Doug Horne

[Peter Fokes]

So now you tell me that the guy in charge of the CIA's NPIC lab didn't know what he was talking about, that there is no secret CIA lab at Rochester called "Hawkeye Works" that they only make equipment there even though the very word was still classified in 1992, and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, but now I've got a place - Hawkeye Works at Kokak in Rochester, New York, where the head of the CIA NPIC lab says the Zapruder film came from, and I'm interested because it gives me a place I can investigate and people I can question, and maybe new documents that will tell me what the Zapruder film was doing there, if it can be confirmed that it in fact was there the weekend of the assassination, when it wasn't supposed to be there according to the chain of possession - the provenance of the evidence - the film.

And there we have Kodak, who made the film Zapruder used, Itek, who later evaluated the Zapruder film - Lockheed - (and thanks for mentioning that), who made the U2 and hired Gary Powers to fly it and gave him the same exact military ID card that Oswald had on him when arrested.

Oh, and also in the mix is Curtis LeMay's Strategic Air Command (SAC) whose cover named "Test Squadron" picks up the satellite film in mid-air and delivers it to - the secret CIA lab at Rochester New York that they call the "Hawkeye Works," to be developed, before being evaluated by the DOD and CIA. Oh, yea, then they put captions on the photos, captions that were placed on the photos at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval in Dallas, where Oswald worked at one time.

So now I'm wasting my time even considering these things?

And what have I made up my mind about? That there's a new question worth answering?

Was the Zapruder film at Kodak's Hawkeye Works the weekend of the assassination?

Doug Horne just asked the question and filed a FOIA request to answer it, and doesn't even mention the word Corona or any of the other stuff that I added on my own.

And this is only one section of one chapter of Horne's book(s), and if any of the other issues that he brings to the table pans has an equal amout of information with new places, new witnesses and possibly new documents, then we're going to be very busy for quite awhile debunking all the new leads before they pan out.

Now I'm being told that the secret CIA lab doesn't exist, that they only make tourist cameras there, McMahon's mind is faulty and he was mistaken, and since I don't know anythnig about the technical side of film, that I should just be resigned to the fact that I'm wasting my time and go back to reviewing Fetzer's books.

Okay,

Bill Kelly

Hi Bill,

During WW II, military film was processed at the Kodak color-processing laboratory in Rochester.

<quote on>

Not long after Pearl Harbor, during the hectic first months of was in 1942, Harry Kerr would get a call to go to the personnel office in Building 5 at Kodak Park.

A military agent - sometimes in uniform, sometimes not - would be waiting there with a package. He would hand it to Kerr, who would sign for it and then head back to the Kodak color-processing laboratory where he worked.

The package contained one or more rolls of Kodacolor film, a brand new product. But these were no ordinary shots of family picnics or flower gardens or a favorite pet. They were from the military.

Kerr was not the only employee authorized to process military film, but once a roll of film was turned over to him, he was the only one who was allowed to handle it from darkroom to processing.

"When it came to the point that the prints were coming off the processing machine, other people would have to leave the room for a couple of minutes," Kerr recalls, "so that I was the only one who saw them."

Kerr never knew for sure what the photographs depicted, because there was no printed description with them. But he could see naval vessels, ground troops, and occasionally landing craft. And lots of pictures of "brass" - military officers.

...

Sgt. Nat Valone, paralyzed in one leg after a sniper's bullet hit him in the spine in France, was hospitalized for six months, came back to Rochester and found work at Kodak's Hawk-Eye Works mounting lenses for military cameras.

<quote off>

Arsenal of Freedom,

Part Two,

Rochester War Plant Workers During WW II,

Rochester History, edited by Ruth Rosenberg-Naparsteck, City Historian

Vol LXVI, Spring 2004, No. 2

Of course, this article is describing activities two decades before the assassination. Top-secret processing was done at the Kodak facilities in Rochester. If you are researching whether or not top-secret processing was done at Kodak facilities in Rochester consider the possibility that the name Hawk-Eye Works was tossed out simply because the actual lab was "secret" and did not have a public name. In any case, there was a tradition of the military using Kodak facilities in Rochester for "top-secret" processing.

Cheers

Peter Fokes

[Peter Fokes]

Now if someone could find a copy of Lifton's "Pig on a Leash" it would help.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...ton&f=false

Thanks Michael,

The Great Zapruder Film Hoax.

How come I missed this?

Ah, yes, now I remember, I got to the part about me and John Judge meeting Don Norton at University of Dayton, but here its says here it was in Toledo, a minor mistake, but still one that should be corrected.

Was David Lifton's article "Pig on a Leash" published anywhere else before or after TGZFH?

Is it available on line in full, rather than in this version, which is missing half its pages?

I take it that the references to the Hawkeye Works is on p. 387 and 388 but 388 is missing.

Can someone copy these pages and references and post them?

Someone should also copy the entire article and post it if it to be part of the record, even if only a footnote.

It should be called a biography of Bob Groden.

And hey, the pig was real, it wasn't fake.

Bill Kelly

Zavada responded to TGZFH. See here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

He mentions Horne several times.

Cheers

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

[Bernice Moore]

Doug Horne's new 5 Volume Book Now Ready for Shipping............

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

go to archived shows, see 2009 for dougs show on thursday..b

doug horne on black op...http://www.blackopradio.com/

http://www.blackopradio.com/

b...

[David G. Healy]

Now if someone could find a copy of Lifton's "Pig on a Leash" it would help.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...ton&f=false

Thanks Michael,

The Great Zapruder Film Hoax.

How come I missed this?

Ah, yes, now I remember, I got to the part about me and John Judge meeting Don Norton at University of Dayton, but here its says here it was in Toledo, a minor mistake, but still one that should be corrected.

Was David Lifton's article "Pig on a Leash" published anywhere else before or after TGZFH?

Is it available on line in full, rather than in this version, which is missing half its pages?

I take it that the references to the Hawkeye Works is on p. 387 and 388 but 388 is missing.

Can someone copy these pages and references and post them?

Someone should also copy the entire article and post it if it to be part of the record, even if only a footnote.

It should be called a biography of Bob Groden.

And hey, the pig was real, it wasn't fake.

Bill Kelly

Zavada responded to TGZFH. See here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

He mentions Horne several times.

Cheers

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

for those that want a bit more in-depth discussion concerning Zavada (Thompson, and the rest of the nutter-xxxxx gang of 8) re TGZFH see below:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...ax/lifton1.html

whomever Zavada mentions or doesn't NOT mention, take with a grain of salt.....

[Len Colby]

Zavada responded to TGZFH. See here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

He mentions Horne several times.

Cheers

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

for those that want a bit more in-depth discussion concerning Zavada (Thompson, and the rest of the nutter-xxxxx gang of 8) re TGZFH see below:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...ax/lifton1.html

whomever Zavada mentions or doesn't NOT mention, take with a grain of salt.....

Note that Costella failed to refute Zavada's conclusion that for technical reasons the film he examined was an "in camera original" and note a duplicate (copy)

[Len Colby]

I agree with you that Bill NORMALLY is a "even handed, listen-to-all -sides JFK researcher" but in this case his attitude seems to be "I've made upmy mind don't confuse me with the facts" He:

- Cites an unsubstantiated decades after the fact 3rd hand report, Horne claimed McMahon told him Smith said the film came from Rochester, as established fact, even though McMahon's assistant didn't remember being told this.

- Keeps referring to "Hawkeye Works" as a secret lab despite being repeatedly told it was part of the equipment division, this calls in to question his ability to pay attention and the reliability of his sources.

- Keeps harping on the fact that Kodak could process 70mm b & w negative film as evidence they developed 16mm color positive Kodakchrome

- Displays complete ignorance of photographic and intelligence matters claiming Kodak couldn't produce blow ups at their HQ thus had to send it to the NPIC. Actually he gets that backwards the CIA farmed out work to Kodak it couldn't due on its own. His claim would be akin to saying Lockheed had to have the CIA and USAF fly U2's for them because they didn't have the capacity to do so in house

Okay,

I'll back up and review the facts.

The one fact that is established is that there is a place called "Hawkeye Works" just as McMahon said, and it is a secret CIA lab and not just a place where they make Hawkeye cameras, just like the "Skunk Works" isn't a place they make skunks, but the U2.

Sorry Bill it’s NOT a “fact that is established is that…"Hawkeye Works"… is a secret CIA lab”. Correct me if I wrong but I believe the incorrect use of the name originated with Lifton. He never worked in the photo industry and thus there is no reason to expect he knew what he was talking about. Rollie Zavada was a product engineer with Kodak’s film division for several decades. Obviously the film and processing divisions worked closely together. Thus he is an authoritative source. He said he never heard of a lab called Hawkeye. Get back to me when you have evidence other than an unsourced claim from Lifton that this was the name. Your analogy doesn’t hold because

1) it makes no sense to assume the division that made chintzy tourist cameras also developed “above top secret” 70mm mylar spy satellite B & W negative film or that if they did they could also develop consumer 16 mm color Kodakchrome positive film.

2) Kodak made Hawkeyes but Lockheed didn’t make skunks

3) During the period the name was secret Lockheed didn’t have a publicly known division called “Skunk Works”

Over ten years ago, McMahon said the word "Hawkeye Works" as the place the man who brought the Zapruder film into his secret CIA NPIC lab said he came from, but the CIA made Doug Horne take the word out of the transcript because it was classified.

Horne claims McMahon used the codeword for Rochester but in the accounts I’ve seen he doesn’t mention the name. Do you really think the CIA codeword for the Kodak lab in Rochester that developed reconnaissance photos was “Hawkeye Works”? Wouldn’t that be a little too obvious like if Boeing had a “secret plant” called “707 Works” or if they called the secret Lockheed plant “Constellation Works” ?(the Constellation was a well known jetliner they made 1943 -58).

Horne claims this is on tape has anyone besides him heard the tape or at least seen a transcript?

Kodak's Hawkeye Works was in operation for decades before the CIA began using the term, similar to the Skunk Works, also once a highly classified place where they built the U2 and the rocket used to launch Corona.

Skunk Works worked on top secret military projects since its inception in 1943.

So now you tell me that the guy in charge of the CIA's NPIC lab didn't know what he was talking about,

Actually the guy in charge of the color lab which even he admitted was only a minor part of the operation. Since AFAIK the satellites and U-2’s didn’t shoot color film at the time he would have no reason to know the code word for the lab (show me any color aerial recon photos taken during JFK’s lifetime) which developed B & W film. He should also have known that such a lab couldn’t develop Kodakchrome. Not that even according to Peter Folkes account (during WWII at least) color print (negative) film was processed on a normal production line

that there is no secret CIA lab at Rochester called "Hawkeye Works"

Yes

that they only make equipment there

Right again or perhaps made since I think it was closed

even though the very word was still classified in 1992,

Actually it’s been known publicly since at least 1921

http://books.google.com/books?id=ag0LAAAAI...3NSeCw&cd=2

and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Right again

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything,

Of course you are.

"but now I've got a place - Hawkeye Works at Kokak in Rochester, New York, where the head of the CIA NPIC lab says the Zapruder film came from,"

See above

"And there we have Kodak, who made the film Zapruder used, Itek, who later evaluated the Zapruder film"

Yes over a dozen years after the assassination

"- Lockheed - (and thanks for mentioning that), who made the U2 and hired Gary Powers to fly it and gave him the same exact military ID card that Oswald had on him when arrested."

Citation

"So now I'm wasting my time even considering these things?"

Beats me!

"Was the Zapruder film at Kodak's Hawkeye Works the weekend of the assassination?"

No, it wasn’t even at the Kodakchrome plant in Rochester let alone the plant that processed satellite film which couldn’t have developed it. Several people saw the film get developed, then get duped, and then the dupes developed all in Dallas

"Doug Horne just asked the question and filed a FOIA request to answer it, and doesn't even mention the word Corona or any of the other stuff that I added on my own."

And this is only one section of one chapter of Horne's book(s), and if any of the other issues that he brings to the table pans has an equal amout of information with new places, new witnesses and possibly new documents, then we're going to be very busy for quite awhile debunking all the new leads before they pan out.

If Horne is so misinformed that he thinks Hawkeye Works was a lab and didn’t know about the 2nd Zavada report and puts so much faith in one man’s uncorroborated decades old memory of what he was told I wouldn’t put much faith in his book at least regarding the Z-film. It is more likely to be a source of red herrings than useful information.

"Now I'm being told that the secret CIA lab doesn't exist, "

Wrong

"that they only make tourist cameras there,"

Made

"McMahon's mind is faulty and he was mistaken,"

Could well be the case since his account is at variance with his assistant’s and a boss’s, I'm not even convinced he used the term 'Hawkeye'

"and since I don't know anythnig about the technical side of film, that I should just be resigned to the fact that I'm wasting my time and go back to reviewing Fetzer's books."

Some basic technical knowledge would be very helpful, you’re a smart guy –school yourself.

[Len Colby]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

[Craig Lamson]

Now if someone could find a copy of Lifton's "Pig on a Leash" it would help.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...ton&f=false

Thanks Michael,

The Great Zapruder Film Hoax.

How come I missed this?

Ah, yes, now I remember, I got to the part about me and John Judge meeting Don Norton at University of Dayton, but here its says here it was in Toledo, a minor mistake, but still one that should be corrected.

Was David Lifton's article "Pig on a Leash" published anywhere else before or after TGZFH?

Is it available on line in full, rather than in this version, which is missing half its pages?

I take it that the references to the Hawkeye Works is on p. 387 and 388 but 388 is missing.

Can someone copy these pages and references and post them?

Someone should also copy the entire article and post it if it to be part of the record, even if only a footnote.

It should be called a biography of Bob Groden.

And hey, the pig was real, it wasn't fake.

Bill Kelly

Zavada responded to TGZFH. See here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

He mentions Horne several times.

Cheers

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

for those that want a bit more in-depth discussion concerning Zavada (Thompson, and the rest of the nutter-xxxxx gang of 8) re TGZFH see below:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...ax/lifton1.html

whomever Zavada mentions or doesn't NOT mention, take with a grain of salt.....

While reading it be sure to consider the intellectual honesty, or rather lack thereof, of the author...

www.craiglamson.com/costella.htm

www.craiglamson.com/costella2.htm

[Michael Hogan]

Doug Horne's presentation on Len Osanic's Black Op Radio show was riveting.

Many very good writers and researchers don't translate so well when they are speaking. Horne is certainly an exception.

[Craig Lamson]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

What a secret phrase! HAWKEYE WORKS! From Kodak's own online history...also note there are photos available showing the "top secret" Hawkeye Works LOL!

"1956 - KODAK VERICHROME Pan Film was introduced, a black-and-white film that replaced the popular KODAK VERICHROME Film launched in 1931. ♦ Tennessee Eastman introduced VEREL Fiber for use in rugs, draperies and other household furnishings. ♦ Kodak formed the Apparatus and Optical Division, which included the Camera Works and the Hawk-Eye Works in Rochester."

Another point to consider is that unless the "secret lab" was running Kodachrome film for the CIA on a DAILY basis, chances are very high this "secret CIA Lab" did NOT run the Kodachrome film. WHY? Because large cine film processors do not do well with inactivity. Chemistry needs to be used and eplenished by regular activity to keep color and density plots correct.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Craig Lamson

[Dean Hagerman]

Do NOT miss this interview with Doug Horne here, nor to get all five of Horne's volumes immediately. The (official version) LN thesis [fantasy] can now be laid to rest, as was our President, polity and constitutional democracy on 11.22.63.

It is not a question of whether or not the USA was overthrown, but what we are now going to DO about it.....men or mice? And dismiss any idea that the overthrow was temporary - it continues still...everything from then to now - EVERYTHING is synthetic history; synthetic terror [by us!]. I'll stake my life on that....and have...more than most of you will ever know....

I only have two more weeks to wait

I am going to rip into these volumes with a fury

You better get ready Craig

Edited December 12, 2009 by Dean Hagerman

[William Kelly]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

As for the recorded interview with McMahon, they wouldn't let him record most interviews or even let him talk to some of the lab technicians who were then still alive but are now dead.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far.

Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Bill Kelly

Edited December 12, 2009 by William Kelly

[Craig Lamson]

Do NOT miss this interview with Doug Horne here, nor to get all five of Horne's volumes immediately. The (official version) LN thesis [fantasy] can now be laid to rest, as was our President, polity and constitutional democracy on 11.22.63.

It is not a question of whether or not the USA was overthrown, but what we are now going to DO about it.....men or mice? And dismiss any idea that the overthrow was temporary - it continues still...everything from then to now - EVERYTHING is synthetic history; synthetic terror [by us!]. I'll stake my life on that....and have...more than most of you will ever know....

I only have two more weeks to wait

I am going to rip into these volumes with a fury

You better get ready Craig

Ready for what exactly Dean?

[Craig Lamson]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

As for the recorded interview with McMahon, they wouldn't let him record most interviews or even let him talk to some of the lab technicians who were then still alive but are now dead.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far.

Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Bill Kelly

Poor Bill, wanting to talk about intellectual honesty and then to post such blatantly dishonest stuff like this. You sound SO desperate!

"And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart. "

Please show me exactly where I have tried to tear "the book apart"? I've simply made comments on the published excerpts, which I should remind you that YOU posted. I've also commented on the blatant and very silly speculation contained in these excerpts and utttered by an ignorant Bill Kelly.

I sure can understand Kelly's desperation. He is claiming that Hawkeye Works is some super duper, state of the art CIA lab whose name must be scrubbed from existance, and here we find that Eastman Kodak published the name Hawkeye Works on thier company website! And photos exist of the Hawkeye Works in Rochester!

Super Secret? Now thats funny!

Please keep it up Bill, the entertainmnet value you provide is priceless!

[David G. Healy]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

As for the recorded interview with McMahon, they wouldn't let him record most interviews or even let him talk to some of the lab technicians who were then still alive but are now dead.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far.

Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Bill Kelly

Poor Bill, wanting to talk about intellectual honesty and then to post such blatantly dishonest stuff like this. You sound SO desperate!

"And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart. "

Please show me exactly where I have tried to tear "the book apart"? I've simply made comments on the published excerpts, which I should remind you that YOU posted. I've also commented on the blatant and very silly speculation contained in these excerpts and utttered by an ignorant Bill Kelly.

I sure can understand Kelly's desperation. He is claiming that Hawkeye Works is some super duper, state of the art CIA lab whose name must be scrubbed from existance, and here we find that Eastman Kodak published the name Hawkeye Works on thier company website! And photos exist of the Hawkeye Works in Rochester!

Super Secret? Now thats funny!

Please keep it up Bill, the entertainmnet value you provide is priceless!

Running from Horne, are we? How lone-nut xxxxx utterish! Keep that WCR faith, the only thing the trolls have left... LMFAO!