Doug Horne

[Craig Lamson]

Running from Horne, are we? How lone-nut xxxxx utterish! Keep that WCR faith, the only thing the trolls have left... LMFAO!

Run? Not in your life, I'm still here davie, and I'm not going anywhere. It's way too much fun watching all the spin and back peddling. You smucks appear to believe anything as long as it fits your worldview.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Craig Lamson

[David G. Healy]

Zavada responded to TGZFH. See here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zapho...comments-r1.pdf

He mentions Horne several times.

Cheers

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

for those that want a bit more in-depth discussion concerning Zavada (Thompson, and the rest of the nutter-xxxxx gang of 8) re TGZFH see below:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...ax/lifton1.html

whomever Zavada mentions or doesn't NOT mention, take with a grain of salt.....

Note that Costella failed to refute Zavada's conclusion that for technical reasons the film he examined was an "in camera original" and note a duplicate (copy)

yeah sure, Len.... Zavada was refused access/or test the Zapruder B&H414 double 8mm camera which he requested it for testing (as a result, his formal study were based on 4 other *wind-up* B&H414 film cameras), now you're trying to tell us Zavada was given access tothe in-camera Zapruder film in-camera film original to review, when he couldn't even touch the Zapruder camera? Did he do any forensic testing on the Z-film, Len? Oh, and btw, was he, Zavada charged with determining Zapruder film content? Lots of curious minds out here

Man-o-man, Doug Horne has you guys running on circles these day's....Ya need a new day job there Len..... Redd Foxx won't be happy...

Edited December 12, 2009 by David G. Healy

[Dean Hagerman]

Do NOT miss this interview with Doug Horne here, nor to get all five of Horne's volumes immediately. The (official version) LN thesis [fantasy] can now be laid to rest, as was our President, polity and constitutional democracy on 11.22.63.

It is not a question of whether or not the USA was overthrown, but what we are now going to DO about it.....men or mice? And dismiss any idea that the overthrow was temporary - it continues still...everything from then to now - EVERYTHING is synthetic history; synthetic terror [by us!]. I'll stake my life on that....and have...more than most of you will ever know....

I only have two more weeks to wait

I am going to rip into these volumes with a fury

You better get ready Craig

Ready for what exactly Dean?

For some more hard data of Zapruder film alteration, which somehow you seemed to miss in TGZFH

[Craig Lamson]

Do NOT miss this interview with Doug Horne here, nor to get all five of Horne's volumes immediately. The (official version) LN thesis [fantasy] can now be laid to rest, as was our President, polity and constitutional democracy on 11.22.63.

It is not a question of whether or not the USA was overthrown, but what we are now going to DO about it.....men or mice? And dismiss any idea that the overthrow was temporary - it continues still...everything from then to now - EVERYTHING is synthetic history; synthetic terror [by us!]. I'll stake my life on that....and have...more than most of you will ever know....

I only have two more weeks to wait

I am going to rip into these volumes with a fury

You better get ready Craig

Ready for what exactly Dean?

For some more hard data of Zapruder film alteration, which somehow you seemed to miss in TGZFH

Ok, which brings us back to the question of your ability to understand that "hard data" in the first place. So far you are batting zero and I'm not expecting any improvement in the near or long term.

[William Kelly]

So now you tell me that the guy in charge of the CIA's NPIC lab didn't know what he was talking about, that there is no secret CIA lab at Rochester called "Hawkeye Works" that they only make equipment there even though the very word was still classified in 1992, and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, but now I've got a place - Hawkeye Works at Kokak in Rochester, New York, where the head of the CIA NPIC lab says the Zapruder film came from, and I'm interested because it gives me a place I can investigate and people I can question, and maybe new documents that will tell me what the Zapruder film was doing there, if it can be confirmed that it in fact was there the weekend of the assassination, when it wasn't supposed to be there according to the chain of possession - the provenance of the evidence - the film.

And there we have Kodak, who made the film Zapruder used, Itek, who later evaluated the Zapruder film - Lockheed - (and thanks for mentioning that), who made the U2 and hired Gary Powers to fly it and gave him the same exact military ID card that Oswald had on him when arrested.

Oh, and also in the mix is Curtis LeMay's Strategic Air Command (SAC) whose cover named "Test Squadron" picks up the satellite film in mid-air and delivers it to - the secret CIA lab at Rochester New York that they call the "Hawkeye Works," to be developed, before being evaluated by the DOD and CIA. Oh, yea, then they put captions on the photos, captions that were placed on the photos at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval in Dallas, where Oswald worked at one time.

So now I'm wasting my time even considering these things?

And what have I made up my mind about? That there's a new question worth answering?

Was the Zapruder film at Kodak's Hawkeye Works the weekend of the assassination?

Doug Horne just asked the question and filed a FOIA request to answer it, and doesn't even mention the word Corona or any of the other stuff that I added on my own.

And this is only one section of one chapter of Horne's book(s), and if any of the other issues that he brings to the table pans has an equal amout of information with new places, new witnesses and possibly new documents, then we're going to be very busy for quite awhile debunking all the new leads before they pan out.

Now I'm being told that the secret CIA lab doesn't exist, that they only make tourist cameras there, McMahon's mind is faulty and he was mistaken, and since I don't know anythnig about the technical side of film, that I should just be resigned to the fact that I'm wasting my time and go back to reviewing Fetzer's books.

Okay,

Bill Kelly

Hi Bill,

During WW II, military film was processed at the Kodak color-processing laboratory in Rochester.

<quote on>

Not long after Pearl Harbor, during the hectic first months of was in 1942, Harry Kerr would get a call to go to the personnel office in Building 5 at Kodak Park.

A military agent - sometimes in uniform, sometimes not - would be waiting there with a package. He would hand it to Kerr, who would sign for it and then head back to the Kodak color-processing laboratory where he worked.

The package contained one or more rolls of Kodacolor film, a brand new product. But these were no ordinary shots of family picnics or flower gardens or a favorite pet. They were from the military.

Kerr was not the only employee authorized to process military film, but once a roll of film was turned over to him, he was the only one who was allowed to handle it from darkroom to processing.

"When it came to the point that the prints were coming off the processing machine, other people would have to leave the room for a couple of minutes," Kerr recalls, "so that I was the only one who saw them."

Kerr never knew for sure what the photographs depicted, because there was no printed description with them. But he could see naval vessels, ground troops, and occasionally landing craft. And lots of pictures of "brass" - military officers.

...

Sgt. Nat Valone, paralyzed in one leg after a sniper's bullet hit him in the spine in France, was hospitalized for six months, came back to Rochester and found work at Kodak's Hawk-Eye Works mounting lenses for military cameras.

<quote off>

Arsenal of Freedom,

Part Two,

Rochester War Plant Workers During WW II,

Rochester History, edited by Ruth Rosenberg-Naparsteck, City Historian

Vol LXVI, Spring 2004, No. 2

Of course, this article is describing activities two decades before the assassination. Top-secret processing was done at the Kodak facilities in Rochester. If you are researching whether or not top-secret processing was done at Kodak facilities in Rochester consider the possibility that the name Hawk-Eye Works was tossed out simply because the actual lab was "secret" and did not have a public name. In any case, there was a tradition of the military using Kodak facilities in Rochester for "top-secret" processing.

Cheers

Peter Fokes

Thanks Peter,

There's actually a book published on the history of Kodak, and I'm trying to get the author to answer some questions, and maybe even join the forum to answer questions.

It appears that Kodak was very patriotic in their support of national goals, I just hope they kept good records, but for some reason, I don't think they did, but I'm confident somebody did.

While your article describes activities two decades before the assassination, and we now have a more accurate idea of what happened just previous to, during and just after the assassination, I think it significant that Kodak had a long term relationship with the covert side of the government for decades, that they were major players in the development of the U2, spy satellites and NRO - as a secret multi-billion dollar secret institution with no oversight of its activities or expenses, and that Kodak got their first big contract with Jim Webb/NASA in mid-Decembe 1964, just weeks after the assassination.

If we suspect that the murder of the president had something to do with the F-111 General Dynamics contract, which was open to the public, then why shouldn't we be suspicious of a Boeing-Kodak NASA deal within weeks of the assassination, when you would think that all such deals would be put on hold until after the wake.

And the only reason the "Hawkeye Works" name as a classified site was still classified decades later is because Kodak - Lockheed - ITEK and Raython - I know nothing at all about Rathon other than they were part of the new deal - but these defense contractors got the multi-billion dollar spy in the sky deal from DOD in the 1990s, around the same time that they just started declassifying the Corona photos.

And I'm sure that if you look into the history of these companies - the defense contractors that Ike warned us about -THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX - you will find - RAND - General Dynamics - Lockheed - Collins Radio - Itek - Kodak - Bell Hell - and they all have something in common - other than what happened at Dealey Plaza, the U2 and Corona - they are the entities - outside of the government - and thus unanswerable to JFK Act or FOIA - who have the records of what really happened.

And, of course, you can't know what happened at Dealey Plaza unless you know this history, which is still being uncovered....and you can't judge what happened at DP until all the info is in....and it's coming on strong right now, and all the missing pieces are beginning to fall into place.

Those who have already made a judgement on who is guilty are left out in the cold and won't get it until they clear their heads.

BK

[Bernice Moore]

mike, paul, bill part of the parkland press conference dr.shaw re governor connally cameras microphones.etc.....b

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OyI0P6WYIY

Edited December 13, 2009 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

As for the recorded interview with McMahon, they wouldn't let him record most interviews or even let him talk to some of the lab technicians who were then still alive but are now dead.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far.

Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Bill Kelly

bill posted with david's permission..

From:

Subject: LIFTON 1999

To:

Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 3:48 AM

Subject: Re: Lifton embarasses himself (again)

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:21:19 GMT

From: dlifton@earthlink.net <http://ca.mc881.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dlifton@earthlink.net>

Organization: Deja..com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

TO ALL:

Clint Bradford was disinvited from a gathering of Southern California

researchers last year because of the same behavior he repeatedly shows in

his

posts.

As I have said before---and will say here again---there is a very top secret

lab connected with Kodak up in Rochester; the Zapruder film went there

(according to CIA officials interviewed by Doug Horne at the ARRB); and when

the CIA found out that the existence of this lab was revealed in the ARRB

interviews, they insisted that the ARRB redact the tape, so as to eliminate

this information.

When Doug Horne requested that there be followup at Rochester to find out

whether the Z film went to the lab in question (which I have called "Eagle

Eye" so as not to be in technical violation of any security law), it was

made

clear to Horne that his job was on the line.

BRADford repeatedly lies in his posts by mistating the facts about all this.

So, in this area at least, both is website and his posts are nothing but a

source of disinformation for the gullible.

This is exactly whsy he was disinvited from the group meeting---re the

Zapruder film---at Noel Twyman's home last year.

I seriously doubt that Bradford is anything more than a lone nutter in drag.

But in event, when it comes to the Zapruder film, he's just a plain xxxx.

I'm not saying anyone should believe the Zapruder film went to a top secret

facility because I say so. I'm saying they should believe it to a high

probability because the CIA officials involved said so.

Bradford's attempt to obfuscate this situation is pretty pathetic.

David Lifton

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

b

Edited December 13, 2009 by Bernice Moore

[Len Colby]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

- Incorrect he said “…I can attest that in each case my written interview or call reports were reviewed by accuracy by others on the AARB staff who were present at each event and corrected as necessary by a peer review process” (pg236) and makes no mention of his notes supposedly being edited. He showed no qualms about insinuating Josiah “Tink” Thompson, Rollie Zavada and Jeremy Gunn (AARB’s chief council) were dishonest and backed all manners of bizarre claims why would fail to mention his notes had been censored?

- He did however claim that he had to erase the “code name” from the publicly released copy of the tape but that the “unredacted” original is held “JFK Records Collection" (pg 238). This is odd, if the CIA was so sensitive about the issue why not insist that all copies be edited. So I’m curious, has anyone besides Horne heard either mythical tape?

- Horne claimed McMahon “used the still current code name for the facility in Rochester” on page 238 but doesn’t mention the name “Hawkeye Plant” till page 273 and never says he got the name from McMahon. Rather on page 381 claimed he found it in “two open sources” and that "the presence of the Zapruder film at “the Hawkeye plant" was established by an impeccable witness (a former CIA employee) and the existence of the CIA Rochester lab has been verified by two former employees of the CIA who held very responsible positions at the NPIC during 1963.”

He of course never identified those open sources let alone the former CIA employees, if McMahon was one why didn’t Horne mention his name? (He had been cited repeatedly in earlier pages). Note also that he doesn’t attribute the name to the NPIC employees. No open sources on the Net other than those citing Lifton or Horne say the CIA code name of the lab was Hawkeye Works (or any variation thereof) a name which had very publicly been associated with company’s optics and cameras since at least 1907.

http://www.brownie-camera.com/hawkeye.shtml

- If the CIA wanted to obscure the fact that it was developing film at Kodak's Rochester HQ why would it use the name of well known division at Kodak's Rochester HQ? Wouldn't that be stupidly obvious?

-Why should we expect a lab that developed 70mm Mylar B & W negative film would be able to develop 16mm celluloid color positive Kodakchrome? Read about Kodachrome its developing process is very complex and unlike that of any other type of film.

-Since the CIA and NPIC rarely if ever used color movie film why would they have a lab set up to develop it? If they did use color movie film why wouldn't they use the much easier to develop Ektachrome?

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

Wonderful you’re comparing the guy to a Mafioso, however despite his supposed ‘omerta’ he was soon making all sorts of claims the CIA presumably didn’t want made. Lifton said Horne was “a strong supporter of my work” (TGZFH pg384) before being nominated to the AARB, funny you’d think if CIA had carefully vetted some one to do their bidding they would NOT have OKed “a strong supporter” of Lifton’s.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

1) I’m not “trying to tear apart” Horne’s book I’m only challenging some of your conclusions and his claims regarding the Z-film. I don’t even think HE said McMahon used the term “Hawkeye Works”. I think you conflated Lifton’s speculation that “the film (which if done as described, would be a composite of sorts) would then be sent out for processing (and to a Kodachrome plant, such as Hawkeyeworks)” with Horne’s claim McMahon used the super secret code word for the Kodak lab which developed stuff for the NPIC.

2) I actually have read all the applicable parts of Horne’s.

3) If what we are saying you easily be able to refute what we a re saying,for the most part you refuse to address it.

4) Why don’t we consider the “intellectual honesty” of Bill Kelly who cites uncorroborated 3rd hand reports as indisputable facts, makes all manner of false claims and refuses to discuss evidence which undermines his claims.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

Strawman since I’ve done none of the above and don’t think Craig has either

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far. Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

We’ll I’ve read all the pages ofhis book with the keywords McMahon, Rochester and Hawkeye and your claim that “he answers almost every objection objection that has been raised thus far” is complete nonsense.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Resorting to strawmen is a sign of desperation on your part. Neither Craig nor I have ever said that "Hawkeye Works" did exist, quite to the contrary we’ve pointed out to you that not did Kodak make Hawkeye cameras but the name Hawkeye Works division has been publicly known since atleast1921. Thus the notion that “Hawkeye Works” would be some sort of super-duper “code name” is completely stupid.

[William Kelly]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

- Incorrect he said "…I can attest that in each case my written interview or call reports were reviewed by accuracy by others on the AARB staff who were present at each event and corrected as necessary by a peer review process" (pg236) and makes no mention of his notes supposedly being edited. He showed no qualms about insinuating Josiah "Tink" Thompson, Rollie Zavada and Jeremy Gunn (AARB's chief council) were dishonest and backed all manners of bizarre claims why would fail to mention his notes had been censored?

- He did however claim that he had to erase the "code name" from the publicly released copy of the tape but that the "unredacted" original is held "JFK Records Collection" (pg 238). This is odd, if the CIA was so sensitive about the issue why not insist that all copies be edited. So I'm curious, has anyone besides Horne heard either mythical tape?

- Horne claimed McMahon "used the still current code name for the facility in Rochester" on page 238 but doesn't mention the name "Hawkeye Plant" till page 273 and never says he got the name from McMahon. Rather on page 381 claimed he found it in "two open sources" and that "the presence of the Zapruder film at "the Hawkeye plant" was established by an impeccable witness (a former CIA employee) and the existence of the CIA Rochester lab has been verified by two former employees of the CIA who held very responsible positions at the NPIC during 1963."

He of course never identified those open sources let alone the former CIA employees, if McMahon was one why didn't Horne mention his name? (He had been cited repeatedly in earlier pages). Note also that he doesn't attribute the name to the NPIC employees. No open sources on the Net other than those citing Lifton or Horne say the CIA code name of the lab was Hawkeye Works (or any variation thereof) a name which had very publicly been associated with company's optics and cameras since at least 1907.

http://www.brownie-camera.com/hawkeye.shtml

- If the CIA wanted to obscure the fact that it was developing film at Kodak's Rochester HQ why would it use the name of well known division at Kodak's Rochester HQ? Wouldn't that be stupidly obvious?

-Why should we expect a lab that developed 70mm Mylar B & W negative film would be able to develop 16mm celluloid color positive Kodakchrome? Read about Kodachrome its developing process is very complex and unlike that of any other type of film.

-Since the CIA and NPIC rarely if ever used color movie film why would they have a lab set up to develop it? If they did use color movie film why wouldn't they use the much easier to develop Ektachrome?

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

Wonderful you're comparing the guy to a Mafioso, however despite his supposed 'omerta' he was soon making all sorts of claims the CIA presumably didn't want made. Lifton said Horne was "a strong supporter of my work" (TGZFH pg384) before being nominated to the AARB, funny you'd think if CIA had carefully vetted some one to do their bidding they would NOT have OKed "a strong supporter" of Lifton's.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

1) I'm not "trying to tear apart" Horne's book I'm only challenging some of your conclusions and his claims regarding the Z-film. I don't even think HE said McMahon used the term "Hawkeye Works". I think you conflated Lifton's speculation that "the film (which if done as described, would be a composite of sorts) would then be sent out for processing (and to a Kodachrome plant, such as Hawkeyeworks)" with Horne's claim McMahon used the super secret code word for the Kodak lab which developed stuff for the NPIC.

2) I actually have read all the applicable parts of Horne's.

3) If what we are saying you easily be able to refute what we a re saying,for the most part you refuse to address it.

4) Why don't we consider the "intellectual honesty" of Bill Kelly who cites uncorroborated 3rd hand reports as indisputable facts, makes all manner of false claims and refuses to discuss evidence which undermines his claims.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

Strawman since I've done none of the above and don't think Craig has either

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far. Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

We'll I've read all the pages ofhis book with the keywords McMahon, Rochester and Hawkeye and your claim that "he answers almost every objection objection that has been raised thus far" is complete nonsense.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Resorting to strawmen is a sign of desperation on your part. Neither Craig nor I have ever said that "Hawkeye Works" did exist, quite to the contrary we've pointed out to you that not did Kodak make Hawkeye cameras but the name Hawkeye Works division has been publicly known since atleast1921. Thus the notion that "Hawkeye Works" would be some sort of super-duper "code name" is completely stupid.

If it wasn't for McMahon & Company who said they worked on a film that was brought to them from Rochester, using the inhouse code word for the CIA lab, then I wouldn't have checked into the history of Kodak and found that they do have a secret lab where they developed the Corona satellite photos.

Whatever they called that part of the Rochester plant - that is what I am interested in, and that's where I think the Zapruder film came from.

Now Lifton, after using the word "Hawkeye Works" in his Zapruder film conference talk:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&...fton&view=3

Has decided to call the place "Eagle Eye" so as not to violate any national security codes, Colby and anybody who wants to can close a blind eye to looking there, but

that's where you will find Kodak, Itek, Lockheed and the SAC all in bed together.

In addition, those who want to ignore the possibilty the Z-film was ever at a secret CIA lab in Rochester, New York, still have to deal with the other issues presented in Chapter 14, such as the fact that there were certifiably two different operations conducted at NPIC at two different times, using two different teams of techs - and both worked on what they said were "original" films, but described two different types of film, one of which was brought to the NPIC from the secret CIA lab at Rochester, with the delivery man using the "in house" code word for the place that is sill classified.

BK

[Len Colby]

If it wasn't for McMahon & Company who said they worked on a film that was brought to them from Rochester, using the inhouse code word for the CIA lab,

"McMahon & Company" ??? Wrong again according to Horne only MaMahon said this. The part about the code word is NOT in Horne's notes which he said were accurate and didn't indicate were censored. He said 3 other people were in the room but we don't hear from them.

then I wouldn't have checked into the history of Kodak and found that they do have a secret lab where they developed the Corona satellite photos.

Yes they had a secret lab, not called Hawkeye Works, that developed film totally different from Kodakchrome.No evidence has been produced that Kodak had a facility with the capacity to forge the Z-filmtothe contrary according to McMahon didn't even have the capability to make decent blowups. He also claimed that in the film he saw JFK was hit 6 - 8 times from 3 - 4 directions, so either 1) Horne's account is faulty 2) McMahon had a vivid imagination/bad memory or 3) he didn't see a forged version of the Z-film altered to make it appear JFK was shot 3 times from behind. Zappy's film WAS developed in Dallas,AFAIK no one disputes this.

Whatever they called that part of the Rochester plant - that is what I am interested in, and that's where I think the Zapruder film came from.

See above

In addition, those who want to ignore the possibilty the Z-film was ever at a secret CIA lab in Rochester, New York, still have to deal with the other issues presented in Chapter 14, such as the fact that there were certifiably two different operations conducted at NPIC at two different times, using two different teams of techs - and both worked on what they said were "original" films, but described two different types of film, one of which was brought to the NPIC from the secret CIA lab at Rochester, with the delivery man using the "in house" code word for the place that is sill classified.

Once again you conflate uncorroborated claims with fact, other than MaMahon's claim what evidence is there that the different teems worked on different films? As ray pointed out even IF "Smith" said the film came from Rochester he could have been mistaken.

[Dean Hagerman]

he didn't see a forged version of the Z-film altered to make it appear JFK was shot 3 times from behind.

He saw the "other film" Len

[William Kelly]

Doug Horne's later version of events is contradicted by his own notes of his interviews with MacMahon. No here in them was there any mention of Smith using a secret codeword for a secret lab only that they were developed at Kodak in Rochester.

The notes were published in TGZFH on pages 456 - 60

http://books.google.com/books?id=_YAWJka6j...;q=&f=false

Of course if Len Colby had read the book(s) he would know that the CIA ordered the removal of the word "Hawkeye Works" from the published notes and report that Horne filed, but it is still in the audio taped interview with McMahon, one of the few interviews the ARRB "allowed" Horne to record.

Horne, as a 20 year Navy veteran and a miliary records analysist who was investigated, certified and approved to read classified material, dutifully excised the word the CIA wanted to keep classified, and has maintained his status, - if he was in the Mafia, as "a Stand Up Guy."

As for the recorded interview with McMahon, they wouldn't let him record most interviews or even let him talk to some of the lab technicians who were then still alive but are now dead.

And do indeed consider the intellectual honesty of the writer, and compare that to what we know about Craig Lamson's intellectual honesty, as well as Colby, for writing all that junk without bothering to read the book they are trying to tear apart.

And also consider the intellectual honesty of those who claim Doug Horne is a pot head, is writing a book on UFOs and failed to conduct himself himself as a responsible, professional Senior Analysist of Military Records.

The best part of Horne's book is that he answers almost every objection that has been raised thus far.

Read the book, and then come back and try to argue.

And for those who don't want to follow the lead to "Hawkeye Works," at the Kodak plant in Rochester, New York, then just be happy knowing that there is no such place.

Bill Kelly

bill posted with david's permission..

From:

Subject: LIFTON 1999

To:

Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 3:48 AM

Subject: Re: Lifton embarasses himself (again)

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:21:19 GMT

From: dlifton@earthlink.net <http://ca.mc881.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dlifton@earthlink.net>

Organization: Deja..com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

TO ALL:

Clint Bradford was disinvited from a gathering of Southern California

researchers last year because of the same behavior he repeatedly shows in

his

posts.

As I have said before---and will say here again---there is a very top secret

lab connected with Kodak up in Rochester; the Zapruder film went there

(according to CIA officials interviewed by Doug Horne at the ARRB); and when

the CIA found out that the existence of this lab was revealed in the ARRB

interviews, they insisted that the ARRB redact the tape, so as to eliminate

this information.

When Doug Horne requested that there be followup at Rochester to find out

whether the Z film went to the lab in question (which I have called "Eagle

Eye" so as not to be in technical violation of any security law), it was

made

clear to Horne that his job was on the line.

BRADford repeatedly lies in his posts by mistating the facts about all this.

So, in this area at least, both is website and his posts are nothing but a

source of disinformation for the gullible.

This is exactly whsy he was disinvited from the group meeting---re the

Zapruder film---at Noel Twyman's home last year.

I seriously doubt that Bradford is anything more than a lone nutter in drag.

But in event, when it comes to the Zapruder film, he's just a plain xxxx.

I'm not saying anyone should believe the Zapruder film went to a top secret

facility because I say so. I'm saying they should believe it to a high

probability because the CIA officials involved said so.

Bradford's attempt to obfuscate this situation is pretty pathetic.

David Lifton

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

b

So now, after Doug Horne concealed its name after being threatened with a lloss of his job and security clearance, we have David Lifton calling it "Eagles Eye" rather than what he calls it in his conference talk, recorded here. If anyone has the time to go through them, I'd like to know which one of these segments has the reference to the "Hawkeye Works." My computer's audio is on the blink.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?source...l=en&tab=wv#

Thanks to David for pointing this out to me,

BK

[Len Colby]

bill posted with david's permission..

From:

Subject: LIFTON 1999

To:

Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 3:48 AM

Subject: Re: Lifton embarasses himself (again)

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:21:19 GMT

From: dlifton@earthlink.net <http://ca.mc881.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dlifton@earthlink.net>

Organization: Deja..com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

TO ALL:

Clint Bradford was disinvited from a gathering of Southern California researchers last year because of the same behavior he repeatedly shows in hisposts.

As I have said before---and will say here again---there is a very top secret

lab connected with Kodak up in Rochester; the Zapruder film went there

(according to CIA officials interviewed by Doug Horne at the ARRB); and when

the CIA found out that the existence of this lab was revealed in the ARRB

interviews, they insisted that the ARRB redact the tape, so as to eliminate

this information.

When Doug Horne requested that there be followup at Rochester to find out

whether the Z film went to the lab in question (which I have called "Eagle

Eye" so as not to be in technical violation of any security law), it was

made clear to Horne that his job was on the line.

BRADford repeatedly lies in his posts by mistating the facts about all this.

So, in this area at least, both is website and his posts are nothing but a

source of disinformation for the gullible.

This is exactly whsy he was disinvited from the group meeting---re the

Zapruder film---at Noel Twyman's home last year.

I seriously doubt that Bradford is anything more than a lone nutter in drag.

But in event, when it comes to the Zapruder film, he's just a plain xxxx.

I'm not saying anyone should believe the Zapruder film went to a top secret

facility because I say so. I'm saying they should believe it to a high

probability because the CIA officials involved said so.

Bradford's attempt to obfuscate this situation is pretty pathetic.

David Lifton

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

b

So now, after Doug Horne concealed its name after being threatened with a lloss of his job and security clearance,

Did he say this? In his book he said he "dutifully" erased the tape and never said that the name McMahon used was Hawkeye and said noting about "being threatened with a lloss of his job and security clearance"

I think the name McMahon used might actually have been Gambit (more on this to follow)

we have David Lifton calling it "Eagles Eye" rather than what he calls it in his conference talk, recorded here. If anyone has the time to go through them, I'd like to know which one of these segments has the reference to the "Hawkeye Works." My computer's audio is on the blink.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?source...l=en&tab=wv#

LOL you really think that proves something? Lifton could A) have beeen under the false impression he MIGHT have been " in technical violation of any security law" by saying Hawkeye making a joke or C) intentionally creating a false sense of drama.

The whole theory quite frankly is stupid,the CIA would not object to people disclosing they had a secret lab with Kodak just as long as you don't divulge the name even though it is a name closely associated with the company

So tell me this Bill,what would be the point of giving a super secret lab a codename if any one hearing it would be able to figure out where it was?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

he didn't see a forged version of the Z-film altered to make it appear JFK was shot 3 times from behind.

He saw the "other film" Len

By "other film" do you mean the forged Z-film? We know the original was developed in Dallas

[William Kelly]

bill posted with david's permission..

From:

Subject: LIFTON 1999

To:

Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 3:48 AM

Subject: Re: Lifton embarasses himself (again)

Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:21:19 GMT

From: dlifton@earthlink.net <http://ca.mc881.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dlifton@earthlink.net>

Organization: Deja..com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

TO ALL:

Clint Bradford was disinvited from a gathering of Southern California researchers last year because of the same behavior he repeatedly shows in hisposts.

As I have said before---and will say here again---there is a very top secret

lab connected with Kodak up in Rochester; the Zapruder film went there

(according to CIA officials interviewed by Doug Horne at the ARRB); and when

the CIA found out that the existence of this lab was revealed in the ARRB

interviews, they insisted that the ARRB redact the tape, so as to eliminate

this information.

When Doug Horne requested that there be followup at Rochester to find out

whether the Z film went to the lab in question (which I have called "Eagle

Eye" so as not to be in technical violation of any security law), it was

made clear to Horne that his job was on the line.

BRADford repeatedly lies in his posts by mistating the facts about all this.

So, in this area at least, both is website and his posts are nothing but a

source of disinformation for the gullible.

This is exactly whsy he was disinvited from the group meeting---re the

Zapruder film---at Noel Twyman's home last year.

I seriously doubt that Bradford is anything more than a lone nutter in drag.

But in event, when it comes to the Zapruder film, he's just a plain xxxx.

I'm not saying anyone should believe the Zapruder film went to a top secret

facility because I say so. I'm saying they should believe it to a high

probability because the CIA officials involved said so.

Bradford's attempt to obfuscate this situation is pretty pathetic.

David Lifton

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

b

So now, after Doug Horne concealed its name after being threatened with a lloss of his job and security clearance,

Did he say this? In his book he said he "dutifully" erased the tape and never said that the name McMahon used was Hawkeye and said noting about "being threatened with a lloss of his job and security clearance"

I think the name McMahon used might actually have been Gambit (more on this to follow)

we have David Lifton calling it "Eagles Eye" rather than what he calls it in his conference talk, recorded here. If anyone has the time to go through them, I'd like to know which one of these segments has the reference to the "Hawkeye Works." My computer's audio is on the blink.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?source...l=en&tab=wv#

LOL you really think that proves something? Lifton could A) have beeen under the false impression he MIGHT have been " in technical violation of any security law" by saying Hawkeye making a joke or C) intentionally creating a false sense of drama.

The whole theory quite frankly is stupid,the CIA would not object to people disclosing they had a secret lab with Kodak just as long as you don't divulge the name even though it is a name closely associated with the company

So tell me this Bill,what would be the point of giving a super secret lab a codename if any one hearing it would be able to figure out where it was?

Len,

It seems that you are the only one who is laughing or confused.

I don't know why they give code names to secret labs, or why they had two separate sessions at NPIC to enlarge frames, unless it was two different films, as they were described by those expert techs who worked on them.

And if the director of the CIA was the person for whom the first set of briefing boards were for, who did they make the second set of briefing boards for?

I'm the one asking the serious questions, you're the one who is laughing.

BK