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Hi Karl.

So, among other things, I understood from one conversation with GPH that he suggested to Stone during the filming - since you have all of these various actors out here with cameras - why not load them with film and have them take photos?

That's what it appears you have here. Best I can offer.

Chairs.

- lee

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Bump, because still unanswered

Thx

KK

Unanswered?

These were taken by Oliver Stones camera man!

During the shooting recreation by Kevin Costner in court, they use this short filmed part to show JFK being pushed forward by a shot in the back

Pop in your copy of JFK and fast forward to the end of the movie and when the shot that hits JFK in the back is fired you will see all of these frames that you posted as a film

It was Stone mixing in real footage and his own footage that he shot, just look at all the bystanders, they are in different spots with different clothes on

How anybody thinks this is anything other then footage shot by Stone for the film JFK just blows my mind

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Bump, because still unanswered

Thx

KK

Unanswered?

These were taken by Oliver Stones camera man!

During the shooting recreation by Kevin Costner in court, they use this short filmed part to show JFK being pushed forward by a shot in the back

Pop in your copy of JFK and fast forward to the end of the movie and when the shot that hits JFK in the back is fired you will see all of these frames that you posted as a film

It was Stone mixing in real footage and his own footage that he shot, just look at all the bystanders, they are in different spots with different clothes on

How anybody thinks this is anything other then footage shot by Stone for the film JFK just blows my mind

What blows my mind is the inaccuracy in these frames. There are five (sic)bystanders inserted, which are not on the Zappi film -- just across the Umbrella man on the south side of elm. A agent-looking man, running, and four ladys, one pointing in the direction of the UM. Now, bear in mind, that Groden, the (former) king of the Zappi-Film-Experts, was Stones adviser...on the other hand, the movement of the arm of the DCM ,or the backward angle of the antenna of motorcycle of hargis fit the Zappi film completely. Why this mixture of exact immitation(if the film is a recreation), and obvious blunder(five bystanders inserted - just for fun?)

Last but not least: as a Zappi-Film-alterationist, I believe, the background of DP, when the Lincoln is passing by, is a artificial one.

I am asking myself: for what reason they did this, since we know, this causes the vanishing Limo-Stop...or near stop, in which I believe. Possible answer: to wipe out some suspicious persons on the south side on elm? Just speculation, but I think the mystery frames deserve a closer examination. If shot by a member of the Stone team, I would like to know his name and see the full film.

KK

BTW

The south side of elm agent, (among the woman)now walking, can also be seen here:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vufs5e.jpg

I don't know the origin of this frame...if this is a Stone-Creation, on the advise of Groden, why the funny shadows? (Have a look) (On elm Patrolman Smith...or the actor patrolman Smith?)

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The south side of elm agent, (among the woman)now walking, can also be seen here:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vufs5e.jpg

I don't know the origin of this frame...if this is a Stone-Creation, on the advise of Groden, why the funny shadows? (Have a look) (On elm Patrolman Smith...or the actor patrolman Smith?)

JFK Assassination Short Aftermath On The Grassy Knoll Scene Recreation

Wow..thank you...I would say this is the same "agent" we see in the mystery frames...if your video is an original, than I have to think about it sharp. The sequence in your video is about, I guess, 7 to 10 Sec. after the shooting, and one must ask: where the hell is this agent come from? He is nowhere seen on Zapruder...but: on that mystery frames...

Who made that film?

KK

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Who made that film?

KK

Oliver Stone: JFK The Movie.

If we are taking about the "Aftermath fragment" I don't think so...it appears IN Stones movie, that not automatically means, that he made it.

It could be original footage...I regard the origin of the mystery frames and the aftermath fragment as an still unanswered question.

KK

IF this are Stone recreations---

Why the hell this south side agent, in both, the myst. frames AND the aftermath fragment. That makes no sense to me. (An Idea out of the blue by Stone/Groden?: Oh lets see there is to much green in the Frames let's put some ladies and an agent on the lawn of Dealy plaza...LOL

KK

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Who made that film?

KK

Oliver Stone: JFK The Movie.

If we are taking about the "Aftermath fragment" I don't think so...it appears IN Stones movie, that not automatically means, that he made it.

It could be original footage...I regard the origin of the mystery frames and the aftermath fragment as an still unanswered question.

KK

IF this are Stone recreations---

Why the hell this south side agent, in both, the myst. frames AND the aftermath fragment. That makes no sense to me. (An Idea out of the blue by Stone/Groden?: Oh lets see there is to much green in the Frames let's put some ladies and an agent on the lawn of Dealy plaza...LOL

KK

You need to listen to the movie!

Costner is saying how the Policeman smelled gunpowder and rushed acrossthe street to the knoll

Thats what this scene is showing, thats the reason that Stone recorded it, to show the policeman running across the street

Its not real footage! Just look at the people in the scene compared to the people in real footage!

Remember the blond actress that was playing a Jean Hill composit? Look at her in the red coat with blond hair! Now look at all the rest of the real footage of the real Jean Hill with brown/dark hair!

This is so simple, I cant believe you think this is not footage shot by Stone

He used old cameras and during editing him and his editors made the film look old (remember they won an Acadamy Award for film editing)

Again all this is is a scene shot by Stone to show the policeman running across the street

Watch the movie again and listen

What kills me is back in 1991 as a teenager I knew the films and photos like the back of my hand and I remember pickingout all of the footage that was shot by Stone compared to the real footage

Your un-answered question is answered, if you still think it is real footage shot in Dealey Plaza that day then I dont know what to think about you and your reasons for thinking its real

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MYSTERY FRAMES. Sixth floor museum clueless

Karl Kinaski,

Gary Mack has sent you this email from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php.

Those aren't Oliver Stone frames - he did a much more accurate job with how he dressed and placed his actors. But the frames do come from one of the many other recreations filmed in Dallas over the years.

Gary Mack

Me:

Yes. I am convinced they are not from Stone. If it is an earlier recreation I would like to track down the originators of this movie. I would like to see the whole recreation. Just to rule out the possibility, that these frames are another set of manipulated Zapruder frames... as I said it in the Ed-Forum: the origin of this frames is an unanswered question.

KK

PS

May I put your email into the forum, to inflame the discussion?

Thx

Karl,

I don’t mind you passing along the email or this one, but I was referring to the “Zapruder” view you posted back in 2009. That’s a different film than the “aftermath” scene which might very well have been in the Stone film. I was on the set that day and he had all the Elm Street bystanders in the right locations (well, Babushka was off but close enough) and wearing the right color and style of clothes. I talked to some of the actors and they were surprised he was able to find a company that could come up with so much early 60s clothing for them.

That’s why I doubted the “Zapruder” film frames came from Stone, for why would he spend the time and money to make sure everyone matched the Z film but then film other scenes in which they didn’t? The people in the frames you posted two years ago certainly weren’t there on 11/22.

And as I said, many re-creations have been done over the years starting in the mid-60s. I’ve seen most of them and they aren’t very accurate. Stone did a great job getting that part correct.

There was a Twilight Zone version in 1985, a Quantum Leap episode in 1992, and several others. The Quantum Leap two-part episode airs tomorrow morning on the G4 cable channel, so you might take a look at that.

As for the “aftermath” scene, I’d have to dig out the “JFK” DVD and go through the entire film…..please don’t ask me to do that. :)

Gary

---

Karl,

23.1. 2012

The Quantum Leap program aired this morning, but I recorded and watched it. The assassination was not recreated the way your curious 2009 frames show. So I don't know where they came from, but am still confident they did not come from any part of the Stone film.

Gary

Me:

If the Mystery Frames are not from Stone (acc. to Gary Mack), and nobody can find a recreation which fit them, there is IMO only one conclusion left: these frames are just another set of manipulated Zapruder-Frames.

KK

PS It is my understanding, that Gary Mack claims, that the short aftermath-szene, posted by Duncan in this thread, is a Stone-Recreation.

I think that is not the case...

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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MYSTERY FRAMES. Sixth floor museum clueless

Karl Kinaski,

Gary Mack has sent you this email from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php.

Those aren't Oliver Stone frames - he did a much more accurate job with how he dressed and placed his actors. But the frames do come from one of the many other recreations filmed in Dallas over the years.

Gary Mack

Me:

Yes. I am convinced they are not from Stone. If it is an earlier recreation I would like to track down the originators of this movie. I would like to see the whole recreation. Just to rule out the possibility, that these frames are another set of manipulated Zapruder frames... as I said it in the Ed-Forum: the origin of this frames is an unanswered question.

KK

PS

May I put your email into the forum, to inflame the discussion?

Thx

Karl,

I don’t mind you passing along the email or this one, but I was referring to the “Zapruder” view you posted back in 2009. That’s a different film than the “aftermath” scene which might very well have been in the Stone film. I was on the set that day and he had all the Elm Street bystanders in the right locations (well, Babushka was off but close enough) and wearing the right color and style of clothes. I talked to some of the actors and they were surprised he was able to find a company that could come up with so much early 60s clothing for them.

That’s why I doubted the “Zapruder” film frames came from Stone, for why would he spend the time and money to make sure everyone matched the Z film but then film other scenes in which they didn’t? The people in the frames you posted two years ago certainly weren’t there on 11/22.

And as I said, many re-creations have been done over the years starting in the mid-60s. I’ve seen most of them and they aren’t very accurate. Stone did a great job getting that part correct.

There was a Twilight Zone version in 1985, a Quantum Leap episode in 1992, and several others. The Quantum Leap two-part episode airs tomorrow morning on the G4 cable channel, so you might take a look at that.

As for the “aftermath” scene, I’d have to dig out the “JFK” DVD and go through the entire film…..please don’t ask me to do that. :)

Gary

---

Karl,

23.1. 2012

The Quantum Leap program aired this morning, but I recorded and watched it. The assassination was not recreated the way your curious 2009 frames show. So I don't know where they came from, but am still confident they did not come from any part of the Stone film.

Gary

Me:

If the Mystery Frames are not from Stone (acc. to Gary Mack), and nobody can find a recreation which fit them, there is IMO only one conclusion left: these frames are just another set of manipulated Zapruder-Frames.

KK

PS It is my understanding, that Gary Mack claims, that the short aftermath-szene, posted by Duncan in this thread, is a Stone-Recreation.

I think that is not the case...

Karl

Are the mystery frames from "the Watchmen" I have only seen it once but it looked pretty good but did not have time to review it .

Ian

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@ Ian Kingsbuy: they appear in the Stones Movie JFK, but the are not shot by him, or his men. Apparently Stone was using in his movie JFK "old-elm-street- footage" given to him, without knowing anything about the origin of it.

Duncan and Hagerman are convinced, Stone shot this frames. Gary Mack and me are not. The 6th floor museum crew is clueless who shot the Mystery frames.

KK

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Sry - hope I got it right now:

AFTERMATH FILM. (shot from south side Elm Street) shot by:

according to:

MacRae: no clue (not from The Watchmen)

Hagerman: STONE

Mack: no clue (not from The Watchmen, not from the Quantum Leap Programm)

Kinaski: no clue. Ask Stone or Groden who was Stones main adviser. 

MYSTERY FRAMES: (Shot from Zapruders position) shot by:

according to.

Jack White: Never seen bevore

McRae: STONE

Hagerman : STONE

Gary Mack : STONE

Kinaski: Not sure. Ask Stone or Groden who was Stones main adviser.

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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The part that makes me think Stone shot the Zapruder recreation is because it shows JFK being thrown forward by the back wound

Listen to the movie and watch that scene all the way through

Costner says that this shot hit JFK in the back driving him forward and the recreation shows him being thrown forward dramaticly

Right after that we see real Zappy footage of JFK slowly moving forward

Why would Stone look for footage of JFK being thrown forward when he was hit in the back (which im sure dose not exsist, as I have seen just about every show and movie with a recreation) instead of just making his own footage?

Some of the bystanders are correct, but most in the background seem to be running or milling around

Its possible Stone shot this footage as an afterthought or in one of the run thoughs of the limo in Dealey Plaza told the JFK actor to move forward as if he had been shot

Im positive Stone shot that footage, it fits what Costner is explaining at that moment in the film

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