The Education Forum

# From that "Other Place"

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Whew! Another of those multiple and "compounded" questionaire's!

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> Contrary to what Altgens said. He said that the headshot occurred in

> front of him. From where he was standing, the limo was only about 10

> feet from his position so even if he was accurate in estimating 15 feet,

> that could be anywhere from 10 feet before JFK passed or 10 feet after.

>

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Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

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Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

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Now! Be sure and correct me in event that I am wrong, however, it would appear that Altgens stated that he was "about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car"

Homework time: Elm St has three lanes. Elm St was 40-feet wide. Each lane of Elm St. was approximately 13 1/3 feet in width. Therefore, the Presidential Limo, travelling down the center lane, would be approximately 15 feet from Altgens position when the vehicle was directly in front of James Altgens (13 1/3 feet for first lane, (+/-) a couple of feet to the side of the limo as it travelled down the center lane = approximately 15 feet from Altgens position standing on the curb to the side of the limo as it passed directly in front of Altgens.

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And you have medical evidence of this?

Why not contact the National Archives. In event that you will send them a few dollars then I have little doubt that they will send you a copy of the "Abrasion Collar" drawing which was presented as a part of the Medical Panel evaluation of wounds. It happens to clearly demonstrate how the wound of entry becomes "elongated" based on the angle of attack of the projectile against the skin and tissue of the body.

Had JBC been sitting even close to erect at time of impact of the projectile into his right rear shoulder, then the bullet would have created a VERTICALLY elongated wound of entry.

Rather than the HORIZONTALLY elongated wound of entry which he incurred.

P.S. Also helps to discuss the subject matter with a Forensic Pathologist or two, or even a qualified Medical Examiner, in event that one does not fully get this.

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> Why does the position of Moorman and Hill have anything to do with this?

> What about the positions of all the other witnesses who consistently

> stated the limo positions where the three shots occurred?

A relatively broad and "open-ended" question. Nevertheless, as examples:

1. The Moorman/Hill location is critical in understanding as the first yellow curb marking is clearly defined.

The Z313 impact was 5-feet farther down Elm St. from the location of the edge of this marking.

Corresponding! James Altgens was standing exactly 5-feet from the second yellow curb marking (at the location of a construction joint in the concrete curbing I might add).

The distance between the edges of the two yellow curb markins was approximately 42.5 feet.

Therefore, at the time of the Z313 impact, JFK was some 37.5 feet back up Elm St. from the Altgens location.

Which, due to the street elevation difference between the limo and where Altgens was standing, as well as the angular position of the limo in Elm St., made it physically impossible for him to have observed the Z313 impact to the head of JFK, even had he been looking. (which he was not, as he was resetting the focal length on his camera's lense)

Secondly, in event that one will fully follow the WC's charades, they will find that the WC "moved" Altgens location to a point which would have placed him back up Elm St. so far that he would have been standing between the Moorman/Hill/first yellow stripe location, and the TSDB. Approximately 60-feet away from where he was actually standing.

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS - This is the Book Depository Building, correct?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.

(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.)

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER - You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0487a.htm

Now! One could, in event that they so desired, assume that James Altgens was so confused that he did not know whether he was standing between the Moorman/Hill/first yellow stripe location and the TSDB, or whether he was standing farther down Elm St. past the Moorman/Hill/first yellow curb mark, almost to the second yellow curb marking, and closer to the triple overpass than to the TSDB.

However, since James Altgens picture, as taken in the Zapruder film, appeared in newspapers nationwide shortly after the assassination, I would personally assume that James Altgens knew almost exactly where he was standing.

Especially since:

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you.

With this, the WC then continued their charade and gave us the completely phony alignment of the reenactment photograph which purportedy represented the Altgens Z255 position.

CE900

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0054a.htm

In which the reenactment photo is not even close to have been taken from the Altgens position.*

*One should add in that the US Secret Service was fully aware of the Altgens position and took reenactment photo's from his absolute and exact location which is/was clearly defined by the construction joint in the concrete curbing of Elm St. which was located exactly 5-feet prior to the second yellow curb marking.

Lastly, in regards to the Moorman/Hill location (in this storyline anyway), one would be remiss were they to NOT point out that, as with much of the evidence, the Altgens 255 photo as presented in the "Reenactment", has been severely trimmed, in the reenactment photo as well as the submitted seperately Commissin Exhibit.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0304b.htm

In that regards, let me now reveal for the first time a partial reason for that trimming.

The WC placed James Altgens location as being between the Moorman/Hill location and the TSDB.

However, and heretofore (for the first time I might add), one can easily look at a full sized (non-trimmed) copy of the Altgens Z255 photo and:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...&fullsize=1

Which clearly shows the crack in the asphalt pavement of Elm St. which runs across the street and intersects the curbing in the center of the first yellow curb mark location (ie: Moorman/Hill location) as well as also showing the shadow of Mary Moorman and Jean Hill.

Which most assuredly should tell a prudent person that James Altgens was located considerably farther down Elm St. than the Moorman/Hill location, and most certainly was not in some asinine position which placed him between the Moorman/Hill location and the TSDB.

Without a full grasp of the importance of the Moorman/Hill location; the yellow curb markings; identifiable features in the asphalt street; construction joints in concrete sidewalks and curbing; and the true and exact position of James Altgens down by the second yellow curb marking, one is most unlikely to understand the witness statements and how they correlate with the the impact locations for the second/aka Z313 shot as well as the third/last/final shot which struck JFK in the head directly in front of James Altgens location.

Sufficient?

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First, you have Nellie C. who said that JBC was sitting up and turned

> right when the second shot was heard. She said that the third and last

> caused a spray of matter - it felt like spent buckshot. JBC said he felt

> it too, and it was after he was shot.

Did you happen to notice that what JBC stated from his hospital bed does not correspond with that testimony which he later gave to the WC?

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Nearly everyone said that the third shot hit JFK in the head and that

> was the last shot.

Do not know exactly who "nearly everyone" is, but the witnesses did not state any such thing.

Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the tripple underpass and Houston, where the steps are - somewhere near about halfway.

I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

note: In event that one will go across the street from the "steps", and then go back up the street a short distance, they will come to the second yellow curb marking and James Altgens location.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

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And:

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.

Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?

Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.

Mr. STERN - To his right?

Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat,

Now! Had not Mr. Costello removed his Z-film frames, one can see in frame Z312 JBC with his right forearm basically parallel to the ground and extended slightly to the right, which happens to have placed his arm and wrist in the exact position necessary to have received the fragment wound to the wrist from the Z313 impact and severely fragmenting bullet.

Mr. SPECTER - Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that?

Dr. GREGORY - I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

A pretty safe assumption considersing the the wound was created by an irregular fragment of limited velocity which cut and tore the radial nerve as well as having torn various fibers of fabric from the coat and shirt and carried them down into the wound of entry on the back side of the wrist.

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• 2 weeks later...

Tom,

Looking at Mr. Altgens position in Zapruder frames 348 to 360 isn’t it a fair observation that the First Lady was blocking his view of JFK’s head when he heard the his third shot.

Chris Brown.