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Guest Tom Scully

Bill,

The editor writes in his bio that he is an MD, but he doesn't want to read details, and he calls me a "cold man", because I earlier questioned the delay between JFK's Fort Worth breakfast speech and the 11:20 am AF-1 take-off for the unnecessary flight to Love field. I had shared the observation with him that they had put the president through the discomfort of boarding and then unboarding a twenty minute flight that put the president in a locale more distant to travel by automobile to the scheduled Trade Mart lunch, than if the president had been driven directly there from Fort Worth. This is a guy who has done more than 20,000 edits to articles that are served up, most of the time, in the top five google search results. No need to worry that the internets and the google will influence the public to become so well informed that they become wealthy in great numbers and unleash massive inflation, is there?

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Bill,

The editor writes in his bio that he is an MD, but he doesn't want to read details, and he calls me a "cold man", because I earlier questioned the delay between JFK's Fort Worth breakfast speech and the 11:20 am AF-1 take-off for the unnecessary flight to Love field. I had shared the observation with him that they had put the president through the discomfort of boarding and then unboarding a twenty minute flight that put the president in a locale more distant to travel by automobile to the scheduled Trade Mart lunch, than if the president had been driven directly there from Fort Worth. This is a guy who has done more than 20,000 edits to articles that are served up, most of the time, in the top five google search results. No need to worry that the internets and the google will influence the public to become so well informed that they become wealthy in great numbers and unleash massive inflation, is there?

Hi Tom,

Yes, the ten minute flight from the Fort Worth SAC base to Love Field was unnecessary but was arranged by a number of coincidences - or so they call them.

JFK was going to drive from Ft. Worth to Dallas to get an honorary degree from Texas Christian University, and the Womens Building near the State Fairground (I think - I'm sure a Dallasite will correct me if I'm wrong), was to be the site of the luncheon, and that's the way it was when JFK's chief advance man Jerry Bruno left Dallas.

Once he was gone however, TCU held a meeting and decided they didn't want to give JFK an honorary degree after all, and that cancelation left open the time for a motorcade, that JFK and the White House wanted, but John Connally didn't. But Connally wanted the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, even though it was smaller and had many more security concerns. In order to have a motorcade through downtown Dallas they wanted to begin at Love Field and end at the Trade Mart, which would have made the route through Dealey Plaza necessary.

As far as I can tell the people who engineered the Trade Mart site and motorcade route were John Connally, Jack Peuterbach of the Democratic Natonal Committee (and Dept. of Agriculture), Sam Bloom of the Chamber of Commerce and the Secret Service.

Even after the cancellation of the TCU event, they still could have drove the short distance from Ft. Worth to Dallas and did their downtown tour quicker than they could flying there.

I don't know if getting the truth up on Wiki is a significant battle, won or lost.

BK

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Bill,

The editor writes in his bio that he is an MD, but he doesn't want to read details, and he calls me a "cold man", because I earlier questioned the delay between JFK's Fort Worth breakfast speech and the 11:20 am AF-1 take-off for the unnecessary flight to Love field. I had shared the observation with him that they had put the president through the discomfort of boarding and then unboarding a twenty minute flight that put the president in a locale more distant to travel by automobile to the scheduled Trade Mart lunch, than if the president had been driven directly there from Fort Worth. This is a guy who has done more than 20,000 edits to articles that are served up, most of the time, in the top five google search results. No need to worry that the internets and the google will influence the public to become so well informed that they become wealthy in great numbers and unleash massive inflation, is there?

Hi Tom,

Yes, the ten minute flight from the Fort Worth SAC base to Love Field was unnecessary but was arranged by a number of coincidences - or so they call them.

JFK was going to drive from Ft. Worth to Dallas to get an honorary degree from Texas Christian University, and the Womens Building near the State Fairground (I think - I'm sure a Dallasite will correct me if I'm wrong), was to be the site of the luncheon, and that's the way it was when JFK's chief advance man Jerry Bruno left Dallas.

Once he was gone however, TCU held a meeting and decided they didn't want to give JFK an honorary degree after all, and that cancelation left open the time for a motorcade, that JFK and the White House wanted, but John Connally didn't. But Connally wanted the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, even though it was smaller and had many more security concerns. In order to have a motorcade through downtown Dallas they wanted to begin at Love Field and end at the Trade Mart, which would have made the route through Dealey Plaza necessary.

As far as I can tell the people who engineered the Trade Mart site and motorcade route were John Connally, Jack Peuterbach of the Democratic Natonal Committee (and Dept. of Agriculture), Sam Bloom of the Chamber of Commerce and the Secret Service.

Even after the cancellation of the TCU event, they still could have drove the short distance from Ft. Worth to Dallas and did their downtown tour quicker than they could flying there.

I don't know if getting the truth up on Wiki is a significant battle, won or lost.

BK

Following up on yesterdays developments, I discovered that the Dec. 2, 1963 DeBrueys document referenced is CD 75, which is a rather interesting document in its own right. Strangely, in the index at the end, Hosty's name does not come up, which, interpreting my last post, might not be the dead end, that one might feel it to be, [remember Hoch's allegation that Hosty's name had been ommitted from the "threatening Oswald note."

What I did next was attempt to locate a section of CD 75 that contained a rather significant passage, it turns out I chose Sam "Monk" Zelden, hopefully no explanation of my logic is needed.....what happened next was rather unique.

A Few years ago I had been exchanging information with Douglas Valentine, who is a rather significant researcher, if your taste lies in Federal Bureau of Narcotics information, arguably, ommitted from the Warren Report and MKULTRA, he had told me about the Shaw/Allen FOIA documents.....

It just happened that my hit for searching Sam Monk Zelden led me to a part of the Mary Ferrell site I knew existed, but had never looked at, [aside: the MFF website can be argued to be sort of like getting lost in a library]

The end result of my endeavors is listed below.....

FBI Files - Shaw/Allen FOIA Cases

These FBI records were released in response to Freedom of Information Act suits filed by Gary Shaw and Mark Allen in the early 1980s. They pre-date the Assassination Records Review Board, and thus do not feature RIF header pages, and contain redactions which in most cases will have been removed in the current versions of the documents available at the National Archives.

1. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 1

2. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 2

3. Dean Adams Andrews - INS Referrals

4. Dean Adams Andrews - See References

5. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 1

6. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 2

7. Silvia Duran

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/docset/getList.do?docSetId=1897

I probably shouldn't say this, but if the Hosty Reports of 12/4-5/63 are not in these files, I would really be surprised. Just don't quote me on that.

Robert

Thanks to Bill, Tom Scully, and Jim Root for all that has been acomplished, needless to say this is not exactly an unimportant part of the case.

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  • 3 months later...

Bill,

The editor writes in his bio that he is an MD, but he doesn't want to read details, and he calls me a "cold man", because I earlier questioned the delay between JFK's Fort Worth breakfast speech and the 11:20 am AF-1 take-off for the unnecessary flight to Love field. I had shared the observation with him that they had put the president through the discomfort of boarding and then unboarding a twenty minute flight that put the president in a locale more distant to travel by automobile to the scheduled Trade Mart lunch, than if the president had been driven directly there from Fort Worth. This is a guy who has done more than 20,000 edits to articles that are served up, most of the time, in the top five google search results. No need to worry that the internets and the google will influence the public to become so well informed that they become wealthy in great numbers and unleash massive inflation, is there?

Hi Tom,

Yes, the ten minute flight from the Fort Worth SAC base to Love Field was unnecessary but was arranged by a number of coincidences - or so they call them.

JFK was going to drive from Ft. Worth to Dallas to get an honorary degree from Texas Christian University, and the Womens Building near the State Fairground (I think - I'm sure a Dallasite will correct me if I'm wrong), was to be the site of the luncheon, and that's the way it was when JFK's chief advance man Jerry Bruno left Dallas.

Once he was gone however, TCU held a meeting and decided they didn't want to give JFK an honorary degree after all, and that cancelation left open the time for a motorcade, that JFK and the White House wanted, but John Connally didn't. But Connally wanted the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, even though it was smaller and had many more security concerns. In order to have a motorcade through downtown Dallas they wanted to begin at Love Field and end at the Trade Mart, which would have made the route through Dealey Plaza necessary.

As far as I can tell the people who engineered the Trade Mart site and motorcade route were John Connally, Jack Peuterbach of the Democratic Natonal Committee (and Dept. of Agriculture), Sam Bloom of the Chamber of Commerce and the Secret Service.

Even after the cancellation of the TCU event, they still could have drove the short distance from Ft. Worth to Dallas and did their downtown tour quicker than they could flying there.

I don't know if getting the truth up on Wiki is a significant battle, won or lost.

BK

Following up on yesterdays developments, I discovered that the Dec. 2, 1963 DeBrueys document referenced is CD 75, which is a rather interesting document in its own right. Strangely, in the index at the end, Hosty's name does not come up, which, interpreting my last post, might not be the dead end, that one might feel it to be, [remember Hoch's allegation that Hosty's name had been ommitted from the "threatening Oswald note."

What I did next was attempt to locate a section of CD 75 that contained a rather significant passage, it turns out I chose Sam "Monk" Zelden, hopefully no explanation of my logic is needed.....what happened next was rather unique.

A Few years ago I had been exchanging information with Douglas Valentine, who is a rather significant researcher, if your taste lies in Federal Bureau of Narcotics information, arguably, ommitted from the Warren Report and MKULTRA, he had told me about the Shaw/Allen FOIA documents.....

It just happened that my hit for searching Sam Monk Zelden led me to a part of the Mary Ferrell site I knew existed, but had never looked at, [aside: the MFF website can be argued to be sort of like getting lost in a library]

The end result of my endeavors is listed below.....

FBI Files - Shaw/Allen FOIA Cases

These FBI records were released in response to Freedom of Information Act suits filed by Gary Shaw and Mark Allen in the early 1980s. They pre-date the Assassination Records Review Board, and thus do not feature RIF header pages, and contain redactions which in most cases will have been removed in the current versions of the documents available at the National Archives.

1. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 1

2. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 2

3. Dean Adams Andrews - INS Referrals

4. Dean Adams Andrews - See References

5. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 1

6. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 2

7. Silvia Duran

http://www.maryferre...o?docSetId=1897

I probably shouldn't say this, but if the Hosty Reports of 12/4-5/63 are not in these files, I would really be surprised. Just don't quote me on that.

Robert

Thanks to Bill, Tom Scully, and Jim Root for all that has been acomplished, needless to say this is not exactly an unimportant part of the case.

A.J. Weberman wrote up a significant analysis on information pertaining to the issue of documents floating back and forth

between the FBI and CIA, in the time period in question, early November 1963.

See below

On Thursday, November 7, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover sent S.A. Milton Kaack's October 31,

1963, New Orleans FBI report on OSWALD to the CIA. [CIA DBA-55715] J. Edgar

Hoover hadn't sent the CIA anything on OSWALD since the interview in August 1962

conducted by S.A. John Fain, which had been sent in September 1962. These reports

were shopped by the Records Integration Unit and CI/SIG had a look at them. CI/SIG's

interest in OSWALD was understandable in 1963: it knew of Oswald’s visit to the Soviet

Embassy, Mexico City and contact with the KGB.

On Friday, November 8, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover sent a report dated September 24,

1963, on OSWALD, to Richard Helms. The CIA received it on Tuesday, November 12,

1963. This was a New Orleans FBI Letter Head Memorandum on OSWALD'S Fair Play

for Cuba Committee activities. On November 8, 1963 the FBI received a report from

MEX-118. The report was received by Matthew D. Crawford Jr. in person on November

6, 1963: "Brief description of activity or material: NO INFO LOCATED RE LEE HARVEY

OSWALD - Gobernacion. File Where Original is Located 134-325A Remarks NO CC

negative info. 1-105-3702 L H OSWALD (PECK)." FBI 1053702-10;

NARA 124-10230-10425

Joe Backes wrote regarding Document # 124-10230-10425 [that it] is a one page document, open in full. Someone asked for information on Lee Harvey Oswald and was told that there wasn't any. I do not know when the request was made or

by whom. I believe the request for information is made while Oswald is in Mexico.

FBI agents named PECK

C.B. PECK [Example URL below]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=61083&relPageId=2

JAMES ROYCE PECK

There are 17 hits at NARA re Last name PECK; 16 reference the FBI SA's C.B. Peck and James Royce Peck

the other is Frances Peck

See

http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/10001/jfksnew.txt

C.B. Peck is the agent associated with MEX-118, I am not 100% sure, but I am almost certain

his full name is/was

Charles B Peck.

Search NARA under last name Peck and I believe it will corroborate my information.

As for Matthew Crawford, there is another document re him which

is "informative"

CIA

RECORD NUMBER : 104-10215-10024

RECORDS SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : MEXICO CITY

TO : DIRECTOR

TITLE : GESTETNER ELICITED FOLLOWING FROM ODENVY MATT CRAWFORD

WHO ASKED THAT THIS INFO NOT BE RELAYED KUBARK HQS.

DATE : 05/25/1963

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : JFK ASSASSINATION; PBPRIME; REDWOOD

CLASSIFICATION :

RESTRICTIONS : 1A

CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/17/2004

COMMENTS : JFK64-50 : F4 : 20040311-1057091 :

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  • 2 months later...

Bill,

The editor writes in his bio that he is an MD, but he doesn't want to read details, and he calls me a "cold man", because I earlier questioned the delay between JFK's Fort Worth breakfast speech and the 11:20 am AF-1 take-off for the unnecessary flight to Love field. I had shared the observation with him that they had put the president through the discomfort of boarding and then unboarding a twenty minute flight that put the president in a locale more distant to travel by automobile to the scheduled Trade Mart lunch, than if the president had been driven directly there from Fort Worth. This is a guy who has done more than 20,000 edits to articles that are served up, most of the time, in the top five google search results. No need to worry that the internets and the google will influence the public to become so well informed that they become wealthy in great numbers and unleash massive inflation, is there?

Hi Tom,

Yes, the ten minute flight from the Fort Worth SAC base to Love Field was unnecessary but was arranged by a number of coincidences - or so they call them.

JFK was going to drive from Ft. Worth to Dallas to get an honorary degree from Texas Christian University, and the Womens Building near the State Fairground (I think - I'm sure a Dallasite will correct me if I'm wrong), was to be the site of the luncheon, and that's the way it was when JFK's chief advance man Jerry Bruno left Dallas.

Once he was gone however, TCU held a meeting and decided they didn't want to give JFK an honorary degree after all, and that cancelation left open the time for a motorcade, that JFK and the White House wanted, but John Connally didn't. But Connally wanted the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, even though it was smaller and had many more security concerns. In order to have a motorcade through downtown Dallas they wanted to begin at Love Field and end at the Trade Mart, which would have made the route through Dealey Plaza necessary.

As far as I can tell the people who engineered the Trade Mart site and motorcade route were John Connally, Jack Peuterbach of the Democratic Natonal Committee (and Dept. of Agriculture), Sam Bloom of the Chamber of Commerce and the Secret Service.

Even after the cancellation of the TCU event, they still could have drove the short distance from Ft. Worth to Dallas and did their downtown tour quicker than they could flying there.

I don't know if getting the truth up on Wiki is a significant battle, won or lost.

BK

Following up on yesterdays developments, I discovered that the Dec. 2, 1963 DeBrueys document referenced is CD 75, which is a rather interesting document in its own right. Strangely, in the index at the end, Hosty's name does not come up, which, interpreting my last post, might not be the dead end, that one might feel it to be, [remember Hoch's allegation that Hosty's name had been ommitted from the "threatening Oswald note."

What I did next was attempt to locate a section of CD 75 that contained a rather significant passage, it turns out I chose Sam "Monk" Zelden, hopefully no explanation of my logic is needed.....what happened next was rather unique.

A Few years ago I had been exchanging information with Douglas Valentine, who is a rather significant researcher, if your taste lies in Federal Bureau of Narcotics information, arguably, ommitted from the Warren Report and MKULTRA, he had told me about the Shaw/Allen FOIA documents.....

It just happened that my hit for searching Sam Monk Zelden led me to a part of the Mary Ferrell site I knew existed, but had never looked at, [aside: the MFF website can be argued to be sort of like getting lost in a library]

The end result of my endeavors is listed below.....

FBI Files - Shaw/Allen FOIA Cases

These FBI records were released in response to Freedom of Information Act suits filed by Gary Shaw and Mark Allen in the early 1980s. They pre-date the Assassination Records Review Board, and thus do not feature RIF header pages, and contain redactions which in most cases will have been removed in the current versions of the documents available at the National Archives.

1. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 1

2. David William Ferrie - New Orleans Field Office, Part 2

3. Dean Adams Andrews - INS Referrals

4. Dean Adams Andrews - See References

5. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 1

6. Dean Adams Andrews, Part 2

7. Silvia Duran

http://www.maryferre...o?docSetId=1897

I probably shouldn't say this, but if the Hosty Reports of 12/4-5/63 are not in these files, I would really be surprised. Just don't quote me on that.

Robert

Thanks to Bill, Tom Scully, and Jim Root for all that has been acomplished, needless to say this is not exactly an unimportant part of the case.

A.J. Weberman wrote up a significant analysis on information pertaining to the issue of documents floating back and forth

between the FBI and CIA, in the time period in question, early November 1963.

See below

On Thursday, November 7, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover sent S.A. Milton Kaack's October 31,

1963, New Orleans FBI report on OSWALD to the CIA. [CIA DBA-55715] J. Edgar

Hoover hadn't sent the CIA anything on OSWALD since the interview in August 1962

conducted by S.A. John Fain, which had been sent in September 1962. These reports

were shopped by the Records Integration Unit and CI/SIG had a look at them. CI/SIG's

interest in OSWALD was understandable in 1963: it knew of Oswald's visit to the Soviet

Embassy, Mexico City and contact with the KGB.

On Friday, November 8, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover sent a report dated September 24,

1963, on OSWALD, to Richard Helms. The CIA received it on Tuesday, November 12,

1963. This was a New Orleans FBI Letter Head Memorandum on OSWALD'S Fair Play

for Cuba Committee activities. On November 8, 1963 the FBI received a report from

MEX-118. The report was received by Matthew D. Crawford Jr. in person on November

6, 1963: "Brief description of activity or material: NO INFO LOCATED RE LEE HARVEY

OSWALD - Gobernacion. File Where Original is Located 134-325A Remarks NO CC

negative info. 1-105-3702 L H OSWALD (PECK)." FBI 1053702-10;

NARA 124-10230-10425

Joe Backes wrote regarding Document # 124-10230-10425 [that it] is a one page document, open in full. Someone asked for information on Lee Harvey Oswald and was told that there wasn't any. I do not know when the request was made or

by whom. I believe the request for information is made while Oswald is in Mexico.

FBI agents named PECK

C.B. PECK [Example URL below]

http://www.maryferre...083&relPageId=2

JAMES ROYCE PECK

There are 17 hits at NARA re Last name PECK; 16 reference the FBI SA's C.B. Peck and James Royce Peck

the other is Frances Peck

See

http://www.nara.gov/...001/jfksnew.txt

C.B. Peck is the agent associated with MEX-118, I am not 100% sure, but I am almost certain

his full name is/was

Charles B Peck.

Search NARA under last name Peck and I believe it will corroborate my information.

As for Matthew Crawford, there is another document re him which

is "informative"

CIA

RECORD NUMBER : 104-10215-10024

RECORDS SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : MEXICO CITY

TO : DIRECTOR

TITLE : GESTETNER ELICITED FOLLOWING FROM ODENVY MATT CRAWFORD

WHO ASKED THAT THIS INFO NOT BE RELAYED KUBARK HQS.

DATE : 05/25/1963

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : JFK ASSASSINATION; PBPRIME; REDWOOD

CLASSIFICATION :

RESTRICTIONS : 1A

CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/17/2004

COMMENTS : JFK64-50 : F4 : 20040311-1057091 :

November 22, 1963

Out of the vast chronology of events in Dallas on November 22, 1963, outside of the President’s assassination itself, one would be hard pressed to find anything more compelling in the realm of intelligence agent activities, than the morning meeting between the FBI’s James Hosty and ATF agent’s Edward Coyle and Frank Ellsworth.

While the meeting is cited in Warren Commission documents as having ended at 11:45 A.M., some three-quarters of an hour before the assassination not a great deal is known about the meeting itself. Such as what was being discussed and was the account given of this meeting actually as it is described by the persons in attendance. The Warren Commission mention the meeting in 4 WH 461, See

page 257, Deep Politics and The Death of JFK - Scott, P.D. - Univ. of California Press - 1993

In that document, Hosty states that after a morning meeting with J. Gordon Shanklin and the discovery of the Wanted For Treason leaflets. Hosty mentions that he gave the information regarding the leaflets to “an Agent Warner of the Secret Service”.........”I then left the office and joined an Army Intelligence agent and a member of the Alcohol Tax Unit of the Treasury Department. We had a conference concerning a case not related to Lee Harvey Oswald. At 11:45 the Army Intelligence agent and myself left and walked over to Main Street....I was now on my lunch hour.”

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Robert, thanks for all the information you are discovering and sharing. Since I consider myself a student of the Kennedy Assassination--rather than an "expert" with books to sell and theories to defend--I find your information [and the information shared by Jim Root] to be quite educational, as far as the circumstances around the assassination that many folks have not the curiosity to explore. Thanks for your work, and let it be known that your efforts do not go unappreciated.

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I'd like to echo Mark's statement and I too appreciate both Jim and Robert for all the leg work that they are doing.

Just to make one thing clear, Ed Coyle is the Army Intelligence agent and not a ATF agent.

In addition, I recently came across this early affidavit from Michael Paine in which he says

Michael Paine Affidavit – “I heard that the President was shot from the Texas School Book Depository. I knew that Lee Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him and wondered if he might have shot the President, and wondered if I should call the FBI. I thought it unlikely that he shot the President, and that the F.B.I. was fully aware of his presence there….”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=282,

Who else in the FBI could the Paines - either Ruth or Micahel, have told about LHO working at TSB?

BK

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I'd like to echo Mark's statement and I too appreciate both Jim and Robert for all the leg work that they are doing.

Just to make one thing clear, Ed Coyle is the Army Intelligence agent and not a ATF agent.

In addition, I recently came across this early affidavit from Michael Paine in which he says

Michael Paine Affidavit – "I heard that the President was shot from the Texas School Book Depository. I knew that Lee Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him and wondered if he might have shot the President, and wondered if I should call the FBI. I thought it unlikely that he shot the President, and that the F.B.I. was fully aware of his presence there…."

http://www.maryferre...0&relPageId=282,

Who else in the FBI could the Paines - either Ruth or Micahel, have told about LHO working at TSB?

BK

Well, Mark, Bill, I really appreciate the thanks. You would be surprised how many researchers, I have been in touch with through the years, that I expressed

similar sentiments, who would tell me, that it had really picked them up, or they had felt discouraged by so many negative reactions to what they had published

or written, it works both ways.

I wish I knew some other people on the forum better, that have been here a long time, but you can't expect to be liked by everybody.

Regarding the Paine's and the FBI, I do not believe it is a coincidence, that whenever there is a "Oswald Did It," network expose

Beyond Conspiracy, ad nauseum, Ruth [i was glad he (Oswald) was dead - Redbook July 1964] and Michael trot out like some

types of Moses' figure from Mount Sinai and repeat their schtick, people who don't know much about the assassination get confused about the discordia element; it is not at all confusing to me.

Truth about controversial subjects in history, are often political in nature. And it is a fact that President Kennedy had the misfortune to be, in my words, President at the wrong time. Mary Queen of Scots was historically tarred and feathered, by primarily the British for almost three centuries before the forgery of her letters by Lord Francis Walsingham and his privy council became common knowledge in how they conspired and succeeded in linking her to the Babington Plot.

Politics is about power. It is about the power of the state. It is about the power of the state as applied to individuals, the society

in which they live and the economy in which they work. Most critically, our responsibility in this parliament is how that power is used: whether it is used for the benefit of the few or the many. - Kevin Rudd

Although what Kevin Rudd said about politics, was written in reference to Australian politics, I would submit it is

equally applicable to America, and the issues raised will go a long way in determining whether the 21st century

is a fulfillment of America's ideal as the city shining on a hill, or another great civilization that was destroyed

by its failure to learn, that the rise and fall of many great nations has a commonality of historical repetition that

seems to be forgotten by each of its successors. Perhaps you could call it the Fourth Turning.

Edited by Robert Howard
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I'd like to echo Mark's statement and I too appreciate both Jim and Robert for all the leg work that they are doing.

Just to make one thing clear, Ed Coyle is the Army Intelligence agent and not a ATF agent.

In addition, I recently came across this early affidavit from Michael Paine in which he says

Michael Paine Affidavit – “I heard that the President was shot from the Texas School Book Depository. I knew that Lee Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him and wondered if he might have shot the President, and wondered if I should call the FBI. I thought it unlikely that he shot the President, and that the F.B.I. was fully aware of his presence there….”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=282,

Who else in the FBI could the Paines - either Ruth or Micahel, have told about LHO working at TSB?

BK

William

If Michael Paine was involved in the assassination, why, in heavens name, would he let on that he knew that the FBI was aware of where Oswald was working. The Warren Commission itself seems to have kept that information (Hosty's third note)out of the record.

Jim Root

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I'd like to echo Mark's statement and I too appreciate both Jim and Robert for all the leg work that they are doing.

Just to make one thing clear, Ed Coyle is the Army Intelligence agent and not a ATF agent.

In addition, I recently came across this early affidavit from Michael Paine in which he says

Michael Paine Affidavit – "I heard that the President was shot from the Texas School Book Depository. I knew that Lee Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him and wondered if he might have shot the President, and wondered if I should call the FBI. I thought it unlikely that he shot the President, and that the F.B.I. was fully aware of his presence there…."

http://www.maryferre...0&relPageId=282,

Who else in the FBI could the Paines - either Ruth or Micahel, have told about LHO working at TSB?

BK

William

If Michael Paine was involved in the assassination, why, in heavens name, would he let on that he knew that the FBI was aware of where Oswald was working. The Warren Commission itself seems to have kept that information (Hosty's third note)out of the record.

Jim Root

Hi Jim,

I don't know that Michael Paine was involved in the assassination.

He was discussing political assassination with a co-worker at the Bell cafeteria at the time of the assassination, so that must be ESP or something.

I don't know why he did the things he did, or said the things he said, but that affidavit was written early on, probably the day of the murder, and he most certainly says that he knew "the FBI was fully aware of his presence there."

How he knew the FBI were aware, and how the FBI became aware, I don't know, other than to speculate that Ruth told him she told Hosty.

It appears that Hosty did know Oswald worked at TSBD, but was unconcerned because it was not a defense contractor or a job with security implications, other than the fact the President would pass by there in the motorcade.

BK

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I'd like to echo Mark's statement and I too appreciate both Jim and Robert for all the leg work that they are doing.

Just to make one thing clear, Ed Coyle is the Army Intelligence agent and not a ATF agent.

In addition, I recently came across this early affidavit from Michael Paine in which he says

Michael Paine Affidavit – "I heard that the President was shot from the Texas School Book Depository. I knew that Lee Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him and wondered if he might have shot the President, and wondered if I should call the FBI. I thought it unlikely that he shot the President, and that the F.B.I. was fully aware of his presence there…."

http://www.maryferre...0&relPageId=282,

Who else in the FBI could the Paines - either Ruth or Micahel, have told about LHO working at TSB?

BK

William

If Michael Paine was involved in the assassination, why, in heavens name, would he let on that he knew that the FBI was aware of where Oswald was working. The Warren Commission itself seems to have kept that information (Hosty's third note)out of the record.

Jim Root

Hi Jim,

I don't know that Michael Paine was involved in the assassination.

He was discussing political assassination with a co-worker at the Bell cafeteria at the time of the assassination, so that must be ESP or something.

I don't know why he did the things he did, or said the things he said, but that affidavit was written early on, probably the day of the murder, and he most certainly says that he knew "the FBI was fully aware of his presence there."

How he knew the FBI were aware, and how the FBI became aware, I don't know, other than to speculate that Ruth told him she told Hosty.

It appears that Hosty did know Oswald worked at TSBD, but was unconcerned because it was not a defense contractor or a job with security implications, other than the fact the President would pass by there in the motorcade.

BK

In baseball parlance, [telephone deposition January 1976] Howard Gilbert to Carver Gayton to James Hosty.

This document is rife with information, unfortunately, I do not have the time to transcribe the entire 28 odd page

document; suffice to say, Gilbert, was part of the investigation in some capacity, which becomes apparent

as one reads further.

Besides getting a fairly interesting [understatement?] amount of information regarding Oswald and Hosty,

Howard Gilbert was privy to some of the inner workings in the HSCA, particularly Carver Gayton, who, at

the time Howard Gilbert was in contact with him, Gayton was an administrator at the Univ. of Washington.

See

http://www.nara.gov/...496/jfksnew.txt

Other aspects Elmer Moore, MLK assassination, Oswald meeting with subversive, finding the money.....

Gilbert also indicates that Hosty went to "Oswald's apartment," and left a note. The interviewer refers to

this apartment as being "in Irving." Which, if taken literally, would be "off the charts," as some might say,

but before getting too excited, that part of the conversation starts with a reference to

"a suburb in Dallas," personally, I believe the apartment being referenced is the boarding house at

1026 N. Beckley, and Gilbert is not familiar with Dallas suburbs, but obviously everyone is left

to draw their own conclusions.

See

http://www.maryferre...83&relPageId=13

G: Allright, would you go back in the conversation to the point that Gayton started talking about the Oswald's

and Hosty.

JG: Right, OK, he brought up the — he says, by the way, he says,

I said to him, I said, there's some speculation, uh words to this effect, and, I mean there is some speculation

that Oswald was connected with the government, at some point.

He says — oh he was. I say's, oh, you know that for a fact? He says, oh yeah. Hosty told me that he was,

ah, what he was was a security, ah, a potential security informant.

G: Now, did he say that Hosty used the term potential security informant?

JG: I — yeah, that was the first thing that he said.

G: Ok.

JG: And he said that, ah, the problem with Oswald was that he wasn't doing any informing.

G: You mean he wasn't turning in sufficient information.

JG: He wasn't doing anything apparently.

G: Allright.

JG: He said that Hosty was irritated, because he was getting pressure to find out why

Oswald wasn't giving information.

G: Ok.

JG: And, ah, that he was running around trying to pressure Oswald into talking with him about it

at some length, but. . . .

G: Did he, that'd be Gayton, indicate what type of information Oswald was supposed to be giving to the FBI?

JG: No.

G: Did he indicate at that time, whether or not Oswald was to be paid for the information. Or was he

receiving money at that time from the FBI?

JG: I'm trying to get it straight. I think that -- that he told me that Oswald was being paid. He was

being given a certain amount of money, but that Oswald wasn't,

1) I can remember distinctly, Oswald wasn't showing up at his drops.

He wasn't leaving the kind of information at these drops, that he was supposed to, and that he just simply

wasn't communicating with the Bureau.

G: All right.

G: Was there anything in the conversation relating to whether or not Oswald was reporting information

about potential assassination of the President?

JG: No.

G: OK. What else was said about Oswald and Hosty.

JG: Well, apparentley, ah, the reason that Hosty had talked with Gayton was the fact that Gayton had bailed

him out of a ticklish situation in Kansas City. (cough)

G: They were both agent. FBI agents there together there, werent they?

JG: Right.

G: Ok.

JG: Apparently Hosty had blown some sort of a cover for some sort of surveillance, and ah, Hosty was

being in a punishment situation, in Kansas City, to begin with, and I guess more black marks had been

a problem. And apparently Gayton had covered up some indiscretion at a stakeout of some sort.

I don't really remember the details on it . Excuse me. (Apparently someone called to him) Yes. (Voices)

HSCA Numbered Files

180-10086-10438

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=49383

On the RIF page, there is the designation 3 of 3;

If this is the third part of Gilbert's deposition, or anything similar, I would darn sure

try to get my hands on it.

Edited by Robert Howard
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