Cigdem Gole

[John Dolva]

For some time a female Educator from the Mid East region was posting in many topics and starting many in the arts and history fields, that, I think, not only I found interesting.

She's an atttractive modern woman as well choosing to express herself in her way, (why not?) so that probably leads to stresses on a male dominated forum, but why can't that be an advantage to the Forum?

It's potentially moderating IMO and opens the door to discussions about sexism and patrarchy, (and briefly she was a moderator and could have increased the female number of moderators approaching a balance that attracts a more mature academia to the forum, and this can only be good, but patriarchy seems to rule. (it's true that briefly there seemed to be an attempt to deal with this. (I can think of moderators who would be well replaced by persons such as she.)). Yet she left. Why?

So, while taking Cigdem as an example...

Forum :

I guess the question really is why isn't there more diversity in persons and subjects?

Why is it so closed in so many ways to so much of the world?

(If it was opened up by some affirmative action, IMO everyone not only forum members but the world at large would benefit.)

What is it that keeps persons like that and those empathic to same away from the forum?

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(I see a Happy Birthday is in order, so : a Happy Birthday Cigdem. (even if not reading the forum)

(And it'd be great to see you posting again and resuming moderation, along with more women educators on the forum who should IMO replace inactive males and those less suited for the job).

[Cigdem Göle]

John,

Thank you for your kind comments, compliments and birthday wishes.

I haven't left, I was away on holiday but it's true that I haven't been participating

in the Forum much lately. One of the reasons for that is there are always more conspiracy

oriented discussions here than educational ones. Of course one can get educated and

enlightened (!) by reading conspiracy theories too, but personally I find most of them hard

to believe, to put it mildly. In my opinion, a great deal of these theories are the works of

paranoid-minded people who can't even spell their own language, so for me, most are far from

being interesting, let alone convincing.

I wish there were also discussions going on other than 9/11, JFK and government conspiracies.

I have opened some topics in other sections hoping to talk about non-conspirational subjects but

there was/is little partcipation, if any. Therefore I don't see a reason to start more threads that

nobody cares about. Even my last thread, which was about Albert Speer, was about to turn

into a JFK debate.

As for being a moderator, I asked Andy to be excused from the job because of the reasons I will

not go into. The Education Forum is the second online community I have joined and my experiences

in both communities have taught me well that in a male dominated crowd, it doesn't matter how intellectual,

not so intellectual, well-informed or ignorant a woman is, people are always interested in something else.

And this is enough reason for me to stay away.

Thanks again for your concern but I wish you hadn't put me under the spotlight by opening such a thread.

I've had my say and explained my reasons for quitting moderation to Andy and I don't want to get

involved in further discussions about this.

[John Dolva]

Cigdem : "John,

Thank you for your kind comments, compliments and birthday wishes.

I haven't left, I was away on holiday but it's true that I haven't been participating in the Forum much lately. One of the reasons for that is there are always more conspiracy oriented discussions here than educational ones. Of course one can get educated and enlightened (!) by reading conspiracy theories too, but personally I find most of them hard to believe, to put it mildly. In my opinion, a great deal of these theories are the works of paranoid-minded people who can't even spell their own language, so for me, most are far from being interesting, let alone convincing.

I wish there were also discussions going on other than 9/11, JFK and government conspiracies. I have opened some topics in other sections hoping to talk about non-conspirational subjects but there was/is little partcipation, if any. Therefore I don't see a reason to start more threads that nobody cares about. Even my last thread, which was about Albert Speer, was about to turn into a JFK debate.

As for being a moderator, I asked Andy to be excused from the job because of the reasons I will not go into. The Education Forum is the second online community I have joined and my experiences in both communities have taught me well that in a male dominated crowd, it doesn't matter how intellectual, not so intellectual, well-informed or ignorant a woman is, people are always interested in something else. And this is enough reason for me to stay away.

Thanks again for your concern but I wish you hadn't put me under the spotlight by opening such a thread. I've had my say and explained my reasons for quitting moderation to Andy and I don't want to get involved in further discussions about this."

Cigdem, you are Welcome, thank you, and Welcome Back. You are a Fighter.

You are Rational.

You are Consistent.

You, or your input if you will ( which came first the chicken or the egg??? Or are they the same thing? ) are quite simply interesting. (To me anyway.). I admit I was here primarily initially about the jfk thing but over time I discovered the rest of the forum. then I had an abscense. Then I had a growing realisation about this new forum member, (which those who remember one of my other personas as being very close to what my life is), an interest in art, culture, so many other things, may understand a more and more growing interest. However, I had to deal with my self so much that I shied away from responding. As well I think on many matters quite simply you have the final say. There's nothing more to say.. And I'm sure you realise exactly why.

And then we move to the kernel of the matter.

"As for being a moderator, I asked Andy to be excused from the job because of the reasons I will not go into."

>>>

''The Education Forum is the second online community I have joined and my experiences in both communities have taught me well that in a male dominated crowd, it doesn't matter how intellectual, not so intellectual, well-informed or ignorant a woman is, people are always interested in something else. And this is enough reason for me to stay away.''

This is the issue for making the executive decicion to create this post. You go right to the heart of the matter with an unusual integrity. ipso facto my premise about moderating is demonstrated, by YOU!

Some will understand others not, some will quake in their boots...sad but true

So, you've explained this to Andy? Ok, that's very interesting.

OK. this is not about you,

Don't get involved. You don't have to at all.

I'll advocate letting the topic heading stand and leave the intro, however should you at all express a wish that it changes I will support same and would suggest Sexism as the heading and rewrite the first post, perferably as a new post naming it the beginning of the topic and for continuitys sake, I'd prefer to leave it as is for now.

Thank you for responding.

Edited August 1, 2009 by John Dolva

[Cigdem Göle]

John,

While I appreciate some of the positiveness in your statements, I am not sure you understand

the point I am trying to make.

You, or your input if you will ( which came first the chicken or the egg??? Or are they the same thing? ) are quite simply interesting. (To me anyway.). I admit I was here primarily initially about the jfk thing but over time I discovered the rest of the forum. then I had an abscense. Then I had a growing realisation about this new forum member, (which those who remember one of my other personas as being very close to what my life is), an interest in art, culture, so many other things, may understand a more and more growing interest. However, I had to deal with my self so much that I shied away from responding.

I was not targeting you or your non-responsiveness to my posts, so I'm a bit surprised you take it personally. The main

idea there was that the number of non conspiracy related topics being few. It had nothing to do with me expecting

a reply from a particular person.

This is the issue for making the executive decicion to create this post. You go right to the heart of the matter with an unusual integrity. ipso facto my premise about moderating is demonstrated, by YOU!

Some will understand others not, some will quake in their boots...sad but true

So, you've explained this to Andy? Ok, that's very interesting.

OK. this is not about you,

Don't get involved. You don't have to at all.

Good luck with that.

I'll advocate letting the topic heading stand and leave the intro, however should you at all express a wish that it changes I will support same and would suggest Sexism as the heading and rewrite the first post, perferably as a new post naming it the beginning of the topic and for continuitys sake, I'd prefer to leave it as is for now.

Thank you for responding.

Since you are the topic starter, it is up to you to decide what you are going to do with it.

I am sure you will come back for more but before doing so, I advise you to reread my previous post

and try to evaluate what I wrote with an objective point of view.

You might as well want to take a hike, for oxygen helps one to think more clearly.

[Mike Tribe]

John, take a quick look at the current topics. Around half of them seem to be started by people who believe that the American government blew up the World Trade Center, or that, alternatively, it was hit by an Unidentified Flying Object. Almost every topic relates to some conspiracy theory or another. Some of the posters seem to have only the flimsiest grasp of reality. One of even said he was surprised that there weren't even more topics posted on the "9/11 Conspiracy". As Cigdem said, only a very small minority of "educators" have any interest in these bizarre backwaters which really seem to have little or no relation to any "educational" area unless it's abnormal psychology. There used to be a lot of teachers who visited the forum regularly and there were lively discussions, especially on history. I used to recommend the forum to my colleagues and to my students, but I haven't for some time since there would be nothing here to interest them...

[David G. Healy]

John, take a quick look at the current topics. Around half of them seem to be started by people who believe that the American government blew up the World Trade Center, or that, alternatively, it was hit by an Unidentified Flying Object. Almost every topic relates to some conspiracy theory or another. Some of the posters seem to have only the flimsiest grasp of reality. One of even said he was surprised that there weren't even more topics posted on the "9/11 Conspiracy". As Cigdem said, only a very small minority of "educators" have any interest in these bizarre backwaters which really seem to have little or no relation to any "educational" area unless it's abnormal psychology. There used to be a lot of teachers who visited the forum regularly and there were lively discussions, especially on history. I used to recommend the forum to my colleagues and to my students, but I haven't for some time since there would be nothing here to interest them...

ahh Mike, beauty as well as reality is in the eye of the beholder, eh? -- "bizzare backwaters?" Assassination is not a tool of politics? -- You aren't going to tell us the US sllide into oblivion and disrepute didn't start with the political assassinations of the 60's are ya? If that's the case when will you be rewriting history books there, Mike?

Evidently you haven't followed the numbers on this board very close Mike, the JFK assassination/conspiracy: numero uno! It's not JFK assassination contributors that brought down the "lively" educator discussions, that's YOUR fault -- whining about that is a waste of everyones time and I doubt any of this boards conspiracy participants even hear you....

So as far as "grasp of reality" is concerned: would your time be better spent developing secondary education curriculum(s) which actually have merit, you guys are cranking out morons these days.... Is it any wonder why critical (as well as creative) thinking seem to be non-existent these days? Perhaps it's simply "secondary educator" FEAR?

[Mike Tribe]

I think you made my point. All the posts/topics are on various conspiracy theories of doubtful interest to educators but absorbingly attractive to a small minority. Then anyone who suggests that this might, perhaps, be unhealthy for an "education" forum, he or she is the subject of infantile attacks such as yours...

[John Dolva]

Thank you. And I think the negativeness are really the points to focus on.

You are right, Cigdem. I am being defensive there.

It demands an honest answer.

There is an element of the attraction a man feels for a woman and all the attendant confusion in trying to stay on an even keel with regards to academic discussions. While it's not easy it's essential to own such stuff and not tinge things with reactions that belong to me, in me, ONLY, and not to the subject matter at hand.

So, Thank You again.

I'm not interested in continuing with wrong thinking, and you help enormously with your ''to the point'' postings. (True Mod material). In fact, on reflection, I think you were dealing with it in some of our earliest exchanges in ''Manga'' for example.

I am too locked into that which I see as being a character fault in myself, but I think I recognise enough to be try to deal with. Which really brings it back to the real topic here.

Why can't a woman such as yourself be not only free to be everything you are without having to deal with such undercurrents.

I suspect this is a difficulty women encounter all the time.

Going back to the reason why you ''withdrew''. I know you dont want to discuss that. But it seems to me that if the administration is aware of it and have done nothing, then there is something seriously wrong. I can't help thinking that it is for the very reasons i went into. Patrarchy, Power, a kind of secretiveness within a clearly defined grouping who probabably have no interest in dealing with it. Quite the contrary.

Therefore, I hope you can forgive my indisretions.

I think they can be used as educational examples.

[Cigdem Göle]

Evidently you haven't followed the numbers on this board very close Mike, the JFK assassination/conspiracy: numero uno!

David,

The JFK assassination is not the only subject that is being discussed on the Forum, in case you haven't noticed.

There are also discussions going on about 9/11, Apollo Missions and government conspiracies.

I, too, like most people here believe there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination and you can see it by

looking at my posts on the JFK Lancer Forum. However, that does not mean I believe each and every conspiracy

theory posted here or that I am only interested in conspiracies.

The Education Forum is a gold mine for those who would like to discuss many issues on many different topics,

and David, I am sure the assassination of JFK is not your only field of interest, so why don't you open threads

or participate in the ones that are non-conspiracy related?

It's not JFK assassination contributors that brought down the "lively" educator discussions, that's YOUR fault -- whining about that is a waste of everyones time and I doubt any of this boards conspiracy participants even hear you....

But you do.

So as far as "grasp of reality" is concerned: would your time be better spent developing secondary education curriculum(s) which actually have merit, you guys are cranking out morons these days.... Is it any wonder why critical (as well as creative) thinking seem to be non-existent these days? Perhaps it's simply "secondary educator" FEAR?

I find your "blame it on the teacher" thesis quite unreasonable. There have always been and will be "morons" who lack

critical and creative thinking. Even an educator cannot give anyone anything that they refuse to receive. Being obsessed with

only one thing and rejecting -to even talk about- everything else is the point of this discussion.

And "grasp of reality" is not a quality but a luxury for those who got stuck on repeat.

[Cigdem Göle]

Going back to the reason why you ''withdrew''. I know you dont want to discuss that. But it seems to me that if the administration is aware of it and have done nothing, then there is something seriously wrong.

John,

Like I said, I explained the reasons for my "withdrawal" to the administration and asked them to keep it

confidential. Therefore, there is no such thing as admins being inactive. It was my request from them and

they kindly accepted it. I'd appreciate if you just drop it!

By the way, there was no need for an apology.

Always a pleasure to talk to you.

[John Dolva]

Cigdem. Ok, I will.

However, ( ) I'd like to continue with the matter of why such a situation arises, (and to respect the confidentiality), why is a silenece on such matters desirable all around. In the world we live in it is a simple fact that women are treated in particular ways that men are not. Largely around the issues of power, with taking rape, virtual rape, unsolicited perverted behaviour, not unlike that of paedophilia, marital violence, or a person in authority taking liberties knowing that there firstly will be a compliance and silence from the victim, and should the issue arise then the victim becomes a further victim in the process of those in authority, who should deal with it, shifting the onus onto the victim, which in itself is a further form of intimidation, so, in many cases brutality against women and children remain an unspoken matter. ie like Pilate washing his hands of the matter, the persons in authority are absolved, and the stage is set for repeat offences. I wonder how many leave for reasons like this.

I think the Forum would generate a great deal of goodwill and respect if it took proactive actions, and I think this doesn't need to have the victim becoming the person under scrutiny. I think it becomes worse when it is not dealt with. Let's say there is a general unspoken dictum within male persons of authority to tend to close ranks. That then reflects on the entire structure, and one in settling for nothing now, will certainly settle for nothing later. It also, as lies have a tendency to sink unless one generates energy to keep them afloat, and truth rises unless suppressed, shows itself as an improper imbalance that is discreditable. This is after all an Education forum. To have a prominent position of authority in the field, it seems to me these are fundational matters and if the foundation is flawed, well ...

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Thank you, and ditto. I appreciate it