Oswald's Military ID DD1173

[William Kelly]

In another thread, where I mentioned that Gary Powers had the same military ID on him when he was shot down over Russia as Oswald had on him when arrested, Colby asked for a citation. Well here it is:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/00-H.html

It is also discussed here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry176065

Jean Davison's ArchiveThe Horne Files. provided by Jean Davison. Info on Horne Files, LaFontaine Allegations 01 Summary of LaFontaine Allegations 02 Answering Allegation of No ...www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD.html - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

It also gives you a good idea of how Doug Horne thinks and writes as an analysist issuing a report. Clean, clear, concise.

None of this is mentioned in the book IARRB.

BK

Edited December 13, 2009 by William Kelly

[Len Colby]

It seems that such cards were issued to most (if not all) people who left the military, so what's the point?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uniforme...lient=firefox-a

From your own source:

# 7/Allegation: That Oswald was the only Marine in his unit to

receive the DD 1173 I.D. card.

Findings: Incorrect. The author sampled the military enlisted personnel

files of 11 additional Marine personnel (in addition to Lee Harvey Oswald)

in order to determine whether other Marines inside or outside of Oswald's

unit also received the DD 1173 I.D. card upon discharge from active duty.

Of the twelve total names sampled, seven (7) of the individuals contained

entries in their Marine personnel files which indicated that they received

the DD 1173 I.D. card; two (2) contained entries in their records

indicating that they received the DD Form 2MC (RES), or "red" I. D. card;

and three (3) of the records sampled contained entries in the

"administrative remarks" section which were not specific enough to

definitively determine what kind of I. D. Card was issued upon discharge

of the service member

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/06-H.html

I expect Fetzer, Healy, Tink and Horne were issued 1173's or similar cards.

[William Kelly]

It seems that such cards were issued to most (if not all) people who left the military, so what's the point?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uniforme...lient=firefox-a

From your own source:

# 7/Allegation: That Oswald was the only Marine in his unit to

receive the DD 1173 I.D. card.

Findings: Incorrect. The author sampled the military enlisted personnel

files of 11 additional Marine personnel (in addition to Lee Harvey Oswald)

in order to determine whether other Marines inside or outside of Oswald's

unit also received the DD 1173 I.D. card upon discharge from active duty.

Of the twelve total names sampled, seven (7) of the individuals contained

entries in their Marine personnel files which indicated that they received

the DD 1173 I.D. card; two (2) contained entries in their records

indicating that they received the DD Form 2MC (RES), or "red" I. D. card;

and three (3) of the records sampled contained entries in the

"administrative remarks" section which were not specific enough to

definitively determine what kind of I. D. Card was issued upon discharge

of the service member

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/06-H.html

I expect Fetzer, Healy, Tink and Horne were issued 1173's or similar cards.

Were they?

All I said was that when Oswald and Powers were captured they had on them the same Military ID card.

Now, like Jean Davision, you say it doesn't mean anything.

BK

[Len Colby]

It seems that such cards were issued to most (if not all) people who left the military, so what's the point?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uniforme...lient=firefox-a

From your own source:

# 7/Allegation: That Oswald was the only Marine in his unit to

receive the DD 1173 I.D. card.

Findings: Incorrect. The author sampled the military enlisted personnel

files of 11 additional Marine personnel (in addition to Lee Harvey Oswald)

in order to determine whether other Marines inside or outside of Oswald's

unit also received the DD 1173 I.D. card upon discharge from active duty.

Of the twelve total names sampled, seven (7) of the individuals contained

entries in their Marine personnel files which indicated that they received

the DD 1173 I.D. card; two (2) contained entries in their records

indicating that they received the DD Form 2MC (RES), or "red" I. D. card;

and three (3) of the records sampled contained entries in the

"administrative remarks" section which were not specific enough to

definitively determine what kind of I. D. Card was issued upon discharge

of the service member

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/06-H.html

I expect Fetzer, Healy, Tink and Horne were issued 1173's or similar cards.

Were they?

All I said was that when Oswald and Powers were captured they had on them the same Military ID card.

Now, like Jean Davision, you say it doesn't mean anything.

BK

Unless you can show that such cards weren't commonly issued to personnel discharged from the armed forces 1956 - 9 you've got nothing more than a mildly interesting footnote. YOU cited Davidson she said several other men in his unit got the same card. But now you doubt your own source! Got any evidence she is wrong?Try doing a Google search it seems that yes indeed such cards were common.

"All I said was that when Oswald and Powers were captured they had on them the same Military ID card. "

BS on the other thread you wrote,"That Gary Powers and LHO both had this card, and that means

nothing, stretches credulity."

[William Kelly]

It seems that such cards were issued to most (if not all) people who left the military, so what's the point?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Uniforme...lient=firefox-a

From your own source:

# 7/Allegation: That Oswald was the only Marine in his unit to

receive the DD 1173 I.D. card.

Findings: Incorrect. The author sampled the military enlisted personnel

files of 11 additional Marine personnel (in addition to Lee Harvey Oswald)

in order to determine whether other Marines inside or outside of Oswald's

unit also received the DD 1173 I.D. card upon discharge from active duty.

Of the twelve total names sampled, seven (7) of the individuals contained

entries in their Marine personnel files which indicated that they received

the DD 1173 I.D. card; two (2) contained entries in their records

indicating that they received the DD Form 2MC (RES), or "red" I. D. card;

and three (3) of the records sampled contained entries in the

"administrative remarks" section which were not specific enough to

definitively determine what kind of I. D. Card was issued upon discharge

of the service member

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/06-H.html

I expect Fetzer, Healy, Tink and Horne were issued 1173's or similar cards.

Were they?

All I said was that when Oswald and Powers were captured they had on them the same Military ID card.

Now, like Jean Davision, you say it doesn't mean anything.

BK

Unless you can show that such cards weren't commonly issued to personnel discharged from the armed forces 1956 - 9 you've got nothing more than a mildly interesting footnote. YOU cited Davidson she said several other men in his unit got the same card. But now you doubt your own source! Got any evidence she is wrong?Try doing a Google search it seems that yes indeed such cards were common.

"All I said was that when Oswald and Powers were captured they had on them the same Military ID card. "

BS on the other thread you wrote,"That Gary Powers and LHO both had this card, and that means

nothing, stretches credulity."

Yea, I think it does mean something.

BK

[Len Colby]

Therein lies the problem,you've failed to produce any evidence such cards weren't common.

[William Kelly]

Therein lies the problem,you've failed to produce any evidence such cards weren't common.

I didn't say they were common, I said that both U2 pilot Gary Powers when he was shot down over Soviet Russia and the accused assassin of the President of the USA had the same Military ID on them when arrested by authorities.

You can say everybody in the world was issued one of those IDs and it still won't take away from the fact that both Oswald and Powers had the same US DOD Military ID on them when arrested.

To me, that says that they were at the same level in the intelligence network that they were affiliated, and it may be the same network, since Oswald repeatedly worked on U2 related projects, from his work as a radar operator at Atsugi U2 base in Japan, to his placing captions on the prints of U2 photos at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval.

So, Professor Fetzer complains that I didn't write a review of his MIDP, and when I give him the review he says I'm not qualified to write book reviews, and when you ask for a source for saying both Oswald and Powers had the same Military ID on them when arrested, you now say that's not significant.

When I ask if the Zapruder film was ever at a secret CIA lab at Kodak's HQ in Rochester NY, I'm repeatedly told that its a myth and such a lab doesn't exist, and that I'm just speculating and basing my facts on hearsay.

It reminds me of the official cover story retreat, from the Northwinds intentional conspiracy that Castro killed JFK, sparking an invasion of Cuba, to the Lone-Nut scenario, which when proved unfounded, was replaced by the renegade CIA, anti-Castro Cuban suspects, which was overtaken by the biased Academia Mafia model, now popular, but still in the realm of the cover story.

As I said in my original Preview of IARRB, Doug Horne's book makes us look at the assassination from a new perspective, changing the situation, and drawing the line in the sand so it is no longer a debate between CTs and LNs, but those who have a designated suspect, and those who keep an open mind, recognize that it was a covert operation and coup, and that those responsible for what happened at DP and Parkland and Bethesda, also took over the government.

Therefore, our suspects are limited, and the government records should, and as we are discovering do - support the concept that not only was JFK killed by a conspiracy, but it was also a coup and not an attack on the man by outside forces like a Lone Nut, the Mafia or Cubans, but it was done by those within the government.

As far as wanting to debate the signifance of what it means that U2 pilot Gary Powers and Dealey Plaza Lone Patsy Oswald had the same Military ID on them when arrested, I think that fact speaks for itself.

They were both framed patsies, and neither worth pursing by those who are interested in identifying the real assassins.

BK

[Len Colby]

Therein lies the problem,you've failed to produce any evidence such cards weren't common.

I didn't say they were common, I said that both U2 pilot Gary Powers when he was shot down over Soviet Russia and the accused assassin of the President of the USA had the same Military ID on them when arrested by authorities.

You can say everybody in the world was issued one of those IDs and it still won't take away from the fact that both Oswald and Powers had the same US DOD Military ID on them when arrested. To me, that says that they were at the same level in the intelligence network that they were affiliated

Yes, LHO and Powers and how many other thousands of vets? Apparently about half of LHO's unit got the same card were they all CIA agents as well? Do you really think it would make sense to issue a special ID card to CIA agents that would make them identifiable to anyone who captured them? I don't get the LHO was a CIA agent AND a patsy theory, one or the other makes sense but not the two together.

and it may be the same network, since Oswald repeatedly worked on U2 related projects, from his work as a radar operator at Atsugi U2 base in Japan, to his placing captions on the prints of U2 photos at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval.

Twice is repeatedly? U2 overflights were only a small part of Astugi's operations I've seen no evidence LHO wasdirectly connected to them. Do you suspect everyone who was stationed there? Nor have I seen any evidence he captioned U2 photos. The company he worked MAY have done so but I imagine you document your claim he did so?

So, Professor Fetzer complains that I didn't write a review of his MIDP, and when I give him the review he says I'm not qualified to write book reviews, and when you ask for a source for saying both Oswald and Powers had the same Military ID on them when arrested, you now say that's not significant.

If it turned out such cards were common or some linked tointelligence operatives it could have been significant but that doesn't seem to be the case.

When I ask if the Zapruder film was ever at a secret CIA lab at Kodak's HQ in Rochester NY, I'm repeatedly told that its a myth and such a lab doesn't exist, and that I'm just speculating and basing my facts on hearsay.

No IIRC I told you once I doubted such a lab existed. Apparently there was such a lab or at least a lab that did contract work for military intelligence.A lab that would not have been able to develop Kodakchrome let alone forge a movie.

As far as wanting to debate the signifance of what it means that U2 pilot Gary Powers and Dealey Plaza Lone Patsy Oswald had the same Military ID on them when arrested, I think that fact speaks for itself.

They were both framed patsies, and neither worth pursing by those who are interested in identifying the real assassins.

????? Now you really lost me, Powers was a patsy somehow tied to the assassination?

[William Kelly]

Therein lies the problem,you've failed to produce any evidence such cards weren't common.

I didn't say they were common, I said that both U2 pilot Gary Powers when he was shot down over Soviet Russia and the accused assassin of the President of the USA had the same Military ID on them when arrested by authorities.

You can say everybody in the world was issued one of those IDs and it still won't take away from the fact that both Oswald and Powers had the same US DOD Military ID on them when arrested. To me, that says that they were at the same level in the intelligence network that they were affiliated

Yes, LHO and Powers and how many other thousands of vets? Apparently about half of LHO's unit got the same card were they all CIA agents as well? Do you really think it would make sense to issue a special ID card to CIA agents that would make them identifiable to anyone who captured them? I don't get the LHO was a CIA agent AND a patsy theory, one or the other makes sense but not the two together.

and it may be the same network, since Oswald repeatedly worked on U2 related projects, from his work as a radar operator at Atsugi U2 base in Japan, to his placing captions on the prints of U2 photos at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval.

Twice is repeatedly? U2 overflights were only a small part of Astugi's operations I've seen no evidence LHO wasdirectly connected to them. Do you suspect everyone who was stationed there? Nor have I seen any evidence he captioned U2 photos. The company he worked MAY have done so but I imagine you document your claim he did so?

So, Professor Fetzer complains that I didn't write a review of his MIDP, and when I give him the review he says I'm not qualified to write book reviews, and when you ask for a source for saying both Oswald and Powers had the same Military ID on them when arrested, you now say that's not significant.

If it turned out such cards were common or some linked tointelligence operatives it could have been significant but that doesn't seem to be the case.

When I ask if the Zapruder film was ever at a secret CIA lab at Kodak's HQ in Rochester NY, I'm repeatedly told that its a myth and such a lab doesn't exist, and that I'm just speculating and basing my facts on hearsay.

No IIRC I told you once I doubted such a lab existed. Apparently there was such a lab or at least a lab that did contract work for military intelligence.A lab that would not have been able to develop Kodakchrome let alone forge a movie.

As far as wanting to debate the signifance of what it means that U2 pilot Gary Powers and Dealey Plaza Lone Patsy Oswald had the same Military ID on them when arrested, I think that fact speaks for itself.

They were both framed patsies, and neither worth pursing by those who are interested in identifying the real assassins.

????? Now you really lost me, Powers was a patsy somehow tied to the assassination?

You are really in a tissy now Len, and really lost.

All I said and all I am saying is that both Gary Powers and Lee Harvey Oswald had the same military ID on them when taken into custody.

You asked for a citation and I gave it to you.

Now you say it doesn't mean anything and are spinning your head on how do deal with it.

I can only give you the citation, I can't think clearly for you.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

All I said and all I am saying is that both Gary Powers and Lee Harvey Oswald had the same military ID on them when taken into custody.

All this nonsense stems from a VERY silly book by two jokers named Ray & Mary La Fontaine

The La Fontaines nonsense was exposed by several researchers, including Yours Truly in The Assassination Chronicles http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=14

The short version is: Lee Oswald, like every other serviceman, was given a PX card when finished his tour of active duty. The La Fontaines tried to turn this into one of their "scoops."

Doug Horne checked out the La Fontaine's allegations and found they were basically BS.

Yes, Doug clearly explains that there was nothing special about Lee Oswald's PX card. It was just a card that allows the bearer to buy stuff cheap at any U.S. Military base. Gary Powers had one and I know many people who had one. Unfortunately, I am told that prices at the PX nowadays are no great bargain.

t also gives you a good idea of how Doug Horne thinks and writes as an analyist issuing a report. Clean, clear, concise.

None of this is mentioned in the book IARRB.

All very true, and the reason it is not mentioned in Doug's book is that Doug himself has proved that it is a NON-ISSUE.

[Jack White]

All I said and all I am saying is that both Gary Powers and Lee Harvey Oswald had the same military ID on them when taken into custody.

All this nonsense stems from a VERY silly book by two jokers named Ray & Mary La Fontaine

The La Fontaines nonsense was exposed by several researchers, including Yours Truly in The Assassination Chronicles http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=14

The short version is: Lee Oswald, like every other serviceman, was given a PX card when finished his tour of active duty. The La Fontaines tried to turn this into one of their "scoops."

Doug Horne checked out the La Fontaine's allegations and found they were basically BS.

Yes, Doug clearly explains that there was nothing special about Lee Oswald's PX card. It was just a card that allows the bearer to buy stuff cheap at any U.S. Military base. Gary Powers had one and I know many people who had one. Unfortunately, I am told that prices at the PX nowadays are no great bargain.

t also gives you a good idea of how Doug Horne thinks and writes as an analyist issuing a report. Clean, clear, concise.

None of this is mentioned in the book IARRB.

All very true, and the reason it is not mentioned in Doug's book is that Doug himself has proved that it is a NON-ISSUE.

It clearly is NOT a non-issue, because the card has on it the fabricated

composite LHO Minsk photo. Now why would a genuine card have on it

a bogus photo of LHO? (See cover of Harvey and Lee, by Armstrong).

Jack

[Jack White]

There were even two versions of the bogus card, with two different LHO signatures...not a non-issue at all.

Jack

[William Kelly]

All I said and all I am saying is that both Gary Powers and Lee Harvey Oswald had the same military ID on them when taken into custody.

All this nonsense stems from a VERY silly book by two jokers named Ray & Mary La Fontaine

The La Fontaines nonsense was exposed by several researchers, including Yours Truly in The Assassination Chronicles http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=14

The short version is: Lee Oswald, like every other serviceman, was given a PX card when finished his tour of active duty. The La Fontaines tried to turn this into one of their "scoops."

Doug Horne checked out the La Fontaine's allegations and found they were basically BS.

Yes, Doug clearly explains that there was nothing special about Lee Oswald's PX card. It was just a card that allows the bearer to buy stuff cheap at any U.S. Military base. Gary Powers had one and I know many people who had one. Unfortunately, I am told that prices at the PX nowadays are no great bargain.

t also gives you a good idea of how Doug Horne thinks and writes as an analyist issuing a report. Clean, clear, concise.

None of this is mentioned in the book IARRB.

All very true, and the reason it is not mentioned in Doug's book is that Doug himself has proved that it is a NON-ISSUE.

All very true, but why bring anybody else like the La Fontaines into it when we can deal with the original records?

And all I am saying and I put it into the form of a question, not a fact or accusing anybody of anything - did Oswald and Powers have the same Military ID on them when taken into custody, and the answer is Yes.

Now you can deduct anything you want from that fact, including the idea that every Marine and every Lockhead pilot on retainer with the CIA and every double-agent defector was given the same card - thousands of them - it still remains an unalterable fact that both the accused assassin of the President and the U2 pilot shot down over Soviet Russia had the same military ID on them when taken into custody.

You say it means nothing.

Okay then you don't have to go down that alley, but then when I do, just don't come back and say it was a waste of time.

As Jack White notes, there's still a lot of ineresting questions about Oswald's Military ID card, even though Doug Horne signed off prematurely before answering all the questions, doesn't mean that we can't answer them.

One point is that the ID didn't just get you into the PX, it could have gotten you on a Military Air Transport (MAT) plane on a stand by basis, that may account for the London to Helsinki leg of the defection. Something that every GI with the same card could have used, but Oswald is the one we are talking about.

Oh, and thanks for that article on the La Fontaines JRC, I agree completely, except for the significance of the military ID card, which we can talk about without bringing up the Fontaines, and I din't know that Oswald was blackmailed by Hosty. Where did you get that?

Thanks,

BK

Edited December 15, 2009 by William Kelly

[J. Raymond Carroll]

One point is that the ID didn't just get you into the PX, it could have gotten you on a Military Air Transport (MAT) plane on a stand by basis,

Yes, that is the other benefit of a PX card.

I agree completely, except for the significance of the military ID card, which we can talk about without bringing up the Fontaines,

As Doug Horne's memos point out, it was the La FOntaines who started that particular wild goose chase.

and I didn't know that Oswald was blackmailed by Hosty. Where did you get that?

That was one of the many silly claims made by the La FOntaines in their silly book

[Jack White]

One point is that the ID didn't just get you into the PX, it could have gotten you on a Military Air Transport (MAT) plane on a stand by basis,

Yes, that is the other benefit of a PX card.

I agree completely, except for the significance of the military ID card, which we can talk about without bringing up the Fontaines,

As Doug Horne's memos point out, it was the La FOntaines who started that particular wild goose chase.

and I didn't know that Oswald was blackmailed by Hosty. Where did you get that?

That was one of the many silly claims made by the La FOntaines in their silly book

NO, it was not the LaFontaines who started that. I guess it was me. Back when I was

a lot more trusting and naive, the LaFontaines told me lies* to convince me that they

were big-time movie producers; I consented to let them videotape my four hour

slide presentation. One of the things they videotaped was my study of the DoD

card with the fake Minsk photo.

Using my studies as a basis, they then did their "own investigation", and the

documentary they told me they were going to make turned out to be their largely

silly book. They did not credit me on any of the materials obtained from me,

which was OK, since they distorted lots of it. And they added in their speculation

that "Oswald Talked". However, I do not recall too much wrong with their

DoD card research.

Jack

*they told me that they produced the film THE THIN BLUE LINE. They didn't.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Jack White