Oswald's behavior when shot

[John Dolva]

Some thoughts on Ruby's shooting of Oswald.. We agree that Ruby was put in a position to kill LHO. Ruby MUST be successful the first time, there would be no second opportunity. Could the bullet that Ruby used have been a poisonous type? All Ruby would have to do was to make sure that bullet entered Oswald's body and not worry if he hits vital organs.

I seem to remember that LHO was said to have had intense convulsions and muscle spasms on his way to Parkland. Head, neck, body muscle tightening are symptoms of strychnine or cyanide poisoning. Did the Parkland doctors look for the presence of toxins or did they just assume that they had the cause of death? Was the bullet recovered and preserved?

Ron has set off a topic matter that personally at least I'd never thought to enquire much about, just took the 'first live honicide seen by 20 million' as a fait accompli. I hope this searching for who or what REALLY killed Oswald bears fruit. My initial impression after Rons thought provoking post and then the various answers or thought or contributions lead me to wonder if the DPD got their cop killer after all. They weren't gonna let him go.

edit:typo

edit:add: Perhaps Tippit can be seen in a new light? By Tippit being killed, the chances of Oswald dying soon went up some. IOW indicative of some behind the scene maneuvering?

Edited May 28, 2009 by John Dolva

[Len Colby]

Is there any reason to doubt it was Ruby?

[Ron Ecker]

Is there any reason to doubt it was Ruby?

Ruby shot him, but it's safe to assume, once that bullet was fired, that the conspirators behind Ruby were not going to let Oswald out of that basement or Parkland alive, anymore than they were going to let JFK get out of Dealey Plaza or Parkland alive.

[John Bevilaqua]

Is there any reason to doubt it was Ruby?

Ruby shot him, but it's safe to assume, once that bullet was fired, that the conspirators behind Ruby were not going to let Oswald out of that basement or Parkland alive, anymore than they were going to let JFK get out of Dealey Plaza or Parkland alive.

Well Ruby tried to shoot Oswald again and the gun jammed. The extent of the injuries, from an admittedly very lucky and well placed shot

that punctured 2-3 internal organs, was so severe that Oswald was a dead man no matter what anyone did to him. The ONLY conspirator

intent on killing Oswald in the Dallas garage that day was Ruby and the poor guy who pumped his chest or whatever, actually thought

he was helping him. Do you think that guy was either a conspirator or well trained in resuscitation or emergency room techniques?

Hardly. Propagating that level of conspiracy into the Dallas garage is a little over the top. Well maybe a lot over the top. Ruby got into

the press conference on sight and he got into the basement garage without being confronted either because he was well known to all.

[Lee Forman]

Didn't Georgi Visko sell wheat?

Something like that.

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER : 104-10528-10248

RECORDS SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : MEXICO CITY

TO : DIRECTOR

TITLE : CABLE: OFFER OF MEXICAN BUSINESSMAN TO SELL WHEAT TO

THE SOVIET UNION

DATE : 11/06/1963

PAGES : 3

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : VISKO

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/07/1999

COMMENTS : JFK64-47 : F10 : 1999.07.07.11:39:02:560128 :

[John Dolva]

While ordinary police may not be experts in saving lives, i suspect many know various ways of taking them. ''Vital'' organs may have been struck for sure, but certainly saveable. It would have been interesting being in the car where a pained Oswald had to endure the ride. I'd probably convulse in such a situation sans any poisons, and a lack of concern for my life would contribute further to blood loss in such circumstances. This matter is not dead by any means.

[John Bevilaqua]

Didn't Georgi Visko sell wheat?

Something like that.

AGENCY : CIA

RECORD NUMBER : 104-10528-10248

RECORDS SERIES : JFK

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CIA

FROM : MEXICO CITY

TO : DIRECTOR

TITLE : CABLE: OFFER OF MEXICAN BUSINESSMAN TO SELL WHEAT TO

THE SOVIET UNION

DATE : 11/06/1963

PAGES : 3

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : VISKO

CLASSIFICATION : SECRET

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/07/1999

COMMENTS : JFK64-47 : F10 : 1999.07.07.11:39:02:560128 :

Yes he did, but the name does not ring a bell in my dome. Who was he and how was he connected?

What do you think about all the El Paso, Texas connections Vonsiatsky and his Nazi agents had during World War II?

They used El Paso to breach the border into Mexico with stolen photos, microfilm and information which they took

into Mexico. Then they hired fishing boats on the West Coast to go out into the ocean to meet German U-Boats

offshore where they delivered the information. I think it was Gerhard Kunze or Kunle who was tried in absentia

on The Great Conspiracy Trial of 1941 then ran away into Mexico where he was caught and extradited to serve

his time. They should have electrocuted Vonsiatsky and all his saboteurs like Wozniak "The Firebug". Then they

could not wreak havoc and revenge on America.

Did you see where the Wickliffe "Preston" Draper cousin, Andrew Preston started the Boston Fruit Company in

1899 which later became United Fruit where the Dulles brothers and John M. Cabot had GIANT stock holdings

in United Fruit? I have ordered "The Banana Wars" and "The Banana Men" from abebooks.com I just had no

idea that these Great White Hope "banana" robber barons treated these people like pre-Civil War slaves and

killed them by the thousands while building railroads, housing and infrastructure in Latin America. But their

relatives had been slaveowners and even Draper treated his client's mill workers like indentured servants, so

they just had it in their blood. And the amount of investment in overseas cargo vessels, and in railroad tracks

and locomotives and bridges in both Guatamala, Nicaragua and Costa Rica as well as from New Orleans to

points North was just staggering. And bananas, pineapples and vegetables were just so cheap when harvested

by "slave laborers" on really cheap land that the profits were staggering. There are at least 10 books on United

Fruit in the last 15 years and while previewing them it just blows me away about what a giant industry it was.

And to think that the Dulles brothers and the Cabots and the Forbes would invoke the entire might of the U.S.

Army and the Marines and the CIA just to protect or to regain their properties is just incomprehensible to me.

Why hasn't anyone else ever written about these aspects of the Bay of Pigs? Fuh-getta-bout all that stuff on

the Mobsters losing hotels, gambling and prostitution, it was these Great White Hope banana dudes who lost all

their slave plantations, and their slaves as well as their railroads, their locomotives, their farming equipment

and their entire investments.

If Lincoln died over "cotton wars" inspired by the Draper loom crowd and the Mississippi plantation owners,

then Kennedy died over "banana wars" courtesy of the Dulles brothers, the Cabots, the Forbes, the Drapers

and the Prestons? What ignominy! These banana wars were totally were inspired by the Preston crowd which

is the other half of the Drapers. His mother was a Kentucky Preston I believe and fought on the Confederate

side of course.

So Jackie Kennedy was only half right. JFK died over Civil Rights because they pulled the trigger and set the stage but

the real money and the inspiration came from the Mississippi "cotton" and Massachusettsand "textiles" crowd courtesy

of Wickliffe Draper and the New England or Park Avenue Patriot "banana" crowds like John M. Cabot who used to be the

president of United Fruit, and the heirs and relatives of Andrew Preston from Boston.

Keep your "cotton pickin" and "textile weaving" hands off our slaves and off our plantations said the Southerners to Lincoln.

Keep your "cotton pickin" and "textile weaving" hands off our Civil Rights and Voting Rights issues said the Southerners to Kennedy.

Keep your "banana peeling" and "textile tariff" hands off our slaves and off our banana plantations said the Northeners to Kennedy.

United Fruit was behind the Arbenz Guatamala coup and they had giant holdings in Castro's Cuba which they lost.

And Guy Bannister and Maurice B. Gatlin started the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean in the SAME building

as United Fruit headquarters in New Orleans.

[Lee Forman]

Yes he did, but the name does not ring a bell in my dome. Who was he and how was he connected?

well, it is believed that this is Boy Georgi right here.

[Greg Parker]

He fell out of sight right off. How's it known he was unconcious?

You're right. I guess I've just always assumed he was unconscious from the way he looked, eyes closed, going down. He may well have been conscious, in which case it would sure be nice to know what he said, since the wound would not prevent him from talking.

In trying to see Oswald right after he was shot, I looked again at the TV footage of the shooting. I am struck more than ever how it looks staged, literally stagy like a scene from one of those old live TV dramatic shows like Studio One. They come walking out, careful to have no one in front of Oswald blocking the view or a bullet,

Ron, funny this is, there was supposed to be. The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files.

and Leavelle looks like a very bad actor, as if stiffly concentrating on behaving and taking the exact number of steps as called for by the director. But I guess it's all just my imagination.

Well, I guess we have a shared imagination, because that was my thought the very first I viewed the footage.

Parenthetically, Jack White recently mentioned on this forum that Jim Leavelle was wearing a bulletproof vest. Jack, is there a source for that?

[John Bevilaqua]

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

John, point well made with that quote. The gut instinct first response right after the JFK Assassination was to blame the far right

especially The John Birch Society. Then the full bore barrage of PsyWar intelligence came flying from Oliver, Smith, Morris, Corso, Willoughby,

and several others from the far right, who were actually responsible for killing JFK, in order to defend themselves and deflect any suspicion

from their friends while trying to pin it on either Cuban or Russian Communists or on the KGB infiltration of the CIA or on the CIA itself.

Now maybe this happened simultaneously or perhaps the deflection occurred first followed by the gut instinct first responses. Does

anyone remember how it all went down or can it be recreated from the historical written records? Needless to say, all of these versions

still have living proponents repeating the first response pablum from Oliver, Smith, Morris, Corso, Willoughby probably written by that

Edmund Bernay character from the gitgo.

[Ron Ecker]

The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files

So maybe it was Will Fritz who was supposed to be in front. But notice how far in front he got. Maybe he's looking for the cop who is supposed to be in front with him.

[John Dolva]

The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files

So maybe it was Will Fritz who was supposed to be in front. But notice how far in front he got. Maybe he's looking for the cop who is supposed to be in front with him.

Good points John, thank you.

________

re oswald, i hate do do this but i cant help mentioning Harry D. Holmes at this point.

He'd gone to church that morning, as usual.

Then got to the church with his wife.

Suddenly decides he might be of assistance down in the DPD.

Leaves his wife at church and goes there.

Fritz waves him over and quietly asks him whether he would like to sit in on the last interview.

So this postal inspector gets, at the supposed end of the interview. a chance to fill an hour or so with irrelevancies until a knock on the door brings it to a close

which just so happens to coincide with the time that Ruby was approaching.

Strange set of circumstances?

[Denis Pointing]

Just a thought, as Ron pointed out in post #1 a belly shot is very unreliable, if Ruby was the "mafia hitman" many belive him to be, wouldn't he have shot Oswald in the head?

[David Andrews]

Just a thought, as Ron pointed out in post #1 a belly shot is very unreliable, if Ruby was the "mafia hitman" many belive him to be, wouldn't he have shot Oswald in the head?

Even at close-quarters, a head shot is hard to make due to pistol recoil - plus in a crowd, it could miss and hit another head. Ruby also may not have fired a pistol to actually try to hit a person in years. We saw that, even with all the collusion available, Ruby could not get off more than one shot before being grabbed. It was easier to palm the gun until Oswald passed, then move in with the gun still held close to Ruby's torso, like a quarterback carrying a football.

Edited May 30, 2009 by David Andrews

[Denis Pointing]

Just a thought, as Ron pointed out in post #1 a belly shot is very unreliable, if Ruby was the "mafia hitman" many belive him to be, wouldn't he have shot Oswald in the head?

Even at close-quarters, a head shot is hard to make due to pistol recoil - plus in a crowd, it could miss and hit another head. Ruby also may not have fired a pistol to actually try to hit a person in years. We saw that, even with all the collusion available, Ruby could not get off more than one shot before being grabbed. It was easier to palm the gun until Oswald passed, then move in with the gun still held close to Ruby's torso, like a quarterback carrying a football.

Is it really any harder David, if the gun was held directly at someones head? But even if correct Ruby could have shot Oswald in the heart or at least the chest. The point is that Ruby didn't shoot like a hitman or like someone being directed on how to carry out a "hit" from the mafia. Just a stray thought really.