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Perceptions of the three tramps


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For many years conspiracy theorists believed that the three tramps were involved in the assassination. Charles Harrelson, Chauncey Holt, Charles Frederick Rogers and E. Howard Hunt have all been named as possible tramps.

In 1989 the Dallas City Council voted to release all city records having to do with the assassination. Journalist Mary La Fontaine, found the arrest records that showed the tramps to be: Harold Doyle, John Forester Gedney and Gus W. Abrams. Ray and Mary LaFontaine traced Harold Doyle, who was now living in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Gedney was located in Melbourne, Florida. Both men confirmed they were the tramps in the photograph.

Gus Abrams, the oldest of the tramps, was dead. But researcher Kenneth Formet interviewed his sister, with whom he had lived the last 15 years of his life. She confirmed that her brother was the third man in the picture.

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For many years conspiracy theorists believed that the three tramps were involved in the assassination. Charles Harrelson, Chauncey Holt, Charles Frederick Rogers and E. Howard Hunt have all been named as possible tramps.

Many conpiracy supporters still believe that. I for one am CERTAIN that Holt, Harrelson and Rogers were the 3 tramps. Jack White and Alan Weberman f.e. are supporters of Hunt and Sturgis

In 1989 the Dallas City Council voted to release all city records having to do with the assassination. Journalist Mary La Fontaine, found the arrest records that showed the tramps to be: Harold Doyle, John Forester Gedney and Gus W. Abrams. Ray and Mary LaFontaine traced Harold Doyle, who was now living in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Gedney was located in Melbourne, Florida. Both men confirmed they were the tramps in the photograph.

These "arrest records" were planted most likely as damage control for Chauncey Holt's story. They do not have fingerprints and arrest photographs. Duh? This is an arrest in conncetion with the President of the USA! Why? Because mugshots and fingerprints would demolish the Gedney, Doyle and Abrams fabrication. Fortunately, you don't have to be a facial recognition expert to see that even the grandpa-like pictures of Doyle, Gedney and Abrams are the opposite of a match with the three tramps.

Gus Abrams, the oldest of the tramps, was dead. But researcher Kenneth Formet interviewed his sister, with whom he had lived the last 15 years of his life. She confirmed that her brother was the third man in the picture.

I'd like to hear a tape see a transcript of that interview!

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm

This is Lois Gibson, the world most famous facial expert, at the en of her slide presentation of the three tramps:

All I can say is that if these are not the men who I say they are, then it's just such an amazing coincidence that Charles Frederick Rogers, who was an excellent shot, a pilot, who was proficient in spanish and russian, and who was probably in the CIA, ... and he is the only identifiable suspect in the double murder of his parents, he dismembered them and then put them in the refrigerator, which would be .... I think you would guess that if you think about this murder scene, it was a means to gain time. To store the bodies so that they would not smell and so that he could get his affairs in order before he had to leave town.

So here is a man that looks just like him, at the scene after Kennedy was shot. Behind him is a man who is known ... he is a suspect in two other murders, in the Doolittle murder in Corpus Christi, .... Charles Harrelson, and then he was convicted of a murder of a federal judge, for hire, he was paid to murder that judge. Another excellent shot, this man is an excellent marksman. And then behind him is a man that looks exactly like Chauncey Holt, who SAYS he was there. Who is also an excellent shot. And who said he worked for the mob and for the CIA.

Editor's note: And who identified the other two as Charles Harrelson and Richard Montoya, which was an alias that Charles Rogers used.

So it's just a coincidence that all three of these men, who were nefarious, criminal types ..., two of which were murder suspects, one convicted. It's just a coincidece that they are in Dealey Plaxa, and being arrested by the police officers after Kennedy was shot.

Now, I said ... I say that the old tramp is Chauncey Holt.

And that the short tramp is Charles Frederick Rogers

And all I can say, there is a detective named Jim Benford, he is at the Houston Police Department. we have a double homicide in Houston, Texas, that is still unsolved. If you know where this man is, call him at 713 308 3600. Because we like to talk to this man. We believe he murdered his parents.

And then of course Charles Harrelson ... is the blond-headed tramp. And why do we have to go though all this? The Dallas Police Department arrested three men, right after the president of the United States is killed .... and they do not photograph those men ... Everyone knows that if you are arrested, even for a minor crime, you get fingerprinted and you get photographed. And if THEY had photographs, then they would show me by now .. they could come and show me that "No, this isn't Charles Harrelson!...

"No, this is not Chauncey Holt! This is not Charles Rogers!" They could show me these pictures and say: "Gosh, it's just guys that look just like them!" But they don't have pictures. Law enforcement people have taken pictures of people they arrest since after the Civil War. For sure it was a common practice by the nineteentwenties! And where are the fingerprints? They don't have them! And what DID happen that day?

Chauncey knew! Chauncey told us. They were walked to the police department and then they were let go, out the back door. Not being photographed. So because of the Dallas Police Department ... and why did the Dallas Police Department not photograph these men? So they could tell me "No, this is not these men. It's just other people that look just like them." That's the question I wanna know! Why weren't they photographed, why weren't they fingerprinted?

Edited by Wim Dankbaar
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wim,

do you know of any other facial expert that has looked at the tramps as it would be even more convincing for two experts to give their opinion that there is a match. Wasn't the last available photo of rogers taken around 1953 or am i mistaken, i would have thought that this would make the process somewhat more difficult. My mind is by no means made up on this subject, are there any photos of sturgis in 1963 as in all the photos i have seen his weight seems to show that he could not have been the first tramp. we need to find someone that knew harrelson around 1963 and see what they think of the photos. The third tramp looks quite older than hunt and holt at that time although i think hunt would have more brains than to let himself get picked up. if there were 20 people arrested that day and not logged in, wouldn't that make an escape, perhaps that is a bit too far fetched , although with holts story they did not expect to be picked up.

john

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Just looking at the photos again, Hunt has that narrow face look about him which is more like the tramp than Holt, but hey I'm no expert.

I would be interested to hear what Larry Hancock has to say about the tramps. Where (if at all) do they fit into the grand scheme of things.

Wim, if indeed the Holt story is true, holt has nothing to do with the shooting, do you believe Harrelson to be on a part of the knoll or in tsbd ? where would Harrelson and Rogers be positioned in order for files to be a shooter also. Do you believe in the Badgeman story also? I would be interested to hear your thoughts, I'm just confused as to the positioning of the shooters or if Rogers was a shooter and Harrelson a spotter or vice versa?

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hi again,

just looking at wims www.jfkmurdersolved.com i saw a comparison photo between holt and the third tramp and i have to say that it is extremely convincing, wim i hope you dont mind me posting this picture, i will take it off if you dont want it here.

the second photo shows a comparison with a photo of gedney as the tall tramp and i have to say that the facial structure just doesnt really fit (in my unqualified opinion)

john

i cant get the photos to upload so i will just show the link to wims site

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois3.htm

both photos are on this page, the holt comparison is the second last one and the gedney one is the fifth from top.

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These "arrest records" were planted most likely as damage control for Chauncey Holt's story.  They do not have fingerprints and arrest photographs. Duh? This is an arrest in conncetion with the President of the USA!  Why? Because mugshots and fingerprints would demolish the Gedney, Doyle and Abrams fabrication. Fortunately, you don't have to be a facial recognition expert to see that even the grandpa-like pictures of Doyle, Gedney and Abrams are the opposite of a match with the three tramps.

If the document was planted how do you explain the testimony of Harold Doyle, John Forester Gedney and the sister of Gus W. Abrams.

I have never thought that the three tramps were significant in explaining the assassination. It might well be true that E. Howard Hunt was involved in the assassination. If he was, he was unlikely to have been in Dallas on the day it happened. Even if he was (and there is evidence that another member of Operation 40, Rip Robertson, was in Dealey Plaza) would he really have been dressed up as a tramp?

It seems to me that this photograph is only important if you are convinced that Chauncey Holt was involved in the assassination. Wim does and that is why he has to refute the evidence that the three tramps were Harold Doyle, John Forester Gedney and Gus W. Abrams.

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John,

I do not refute Gedney, Doyle and Abrams because I believe in Chauncey Holt, Harrelson and Rogers. I refute them because of their absolutely ridiculously weak evidence. They are no match for the three tramps as photographed 7 times in Dealey Plaza.

And have you ever heard of arrests in connection with the killing of a president, without mugshots and fingerprints?

I give it a < 10% chance that Abrams, Doyle and Gedney were indeed tramps arrested in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. But then they were not the tramps in the photographs. I give it a > 90% chance they are just a disinfo story for damage control on Chauncey Holt's story. And I know beyond ANY doubt his story is TRUE.

Wim

PS: I also believe Hunt was involved and in Dallas that day. But not as a "tramp". In fact, the jury found he WAS in Dallas that day. Ask Mark Lane. He won a 1985 lawsuit regarding that.

Edited by Wim Dankbaar
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Ask Mark Lane. He won a 1985 lawsuit regarding that.

]

That isn't true.

The Liberty Lobby published a magazine called The Spotlight which ran an article in 1976 that claimed that Hunt was in Dallas on November 22 and he participated in the assassination. Hunt won a libel judgement against The Spotlight in 1981 but it was thrown out on appeal. The case was retried in 1985. The jury found that the article was not malicious and they found The Spotlight not guilty of libel. The fact is, the verdict hinged not on whether Hunt was an assassination conspirator, but rather whether the article met a narrow legal definition of “malice.”

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John, my thoughts on the tramps are the same as my thoughts on many of the other details of DP on November 22 i.e. the investigation was so poor, there are so many pieces missing and the questioning of the witnesses by both the FBI and WC staff was so horrendous that we will be left debating things like the tramps forever. Which is one of the things that after a decade or so let away from such debates and into a different tack entirely.

Of course I've spent time on the tramps as everyone has, and it's clear to me that at least two sets of tramps and possibly some singletons were taken into custody - but never really seriously investigated or booked in regard to the JFK murder. You can find traces of both sets in the DPD tapes and police reports including tramps over by the postal annex and the tramps Bowers fingered for the DPD. The ones Bowers saw were in a train moving back through DP from the East with the engine down by the overpass, indicating they would have boarded outside the Plaza itself. And he clearly saw a man in a gondola which let him to stop the train, nothing about men in a boxcar.

It bothers me a good deal though that Bowers does not mention the incident in his first day statement (for all he knew at the time he had just personally fingered the President's murderers?) nor does he mention it in any following testimony. It should have been pretty dramatic, lots of armed police pulling several men out of a railroad car - but there's nothing on the record.

Also, although I have some problems with certain of Holt's details about his activities on Nov. 22 I personally feel that he is one of the open issues that deserves a lot of serious investigation he has not received. His daughter shared a great amount of detail about names for front companies he had named and people he had known and I do not know of anyone that has truly researched that yet; it gets repeated but research is what's needed. And his story about the ID (although it seems a bit incredible that it would be brought into DP and distributed on site the morning of the assassination) is especially interesting given the independent FBI report of Hargraves being seen with SS ID and Hargraves own admission that he carried SS ID.

All in all, I've pretty much given up on the issue of the tramps themselves but I'd like to see some serious research into some of the other information provided by Holt - what I'd really like to see is one single piece of evidence confirming that one of the names that he was given was indeed one of Tracy Barnes Domestic Ops front companies.... then the game would indeed be in play.

-- Larry

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There is no resemblance at all between the short tramp and Charles Rogers. If I had the photo comparison handy I would post it, but there is no resemblance.

Lois Gibson's ID of the short tramp as Rogers reduces her credibility as an "expert" to zero.

It also tends to discredit Holt's story, as he claimed to have known the short tramp as Montoya, an alias used by Rogers. Thus Holt would also lead us to believe that the short tramp was Rogers, which is ridiculous.

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Ron,

The problem matching Rogers with the short tramp is that only pictures of a YOUNG Charles Rogers are available for comparison. To the non-expert the short tramp may not look like much like young Charles Rogers. There is a good 20 years of age diferrence between them. However looks can change with age, but not facial structure and features. Every single dimension and facial feature of the short tramp (including height) up to the eye wrinkles, is an EXACT match for Rogers. Moreover two contemprary witnesses of Rogers at an older age, who knew Rogers, picked him out IMMEDIATELY from the tramps photographs. Chuck Rolland of Houston ice skating rink, and a girl friend who dated Rogers. I guess you didn't know that. I recommend you to read "The man on the grassy knoll", by John Craig and Philip Rogers (no relatation)

If the short tramp is Rogers, and I have no doubt he is, then it only re-inforces Holt's story.

Wim

Edited by Wim Dankbaar
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