William King Harvey aka Oliver Hardy

[Joe Bauer]

I believe that Bill Harvey's wife and her husband's summed up feelings about JFK ( as heard in the YouTube interview posted earlier in this thread ) are more telling than many would think.

In this, she referred in a disgusted tone to both JFK and his wife as "real scum" and "idiots." 

Now this is something she said in her older, near end of life years.

You would think that with the living of life and experiencing the ups and downs and sadness and losses and self-reflections of such, combined with the usual tempering of age, that Mrs. Harvey might finally have one ounce of sympathy for someone like Jackie Kennedy and her children and their tragic loss of their father before she herself left this mortal coil and faced her own life review judgement.

But no...this disparaging old woman seems as hard and mean and hateful in her last years as the poison apple one in Snow White regards JFK and Jackie Kennedy and even RFK.

And if Mrs. Harvey felt that at ease openly expressing such deep despising of JFK in her last years in a public shared interview, one can imagine how much more hateful she and her husband were " in private " toward JFK during his presidency and up to 11,22,1963.

Coupled with Mrs.Harvey's perverse and sickening praise of Mafiosi Johnny Roselli as a true "patriot" at the same time disdainfully trashing JFK as "scum" ...You certainly have someone ( and her husband ) whose psychological bent hatred of JFK was so obvious and great, you are forced by reason in that scientific field to at least consider them as, in the least, unsympathetic to his removal, even in the brutal way it was carried out.

W. Harvey and D. Rosales were both reported to express not just this extreme and deep level hate and disgust toward JFK when he was alive, but even bragging about how they ( Rosales anyway ) got rid of this bastard and his brother later on.

JFK simply had too many powerful enemies in this country like those two to ever survive trying to change the status quo which enabled them. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[David Andrews]

But no...this disparaging old woman is as hard and mean and hateful in her last years as the poison apple one in Snow White.

She and Harvey were alcoholics, and one night at a dinner party her mouth - and I think some violent act - cost Harvey some career points.

[Joe Bauer]

When someone of William Harvey's occupation and connections aligns themselves more with members of the mob, with their history of sick murderous corruption and who openly wanted JFK and RFK permanently out of the way, than his own President and Attorney General, you cannot ignore the implications of that shared high powered JFK hating devil's pact.

It's like all the self-interested non-elected highest power groups of that time, no matter how nefarious and diverse their philosophies and agendas, bonded together with one common goal of highest priority...getting rid of the main threat to their interests - JFK & RFK.

Mafia, the most extreme right groups, raging racists, big oil - wealthiest men in the world at that time, highest authority secret government and their leaders, highest military leadership and the MIC, LBJ, Hoover, Nixon, hot blooded anti-Castro Cubans, etc.etc.

JFK didn't have a chance against the full force of a common bond juggernaut like that.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[B. A. Copeland]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:12 PM, Jeffrey Reilley said:

Did it say what time he departed? Early morning? Post assassination? 

The relevant video is here:

 

If it doesn't skip for you, jump to 38:52. The video doesn't specifically mention when F. Mark Wyatt bumped into his boss Harvey but it seems to imply that it very close to the big event, be it right after or right before.

 

On 5/23/2017 at 4:20 PM, David Josephs said:

http://erenow.com/modern/the-devils-chessboard-allen-dulles-the-cia/18.html

Mark Wyatt was attending a meeting at the Gladio base in Sardinia with Bill Harvey when he heard that President Kennedy had been shot at high noon in Dallas. When the telex arrived, in the early evening local time, Wyatt found Harvey collapsed in bed, following a late-afternoon round of martinis. After Wyatt managed to rouse him, the CIA station chief blurted out some provocative remarks about the events in Dallas that deeply disturbed Wyatt for the rest of his life. According to his three children, Wyatt, who died in 2006, at eighty-six, would always suspect that Harvey had some prior knowledge of the Kennedy assassination or was in some way involved.

---- a bit further down

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Harvey was in Dallas in November 1963,” House Assassinations Committee investigator Dan Hardway, who was assigned by the panel to probe possible CIA connections to JFK’s murder, observed years later. “We considered Harvey to be one of our prime suspects from the very start. He had all the key connections—to organized crime, to the CIA station in Miami where the plots against Castro were run, to other prime CIA suspects like David Phillips. We tried to get Harvey’s travel vouchers and security file from the CIA, but they always blocked us. But we did come across a lot of memos that suggested he was traveling a lot in the months leading up to the assassination.” (More recent legal efforts by the author to obtain Harvey’s travel records from the CIA also proved fruitless, despite the 1992 JFK Records Act, which required all federal agencies to release documents related to the Kennedy assassination.)

Thanks also David for posting that info and I personally am looking forward to reading Martin's book. This info also helps us just a bit more attempt to piece together an honest historical mosaic that can help us understand Harvey's possible role and whereabouts surrounding the day in question. Nothing better than listening to Simpich speak about Harvey and Co. as well. The man was a legend and extremely adept at the spy game.

Edited May 29, 2017 by B. A. Copeland

[B. A. Copeland]

*Bump. This topic is potentially explosive and needs to be kept at the top of JFK assassination-related discussions.

[Paul Brancato]

On 5/29/2017 at 1:43 PM, B. A. Copeland said:

The relevant video is here:

 

If it doesn't skip for you, jump to 38:52. The video doesn't specifically mention when F. Mark Wyatt bumped into his boss Harvey but it seems to imply that it very close to the big event, be it right after or right before.

 

Thanks also David for posting that info and I personally am looking forward to reading Martin's book. This info also helps us just a bit more attempt to piece together an honest historical mosaic that can help us understand Harvey's possible role and whereabouts surrounding the day in question. Nothing better than listening to Simpich speak about Harvey and Co. as well. The man was a legend and extremely adept at the spy game.

What book are you referring to?

i want to keep this thread front and center too. I was reminded yesterday that CMC had offices in several countries, and that one of those branches in Switzerland was connected to the OAS. I mention this only because of the fascist/Nazi links of CMC. How many of the key CIA people worked with Gehlen in Germany during the 1950's? Ted Shackley, who began as Gehlen's translator and left Germany in 1961 to head JMWAVE. Richard Helms, William Harvey. Then in Italy with the fascists you have Angleton. Linked with all of this is Dulles, who was responsible for protecting and promoting Gehlen. 

Harvey is sent to Rome not by JFK or RFK, but by Helms, who was his superior. So ZRRIFLE goes underground in a way. Harvey meets with QJWIN. Why? Who was he? Did QJWIN arrange the murder of Lumumba? Hammarskold? 

Was Harvey at Parkland when Oswald died? Curiously, one of the documents just released is a memo by Hoover who says that the FBI had an agent monitoring Oswald's death. 

In the absence of incontrovertible proof of Harvey's involvement and the still hidden Harvey files we are left to our own theories. Essentially I think that MC is the rabbit hole, and that CMC is the real story.

[James DiEugenio]

Watch it Paul, Steve might start a Julius Caesar assassination thread

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

What book are you referring to?

I think he means "Wilderness of Mirrors" - an amazing book about Harvey and Angleton....  by David Martin

So I ask myself... if HARVEY was the planner... what leverage is there against those at Bethesda to get them to cooperate... LeMay? Burkley? Galloway?

I just don't get the feeling that the CIA players told the Military players what to do... but vice versa.

[David Andrews]

I just don't get the feeling that the CIA players told the Military players what to do... but vice versa.

Any significance to Bill Kelly's "Valkyrie Plot" theory, in that JFK had given covert ops responsibilities to the military?

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, David Andrews said:

I just don't get the feeling that the CIA players told the Military players what to do... but vice versa.

Any significance to Bill Kelly's "Valkyrie Plot" theory, in that JFK had given covert ops responsibilities to the military?

 

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I think he means "Wilderness of Mirrors" - an amazing book about Harvey and Angleton....  by David Martin

So I ask myself... if HARVEY was the planner... what leverage is there against those at Bethesda to get them to cooperate... LeMay? Burkley? Galloway?

I just don't get the feeling that the CIA players told the Military players what to do... but vice versa.

I don't think there is distance between the top CIA guys and the JCS. I don't know who might have initiated the plans, but Harvey may have carried them out. David - Could you elaborate a bit?

[David Josephs]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, Paul Brancato said:

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 10:30 AM, David Josephs said:

I think he means "Wilderness of Mirrors" - an amazing book about Harvey and Angleton....  by David Martin

So I ask myself... if HARVEY was the planner... what leverage is there against those at Bethesda to get them to cooperate... LeMay? Burkley? Galloway?

I just don't get the feeling that the CIA players told the Military players what to do... but vice versa.

I don't think there is distance between the top CIA guys and the JCS. I don't know who might have initiated the plans, but Harvey may have carried them out. David - Could you elaborate a bit?

As I see it Paul...  The OSS was created out of the Military and the Elite... prior to that is was the rich who were the spies as they could afford the travel and lifestyle well-before the US decided to put it's will behind spying.

I see the CIA as the Doberman out front of Military Intelligence/NSA.  The CIA takes the heat, can weather the storm, can break laws (murder and deal drugs) with immunity... can always be the "Bad cop" to every ones else's good cop.   When was the last time anyone hears about the intel work of ONI, MID, etc...? 

My feeling about this remains firmly in the "Military did it" camp.  Bethesda happens for the same reason the SS takes JFK from Parkland...  from what I can see, there is no CIA connection to that action but only the Secret Service and the orders of Chief Rowley...  then again both Kellerman and Greer were ex-military as was Rowley.

I think we can agree that without Bethesda (and/or Walter Reed) and the specter of court-martial hanging overhead, the reverse engineering of the Best Evidence would have been much more difficult.  Given what we now know we can't even imagine an Earl Rose TX autopsy of JFK....  or an uninterrupted journey for the Zapruder film with the NPIC that weekend.

The CIA created the reports which fanned the flames of the Cold War which untied the purse-strings in Congress to spend more on the Military who sent the CIA out in the first place...  one thing I feel certain - Allen Dulles did not tell General LeMay or anyone else in the JCS or Defense Dept what to do.  and Personally I believe more clout was carried in the halls of  Military "Industry" and "Military" than ever would be in the CIA.

A brief History:

The FBI was initially tasked with Western Hemisphere espionage via it's SIS.  It grew pretty well over the 5 years of the war from 1940-45.  But then the war ended and the OSS's work in the Eastern Hemisphere leads to the movement of Nazi's into Central and South America...  We'll need a peacetime Intel unit... and while Hoover pitched the SIS, already in place with assets and a stream of intel as well as operational success... the OSS and the Military were - IMHO - creating a public face for the Military "Dark work" that needed to be done... as well as the DRUG BUSINESS per PD Scott's work.  

Initially much of the stay behind forces in Europe were to protect and take over the Drug business...  (the one and true reason the French were in SE Asia)

The CIA was staffed with OSS, Elite and Military men.  Virtually EVERYONE went thru the military or had a livelihood supported by the Military bases and/or activities.

The first CIA Directors were ex Military Intel.  The first non-military Director was the Sec of State's brother.
ONI and MID do not fade away either... nor do the FBI's SIS assets... so what we have are 3 and 4 different intelligence agencies intermingling with the State department's Ambassadors at the different consulates/embassies around the world.  The CIA provides all these other entities a firewall of perceived protection since any and all DARK WORK would be done by those crazy CIA people... when in most cases it was the Military funding as well as manning a good many of these missions.

But we need a step back... there was also the CIG - Central Intelligence Group which Truman created for 2 purposes:  1. Strategic warning & 2. coordinate clandestine activity. (Headed by the Navy's Rear Admiral Sidney Souers.)

Within the Navy and Army we had ONI and MID (G-2) who were the US's first spying groups.  OSS was an extension of these 2 groups.

While Truman wanted to remove the OSS entirely, the "non-military" portions of OSS were to be preserved in the new SSU (Strategic Services Unit) on recommendation of John J McCloy who was a friend to Donovan, OSS's creator.  McCloy wanted to keep SSU out of the MID (G-2)

It was the JCS who proposed a National Intelligence Agency (NIA) under which the SSU assets would be transferred... JCS Chairman Leahy transmitted the JCS plan to Sec's of Navy and War and finally to State. who sat on it for a while...  the plan for this new Agency included,  (quote)...such services of common concern as the NIA determines can be more efficiently accomplished by a common agency, including the direct procurement of intelligence (end quote...  JCS 1181/5) and was gaining support at top levels of government.

Effectively, Donovan and McCloy insured the intelligence UNITS of the OSS were kept together and folded into the CIG...  2 years later the CIG becomes the CIA.  McCloy remains as one of the "Wise Men" and the wheels on the bus go round and round...

DJ

Hope that elaboration wasn't too long winded... lol

 

 

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

If its really Harvey in the operating room, then that answers a lot of questions ... and it seems somebody like him was observed by the doctors

Regarding the hierarchy of players (CIA vs. JCS), I note that the Defense Intelligence Agency was already in place (since 1961) and - unlike CIA - can operate more freely on American soil than CIA (theoretically) and spans all of the armed services.  Both agencies today are roughly the same size (if you can believe public estimates) with CIA at around 22,000 employees and DIA at 17,000 employees.  There have been overtures made about DIA Director Lieutenant General Joseph Carroll, USAF, who played a part in the Cuban missile crisis.

If the bad guys behind the scenes were affiliated with DIA (not sure of their composition and role in 1963), then the question of military versus CIA becomes moot.

[Joe Bauer]

10 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

If its really Harvey in the operating room, then that answers a lot of questions ... and it seems somebody like him was observed by the doctors

Regarding the hierarchy of players (CIA vs. JCS), I note that the Defense Intelligence Agency was already in place (since 1961) and - unlike CIA - can operate more freely on American soil than CIA (theoretically) and spans all of the armed services.  Both agencies today are roughly the same size (if you can believe public estimates) with CIA at around 22,000 employees and DIA at 17,000 employees.  There have been overtures made about DIA Director Lieutenant General Joseph Carroll, USAF, who played a part in the Cuban missile crisis.

If the bad guys behind the scenes were affiliated with DIA (not sure of their composition and role in 1963), then the question of military versus CIA becomes moot.

We have so many abbreviated letters secret intelligence and surveillance groups now, who can keep track?  They must be constantly bumping into each other.

And with Homeland Security, this massively expanded industry of secret surveillance agencies must employ millions of people!

It's on every level.  Federal, state, county, city.

A local transit bus driver told me a few years ago that some of the so-called rough looking derelict types that hang out at our main city transit centers ( our city population is only 30,000 ) were actually undercover surveillance police officers. Part of a secret group.

Donald Rumsfeld said on Sept. 10th, 2001..."We cannot track 2.3 trillion in Pentagon transactions.'

With all these black budget and secret agency demands, what would one expect? 

What kind of society have we allowed ourselves to become?

We spend TRILLIONS on secret agenda, self watching doings while at the same time we have fallen so far down world lists in areas of education, health care, "real" job creation ( not Wal-Mart, gas station and fast food jobs ) infrastructure, drug abuse and addiction, homelessness, transportation, energy reformation, etc, etc, etc..

What a quality of life sacrificing price we have paid to build and maintain such a massive "security" and surveillance machine.

Like a father spending so much of his income and family budget on family security and turning his home into a highly secured fortress ( with spy cams even watching his own family members ) that his wife and kids have to do without or get by with second rate basics just to keep up and maintain that huge main priority expense.

Sorry for the straying from our JFK theme, but I believe such things we see like this today in our daily lives personally and society in general are actually connected in many ways to his removal 54 years ago. 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

Joe - diversion or not your post goes to the heart of why we care and why we are so concerned about our country. I think the last several posts (thanks for the brief history David) show that at least some of us see the coup as essentially military, in service of wealthy industrialists. I have my theories about why we maintain a massive security machine at the expense of the ordinary citizen. They're not pretty, and they reveal a very long term agenda.

[Gene Kelly]

This story is so deeply rooted in long-standing biases. Sometimes, we seek straightforward and "linear" explanations.   I don't know how to say this more profoundly, but labeling the bad guys (or the erstwhile patriots) as "CIA or military" is too simplistic.

I'm convinced personally (cant prove it) that Harvey was one of them.  He was many things in his career and life -- a lawyer, FBI, CIA (maybe he was a devote Catholic at one time) -- but I think he ran his own show with a lot of impunity.   He was not someone to be "managed" when RFK put his thumb down on the excesses.   His bosses sent him away, and purportedly exiled him in Rome.   But Harvey ran with gangsters and thugs ... I'm sorry, but John Roselli was not an all-American mafiaso;. he was a criminal.   The ends did not justify the means. 

My point is ... Harvey is not simply "CIA".  He operated outside of the law, made his own rules, and drank in excess.  Perhaps I could be lambasted for saying this on the Forum, but there are many honorable and hard-working people who represent CIA and FBI ... and to associate this guy with those agencies is an insult to them.