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Man in the 6th Floor Window 12:34 pm


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The Man in the Sixth Floor Window at 12:34

WCH Vol. XXIV CE 2098 – FBI Report Jan. 10, 1964

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

LILLIAN MOONEYHAM, Deputy District Court Clerk, 95th Court, Records Building, advised that she watched the Presidential Motorcade on November 22, 1963 from the window of the court house. She, along with Mrs. ROSE CLARK and JEANNETTE E. HOOKER, observed the Presidential Motorcade proceeding down Main Street from the window of Judge J. FRANK WILSON’s courtroom, overlooking Main Street. As the motorcade passed them on Main Street, MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER ran to Judge HENRY KING’s courtroom window, which faces Houston Street, in time to see the motorcade turn west from Elm Street on Houston. Mrs. MOONEYHAM believes that BOB REID, Deputy District Court Clerk, Dallas, Texas, was in Judge KING’s courtroom watching the motorcade at the same time as was MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM heard a gunshot and observed President KENNEDY slump to the left of the seat of the car. At the time of the initial shot, Mrs. MOONEYHAM believed that a firecracker had gone off. Following the first shot, there was a slight pause and then two more shots were discharged, the second and third shots sounding closer together. Mrs. MOONEYHAM observed Mrs. KENNEDY climb up on the back of the car and her eyes were then diverted towards the left of the Presidential Motorcade on Elm Street by a bystander, a man who had fallen to the ground.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM and Mrs. CLARK left Judge KING’s courtroom and went to the office of Judge JULIEN C. HYER on the third floor of the Records Building, where they continued to observe the happenings from Juge HYER’s window. From Judge HYER’s window, Mrs. MOONEYHAM noted a number of bystanders running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 41/2 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin, that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD an observed the figure of a man standing in the sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated she could not furnish any additional identifying information regarding the figure she observed in this window.

Edited by William Kelly
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The Man in the Sixth Floor Window at 12:34

WCH Vol. XXIV CE 2098 – FBI Report Jan. 10, 1964

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

LILLIAN MOONEYHAM, Deputy District Court Clerk, 95th Court, Records Building, advised that she watched the Presidential Motorcade on November 22, 1963 from the window of the court house. She, along with Mrs. ROSE CLARK and JEANNETTE E. HOOKER, observed the Presidential Motorcade proceeding down Main Street from the window of Judge J. FRANK WILSON’s courtroom, overlooking Main Street. As the motorcade passed them on Main Street, MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER ran to Judge HENRY KING’s courtroom window, which faces Houston Street, in time to see the motorcade turn west from Elm Street on Houston. Mrs. MOONEYHAM believes that BOB REID, Deputy District Court Clerk, Dallas, Texas, was in Judge KING’s courtroom watching the motorcade at the same time as was MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM heard a gunshot and observed President KENNEDY slump to the left of the seat of the car. At the time of the initial shot, Mrs. MOONEYHAM believed that a firecracker had gone off. Following the first shot, there was a slight pause and then two more shots were discharged, the second and third shots sounding closer together. Mrs. MOONEYHAM observed Mrs. KENNEDY climb up on the back of the car and her eyes were then diverted towards the left of the Presidential Motorcade on Elm Street by a bystander, a man who had fallen to the ground.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM and Mrs. CLARK left Judge KING’s courtroom and went to the office of Judge JULIEN C. HYER on the third floor of the Records Building, where they continued to observe the happenings from Juge HYER’s window. From Judge HYER’s window, Mrs. MOONEYHAM noted a number of bystanders running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 41/2 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin, that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD an observed the figure of a man standing in the sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.

Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated she could not furnish any additional identifying information regarding the figure she observed in this window.

As far as I can determine, there are three possibilities:

1) Ala RRCarr, those who want to debunk this statement will say that you can't see the Sixth Floor window of the TSBD from Judge King's court room on the third floor of the building across the street, and Mrs. Mooneyham is just plain wrong.

2) She actually was looking at the Fifth Floor TSBD window and saw one of the three black guys who lingered around, even though they said they all split that scene within a minute.

3) Moneyham is correct in her statement, is a very good witness, being a court clerk knows something about eyewitness testimony, and everything else she said happened was substantiated, including the presence of three others who also confirmed everything she said, except they didn't look at the Sixth Floor window so they didn't see this person.

If #3 is indeed the situation, and Mooneyham was correct in her view of a man being in the Sixth Floor TSBD sniper window four to five minutes after the last shot, then:

A) This individual was definately not the accused assassin Lee Harvey Oswald, who was positively identified as being on the 2nd floor drinking a coke four to five minutes after the last shot.

B) This individual was either the real assassin, or someone who was with the real assassin at the time of the shooting or shortly thereafter and is therefore the real sniper, a culprit or co-conspirator.

Although I can't find the reference right now, I know that at least one person on the street who saw a man in the Sixth Floor TSBD window sniper's nest said that this person did not leave the window immediately but instead stuck around and took his time.

There was also a movement of boxes in the minutes after the last shot, as if the sniper moved some of the boxes around before leaving.

Since the TSBD building was not sealed off until ten minutes after the last shot, this person still could have left the sniper's nest five minutes after the last shot, and now that Dougherty was in the elevator going down (which could be heard), and Baker and Truely were on the roof, he could have walked down two flights to the fourth floor, and then taken the fourth floor elevator to the first floor and walked away.

Or, if like the accused assassin, he was an employee of the TSBD or one of the sub-contractors, he could have left the Sixth Floor to any floor and just hung out with the other employees, since only those who were missing were considered suspect.

The question is, if now Oswald, who was this person in the sniper's window four minutes after the last shot?

BK

Edited by William Kelly
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Not to pre-empt, but - how late did Bonnie Ray Williams sit in that window area with his chicken lunch before anyone else occupied that space? Was Williams really feeble-minded and freaked-out by the whole affair, as Roy Truly claimed to the WC, or was he a shill for the conspirators, managed by Truly and Byrd?

I bring it up b/c I saw "JFK" again recently, and the script has Williams eating there until 12:10 p. m. Isn't there one street-level sighting of two figures, one dark-complected, one balding, in the sixth-floor window before shots were fired?

Edited by David Andrews
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David this what Arnold Rowland told the WC

Mr. Rowland.

shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative Ford.

At what time was that?

Mr. Rowland.

At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative Ford.

Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?

Mr. Rowland.

No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative Ford.

I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. Rowland.

The west, southwest corner.

Representative Ford.

And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?

Mr. Rowland.

The east, southeast corner.

Representative Ford.

Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. Rowland.

On the same floor.

Representative Ford.

When did you notice him?

Mr. Rowland.

This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative Ford.

I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?

Mr. Rowland.

Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

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Although I can't find the reference right now, I know that at least one person on the street who saw a man in the Sixth Floor TSBD window sniper's nest said that this person did not leave the window immediately but instead stuck around and took his time.

Bill,

this is from Brennan's 11/22 affidavit: Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry.

A) This individual was definately not the accused assassin Lee Harvey Oswald, who was positively identified as being on the 2nd floor drinking a coke four to five minutes after the last shot.

Not sure who you're referring to as witness to this sighting. Baker and Truly had their encounter much much sooner than that - and it was on a floor or two above the second with someone other than Oswald. This is beyond any dispute. The myth of the lunch room encounter however is so deeply ingrained, it's tougher to remove than gum from a shoe. Thanks Gary Oldman!

Oswald was on the first floor.

Or, if like the accused assassin, he was an employee of the TSBD or one of the sub-contractors, he could have left the Sixth Floor to any floor and just hung out with the other employees, since only those who were missing were considered suspect.

The only evidence that sub-contractors were used is the response Harold Norman gave to a question in The Men On the Sixth Floor

Q: Did you help lay the new flooring?

A: No, we went up there sometimes to move stuff around for the floor construction guys. They didn't work for the School Book Depository, but if our work got slow, we would give them a hand.

Although I have some deep concerns that no one else ever mentioned any sub-contractors as far as the official records are concerned, I don't think it's entirely out of the question. The new occupants had a lot of work done to the building previously and in all likelihood used outside people on those occasions. It also makes far better business sense to bring in sub-contractors and lay off staff in areas where not enough work is available - as had been the practice of the company in previous slow periods.

I have also long been intrigued by statements made by Ray McKeown to the HSCA:

He tried to tell them early in his testimony, but was cut off and told whatever he was about to say was irrelevant:

Mr. McKEOWN - Oh, Jesus Christ, Yes. One of your good friends came to me, a gentleman by the name of Butler. He was a campaign manager for Ike Eisenhower or something. He was a big wheel with the Republicans and I am a Democrat and he told! me --I will tell you.
This was the most mysterious thing you ever heard of.

Mr. PREYER - I do not care to know the details of all of these visits because they would not be relevant to our inquiry,

Much later, he managed to explain this "mysterious thing" to a more accommodating Purdy:

Mr. McKEOWN - Yes. Well, this, gentleman came out to my place. Not Mr. Butler, somebody else. I do net recall his name.

Mr. PURDY - Was his name Porter?

Mr. McKEOWN - Yes, it damn sure was. Jack Porter.

Mr. PURDY - Please explain the story.

Mr. McKEOWN - Anyway, he told me that it was a very mysterious thing.
He told me, he says, do you have any work clothes like khakis, khaki pants and things? I said well, I can get some. What is the occasion? He said we want you to go to the top floor of the Gulf Building in Houston. We want you to get off two floors before you get to the top and walk up and dress like a working person.

I'm not saying this 1959 episode had any direct connection to the assassination. But what it shows is a plan for unknown purposes being put through a dry run. Whatever operation it was intended for in 1959, it could easily be used again in 1963.

Wear khaki... look like a worker....

Brennan...

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Edited by Greg Parker
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Greg im new to this forum, i was wondering what do you base your idea that Baker never saw Oswald on the second floor, by the way very informative post

This ties in with what i was getting at in your Altgens post, David. AFA i understand, Truly rushed ahead and came back and declared the second floor ok to baker ( so was it bypassed as aconsequence? ) , yet there are the odd references elsewhere to this floor that are, well, odd.

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Greg im new to this forum, i was wondering what do you base your idea that Baker never saw Oswald on the second floor, by the way very informative post

David,

Although it certainly has relevance to this thread, I don't want to divert too much from the question of who it actually was in that window.

The basics are that Oswald's words as recorded by some of his inquisitors are backed up by first newspaper reports quoting both police and TSBD officials as placing an Oswald-Police encounter on the first floor. Since Oswald could not have known what others would say to the media, it's the kind of corroboration that is hard to knock.

Moreover, Baker himself placed his encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor in his initial statement. The description he gave only had the very vaguest of similarities to Oswald to the extent Oswald can be ruled out as being that person since Oswald himself was sitting in plain view of Baker as his statement was being taken. Why would he not then, get the description right? Why would he not include in the statement that the person under arrest is the person he encountered?

For a more in depth analysis, see:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.assa...6394?hl=en&

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Not to pre-empt, but - how late did Bonnie Ray Williams sit in that window area with his chicken lunch before anyone else occupied that space? Was Williams really feeble-minded and freaked-out by the whole affair, as Roy Truly claimed to the WC, or was he a shill for the conspirators, managed by Truly and Byrd?

I bring it up b/c I saw "JFK" again recently, and the script has Williams eating there until 12:10 p. m. Isn't there one street-level sighting of two figures, one dark-complected, one balding, in the sixth-floor window before shots were fired?

That's really a key question, David.

Bonnie Ray testified that he'd only been upstairs a couple of minutes and, as I recall, said that he'd been up there as late as 12:20. The WC estimated his being there "as late as" maybe 12:10, but it presumed that he'd gone upstairs immediately after washing up for lunch.

In a sense, that's true, but the reality is that, by the time he'd emerged from the wash room, all of his compatriots had already eaten their lunches and gone outside. If you piece together all of their testimonies, you'll find that Bonnie Ray didn't even come out of the wash room until about 12:10. (Use your imagination.)

BRW and Junior Jarman both testified that BRW had come to the fifth floor after Jarman and Hank Norman had gotten there (Norman said he "wasn't sure" who was there first). Hank and Junior were outside in front of the building - and were seen there by Roy Truly there, along with Slim Givens, who'd left the group and walked a block east to meet up with a friend of his who ran the parking lot at Elm & Record, his departure also noticed by Truly, as was Hank and Junior's.

Hank and Junior testified that they left the front of the building when they "got word" that the motorcade was on Main Street, presumably either by hearing over a police radio, or catching the "buzz of the crowd" after someone else had heard it over the radio. That was some time between 12:22 and 12:26, probably more toward the latter time, which was the first time "Main Street" was mentioned on the parade channel (DPD2).

They walked around the back of the building via Houston Street, saw the east elevator not there, went around and rode the west elevator up to the fifth floor. This took from one to two minutes, putting them onto the fifth floor at some time after 12:25, possibly as late as 12:28. Bonnie Ray Williams was still on the sixth floor at that time.

That being true, and the movements people on the street had noticed - Rowland, Euins, et al. - likewise being valid, based on where BRW said he was sitting while eating lunch, there is no way that he could not have noticed the activity. It is likewise unlikely, given his proximity, that he woudn't have noticed the activity of even one man, even if that man was trying to be surreptitious.

It is also unlikely that anybody who was on the sixth floor would not notice Williams.

So, if Oswald was on the sixth floor and Williams was on the sixth floor, and each knew the other was there:

  • why did Oswald let him go (might Williams not have raised the alarm?);
  • why did Williams not raise the alarm; and
  • once Oswald was dead, why didn't Williams simply say that he'd seen Oswald with the gun on six?

The answers to those are that BRW didn't see Oswald on six; that someone had to have watched over him to ensure that he and his pals on five didn't raise the alarm; and that BRW still feared whoever it was that he had seen on six.

Truly characterized the behavior of all three men as being unusual in the weeks afterward, with BRW being the most "superstitious" of them. No great surprise in that, is there?

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Not to pre-empt, but - how late did Bonnie Ray Williams sit in that window area with his chicken lunch before anyone else occupied that space? Was Williams really feeble-minded and freaked-out by the whole affair, as Roy Truly claimed to the WC, or was he a shill for the conspirators, managed by Truly and Byrd?

I bring it up b/c I saw "JFK" again recently, and the script has Williams eating there until 12:10 p. m. Isn't there one street-level sighting of two figures, one dark-complected, one balding, in the sixth-floor window before shots were fired?

That's really a key question, David.

Bonnie Ray testified that he'd only been upstairs a couple of minutes and, as I recall, said that he'd been up there as late as 12:20. The WC estimated his being there "as late as" maybe 12:10, but it presumed that he'd gone upstairs immediately after washing up for lunch.

In a sense, that's true, but the reality is that, by the time he'd emerged from the wash room, all of his compatriots had already eaten their lunches and gone outside. If you piece together all of their testimonies, you'll find that Bonnie Ray didn't even come out of the wash room until about 12:10. (Use your imagination.)

BRW and Junior Jarman both testified that BRW had come to the fifth floor after Jarman and Hank Norman had gotten there (Norman said he "wasn't sure" who was there first). Hank and Junior were outside in front of the building - and were seen there by Roy Truly there, along with Slim Givens, who'd left the group and walked a block east to meet up with a friend of his who ran the parking lot at Elm & Record, his departure also noticed by Truly, as was Hank and Junior's.

Hank and Junior testified that they left the front of the building when they "got word" that the motorcade was on Main Street, presumably either by hearing over a police radio, or catching the "buzz of the crowd" after someone else had heard it over the radio. That was some time between 12:22 and 12:26, probably more toward the latter time, which was the first time "Main Street" was mentioned on the parade channel (DPD2).

They walked around the back of the building via Houston Street, saw the east elevator not there, went around and rode the west elevator up to the fifth floor. This took from one to two minutes, putting them onto the fifth floor at some time after 12:25, possibly as late as 12:28. Bonnie Ray Williams was still on the sixth floor at that time.

That being true, and the movements people on the street had noticed - Rowland, Euins, et al. - likewise being valid, based on where BRW said he was sitting while eating lunch, there is no way that he could not have noticed the activity. It is likewise unlikely, given his proximity, that he woudn't have noticed the activity of even one man, even if that man was trying to be surreptitious.

It is also unlikely that anybody who was on the sixth floor would not notice Williams.

So, if Oswald was on the sixth floor and Williams was on the sixth floor, and each knew the other was there:

  • why did Oswald let him go (might Williams not have raised the alarm?);
  • why did Williams not raise the alarm; and
  • once Oswald was dead, why didn't Williams simply say that he'd seen Oswald with the gun on six?

The answers to those are that BRW didn't see Oswald on six; that someone had to have watched over him to ensure that he and his pals on five didn't raise the alarm; and that BRW still feared whoever it was that he had seen on six.

Truly characterized the behavior of all three men as being unusual in the weeks afterward, with BRW being the most "superstitious" of them. No great surprise in that, is there?

Good summary Duke

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Good summary Duke

David,

there is one tine flaw with it. BRW in all probability never returned to the 6th floor.

In his original statement, he said he went straight up to the 5th floor.

The initial press reports gave the location of the chicken bones as the 5th floor.

His statement to the WC that all the guys had agreed to meet back on the 6th floor was not corroborated by anyone else - and this apparent lack of any such agreement is supported by the simple fact that none did go back there.

What does all this indicate? BRW ate his lunch on the 5th floor. The cops relocated his chicken bones to the 6th floor in order to bolster the appearance of a sniper having waited there. Wade even indicated early on that those bones indicated a cool calculating assassin who had planned this for a very long time.

When the lone opportunist assassin story won out, someone had to be placed on the 6th floor to account for dem bones. BRW was the best choice since they were actually his. Thus his story is "value-added" by the time of his WC appearance.

So let's recap.

The Truly-Baker-Oswald lunch room encounter was bogus.

BRW gnawing on his chicken bones on the 6th is bogus.

Stories changed as the need to alter the narrative arose. And the need arose as new evidence unfolded AND as the need to change the scenario became obvious - the best example being from a Commie Conspiracy to LN.

Edited by Greg Parker
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As I've said, the TSBD, with its owners and personnel, deserves a book devoted to it. Some useful work on this page - thanks.

William Wheaton's articles on the TSBD in The Third Decade (and perhaps the Fourth) are great sources on TSBD characters high and low.

Edited by David Andrews
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As I've said, the TSBD, with its owners and personnel, deserves a book devoted to it. Some useful work on this page - thanks.

William Wheaton's articles on the TSBD in The Third Decade (and perhaps the Fourth) are great sources on TSBD characters high and low.

Agreed. I think that's William Weston re: articles on TSBD

Also, the question remains:

If Oswald is on the second floor at 12:34-6 pm, when the court clerk from across the street saw a man standing in the sixth floor sniper's window - who was that person?

BK

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