fall further on the Moscow front; heavy snows follow and immobilize German tanks.

15: The Germans drive on Moscow.

16: Soviet Union government begins move eastward to Kuibyshev, a city on the Volga, but Stalin remains in Moscow. The citizens of Moscow frantically build tank traps and other fortifications for the coming siege.

17: The destroyer USS Kearney is torpedoed and damaged near Iceland, killing eleven sailors; they are the first American military casualties of the war.

18: Red Army troop reinforcements arrive in Moscow from Siberia; Stalin is assured that the Japanese will not attack the USSR from the East.

18: General Hideki Tojo becomes the 40th Prime Minister of Japan.

19: An official "state of siege" is announced in Moscow; The city is under martial law.

20: Lt. Col. Fritz Hotz, the German commander in Nantes, is killed by Resistance; 50 hostages are shot in reprisal. The incident will become a model for future occupation policies.

21: New Zealand troops land in Egypt and take over Fort Capuzzo.

21: Negotiations in Washington between the US and Japan seem headed toward failure.

22: Rostov-on-Don, an important hub on the Southern front, is taken by the Germans.

23: Heavy desert fighting in Libya, as Rommel thwarts "Operation Crusader" near Tobruk.

24: Kharkhov, an important mining and industrial centre in Ukraine, falls to the German Army Group South forces.

26: Last Italian troops are surrendering in Ethiopia.

27: German Army Group South forces reach Sevastopol in the Crimea, but the tanks of the "Northern" forces are slow or stopped entirely by mud. The leading tanks are on the outskirts of Moscow.

30: Franklin Delano Roosevelt approves US$1 billion in Lend-Lease aid to the Soviet Union.

31: The destroyer USS Reuben James is torpedoed by a German U-boat near Iceland, killing more than 100 United States Navy sailors. It makes headlines because it is the first loss of an American "neutral warship."

_________________

"September 1942

3: The Battle of Stalingrad proper may be said to have begun on this date, with German troops in the suburbs; even civilian men and boys are conscripted by the Red Army to assist in the defence.

4: There is IRA rioting in Belfast during the night.

Manhattan Engineering District is formally created, full-effort production of the atomic bomb is begun.

5: Australian and U.S. forces defeat Japanese forces at Milne Bay, Papua, the first outright defeat for Japanese land forces in the Pacific War. Their evacuation and the failure to establish an airbase eases the threat to Australia.

6: The Black Sea port of Novorossisk is taken by the Germans.

9: A Japanese plane drops more incendiaries on Oregon, but with little effect.

10: RAF blasts Düsseldorf with large incendiary bombing.

10: (to the 14th). The Battle of "Bloody Ridge", Guadalcanal: Americans drive off Japanese forces attempting to recapture Henderson Field.

12: RMS Laconia, carrying civilians, Allied soldiers and Italian POWs, is torpedoed off the coast of West Africa and sinks.

12: Second Quebec Conference (to the 16th): FDR and Churchill agree to postwar occupation zones in Germany and further Lend-Lease arrangements.

13: The Battle for Stalingrad continues; it is now totally surrounded by the Germans. On the Soviet Union side General Vasily Chuikov is put in charge of the defence.

14: The Japanese retreat again from Henderson Field, Guadalcanal.

14: The Japanese are now within 30 miles of Port Moresby, New Guinea, on the Kokoda trail.

14: Continued convoy losses in the Atlantic.

15: Americans send troops to Port Moresby as reinforcements for the Australian defenders.

15: Light carrier USS WaspTemplate:WP Ships USS instances is sunk by a Japanese submarine off Guadalcanal.

18: Battle of the "grain silo" in Stalingrad; the Germans are beaten back. The Red Army begins ferrying troops across the Volga at night.

20: RAF bombs Munich and Saarbrucken.

20: The Greek PEAN group blows up the offices of the pro-Nazi ESPO group in central Athens, thwarting attempts to raise a Greek volunteer legion for the Eastern Front.

23: General Rommel leaves North Africa for medical treatment in Germany.

27: The Battle of Matanikau River, Guadalcanal; Japanese naval bombardment and landing forces nearly destroy Henderson field in an attempt to take it, but the land forces are soon driven back.

28: The Japanese continue their retreat back down the Kokoda trail in New Guinea.

30: The Eagle Squadron (American volunteers in the RAF) are officially transferred to the US Army Air Force.

30: Hitler speaks to the nation and boasts that Stalingrad will be taken.

October 1942

3: First successful launch of A4-rocket at Peenemünde, Germany. The rocket flies 147 kilometres wide and reaches a height of 84.5 kilometres and is therefore the first man-made object reaching space.

4: British Commandos raid Sark, a Channel Island, capturing one German soldier.

6: By mutual arrangement, the Allies agree on a strategy whereby Americans will bomb in the daytime and the RAF at night.

11: Battle of Cape Esperance - On the Northwest coast of Guadalcanal, United States Navy ships intercept and defeat a Japanese fleet on their way to reinforce troops on the island. With the help of radar they sink one cruiser and several Japanese destroyers.

12: The Red Army methods of ferrying troops across the Volga and into Stalingrad directly seems to be a success, as the German advance comes to a halt.

12: The US 100th Infantry Battalion, a force of over 1,400 predominantly Nisei became active.

13: Heavy bombardment of Henderson Field, Guadalcanal by the Japanese navy.

14: A German U-boat sinks the ferry SS Caribou, killing 137.

18: Hitler issues Commando Order, ordering all captured commandos to be executed immediately.

18: Admiral William "Bull" Halsey is given command of the South Pacific naval forces.

21: Heavy RAF activity over El Alamein.

22: Conscription age in Britain reduced to 18.

22: American General Mark Clark secretly lands in Algeria to confer with Vichy officials and Resistance groups in preparation for impending Allied invasion.

23: Second Battle of El Alamein begins with massive Allied bombardment of German positions. Then Australian forces, mainly, begin advance while offshore British naval forces support the right flank (n.b. the ongoing concurrent victories being prepared at Guadalcanal and Stalingrad.)

24: US Navy Task Force 34, consisting of aircraft carriers, a variety of support ships, including Troop Ships and other vessels, set sail from Hampton Roads, Virginia with Patton's forces for Operation Torch, the landing in North Africa. The other two task forces of Operation Torch, the first American-led force to fight in the European and African theatres of war, depart Britain for Morocco.

24: Crisis at El Alamein: British tanks survive German 88mm fire; Montgomery orders the advance to continue despite losses.

25: Rommel hurriedly returns from his sickbed in Germany to take charge of the African battle. (His replacement, General Stumme had died of a heart attack).

25: The Japanese continue their attacks on the Marines west of Henderson field.

26: The naval Battle of Santa Cruz. The Japanese lose many aircraft and have two aircraft carriers severely damaged. The USS HornetTemplate:WP Ships USS instances is sunk and the USS EnterpriseTemplate:WP Ships USS instances is damaged.

29: The Japanese continue to send troops as reinforcements into Guadalcanal.

31: The British make a critical breakthrough with tanks west of El Alamein; Rommel's mine fields fail to stop the Allied armour.

29: In the United Kingdom, leading clergymen and political figures hold a public meeting to register outrage over Nazi Germany's persecution of Jews."

Edited by John Dolva
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Duke and others.

I have registered as a member on ancestry.com

That is the source through which I have access to social security and other publicly available government data (a fee is required). By signing up to paid services I am able to read the information on-line. There is a cancellation policy, which enables no charge if you cancel within 14 days.... :lol:

The military enlistment data came from ancestry.com and apparently the US Government military records.

Here's the latest message from another member, just confirming what Duke found out about a potential Richard R. Carr, born in 1922, GA:

"That I can help you with. I just needed a few more facts. -- Pat

RICHARD R CARR 29 Apr 1922 04 Aug 1996 (V) 26285 (Norton, Randolph, WV) (none specified) 259-05-1542 Georgia

Source: Social Security Death Index"

So, death on Aug. 4th 1996 (Norton, Randolph, WV), the local paper should be able to help with the obituary.

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[...] Whether he could have seen such a person 250+ yards away with the clarity he claims to have (able to discern not only someone wearing glasses beneath a hat brim, but also that the frames were "thick") is an altogether different question, and it appears from the descriptions I'd posted from an Army artillery manual that well pre-dates even Carr's birth, that he could not have. [...]

______________________________________________________

Dear Detective Lane,

Isn't it reasonable to assume that the only way Carr was able to discern that the man in the window was wearing any kind of glasses at all was because he (the man) was wearing glasses with frames sufficiently thick and dark-colored to, by definition, be visible to a keen-eyed observer some 250 yards away? If so, then we only need to determine whether or not Carr was sufficiently keen-eyed. LOL

The sort of glasses that Richard Cain was known to wear, for example?

Oh, by the way, I wonder what kind of glasses Malcolm (Mac) Wallace was wearing in the Fall of 1963?

Does your Army Artillery Manual actually say that it is unfeasable to try to spy thick, dark-colored, "horn rimmed" glass frames with the naked eye from 250 yards away? LOL

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Wow,

Finding more information was easier than I thought.

I am now convinced that Richard Randolph Carr is indeed the man born in Georgia in 1922, enlisted in the Army in 1942 and passed away in West Virginia in 1996. That is, I'm 90% sure he is also the man who witnessed the JFK assassination.

To find out the middle name of Richard R. Carr (that is as precise as they were about his name which had been filed in SSDI and military). All I did to find out that the middle initial indeed was "Randolph" was to go to whitepages.com to see if he or a relative (Carr) had a listing in Norton WV. By golly they sure did.

http://preview.ussearch.com/preview/ala/ne...earchtab=people

Myrtle Carr is Richard's wife no doubt and I bet she'd have a few stories to tell. She is listed in Norton, WV.

Apparently so are RR Carr's son or brother (Jack), and nephew or grandson (Kevin).

Anyone brave enough to call?

Edited by Antti Hynonen
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