Capt. Michael D. Groves

[William Kelly]

Now all we need is the report entered into the Congressional Record on December 4, 1963 and we'll have all of the proper announcements of his death.

Why would you expect his death to be listed there?

I missed the Cleveland or Detroit question, but have the street address and city and don't know what Cleveland or Detroit have anything to do with it.

Don and Gladys Groves lived at 251 Euclid Ave. in Birmingham, Michigan 71-74.

Because the Groves lived in Greater Cleveland and Greater Detroit and if the supposed ex-neighbor lives in one of those areas his claim to have known them would be slightly less non-credible. Where did you get the address from?

I've also sent an email to the Ancestory Mag writer who located the parents but didn't question them or the soldiers who served with him.

Should he have questioned Groves' parents via séance? They died 1993-4. He didn't contact anyone from the family. Why should he have questioned the soldiers who served with him? Let me guess, he didn't get back to you.

It should be noted that (based on the article) though his parents and especially his maternal grandmother lived to ripe old ages his only sibling died at 37 and her only child died young as well. If the guy does get back to you ask him what they died of. It should also be noted his sister spoke to the author of the Cleveland Plain Dealer obit and doesn't seem to have said anything about him have really died just before or after JFK's funeral

FOIA takes years, and it isn't necessary in this case.

They can take years but often take a lot less time, were you the one going on and on about being doing real research? Wouldn't that entail trying to get the autopsy report and/or death certificate of someone you believe was poisoned and only taken to hospital 8 days after he died?

I note that you avoided dealing with explaining how doctors would be unable to tell the difference between some who'd died a few minutes earlier and someone who'd died over 8 days earlier.

Is silly Len's word of the day or is he going silly?

"Silly" is the best word to describe your posts on this thread,I can use less polite terms if you prefer variety.

One man's silly is another man's fascination, or as you put it obsession.

We started out with a quote from Craig Roberts, a military man who thought the death of Capt. Groves suspicious, and mentions it in a book he wrote "Dead Witnesses," that we haven't even read yet. Did anybody buy it and see what it says? John Gillespie hinted that he was interested.

There's also a reference in one of the obits or articles to a mention of Capt. Groves in the Dec. 4 Congressional Record, which would have been a day after his official death.

We also got an email from a former neighbor who said that Groves' parents and sister also thought the death suspicous, the sister calling it murder.

They also told the neighbors that Groves died before the official date of death, possibly even before JFK's funeral, and we have a published reference by a former soldier who served with him that he learned of Capt. Groves death a few hours after the funeral.

We also have a letter from the Irish Guards thanking Capt. Groves for his hospitality during the funeral, and we have a single reference to Capt. Groves, during the funeral, asking the White House staff to move from their location at the Capitol rotunda, which supports the idea that he was at the funeral even though we don't have any photos of him there, yet.

We also learned that Groves commanding general ran a deception operation and used a "decoy" ambulance in moving the body from Andrews to Bethesda, and that Capt. Reid was also relieved of command and ordered not to attend the funeral because of a general's wife (or was there more to it that that?).

What you find silly I am finding fascinating.

And I'm not done yet.

The difference between researchers and debunkers is the debunkers just go around putting out little fires and don't seem to learn anything, while researchers continually build on what is known and try to learn more, and do.

You should get school credit just for reading this stuff.

BK

[Bernice Moore]

BILL I WILL TRY AGAIN TO FIND MY COPY OF' DEAD WITNESSES' TO HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT HE SAYS...B

[Len Colby]

One man's silly is another man's fascination, or as you put it obsession.

We started out with a quote from Craig Roberts, a military man who thought the death of Capt. Groves suspicious, and mentions it in a book he wrote "Dead Witnesses," that we haven't even read yet. Did anybody buy it and see what it says? John Gillespie hinted that he was interested.

You keep going on about being a real researcher; the book is available for download for $12.95. If you are so curious and think Roberts credible why not pop for it? Sorry I find it difficult to take anyone who’d collaborate with John “Henry and Lee” Armstrong, the co-author of the book, seriously. See if they cite any evidence that the death was suspicious. One claim that made it into the blurb for the book and the Palamara paper is that “The Honor Guard, for some mysterious reason, had been practicing for a presidential funeral for three days before the assassination” not only does this make little sense but it was directly contradicted by Capt. Reid. Based on the Palamara summery the book gave a very graphic description of his death at the dinner table December 3, presumably from who witnessed it. So your various sources contradict, not support each other; did he die before, just after or 8 days after the funeral?

There's also a reference in one of the obits or articles to a mention of Capt. Groves in the Dec. 4 Congressional Record, which would have been a day after his official death.

Unfortunately the Congressional Record 1876 – 1988 is not available online. It is available at libraries including one in Newark but imagine at ones in Trenton and Philly as well. ‘According to a speech on the floor of the House of Representatives by Congressman James G.Fulton of Pennsylvania , “Captain Groves worked day and night to handle the arrangements . . . and overtaxed himself.”’

http://www.library.wwu.edu/ref/subjects/go.../congrecord.htm

http://www.whitehousehistory.org/whha_publ...ehistory_19.pdf

We also got an email from a former neighbor who said that Groves ' parents and sister also thought the death suspicous, the sister calling it murder.

They also told the neighbors that Groves died before the official date of death, possibly even before JFK's funeral, and we have a published reference by a former soldier who served with him that he learned of Capt. Groves death a few hours after the funeral.

Supposed ex-neighbor who has made questionable claims and whose identity seeming you have done nothing to verify

We also have a letter from the Irish Guards thanking Capt. Groves for his hospitality during the funeral, and we have a single reference to Capt. Groves, during the funeral, asking the White House staff to move from their location at the Capitol rotunda, which supports the idea that he was at the funeral even though we don't have any photos of him there, yet.

We also have the numerous obituaries which said he was there and Capt Reid says he was there. We also seemingly have his family’s description of how he died on the night of December 3 and the fact he was taken to a hospital just after he died. Do you really think a doctor could not tell the difference between someone who’d died minutes earlier and someone who’d died 8+ days earlier? The ME would also be unable to tell the difference between someone who died hours versus days earlier?

The photo issue is a really stupid one since as Bernice pointed out to you most of the photos of the ceremony don’t identify the people in them and as I pointed out to you other people we know were there aren’t IDed in online photos earlier.

We also learned that Groves commanding general ran a deception operation and used a "decoy" ambulance in moving the body from Andrews to Bethesda

So recalled one witness years after the fact, a witness who misidentified Lt. Bird as “head of the Old Guard” when he was merely a platoon leader, the actual c/o was a Lt. Coronel. Douglas A. Mayfield who “was a 21-year-old Army Specialist 4th Class assigned to the Honor Guard Company of the Old Guard” at the time of the assassination and carried the casket into Bethesda said nothing about this. He did recall prying photographers showing up there, thus we have a logical explanation for such a decoy if one was used.

and that Capt. Reid was also relieved of command and ordered not to attend the funeral because of a general's wife (or was there more to it that that?).

Not according to Reid. In any case what relevance does this or the possible decoy casket have to Groves death.

What you find silly I am finding fascinating.

And I'm not done yet.

The difference between researchers and debunkers is the debunkers just go around putting out little fires and don't seem to learn anything, while researchers continually build on what is known and try to learn more, and do.

Then based on your own definitions you are neither, you insist on pursuing what most probablly a red herring and ignore explanations/evidence which contradicts your speculation all you’ve done in this case is spend some time Googling exchange e-mail with a probably faux witness. A researcher would have:

• tried to verify the person who contacted him really was an ex-neighbor of Groves’ parents

• spent a few bucks to get the obituaries or gotten them from the library

• tried to get a hold of the death certificate and autopsy report

• made a day trip to DC to see if they could find any photos of Groves at the funeral

• read the Ancestry Magazine article BEFORE e-mailing the author.

• Tried to contact Reid

• Tried to get ahold of the 16 unpublished witness statements he collected

• Tried to contact Groves widow, though tracking down the right Mary Johnson might not be easy.

You’ve done none of the above it seems. Oh and speaking of the widow. Groves died while eating a meal she presumably prepared and sometime later she remarried, coincidence?

You should get school credit just for reading this stuff.

LOL delusions of grandeur?

[William Kelly]

Len,

Of course I'm just getting started on this, not wrapping it up.

It's also my last priority at the moment.

And we would never have met any of these interesting people if we didn't check this out.

I don't know why you dragged yourself along if you don't like the trip.

BK

[William Kelly]

Has anyone listened to or read the transcripts of these interviews? - Thanks, BK

Members of JFK's HONOR GUARD interviewed for the Sixth Floor Oral History Project.

Frank Ryan Ryan was serving in the U.S. Coast Guard in 1963 and was part of the Ceremonial Guard at President Kennedy's funeral. Recorded October 9, 1995.

Bud Barnum Barnum was serving in the U.S. Coast Guard in 1963 and was assigned to the Honor Guard at the time of the assassination. He was part of the security detail for President Kennedy's casket upon its arrival in Washington, D.C. During the funeral, he served as a pallbearer and marched in the processional to Arlington National Cemetery. Recorded April 24, 2007.

Richard Brown Brown served as a member of the Navy Ceremonial Guard during President Kennedy's funeral ceremonies in Washington D.C. Recorded March 28,

Dr. George Christian Christian was a private assigned to U.S. Army Intelligence at the Pentagon in 1963. He visited the Capitol Rotunda that weekend to pay his respects and captured a color home movie of the Kennedy funeral procession on Pennsylvania Avenue, which he donated to The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 2008. Recorded October 28, 2008.

Ronald Wilson One of the few African American U.S. Marines stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C. in 1963, Wilson participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. Recorded December 5, 2009.

John Sumney An Army mechanic from 1958 to 1974, Sumney serviced White House helicopters during the Kennedy years. He participated in a group interview with other Army personnel. Recorded September 19, 2008.

Lee J. Turner An officer in the Navy Ceremonial Guard in 1963, Turner helped unload President Kennedy's casket from Air Force One on the evening of the assassination. On Monday, he marched in the funeral procession to Arlington National Cemetery. Recorded November 23, 2005.

Jerry White An Army presidential helicopter pilot from 1961 to 1964, White flew with President Kennedy. He participated in a group interview with other Army personnel. Recorded September 19, 2008.

Harry M. Moffett III A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., Moffett participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. Recorded December 5, 2009.

Jerry Martynski A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., Martynski participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. He later went on to serve in the Vietnam War.

Robert Neal A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., Neal participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy.

William F. Lee A lieutenant in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1963, Lee commanded the Silent Drill Platoon and was involved in numerous ceremonies at the White House and Camp David during the Kennedy years. After the assassination, he actively participated in the "Death Watch" rotations at the White House and in the U.S. Capitol rotunda. Recorded

Dennis David A petty officer in the Medical Service Corps stationed at Bethesda Naval Medical Center, David was serving as the chief of the day of the medical school on November 22, 1963. He recalled the president's casket arriving at the back of the hospital before Jackie Kennedy's arrival at the front of the hospital, which has become a point of controversy among researchers. On Monday, David had the opportunity to briefly examine photographs and film of the president's autopsy. Recorded June 26, 2007.

Nat Emery A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., Emery participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. Recorded December 5, 2009.

B.C. "Barney" Hulett An Army presidential helicopter pilot from 1959 to 1967, Hulett flew with President Kennedy. He participated in a group interview with other Army personnel. Recorded September 19, 2008.

John Polites Polites was a member of the U.S. Navy and served in the Honor Guard outside the White House during President Kennedy's funeral. Recorded November 12, 1998.

Lt. Col. Walter Scott As a captain in the 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment, Scott was stationed in the U.S. Capitol rotunda the weekend of the Kennedy assassination and was assigned outside St. Matthew's Cathedral during the funeral. He was the officer standing closest to John F. Kennedy Harold T. Slack A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., Slack participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. Recorded December 5, 2009.

Robert DeBardelaben A U.S. Marine stationed at the barracks at 8th and I Streets in Washington, D.C., DeBardelaben participated in the funeral services for President Kennedy. Recorded December 5, 2009.

Edited May 16, 2010 by William Kelly

[Guest Tom Scully]

...One man's silly is another man's fascination, or as you put it obsession.

We started out with a quote from Craig Roberts, a military man who thought the death of Capt. Groves suspicious, and mentions it in a book he wrote "Dead Witnesses," that we haven't even read yet. Did anybody buy it and see what it says? John Gillespie hinted that he was interested.

There's also a reference in one of the obits or articles to a mention of Capt. Groves in the Dec. 4 Congressional Record, which would have been a day after his official death.

We also got an email from a former neighbor who said that Groves' parents and sister also thought the death suspicous, the sister calling it murder.

They also told the neighbors that Groves died before the official date of death, possibly even before JFK's funeral, and we have a published reference by a former soldier who served with him that he learned of Capt. Groves death a few hours after the funeral.

We also have a letter from the Irish Guards thanking Capt. Groves for his hospitality during the funeral, and we have a single reference to Capt. Groves, during the funeral, asking the White House staff to move from their location at the Capitol rotunda, which supports the idea that he was at the funeral even though we don't have any photos of him there, yet.

We also learned that Groves commanding general ran a deception operation and used a "decoy" ambulance in moving the body from Andrews to Bethesda, and that Capt. Reid was also relieved of command and ordered not to attend the funeral because of a general's wife (or was there more to it that that?).

What you find silly I am finding fascinating.

And I'm not done yet.

The difference between researchers and debunkers is the debunkers just go around putting out little fires and don't seem to learn anything, while researchers continually build on what is known and try to learn more, and do.

You should get school credit just for reading this stuff.

BK

Captain Michael D. Groves is described leading the JFK funeral honor guard in the caption in the top right UPI photo.:

[William Kelly]

...One man's silly is another man's fascination, or as you put it obsession.

We started out with a quote from Craig Roberts, a military man who thought the death of Capt. Groves suspicious, and mentions it in a book he wrote "Dead Witnesses," that we haven't even read yet. Did anybody buy it and see what it says? John Gillespie hinted that he was interested.

There's also a reference in one of the obits or articles to a mention of Capt. Groves in the Dec. 4 Congressional Record, which would have been a day after his official death.

We also got an email from a former neighbor who said that Groves' parents and sister also thought the death suspicous, the sister calling it murder.

They also told the neighbors that Groves died before the official date of death, possibly even before JFK's funeral, and we have a published reference by a former soldier who served with him that he learned of Capt. Groves death a few hours after the funeral.

We also have a letter from the Irish Guards thanking Capt. Groves for his hospitality during the funeral, and we have a single reference to Capt. Groves, during the funeral, asking the White House staff to move from their location at the Capitol rotunda, which supports the idea that he was at the funeral even though we don't have any photos of him there, yet.

We also learned that Groves commanding general ran a deception operation and used a "decoy" ambulance in moving the body from Andrews to Bethesda, and that Capt. Reid was also relieved of command and ordered not to attend the funeral because of a general's wife (or was there more to it that that?).

What you find silly I am finding fascinating.

And I'm not done yet.

The difference between researchers and debunkers is the debunkers just go around putting out little fires and don't seem to learn anything, while researchers continually build on what is known and try to learn more, and do.

You should get school credit just for reading this stuff.

BK

Captain Michael D. Groves is described leading the JFK funeral honor guard in the caption in the top right UPI photo.:

That's terrific Tom.

Now that's persistance.

And to think it came in via The Coshocton Tribune's new UPI Unifax Service.

Where's Coshocton?

BK

[David Andrews]

What could Groves have known? How well could he have known it (rumor, observation)? Whom might he have told?

What was the perceived power of such categories of knowledge, in the days when leaks and publicized dissent were less commonplace?

I don't wish to rumor-monger - but could the contents of the interred casket have been at issue?

In the climate that brought about Lt. Cmdr. Bruce Pitzer's death, Groves' possible removal is not a stretch.

Edited August 27, 2010 by David Andrews

[Guest Tom Scully]

...That's terrific Tom.

Now that's persistance.

And to think it came in via The Coshocton Tribune's new UPI Unifax Service.

Where's Coshocton?

BK

Bill, Coshocton is east of Columbus, OH not far northwest of Cambridge, OH, which is the point where I-70 and I-77 intersect. I guess you never had the pleasure of visiting Coshocton during your years in Dayton?

I am only adding this because the supporting documentation is so strong, and because it seems such a fine example of the choice a member here can make in every post; to choose confrontation or cooperation.

I only subscribed last month to the news archive service I used to locate the Michael D. Grove photo. My search was successful using the exact phrase "honor guard", along with the "included words" Michael and Groves. I had to skim 50 of the 80 search results to locate the one that included a photo of Groves. It took longer to crop the newspaper page image, upload it into flcikr.com and post it here than it did to find it.

Len, on the other hand, indicated last year he subscribed to the same news archive service and that he knew how to use it. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14967&view=findpost&p=174060

[William Kelly]

...That's terrific Tom.

Now that's persistance.

And to think it came in via The Coshocton Tribune's new UPI Unifax Service.

Where's Coshocton?

BK

Bill, Coshocton is east of Columbus, OH not far northwest of Cambridge, OH, which is the point where I-70 and I-77 intersect. I guess you never had the pleasure of visiting Coshocton during your years in Dayton?

I am only adding this because the supporting documentation is so strong, and because it seems such a fine example of the choice a member here can make in every post; to choose confrontation or cooperation.

I only subscribed last month to the news archive service I used to locate the Michael D. Grove photo. My search was successful using the exact phrase "honor guard", along with the "included words" Michael and Groves. I had to skim 50 of the 80 search results to locate the one that included a photo of Groves. It took longer to crop the newspaper page image, upload it into flcikr.com and post it here than it did to find it.

Len, on the other hand, indicated last year he subscribed to the same news archive service and that he knew how to use it. http://educationforu...ndpost&p=174060

You don't think Len would do any real resarch, do you?

The caption under the photo reads: Follows Kennedy In Death. The army captain who directed miitary honors for the late President Kennedy's funeral died this past week. An army spokesman said 27-year old Captain Michael D. Givins, commanding officer of the 1st Bin. 3rd Infantry, was pronounced dead at his nearby Ft. Myer, Va. home. He is shown leading his unit during the funeral of the late president. UPI Telephoto.