Greg Parker Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Depends upon the severity of the wound received...."The bullet has shattered the top of the spleen, damaged the area around the pancreas, tore off the top of the right kidney and the right lobe of the right liver before lodging in the right lateral body wall." The bullet also injured Oswald's stomach. ...and the care provided afterwards... Mr. SORRELS. No; a public elevator--and got down to the basement floor, and I headed right into the jailer's office. And at that time Oswald was laying on the floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration. Mr. HUBERT. By mechanical means? Mr. SORRELS. No; by hand. I recall slicing [sic] his stomach was uncovered, his shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him artificial respiration by his hands. Somewhere, someone credits Sorrels with being amazed by this [Palamara has a reference using this expression], but I cannot discover an original reference... Sorrels, to his amazement, saw a plainclothes man kneeling between Oswald's thighs, administering aftificial respiration. Sorrels did not recognize the man; Curry later would merely identify him as "a detective." From Stephens' report: "I did see the men carry the prisoner inside the jail office... I saw the bullet hole on the left side of the prisoner as he was laying on the floor. He appeared to be conscious at the time and a city doctor was called and was working on him at the time the ambulance arrived..." Providing artificial respiration to a gut shot victim, according to Manchester someplace, is like applying a bellows to a fire. Sounds logical. If you consider this event in 2009, someone receiving a similar gut shot wound, with a response by a trained paramedic of artificial respiration, and death ensuing, I can't see losing the lawsuit - unless it was with the ghost of Henry Wade presiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files So maybe it was Will Fritz who was supposed to be in front. But notice how far in front he got. Maybe he's looking for the cop who is supposed to be in front with him. Ron, I found the report and you are right. It was Fritz. From Fritz' report on the transfer: "I instructed James R Leavelle to handcuff his left hand to the prisoner's right hand. I instructed LC Graves to walk his left and DL Montgomery directly behind him, and I told them I would walk in front of the prisoner out of the door to the car... as I reached for the car door and told the officer to put him in the car, I heard a shot" The whole point should have been to escort him in tight, especially since Fritz acknowledges at least one threat on Oswald in this same report. And what's this crock about reaching for the car door and telling the officer to put him in when as you point out, Oswald was way behind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files So maybe it was Will Fritz who was supposed to be in front. But notice how far in front he got. Maybe he's looking for the cop who is supposed to be in front with him. Ron, I found the report and you are right. It was Fritz. From Fritz' report on the transfer: "I instructed James R Leavelle to handcuff his left hand to the prisoner's right hand. I instructed LC Graves to walk his left and DL Montgomery directly behind him, and I told them I would walk in front of the prisoner out of the door to the car... as I reached for the car door and told the officer to put him in the car, I heard a shot" The whole point should have been to escort him in tight, especially since Fritz acknowledges at least one threat on Oswald in this same report. And what's this crock about reaching for the car door and telling the officer to put him in when as you point out, Oswald was way behind? Yea, that's pretty wild. Check this out, but don't look at Oswald's behavior, look at Fritz. The case is cinched all right. FYI http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKfritz.htm http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/findi...itz-papers.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The plan for his escort out called for cops to the side, to the back, and to the FRONT. The details on this are buried in the DPD files So maybe it was Will Fritz who was supposed to be in front. But notice how far in front he got. Maybe he's looking for the cop who is supposed to be in front with him. Ron, I found the report and you are right. It was Fritz. From Fritz' report on the transfer: "I instructed James R Leavelle to handcuff his left hand to the prisoner's right hand. I instructed LC Graves to walk his left and DL Montgomery directly behind him, and I told them I would walk in front of the prisoner out of the door to the car... as I reached for the car door and told the officer to put him in the car, I heard a shot" The whole point should have been to escort him in tight, especially since Fritz acknowledges at least one threat on Oswald in this same report. And what's this crock about reaching for the car door and telling the officer to put him in when as you point out, Oswald was way behind? Yea, that's pretty wild. Check this out, but don't look at Oswald's behavior, look at Fritz. The case is cinched all right. FYI http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKfritz.htm http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/findi...itz-papers.html Thanks Bill, hadn't seen that clip before. Which was it? an involuntary hand movement a signal to his men to bring Oswald to the car a signal to Ruby Not sure. That hand kind of hangs limp as he's walking like he has palsy - in fact, if he suffered that, it could also explain the hand movement as involuntary. But given Leavelle's ham acting, and his own apparent casual response to the gun shot... one has to at least consider a signal to Ruby as being just as plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Just a thought, as Ron pointed out in post #1 a belly shot is very unreliable, if Ruby was the "mafia hitman" many belive him to be, wouldn't he have shot Oswald in the head? Even at close-quarters, a head shot is hard to make due to pistol recoil - plus in a crowd, it could miss and hit another head. Ruby also may not have fired a pistol to actually try to hit a person in years. We saw that, even with all the collusion available, Ruby could not get off more than one shot before being grabbed. It was easier to palm the gun until Oswald passed, then move in with the gun still held close to Ruby's torso, like a quarterback carrying a football. Is it really any harder David, if the gun was held directly at someones head? But even if correct Ruby could have shot Oswald in the heart or at least the chest. The point is that Ruby didn't shoot like a hitman or like someone being directed on how to carry out a "hit" from the mafia. Just a stray thought really. Ruby fully looks like a guy who knows his best chance to shoot a man that he can perhaps hit only once in a pressing crowd. Pistol shots to the head usually occur under more private circumstances. (Giancana.) Edited May 31, 2009 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) The whole point should have been to escort him in tight, especially since Fritz acknowledges at least one threat on Oswald in this same report. For example: I'm sure such tight escort has been standard security procedure in law enforcement since long before 1963. Are we supposed to believe that Will Fritz didn't know what it meant to be "in front," in conjunction with the ones close on each side? On the tape Fritz walks out into the basement like he's lost, well ahead of his charge and never looking back at him. Just waiting to hear the shot. Fritz was a worse actor than Leavelle. Or maybe not. Fritz looks kind of lost in every photo I've seen of him. But that may have been a deceptive Columbo-type persona that he developed over the years as a homicide detective. Fool the suspect into thinking you're an idiot. You don't get to the position Fritz was in by being a bozo. Edit: The photo I posted (of McVeigh under escort) doesn't show up here on my computer. I've tried it using two different servers. It has happened before, must be some firewall problem, I have no idea. Edited May 31, 2009 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Maybe, Ron. You could try checking the images 'hidden' data. Perhaps some sort of block? One way to try is to get a copy of MWsnap for example and open the image in a viewer and snap it sans any watermarking or whatever and try posting that? _______ There seems to me to be a practice walk first? Watch the tall guy in the left corner of the pasement. Most stand still, he seems to be checking things out pretty alertly. In an earler topic I found he, after Ruby was down, seems to zig zag into the action and take something out of his right coat pocket and palm it to someone who's closer to Ruby. Its very momentary on a few frames, easily missed, Is he the one standing near Will towards the end of the youtube clip? Who is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 See if this works Ron: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 other ideas, -send me a copy -open it in something like XNview or Irfranview and snap it there -save it to a different format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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