Abraham Zapruder and Jeanne LeGon

[Greg Burnham]

"People are supposed to document their claims on this forum."

Thanks Jack! LMAO -- Well, I guess I have a lot to learn by way of orientation here. But I guess I'll give everyhting the "sniff" test to be sure.

GO_SECURE

monk

[David G. Healy]

...

People are supposed to document their claims on this forum. Though you didn’t post them here others did and now you’re a member, the ball is in YOUR court not mine. You have yet to produce evidence the groups were CIA fronts OR that Zapruder was a member. DeMordishildt’s brother is irrelevant your claim regarded Zappy.

methinks you're getting all wrapped up in your own self-importance here, AGAIN.... Redd Foxx won't be happy, Len! (btw, since when is any poster here required to respond to lone nuts? Just curious.)

[William Kelly]

While we seem to know a lot about Abe Zapruder, there doesn't seem to be very much at all available on Zapruder's business partner Erwin Schwartz, other than he knew Jack Ruby and helped make the deal with Life.

If Zapruder didn't deliver the copy to the miliary jet at Grand Prarie NAS, as he is unsure about it in his WC testimony. So it must have been Schwartz who delievered, at Sorrel's instructions, a copy of the Z-film to the Grand Prarie Naval Air Station airport where a military jet flew it immediatly to Washington. While here it says Army, and it was for the FBI, I think it stayed with the SS and a SS agent picked it up on the other end. This must be the copy that went to the NPIC on Saturday, Nov. 23 and was used to make the briefing boards that Lundhal used to brief McCone. Right?

But here we have a break in the chain of custody of one of the first generation copies of the Z-film almost immediately when Zapruder and/or Schwartz turn one copy over to a jet plane? Who did they give it to? The Army, the Navy, Secret Service or FBI?

If it was a military jet, it was most likely small jet fighter, and not a large cargo plane, as old photos of the air port history show. They also had a CAP detachment.

But if Sorrels kept the other copy, as the official chronology attests, why did Sorrels have to go over to Zapruder's office to show others the film, as Zapruder testified?

BK

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/za...

November 22, 1963 10:00 p.m.

Erwin Schwartz and Abraham Zapruder delivered two prints to SPIC Dallas Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels. Sorrels asked them to take one to the Dallas Naval Air Station in nearby Grand Prairie, where a jet was immediately dispatched to take the print to FBI investigators in Washington, D.C.

Zapruder Warren Commission Testimony - Vol. VII

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=41&relPageId=587

Zapurder: "…in other words, if you have a point, you can hit a point from anyplace…"

Liebeler: Now, Mr. Zapurder, after you had the film developed, I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct.

Z: Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay. Street.

L: That's the Secret Service?

Z: The Secret Service – I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

OLD GRAND PRAIRIE AIRPORT GRAND PRAIRIE SIGNIFICANT LANDMARK

http://www.gptx.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1984

Site Medallion No. 49 (1930-1976: no longer standing)

With the announcement that North American Aircraft (Later LTV, them Northrup-Grumman) would be constructing a huge aircraft plant along the west side of Hensley Field, the airport was sold again, this time to the U.S. Navy at a cost of $120,336. The airport was developed by the Navy as a flight training facility. With new runways, operational and maintenance facilities at an approximate cost of $823,000, the Navy operated the airfield until after World War II.

On July 12, 1954, the Aviation Section (Later the 149th Aviation Battalion) of the 49th Armored Division and the Texas National Guard moved to the Grand Prairie Airport from Eagle Mountain Lake.

By deed dated May 22, 1962, the Secretary of the Army for the United States conveyed 193.82 acres, without monetary considerations, to the City of Grand Prairie, Texas for use as a public airport. The remaining two acres, with all of the operational and maintenance buildings, were retained by Department of the Army for continued use by the National Guard. The City's portion of the airport was operated as the Grand Prairie Municipal Airport.

Because of its small size and the fact that the city was starting to grow up around the airport, the airport was considered unsafe for public use, and it was decided that a new airport was needed. In 1964, the Department of the Army granted the City of Grand Prairie the right to sell 127 acres of the 193 acres in order that the city could build a new airport south of the current location. The remaining 66 acres used by the 149th was eventually sold and the 149th moved to the Dallas Naval Air Station (formerly Hensely Field) in 1976. The Old Grand Prairie Airport served the area well from its inception in 1930 until its closing in 1976. The early flying schools, the private operators, the operation of a flight training facility by the U.S. Navy during World War II, the home of the 149th Aviation Battalion of the Texas National Guard from 1954 to 1976, the presence of the Civil Air Patrol, a glider operation, and for a time the airport serving as the Grand Prairie Municipal Airport, all helped to contribute to the growth and development of Grand Prairie and to the defense of the country.

Today, there is no trace of the airport. Industrial developments, private businesses, and city and government buildings now cover the grounds of the old airport. Only memories remain with those who are still around to remember what occurred there. The Old Grand Prairie Airport is a part of the history of Grand Prairie, as are the thousands of individuals who participated in its existence.

Edited March 6, 2010 by William Kelly

[Len Colby]

I didn't post this paper on the forum--someone else did. Had I wanted to discuss it perhaps I would have, but I don't care. I find coincidences interesting, but not necessarily meaningful and in any event, this is all rather old news. I am looking forward to having more relevant discussions than this subject, because even though its my paper, I don't think it matters much at all.

In other words after many of your claims have been shown to be questionable and in some cases false you unwilling to retract or defend them. You have very good reasons not to want to discuss it.

After exhaustive research to confirm facts,

LOL,"exhaustive research"? "to confirm facts"? are you kidding! You didn’t cite a single source in your “paper” and were unable to cite any when asked other than a supposed anonymous source who you couldn’t even confirm was in a position to know what they claim and an unnamed “researcher”.

the only out come I was hoping for when I wrote it was to draw some attention to the man who filmed the assassination and some peripheral circumstances.

i.e. you wanted to cast aspersions against Zapruder all you came up with is unsubstantiated innuendo and misinformation.

[Len Colby]

"People are supposed to document their claims on this forum."

Thanks Jack! LMAO -- Well, I guess I have a lot to learn by way of orientation here. But I guess I'll give everyhting the "sniff" test to be sure.

GO_SECURE

monk

Jack as (almost) always is simply confused. Just because he thinks he is above defending the bullxxxx he posts here he thinks he and his allies aren’t expected to but John indicated otherwise:

(iii) Wherever possible, members should give references (books, documents, etc) concerning the comments that they make. This will help those carrying out academic research into this area.

PS - BILL KELLY

What exactly was the point of your post above?

[David G. Healy]

"People are supposed to document their claims on this forum."

Thanks Jack! LMAO -- Well, I guess I have a lot to learn by way of orientation here. But I guess I'll give everyhting the "sniff" test to be sure.

GO_SECURE

monk

Jack as (almost) always is simply confused. Just because he thinks he is above defending the bullxxxx he posts here he thinks he and his allies aren’t expected to but John indicated otherwise:

(iii) Wherever possible, members should give references (books, documents, etc) concerning the comments that they make. This will help those carrying out academic research into this area.

PS - BILL KELLY

What exactly was the point of your post above?

Is Redd Foxx in-the-house, I say? Man, the ARRP and the HSCA document release certainly has the trolls running in all direction.... methinks the latest nutter-xxxxx whining is a run for cover from Doug Horne"s 5 volume set...

[Bill Miller]

Is Redd Foxx in-the-house, I say? Man, the ARRP and the HSCA document release certainly has the trolls running in all direction.... methinks the latest nutter-xxxxx whining is a run for cover from Doug Horne"s 5 volume set...

David, can you offer any 'references (books, documents, etc) concerning the comments that you made' or are you going to bless everyone with yet another say nothing asinine response?

Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

Is Redd Foxx in-the-house, I say? Man, the ARRP and the HSCA document release certainly has the trolls running in all direction.... methinks the latest nutter-xxxxx whining is a run for cover from Doug Horne"s 5 volume set...

David, can you offer any 'references (books, documents, etc) concerning the comments that you made' or are you going to bless everyone with yet another say nothing asinine response?

Bill Miller

english a second language for ya, there Wild Bill? What can you fathom out of the term "Doug Horne"s 5 volume set"? It all comes down to faith there Wild Bill, in your case faith in the WCR.... we understand why it's so difficult to defend it! FAITH is your only excuse!

[Bill Miller]

english a second language for ya, there Wild Bill? What can you fathom out of the term "Doug Horne"s 5 volume set"? It all comes down to faith there Wild Bill, in your case faith in the WCR.... we understand why it's so difficult to defend it! FAITH is your only excuse!

Is that it, David? For some reason I have the feeling you haven't read what you've referenced any more than you have read any of my post over the years which clearly show that I disagreed with the Warren Commission findings. In fact, I think from reading your responses over the years that you probably haven't read much of anything on the JFK assassination unless it was scribbled on the wall next to a urinal in a drunk tank.

Bill Miller

[John Dolva]

Can't wait for the classic ole Bill and David season's over.

[William Kelly]

COLBY ASKS "What the's point" of this post?

The point is, Zapruder had a partner Erwin Schwartz, the son of his original partner, who is probably still alive, and was a major participant in the creation and sale of the Z-film. According to the official chronology, he accompanied Zapruder when two copies of the z-film were given to the SS, and Sorrels asked them to drop one off at Grand Prarie Naval Air Station, where it was flown by military jet to DC. This must be the copy that was delivered to the NPIC on Saturday and used to make the briefing boards that were used by Art Lundahl to brief CIA director McCone.

That's a major point in the chain of possession of one copy of the film.

Gary Mack notes that the brief history of the Grand Prarie NAS below is incomplete and the air port is back and in operation again. It is located just west of Dallas on a lake.

Mack also notes that the Sixth Floor has an oral history interview with Mr. Schwartz, that I have requested since it is not available on line.

That's the point, but apparently because there's nothing that Colby can argue about or curse, he just doesn't get it.

BK

While we seem to know a lot about Abe Zapruder, there doesn't seem to be very much at all available on Zapruder's business partner Erwin Schwartz, other than he knew Jack Ruby and helped make the deal with Life.

If Zapruder didn't deliver the copy to the miliary jet at Grand Prarie NAS, as he is unsure about it in his WC testimony. So it must have been Schwartz who delievered, at Sorrel's instructions, a copy of the Z-film to the Grand Prarie Naval Air Station airport where a military jet flew it immediatly to Washington. While here it says Army, and it was for the FBI, I think it stayed with the SS and a SS agent picked it up on the other end. This must be the copy that went to the NPIC on Saturday, Nov. 23 and was used to make the briefing boards that Lundhal used to brief McCone. Right?

But here we have a break in the chain of custody of one of the first generation copies of the Z-film almost immediately when Zapruder and/or Schwartz turn one copy over to a jet plane? Who did they give it to? The Army, the Navy, Secret Service or FBI?

If it was a military jet, it was most likely small jet fighter, and not a large cargo plane, as old photos of the air port history show. They also had a CAP detachment.

But if Sorrels kept the other copy, as the official chronology attests, why did Sorrels have to go over to Zapruder's office to show others the film, as Zapruder testified?

BK

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/za...

November 22, 1963 10:00 p.m.

Erwin Schwartz and Abraham Zapruder delivered two prints to SPIC Dallas Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels. Sorrels asked them to take one to the Dallas Naval Air Station in nearby Grand Prairie, where a jet was immediately dispatched to take the print to FBI investigators in Washington, D.C.

Zapruder Warren Commission Testimony - Vol. VII

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=41&relPageId=587

Zapurder: "…in other words, if you have a point, you can hit a point from anyplace…"

Liebeler: Now, Mr. Zapurder, after you had the film developed, I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct.

Z: Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay. Street.

L: That's the Secret Service?

Z: The Secret Service – I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

OLD GRAND PRAIRIE AIRPORT GRAND PRAIRIE SIGNIFICANT LANDMARK

http://www.gptx.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1984

Site Medallion No. 49 (1930-1976: no longer standing)

With the announcement that North American Aircraft (Later LTV, them Northrup-Grumman) would be constructing a huge aircraft plant along the west side of Hensley Field, the airport was sold again, this time to the U.S. Navy at a cost of $120,336. The airport was developed by the Navy as a flight training facility. With new runways, operational and maintenance facilities at an approximate cost of $823,000, the Navy operated the airfield until after World War II.

On July 12, 1954, the Aviation Section (Later the 149th Aviation Battalion) of the 49th Armored Division and the Texas National Guard moved to the Grand Prairie Airport from Eagle Mountain Lake.

By deed dated May 22, 1962, the Secretary of the Army for the United States conveyed 193.82 acres, without monetary considerations, to the City of Grand Prairie, Texas for use as a public airport. The remaining two acres, with all of the operational and maintenance buildings, were retained by Department of the Army for continued use by the National Guard. The City's portion of the airport was operated as the Grand Prairie Municipal Airport.

Because of its small size and the fact that the city was starting to grow up around the airport, the airport was considered unsafe for public use, and it was decided that a new airport was needed. In 1964, the Department of the Army granted the City of Grand Prairie the right to sell 127 acres of the 193 acres in order that the city could build a new airport south of the current location. The remaining 66 acres used by the 149th was eventually sold and the 149th moved to the Dallas Naval Air Station (formerly Hensely Field) in 1976. The Old Grand Prairie Airport served the area well from its inception in 1930 until its closing in 1976. The early flying schools, the private operators, the operation of a flight training facility by the U.S. Navy during World War II, the home of the 149th Aviation Battalion of the Texas National Guard from 1954 to 1976, the presence of the Civil Air Patrol, a glider operation, and for a time the airport serving as the Grand Prairie Municipal Airport, all helped to contribute to the growth and development of Grand Prairie and to the defense of the country.

Today, there is no trace of the airport. Industrial developments, private businesses, and city and government buildings now cover the grounds of the old airport. Only memories remain with those who are still around to remember what occurred there. The Old Grand Prairie Airport is a part of the history of Grand Prairie, as are the thousands of individuals who participated in its existence.

[John Dolva]

William, The use of more than three fontstyles in a presentation makes the reading of it more difficult. I thinkyou've got about 7 there. I'm sure you're saying something worth hearing, but that sort of formatting is a visual asault of sorts. I as no doubt others tend to speed read and have limited time, to also have to figure out which bits are your and what ponts you are trying to make,...... it's just a fundamental in textual information dissemination.

[David G. Healy]

William, The use of more than three fontstyles in a presentation makes the reading of it more difficult. I thinkyou've got about 7 there. I'm sure you're saying something worth hearing, but that sort of formatting is a visual asault of sorts. I as no doubt others tend to speed read and have limited time, to also have to figure out which bits are your and what ponts you are trying to make,...... it's just a fundamental in textual information dissemination.

John,

You're here 24/7, so I, and others I suspect, figure you have plenty of time (speed read or not).... so sort it out - or simply don't follow the Kelly threads.... if you've been following Bill Kelly's work, you'll of noticed what he's doing... perhaps you need to go back to basic JFK 101 & the WCR (and what it lacks).

Ya want the mod job, just ask. Probably why Wild Bill Miller is back.... ROTFLMFAO!

Edited March 7, 2010 by David G. Healy

[Greg Burnham]

english a second language for ya, there Wild Bill? What can you fathom out of the term "Doug Horne"s 5 volume set"? It all comes down to faith there Wild Bill, in your case faith in the WCR.... we understand why it's so difficult to defend it! FAITH is your only excuse!

Is that it, David? For some reason I have the feeling you haven't read what you've referenced any more than you have read any of my post over the years which clearly show that I disagreed with the Warren Commission findings. In fact, I think from reading your responses over the years that you probably haven't read much of anything on the JFK assassination unless it was scribbled on the wall next to a urinal in a drunk tank.

Bill Miller

So we meet again. That was quite an intelligent and helpful reply, Bill. I suppose you're especially proud of the maturity you displayed in the part of your post where you mention a "urinal" -- a very class act.

I thought you had to have a biographical page here?

[Craig Lamson]

english a second language for ya, there Wild Bill? What can you fathom out of the term "Doug Horne"s 5 volume set"? It all comes down to faith there Wild Bill, in your case faith in the WCR.... we understand why it's so difficult to defend it! FAITH is your only excuse!

Is that it, David? For some reason I have the feeling you haven't read what you've referenced any more than you have read any of my post over the years which clearly show that I disagreed with the Warren Commission findings. In fact, I think from reading your responses over the years that you probably haven't read much of anything on the JFK assassination unless it was scribbled on the wall next to a urinal in a drunk tank.

Bill Miller

So we meet again. That was quite an intelligent and helpful reply, Bill. I suppose you're especially proud of the maturity you displayed in the part of your post where you mention a "urinal" -- a very class act.

I thought you had to have a biographical page here?

Ever the guard dog I see...have you forgotten your are not in OZ..er...the JFKresearch forum anymore?

IN any case it appears in the rush to be the Sergeant at Arms once again your must have missed this...

"I am Bill Miller, a long time researcher of the Kennedy assassination. My main interest are in the realm of the photographic record and the witnesses statements and testimonies. I have studied the case for over 25 years and I have received the Mary Ferrell Award presented for the discovery of new evidence in the JFK assassination murder case."