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SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS: Truth or Obfuscation?


Guest James H. Fetzer

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The information is in HORNE IV. Horne also lists the many prevarications of Kellerman.

He shows the likelihood that Greer and Kellerman were among the SS conspirators.

Jack

I doubt very much that Doug made the mistake of attributing what Sibert and O'Neil said about Humes to Finck in his book. If he did, he'll need to add it to his errata page.

This is just a matter of being precise, Jack. It was HUMES Sibert & O'Neil described in their report as probing the back wound with his finger, of discovering it was shallow, etc.

I expect Fetzer merely misspoke.

The point is to be correct when putting out information that some not steeped in the evidence may not realize is in error, and wah-lah .... a new myth is born.

We can do better than that, and it shouldn't be such a thorn strewn labyrinth.

While Doug does have an errata page, it is mostly typos.

Doug (p. 699 Vol. III), "In their FD-302 report (Appendix 16), they wrote: During the later stages of this autopsy, Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. Humes with his finger...."

Though I also seem to recall that Dr. Finck was asked about this during his testimony in New Orleans and he said that a military general in the room ordered them not to probe further.

The word Doug Horne uses is you must "emerse" yourself in the evidence before you can understand it.

BK

Yes, precisely .... it was Humes S & O wrote that passage about, NOT Finck as Fetzer cited. That's why I merely corrected the name noting it was Humes, not Finck. I figured Fetzer had merely mistyped.

Finck was asked about this wound during the Shaw trial, but he was not the one mentioned by S&O as probing with his finger.

The S & O report, as I noted before, is one of the ABCs of the medical evidence. I've known those ABCs for about 30 yrs now.

Thanks for this, Bill, Jack will more likely believe you. :-)

Barb :-)

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Wonderful points, Paul! Further confirmation comes from the "Tink and I love Jim and Jack" thread. It looks like "Game, set, match!"

Glad to oblige! It is important that the nonsense you and Jerry Logan are peddling be corrected "for the record", as you say. I've discussed this matter with Doug Horne in the meanwhile and therefore have great confidence in making the following important points, which I shall number:

(1) As Doug explains in INSIDE THE ARRB (2009), pages 1218-1219 and 1353, the dupe negative that is being studied is a fifth generation product, as you and Jerry have emphasized; however,

(2) the same artifacts noted by the Hollywood research group on the fifth generation dupe negative are also present on the MPI color positive transparencies held by the Sixth Floor Museum;

(3) those were made in 1997 at the Archives when the LMH Company hired MPI to photograph each frame of the film so that the Zapruders could sell their video product, "Image of An Assassination";

(4) not even Tink & Jerry can successfully question the evidence of alteration present on the dupe negative, since the artifacts of alteration are also present on the MPI transparencies, which are a first generation product;

(5) it is ironic that these transparencies are the ultimate guarantor of the fidelity of the fifth generation dupe negative, because they are in the custody of the Museum that is Gary Mack's employer;

(6) if the Museum were to suddenly stop allowing people to see them, then it--and Curator Gary Mack--would become even more blatantly a part of the cover-up, so it will probably not restrict access;

(7) David Mantik requested to see them and did so on 20 November 2009 and verified that these transparencies show the same evidence that the dupe negative shows with even greater clarity;

(8) frames 456 and 466, which are only seen clearly when viewed on the HD or 6K scans, as explained on pages 1359-1360 of Doug's book, show a wound behind the right ear but no large frontal wound;

(9) it is the absence of the large frontal wound in these frames--along with Jackie's testimony, for example--that decisively proves that the large frontal wound seen in frames 314-337 is a fabrication;

(10) it follows that any film frame that shows a major blow-out in the right-front or right side of the skull is an altered frame, where frames 456 and 466 establish their fabrication; and,

(11) as I have previously observed, the blow-out to the back of the head is clearly visible in frame 374, which I include in my chapter, "Dealey Plaza Revisited", http://www.und.nodak.edu/instruct/jfkconference/.

There is an old saying in the law that an attorney should never ask a question to which he does not already know the answer. I would have though you would know better by now. In your zeal to attack me and Jack, however, you have gone several steps too far and invited your own refutation.

Professor,

Just to keep the record really clear. Here is my post that you declined earlier to deal with. Only this time every word that comes from Doug Horne's book, Volume IV, page 1362 is underlined!

Where can you see the best copies of the Zapruder frames?

I will let Fetzer fulminate and bloviate to his heart’s content. Meanwhile, I’d like to return to a discussion of evidence.

Doug Horne has told us that a group of Hollywood film restoration experts have obtained copies of the Zapruder film from NARA and have scanned individual frames at high resolution. According to Horne, this will permit them to look at the back of JFK’s head in the frames subsequent to Z 313 to determine if there has been any alteration of the frame. They will produce a report soon.

It seems to me important to ask whether these film restoration experts in Hollywood will be looking at the best copies available of Zapruder frames. Last August, David Mantik emailed Gary Mack at the Sixth Floor Museum and asked him if he knew the whereabouts of the large format 4 x 5 inch Ektachrome transparencies of the extant Zapruder film commissioned by MPI in 1997 for its video Image of an Assassination. Gary Mack replied by email that the Ektachrome transparencies were in the possession of the Sixth Floor Museum and were available for viewing if a request was made through proper channels on the museum’s website. This was very important news. Whereas the dupe 35 mm negative was a fifth generation copy, the Ektachrome transparencies were only one generation removed from the extant film, and presumably would show any anomalies, or apparent alterations, in much greater detail than even the 35 mm dupe negative made from the Forensic Copy. If the extant film under cold storage at NARA were ever declared unavailable for direct examination for any reason, then the Ektachrome transparencies at the Sixth Floor Museum could become the best tool for studying apparent alterations in the film. Not only would these images be four generations closer to the extant film than the dupe negative (and therefore theoretically depict details in better resolution), but they could serve as a “control” to prove whether or not the Hollywood team had digitally altered their scans of the Zapruder frames in any way.

Hence, the best copies to view to determine whether there has been any alteration of frames are the 4" by 5" Ektachrome transparencies in the custody of the 6th Floor Museum.

Josiah Thompson

Hence, it would appear that the best copies for determining alteration are at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. According to Horne, they are available for study. Would you care to hazard a guess, Professor, why Horne has not done the obvious thing... gone to Dallas to have a look at the best copies? Why this detour to Hollywood? It doesn't make much sense to me but maybe you can explain it.

Josiah Thompson

Good post, Bill. For some reason, Tink & Jerry seem to have overlooked that Jack had already corrected me last night, so I assume they know that I have already been set right. I regard the advice I have received from experts like Jack, David Mantik, David Healy, John Costella, David Lifton, Noel Twyman, and others unnamed as one of the great strengths of the research group that I organized back in late 1992, which of course included Bob Livingston, who was wonderful!

Now that they have gotten their jollies, when will this new brain trust acknowledge the massive evidence that proves the film is a fake? They know about Mary and Jean in the street, the blow-out to the right front in the film as opposed to the blow-out to the left-rear observed by witnesses and substantiated by the medical evidence, Officer Chaney motoring forward, and of course the new evidence from studying a 6k version of the forensic copy from the National Archives.

So when are Tink & Jerry going to concede that the observations of this copy by prominent members of the Hollywood film community, which verified that the massive blow-out to the back had been painted over in black and that the "blob" and the blood spray had been painted in--just as Roderick Ryan had point out to Noel Twyman over a decade ago--is the final nail in the coffin of the film's authenticity? Or will they dismiss this, too, on the basis of generations of nonsense? When?

The jig is up, guys. While Moorman-in-the-street may be difficult for some to follow, Chaney motoring forward is not; and while the inconsistency between the medical evidence and the film requires understanding the medical evidence, the observations by the Hollywood experts does not. Everyone can even confirm the deception for themselves by viewing the blow-out at the back of his head in frame 374! So when are these two going to stop playing games and finally come clean?

Jerry,

The Key Word here is "Forensic copy."

Forensic has two meanings.

One meaning is the term used to debate, like school forensic teams.

The other definition of forensic is the ability to use in a court of law.

Not everything can be introduced into court as evidence.

Since the autopsy was not a forensic autopsy - that is to produce evidence that can be introduced into a court of law, none of the autopsy material is valid.

The autopsy done on JFK was done to determine the cause of death - gunshot wound to the head, murder.

The autopsy that still must be performed is a proper forensic autopsy, that will produce evidence that can be used in a court of law, a grand jury and then trial of someone indicted for a crime related to the assassination.

A forensic photo or film - would be one that could be introduced into a court of law, if necessary, and this can still happen, especially in regards to the Zapruder film.

Joe Backes wants Justice for JFK, well that can only happen if the case goes to a grand jury and then a trial.

The Z-film could go to court if someone, as Gary Mack puts says, "Steals it" and uses it without the permssion of the copyright owner - the Sixth Floor, and they sue.

Maybe someone should, as in the film "National Treasure," try to steal it and provoke a court case that will resolve many issues, especially those regarding the provenance and chain of custody issues.

BK

At about the 24:25 mark

Josiah Thompson:

"It seems to me that at one's most extreme hazard does one move to the postion of saying that any government investigator lied about evidence,

lied about what the evidence was, or fiddled the evidence.

For example I think one of the strongest indications of the impact of a bullet from behind...And incidentally seems to me there is much

more evidence of the impact of a bullet from the front on the President's head then there is of one from behind....."

(Thompson then mentions the fragments "ballistically matched to Oswald's rifle" found in the front seat of the limousine)

"....And critics have suggested this -- that these fragments were planted by governmental agents since the car was in

government hands after the assassination.

This throws.... to suggest this sort of thing throws the whole investigation into paralysis it seems to me. Because at that point it becomes

impossible to disjoin the good evidence, the clean evidence, from the dirty evidence. In otherwords, one has, then, no longer any criteria

for distinguishing between evidence one wants to base conclusions on, and evidence which one wants to throw away as false trails.

And, it seems to me, that a logical consequence of doing that at any point in the study of this whole case is to announce that one

has ended one's study. Because logically, one can't proceed any farther."

Unbelievable tosh, even for late 1967, yet it's a position Thompson and his network still cling to. For reasons, we are invited to believe, of intellectual "scruple."

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Also Doug, while you''re here and in light of your experience with witnesses, I'm wondering if the item I've indicated could have led observers from the rear to conclude that there was a bullet hole in the windshield?

Note: This is speculation, a question; not an offer of proof.

Again, the best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

Dishonest was perhaps too strong of a word and for that I apologize and I appeciate your humility that you may have been confused, mistaken or wrong. I do think that Martin's analysis should have been placed on the sites where the article posted. I do not know you or Barb and the one time I met Josiah I made the mistake of mentioning Jim's name and I incurred his wrath for several minutes. I outlined my concerns in my prior post and I continue to have them. I am not aware of any witnesses viewing the hole from the rear of the limo. I am curious who the odd woman shown in your picture in front of the limo is .There are pictures of the parked limo showing MANY people in front of the limo. I asked Glanges about the limo being cordoned off. It wasn't "moments" but it was also not later in the day. The impression I got was it would have been about 20-30 minutes. However, the people who were there by the vehicle were not placed behind the cordoned off area. They may have been asked to step back but once the Secret Service moved away it was easy for people to step back next to the limo. Glanges would have been inconspicuous and would have had a right to be at the hospital entrance. She was with another person, who in 1999 was still a physician, but was afraid to speak. I have a 90 percent certainty who that person was. Dr Glanges was a no-nonsense person and well respected thus it troubled me that it was suggested that there was something sinister or suspect about her and that Thompson was going to investigate her. I had no problem with that but I had a problem with not reporting back and leaving this "cloud" about her integrity. One would have to ask, as with many of the witnesses, what would have been her motivation for fabricating a story. Did they capitalize it in any way? I thought Nigel Turner and myself were the only ones that had spoken to her but I recently learned that the authors of "Murder Within" may have also talked with her. She, like the others, never sought publicity. I communicated with her sister after her death. I hope you listen to my interview on Black Op radio. It is not a transcript but an audio response. I care deeply about the truth. I have changed my mind about some small details over the years but nothing of substance. The evidence has gotten stronger and I am grateful you brought the Charles Taylor evidence forward. I do believe you made the mistake of taking some evidence from some unreliable sites and used such to buttress your position.

My best,

Doug

Doug,

No problem about the language. The rhetoric gets rough here at times and goes a little further than most people intend or at least would say face-to-face.

You're one up on me re: Barb and Josiah. I've never actually seen either of them. It's amazing what the internet lets us do!

First, about Martin Hinrichs on the windshield. I solicited Martin's comments after the article was posted here and at Lancer. Several people had doubts about John Hunt's analysis of the windshield cracks and I knew Martin to be a graphics professional with a conspiracy inclination. In my experience Martin has a very sharp eye and gives straight answers even when they're not convenient for him. Since you've read the thread you know that he doesn't think the windshield cracks match. However, in the course of our discussions it also became clear that there were many complications related to camera orientation and the fact that the FBI photos were from the front while the other photos were taken from the rear. It also became clear that the cracks and shadows of the cracks appeared differently depending on what material was behind them at the time of the photo and particularly when the photo exposure settings were changed. John Hunt was also kind enough to send me some additional high resolution scans which appeared to match the FBI photos and two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction. So our (or at least my) intent is to go to the NARA and try to get negative scans of all the materials and give it another try. At that time, whatever the outcome, I'll certainly make the results known. Until then, Martin's thread at Duncan MacRae's excellent jfkassassination forum has been discussed here and at Lancer and I think everyone who cares is aware of it. h**p://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,813.0.html

Second, Dr. Glanges. I appreciate that you've had an opportunity to observe here demeanor and that is an important piece of information. Even with that, I still doubt the accuracy of her account. Basically, I find it highly implausible in light of what we know to be true of Parkland at that time. The key is the group photo I posted. As Jim and Jack White have pointed out, the photo portrays the scene at the hospital relatively late in the game. Earlier, the police and Secret Service cordon was not well established and lots of people may have gotten close to the limousine.

However, Dr. Glanges was quite clear that her encounter with the limousine must have occurred after this photo because she says the limousine violently pulled away while she was touching the car. Of course, the limousine is still there in the photo - therefore her account must be that she observed and physically touched the limousine after this photo was taken. That is extremely hard to believe. As Jim noted, there is no one in front of the car at this point and the the final police and Secret Service guards are falling into place. Additionally, you'll notice that the medical personal are not in the emergency bay but segregated into two distinct clumps well away from the limousine. And, while it would certainly be usual for medical personnel to have access to the emergency bay, the emergency entrance to Parkland was closed shortly after the President's arrival and therefore no legitimate excuse existed for any hospital personnel to occupy that position.

Now, according to Dr. Glanges, not one but two people walk up to the limousine and at least one of them actually puts her hand on the car. No one tries to stop them and no one warns them away. Instead of saying something like "step back" or "get away from the car " security waits until she starts talking about a hole in the windshield and then a security man jumps in the car and drives off so violently that her hand is almost injured. Jim posted a very apt description of what the police and Secret Service were actually doing. He quoted Livingstone about Dudman, "... When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle..."

The short version is this:

1) It's highly unlikely that she or any one else could have gotten close to the limousine at the time she says she did

2) It's hard to believe that two people strolled up to the vehicle and laid hands on it and no one said a word about it

3) It's hard to accept that security responded to her by leaping in the car and racing off instead of just telling her to get lost or physically moving her away

4) It must have been very hard on the people standing behind the limousine when it suddenly and unexpectedly lurched toward them

5) I would have thought that someone getting in the car, starting the engine and shifting into reverse would have given her enough time to move her hand

Do I think that Dr. Glanges is lying? No. But to me, based on my experience with witnesses, her account shows all the signs of dramatic enhancement. I'm sure she saw the limousine and I'm sure she thought she saw a bullet hole. But it's so much more interesting to remember she got close and touched the car and caused a dramatic escape from the scene. Also, Her association with Dr. Creshaw may have influenced her memory. As you know, the first public account of her encounter was in the 1992 Crenshaw book JFK:Conspiracy of Silence. Dr. Glanges had followed Dr. Crenshaw to John Peter Smith Hospital where he was chairman of the Surgery Department. The same year that Conspiracy was published, Dr. Glanges succeeded Crenshaw as Department Chair. To be clear, I'm not suggesting a quid pro quo or any type of wrong doing. Simply that an enhanced, dramatic version often results when two old friends are hashing over their shared past.

Also, in terms of the dramatic, I have reservations about the second person who is afraid to speak. That does sound very dramatic, but when Dr. Glanges spoke with you seven years had passed since her public declaration of what transpired at Parkland on November 22, 1963. Yet, from all outward indications, she had prospered. She was a respected professional and a well-known and well-liked community leader. She was a department head at her hospital. What, exactly, does this second person fear? Dr. Glanges told her story and seemed to do all right after she told it. No mystery death, no professional disappointments and social prominence in her city. That doesn't seem like a heavy price to pay for speaking truth to power.

There you have it. I'm sure you'll find many flaws but I hope you'll agree that it's a reasoned position and not just a "smear at any cost" approach.

Also - a heads up. As you can tell from the Taylor information, I like digging. There's a lot of really interesting information in plain sight. In any case, I believe there's news footage of the limousine leaving Parkland!

(And no, it's not from Gary Mack.) With any luck it will show the departure from the emergency bay and we'll know for sure if Dr. Glanges was there. So far I've only seen an index that lists "JFK limousine leaving Parkland Hospital". I'm hoping to get into the actual archives before March. I'll keep you updated and let you know one way or the other.

Best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

This is an intelligent and reasonable reply. If Dr. Glanges or anyone was the sole witness I might have reason to take exception. However, as I have noted before one of the the most important indicators of the reliability of eyewitness is independent corroboration. Here, a number of people, with not one knowing more than one of the other witnesses to the hole, all witnessed a hole in the windshield. Such observations extended from Dallas to Washington D.C. to Dearborn, Michigan. What a phenomena it would be if everyone just happened to fabricate the exact same observation. In Dallas, it was not such a secret. Michaeal Paine talks about it in his Warren Commission testimony. Mark Lane spoke about the limo being flown to Detroit three days after the assassination in opposition to the official report in a speech in 1966. I am not the only one who can observe Dr. Glange's demeanor. TMWKK segment with her was filmed years before I spoke with her. Watch her. does she seem believeable? You judge. She did not go out giving interviews or write books. What would have been the benefit to her to fabricate a story? The only reason she said she would talk with me was that she was going to retire soon. She died one month later at age 59. Why did the other person with her that day not speak? She said it was because of fear for his job. I don't understand the fears but I believe they are real. Why would Malcom Perry not talk with anyone? I encountered this many times. The first time I spoke with Stavis Ellis, though he thad talked with many other people and giveni nterviews. maybe it was because i was an attorney but his words to me were "I can't talk with you. I don't want a bullet in my head." I dont't know with Glanges or anyone exactly how things were at Parkland that day. Once, I informed Ellis that someone questioned his veracity in much the same way that you are questioning Glanges. His response was an angry "were they there?" It is amazing what remarkable people so many of these witnesses were. I had similar responses from Whitaker and even a worker at Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. It seemed very irrational at times to me but there was no question these people felt it. Crenshaw, who I also spoke with several times, talks about the conspiracy of silence. i am not going to attempt to enhance or explain the testimony of any witness. I have found, however, that an intelligent witness wanting to fabricate a story, is likely to give as few details as possible, in order to make it more difficult to catch them in a mistruth. Glanges is very detailed. Her account was always consistent. Often, over time, a witness fabricating a story will forget some of the details they recounted before. This is something that bothers me about Judyth Baker. Glanges did not. Ellis and other witnesses to the hole did not. Ellis, as I noted, thought the hole was lower in the windshield. He did not change. Some witnesses were less certain. Every witness said they saw one hole and all of those with any expertise described it as a bullet hole. Such discrepencies in location do not bother me and candidly I expect such. Small details will change with witnesses over time. it is part of the human condition. Look at your windshiled. Because of the slant of a windshield the difference from below the side of the rear view mirror and lower in the windshield can be only one to two inches. The two people who viewed the windshield for the longest period of time were Taylor and Whitaker, two people who never knew anything of each other. They both described the hole in the exact same spot consistent, curiously enough, with the spiral nebulae in the Altgen's photo As to different locations listen to my interview. Let's say two people come upon a body in the woods within a few minutes of each other. Years later, the first person testifies at a trial that the body was laying in a north-south position with a red shirt on. The second person testifies that he recalled the body laying in a more east-west position and recalls the shirt as being brown. Does that mean that there were two different bodies or that neither person saw a body at all?

I am not going to embellish Glange's account. Hopefully, a film would vindicate her. I wish I had the opportunity to show her the photos of the many people standing in front of the limo at Parkland and have asked her if she could have identified herself. She did tell me that the people who were inside the cordon were never escorted outside of it. If the cordon was so tight who is that odd woman in front of the limo in the photo you posted. Certainly not Secret Service or FBI or a physician. Karl Kinaski made an interesting point. "Within the emergency parking lot, prior to the washing of the limo(sic) and the rebuilding of the limo-top, the limo was driven from one spot to another. Maybe Ms Glanges saw the whole at the first spot, not the (guarded) one shown in the picture? "

I don't know. If you are not comfortable than feel free to discount Glanges. Then you are going to have to discount each of the other witnesses. If you believe one, then the point is proven and then was it some kind of cosmic ciincidence that all of the others witnessed the same phenomena? Did these people engage in some type of conspiracy to deceve the public? Why did George Whitaker ever mention it to anyone besides his family from that day uNovember 25, 1963 until he spoke with me in 1993. was he so clever that he gained access to the White House Garage logs and relaized noone could account for the limo on 11/25/1963 and did he know that the official documents and records of Hess and Eisenhardt would be in such conflict and did he know in 1963 that the HSCA would find conflicts in the limousine chronology?

I was unaware that Martin Hinrichs had conspiracy inclinations. I was told something different but as you noted it was an objective analysis by a person you chose and in your request to him you indicated quite strongly you were looking for a match. Also to your statement that "two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction." If it is so complicated and they can look at a picture and tell they are the same and it would take a few thousand dollars to prove it it sounds somewhat contradictory. I would run, not walk, away from these people holding my wallet. i did not see your posts on Martin on the forum or Lancer on Martin. I saw a piece posted by Bernice on the forum but if you did, I apologize.

Also there was an obvious attempt to hide the defect in the Altgen's photo. It is easy to dissect Glanges or any witness and create doubt, if you desire in your own mind. Let's say someone drops a vase on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces. They pick up one piece and hold it up and say "look, this is not a vase." They set the piece down, pick up another piece, say the same and continue on and on. However, if you put all of the pieces together what do you have? Lo and behold you have a vase! This is analagous to the witnesses and their accounts. You seem reasonable. Why were the police officers dismissed as casual observers? Why was Prencipe dismissed by such irational logic. Were you suggesting thar evry minute of his time was accounted for at Bethesda that evening? If so, how and where did you get that verification. Do you know the distance from Bethesda to the Wh garage?

I believe the photos you showed in your article are different. The only person who can authenticate the first phot is Robert Frazier and you yourself indicated in a post to Pamela that he was not relible. You also indicated to her that it was clear that Taylor clearly was describing a hole in his account. Why the inconsistency and contradiction? You appear reasonable and sincere. If you send me a private message with your address I will send you a couple of things. My only agenda ever has been truth, nothing else. I never sought, nor desired, notierity. The reason I want to finish this book is simply as a promise to these wonderful people whio trusted me enough to share their accounts with me and that they, too, wanted only truth. Many have passed on but it is a promise to them I hope to keep. I sought truth for myself. I understand that no amount of evidence is ever going to convince some people. That is their problem. I have no intent to hide anything even if I suspect someone will attempt to use that information against me. I hope you had the opportunity to listen to my Black Op interview. I believe truth will prevail.

My best,

Doug Weldon

As everyone can see I am a terrible typist. Also, in the next to last paragraph Iwant to clarify that I meant can anyone account for every minute of Greer's time at Bethesda that evening.

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

Greer never left the autopsy room that night according to his WC testimony and mention by others as well. He is included as being present for the autopsy by Sibert & O'Neil. Kellerman too, who also testified to them both being present there all night and included that info in his original report as well. They were present when the morticians prepared the body, and then Greer drove JFK back to the White House for the last time in the wee hours of 11/23 ... leaving Bethesda just minutes before 4am and arriving at the White House at about 4:25am ... times are from memory. The driving distance from Bethesda to the White House and also to the White House Garage is just under 9 miles (a few tenths farther to the WH than to the WHG) ... don't have the numbers in front of me, I have driven the route and looked it up at the time our article was being written.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thank you for the reply. I have the distance from the WH to Bethesda as approximately eight miles but I will not quibble. Also please understand that Washington D.C. was a much different place in 1963 and it was much easier to navigate and then the routes were even more direct. I lived in Alexandria, VA in 1963. What time did the ambulance arrive at Bethesda and when did it leave? Are you suggesting Greer could not have gotten away and been gone for 30-60 minutes. Are you suggesting people were watching him the whole time? Did you know Nick and Greer were good friends? Did you know that Greer also testified that nobody was on the overpass on Elm Street? Did you know that Greer told many stories? Did you ever listen to the telephone interviews with Greer in 1970 and 1971? Did you know that Greer wrote a manuscript and that it is in the possession of a JFK researcher?

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

William Greer died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."

Truly I thank you for your reply and I hope one of the authors of your artcile will reply to my other questions.

Best,

Doug Weldon

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The information is in HORNE IV. Horne also lists the many prevarications of Kellerman.

He shows the likelihood that Greer and Kellerman were among the SS conspirators.

Jack

I doubt very much that Doug made the mistake of attributing what Sibert and O'Neil said about Humes to Finck in his book. If he did, he'll need to add it to his errata page.

This is just a matter of being precise, Jack. It was HUMES Sibert & O'Neil described in their report as probing the back wound with his finger, of discovering it was shallow, etc.

I expect Fetzer merely misspoke.

The point is to be correct when putting out information that some not steeped in the evidence may not realize is in error, and wah-lah .... a new myth is born.

We can do better than that, and it shouldn't be such a thorn strewn labyrinth.

While Doug does have an errata page, it is mostly typos.

Doug (p. 699 Vol. III), "In their FD-302 report (Appendix 16), they wrote: During the later stages of this autopsy, Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. Humes with his finger...."

Though I also seem to recall that Dr. Finck was asked about this during his testimony in New Orleans and he said that a military general in the room ordered them not to probe further.

The word Doug Horne uses is you must "emerse" yourself in the evidence before you can understand it.

BK

Yes, precisely .... it was Humes S & O wrote that passage about, NOT Finck as Fetzer cited. That's why I merely corrected the name noting it was Humes, not Finck. I figured Fetzer had merely mistyped.

Finck was asked about this wound during the Shaw trial, but he was not the one mentioned by S&O as probing with his finger.

The S & O report, as I noted before, is one of the ABCs of the medical evidence. I've known those ABCs for about 30 yrs now.

Thanks for this, Bill, Jack will more likely believe you. :-)

Barb :-)

While S & O are often portrayed as being part of the conspiracy, unlike Humes and Boswell, both Sibert and O'Neill, according to Horne, were anxious to testify under oath to the ARRB, and both did so, while others were left out, or not recalled after the original testimony was called into question by subsequent testimony.

BK

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Doug,

You need to make the arguments here and cite the interview for additional discussion. Most of the members are not going to go there without having a very good idea what hey will hear. Please elaborate your position. Your presence will make a difference, but you have to state your case.

Jim

An exchange here between Mr. Fetzer and myself, unrelated to the discussion with Doug Weldon below, deleted for the sake of length/space.-BJ

Jim:

Almost the entire interview is a rebuttal to the article "Eternal return." I will be glad to respond to the authors of the article after they have listened to it. Even here, this woman named Barb distorts the evidence. I do not know if it is done intentionally or is just sloppy. Robert Livingstone wrote to David Lifton on May 2, 1992: " Also relevant, I learned from a former classmate of mine from Stanford who was then a reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch, Richard Dudman, that he was one of the White House press group that accompnied the President to Dallas. Not getting much information from the Parkland Hospital, Dick went out to inspect the Lincoln limousine in which the President and Connolly and their wives had been riding. He thought he saw, for certain that there was a through-and-through hole in the upper left margin of the windshield. He described the spaling -splintering of glass at the margins as though the missile had entered from the front of the vehicle. When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle.

If there were a through-and-through windshield penetration, in that location, according to Dick, it had to come from the front."

The article by this Barb, a Jerry Logan, and Josiah Thompson, was one of the sloppiest,most irresponsible, and dishonest articles I have ever read. I spoke with Dudman. It was obvious he was pressured by the government by tactics that appear similar to what happened to Taylor.. Listen to my interview. Dudman's fear destroyed his friendship with Livingstone. Let's say I witnessed a murder. I describe it in great detail and the perpetrator confesses. Later. after much pressure, I recant my testimony and the perpetrator now says he did not commit the crime. According to the logic of the authors of the article, they would set the perpetrator free, and continue to look elsewhere for another perpetrator. The real world does not work that way and the legal system certainly does not for reasons at least one of the authors know very well. When the authors sought the expertise to verify a match to two photographs they published (with no way to authenticate the first picture) they convieniently failed to share that analysis by Martin Heinrichs with the members of this forum that the pictures DID NOT match. They omitted witnesses. They mischaracterized witnesses. They impugned the character od DOCTOR EVALEA GLANGES and suggested there was something "suspect" about her and they were going to investigate. Seven months later we do not know the results of that "investigation." They dismiss Nick Prencipe by making sloppy conclusions and having no understanding of the personalities involved or the geography of Washington D.C. In my interview I allow the deceased Nick Prencipe to respond himself to these erroneous assumptions. In fact, I am quite certain that the authors of this article never spoke to even one of the witnesses they seek to dismiss. If there is not a fact, it appears to be no problem to fabricate one. For those who claim their expertise in such, there appears to be no understanding of evidence or witnesses. In Doug Horne's book he quotes Ned Price, the Head of Restoration at a major motion picture studio, to say upon viewing frame 317 of the Zapruder Film, "Oh, that's horrible, that's just terrible. I can't believe its such a bad fake." I would have a similar reponse to the article "Eternal Return." I am going to have to take exception Jim. If anyone wants to how how bad the article is they need to START by listening to my interview a few weeks ago. This is not an exercise for me. I am willing to engage in intelligent discussion but not a he-thinks me-thinks. It is a pleasure to be on this forum.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Welcome to the forum, Doug. As James Fetzer already noted to you, you do need to make whatever case you want here on the forum. Jerry, Josiah and I invited critique from all when we originally posted the article, and, of course, are certainly interested still in any errors or misrepresentations anyone thinks were made and any other comments one might have. Jim apparently invited you to the forum to do just that. I'm sure you understand that waxing accusatory generalities do not make a base for any discussion or response; nor does any overall audio interview on another site. I am sure that if you choose to present any problems, errors, misrepresentations, etc you say are in the article here with specificity and complete cites in context, of course, one or more of us will be happy to respond. And other members of the forum will probably join the discussion as well. That's one reason having everything spelled out on the forum table is important.

Bests to you,

this woman named Barb ;-)

Barb:

Thank you. I simply do not have the time to transcribe a two hour talk for the forum. I am not making a personal attack against you and the other authors of the article but only the content. I do not know you or Jerry and I have only met Josiah Thompson once. SSID is an important book and I am stating so in my book. I appreciated the new knowledge about Charles Taylor but in my analysis, it reinforced the position I present as Richard Dudman underwent a similar experience. Jim did not invite me to the forum as my first contact with him in a number of years was this past week. Jim and I don't agree on everything and I thought David Lifton's post about Josiah Thompson not being an "agent" was very appropriate. I hope you see specificity in my prior comments and concerns such as not posting here or on Lancer the careful analysis by Martin Heinrich concluding that the two windshields used in the article were not a match. I do not believe that the first picture shows the windshield that was in the limousine in Dallas. Critical witnesses such as George Whitaker were omitted. Names were misspelled. Information was utilized from a site that is filled with inaccuracies. I have sometimes noticed that people who have claimed expertise on certain facets of the assassination often know very little. Documents are conflicting and there has to be a reasonable analysis of those documents. As for an example of something I consider sloppy or even a fabrication in your article is the statement, "Although it took a few moments to place a law enforcement cordon around the limousine, law enforcement officers then kept civilians back from the limousine: " What is your source of information for this. This is entirely contrary to the photographic evidence at Parkland and the observation of witnesses. A cordon was eventualy established but the people who were inside that cordon, including officers, hospital personnel, and other civilians were not removed and placed outside of it. Were any witnesses interviewed. These were decent, ordinary citizens. People like Whitaker,Glanges, Ellis, and Prencipe were very principled people. They know what they saw. I understand eye-witness testimony and am well aware of observations made about it by the foremost expert in the world, Elizabeth Loftus of Harvard. I have heard thousands of witness testify in my career. When I wanted to find out more about the limousine after the assassination I went to the home of Willard Hess, whose company made the limousine for Kennedy and refurbished it for Johnson. I often spoke with him and exchanged correspondence. I talked with a number of his workers who were involved. i wanted to understand them. Every witness I talked with I would ask other witnesses about them,i.e., were they honest, did they have a tendency to exaggerate, etc. Certain witnesses I would not use. In my interview I indicateIi could not use Madeline Brown without further corroboration to state what I believe is true, that Lyndon Johnson was aware of what is going on. What is the explanation for characterizing two trained police officers (and Elis had a career in Military Intelligence) as "casual" observers. I let the evidence lead me, not vice versa.

My best,

Doig

My heavens, Doug, neither I nor anyone else ever expected you to transcribe and post your complete Black Op interview. Since you expressed taking issue with our article, we were just expecting some specific examples we could address rather than vague generalities about sloppy research, fabrication, use of unchecked information from other sites and principled witnesses. etc. Like Jerry, I am glad you meant no personal attack nor offense; also like Jerry, I do think your rhetoric was quite strong, given as you note, that you do not even know us. I don't know you either, so I would never presume to know the depth of your knowledge, any areas of expertise, your abilities with documents and witnesses, etc. I am happy to see that with the dust settled on all of that, you and Jerry have had some good exchanges, and I see he has addressed a few of the issues you had concerns about in our article.

I would like to address the issue of Nick Principe. You note above he was a person of principle, and in a post to Jerry yesterday, you questioned what sort of " "irational [sic] logic" went into our dismissing him as a witness. I am surprised, given your witness expertise and investigative skills, that you remained unaware of the problem with Principe's claim due to the whereabouts of Greer during the time period related by Principe. Either not knowing the evidence, or never fact checking Principe's account, or both.

I responded to that "irational [sic] logic" post with the information about Greer's whereabouts that night. Yes, his whereabouts and involvement that night are known, not just from Greer himself, but by mention of him in the accounts of others, including Sibert & O'Neil. I have spoken to both Sibert and O'Neil. O'Neil mentioned Greer in relation to discussions in the morgue about a full vs partial autopsy as well as Greer and Kellerman's presence throughout the autopsy. I was talking to O'Neil about something autopsy related and that was just part of the info he related to me.

By his own telling, Principe places a time constraint on his claimed meeting with Greer near the White House grounds. You are familiar with an email Principe sent to Pamela McElwain-Brown after she had interviewed him by phone some years ago, as you were bcc'd on that letter ... which you later forwarded to Bernice Moore who posted it here on the forum in July of '08. I reposted that letter on the moderated group last year and you and Bernice then verified it as being authentic. Here is that letter:

QUOTE

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

END QUOTE

There can be no quibble about exactly what Principe claimed happened ... or where ... or when. His

account puts his meeting with Greer sometime between 6pm (when the plane carrying the family, and Greer too) arrived back from Dallas, and 8pm when the plane carrying the limo arrived at Andrews and preparations ... and transmissions ... were underway for returning the limo to the WH garage.

We know from other documents that by 9pm, the limo was in the garage, parked in a bay, and covered up.

Even without accounting for Greer's whereabouts all night .... which has been done ... his whereabouts from the time the plane carrying JFK's body landed at Andrews, proceeded to Bethesda, the body was offloaded into the morgue and the autopsy was getting underway, are clearly known.

That is Principe's timeframe by his own telling. And during that time, Greer was on national television for much of the time, offloading the casket into the ambulance after arriving on the plane at 6pm, driving that ambulance to Bethesda, entering the grounds there at 7pm. Then, helping to offload the casket at the back dock and escorting it into the morgue at 8pm and being present and accounted for by Sibert & O'Neil as being present at the autopsy.

Did Nick Principe ever see the limo/windshield? Maybe yes, maybe no. No one can say for sure. But his own story, in his own words, is impossible to reconcile in any way with known facts and he therefore fails as a reliable witness.

The evidence led us to this inescapable conclusion. Nothing "vice versa."

By the way, Rich DellaRosa related a different telling of Principe's claim, one Principe told him directly ... in that version, Principe claimed that he saw the limo in the garage with both Greer and Kellerman and credits Kellerman with the comment about shots coming at them from all directions. That does nothing to bolster confidence in any witness, regardless of what a fine person they may be.

I didn't know Nick Principe, but I know many on the DellaRosa forum knew him, some had become close friends with him, and he was well thought of there. I felt badly about this because Rich DellaRosa, for one, was so close to Principe and was clearly upset by the news of Greer's whereabouts. But, like you, truth is my only quest, and following the evidence, as we all must, in this particular situation, led to the conclusion that Nick Principe cannot be used as a witness to a hole in the windshield ... not the way Mr. Principe himself framed it.

Encouraging to see good give and take exchanges on issues. Thanks for the oppurtunity to explain our information and conclusion re Mr. Principe's claim.

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Also Doug, while you''re here and in light of your experience with witnesses, I'm wondering if the item I've indicated could have led observers from the rear to conclude that there was a bullet hole in the windshield?

Note: This is speculation, a question; not an offer of proof.

Again, the best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

Dishonest was perhaps too strong of a word and for that I apologize and I appeciate your humility that you may have been confused, mistaken or wrong. I do think that Martin's analysis should have been placed on the sites where the article posted. I do not know you or Barb and the one time I met Josiah I made the mistake of mentioning Jim's name and I incurred his wrath for several minutes. I outlined my concerns in my prior post and I continue to have them. I am not aware of any witnesses viewing the hole from the rear of the limo. I am curious who the odd woman shown in your picture in front of the limo is .There are pictures of the parked limo showing MANY people in front of the limo. I asked Glanges about the limo being cordoned off. It wasn't "moments" but it was also not later in the day. The impression I got was it would have been about 20-30 minutes. However, the people who were there by the vehicle were not placed behind the cordoned off area. They may have been asked to step back but once the Secret Service moved away it was easy for people to step back next to the limo. Glanges would have been inconspicuous and would have had a right to be at the hospital entrance. She was with another person, who in 1999 was still a physician, but was afraid to speak. I have a 90 percent certainty who that person was. Dr Glanges was a no-nonsense person and well respected thus it troubled me that it was suggested that there was something sinister or suspect about her and that Thompson was going to investigate her. I had no problem with that but I had a problem with not reporting back and leaving this "cloud" about her integrity. One would have to ask, as with many of the witnesses, what would have been her motivation for fabricating a story. Did they capitalize it in any way? I thought Nigel Turner and myself were the only ones that had spoken to her but I recently learned that the authors of "Murder Within" may have also talked with her. She, like the others, never sought publicity. I communicated with her sister after her death. I hope you listen to my interview on Black Op radio. It is not a transcript but an audio response. I care deeply about the truth. I have changed my mind about some small details over the years but nothing of substance. The evidence has gotten stronger and I am grateful you brought the Charles Taylor evidence forward. I do believe you made the mistake of taking some evidence from some unreliable sites and used such to buttress your position.

My best,

Doug

Doug,

No problem about the language. The rhetoric gets rough here at times and goes a little further than most people intend or at least would say face-to-face.

You're one up on me re: Barb and Josiah. I've never actually seen either of them. It's amazing what the internet lets us do!

First, about Martin Hinrichs on the windshield. I solicited Martin's comments after the article was posted here and at Lancer. Several people had doubts about John Hunt's analysis of the windshield cracks and I knew Martin to be a graphics professional with a conspiracy inclination. In my experience Martin has a very sharp eye and gives straight answers even when they're not convenient for him. Since you've read the thread you know that he doesn't think the windshield cracks match. However, in the course of our discussions it also became clear that there were many complications related to camera orientation and the fact that the FBI photos were from the front while the other photos were taken from the rear. It also became clear that the cracks and shadows of the cracks appeared differently depending on what material was behind them at the time of the photo and particularly when the photo exposure settings were changed. John Hunt was also kind enough to send me some additional high resolution scans which appeared to match the FBI photos and two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction. So our (or at least my) intent is to go to the NARA and try to get negative scans of all the materials and give it another try. At that time, whatever the outcome, I'll certainly make the results known. Until then, Martin's thread at Duncan MacRae's excellent jfkassassination forum has been discussed here and at Lancer and I think everyone who cares is aware of it. h**p://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,813.0.html

Second, Dr. Glanges. I appreciate that you've had an opportunity to observe here demeanor and that is an important piece of information. Even with that, I still doubt the accuracy of her account. Basically, I find it highly implausible in light of what we know to be true of Parkland at that time. The key is the group photo I posted. As Jim and Jack White have pointed out, the photo portrays the scene at the hospital relatively late in the game. Earlier, the police and Secret Service cordon was not well established and lots of people may have gotten close to the limousine.

However, Dr. Glanges was quite clear that her encounter with the limousine must have occurred after this photo because she says the limousine violently pulled away while she was touching the car. Of course, the limousine is still there in the photo - therefore her account must be that she observed and physically touched the limousine after this photo was taken. That is extremely hard to believe. As Jim noted, there is no one in front of the car at this point and the the final police and Secret Service guards are falling into place. Additionally, you'll notice that the medical personal are not in the emergency bay but segregated into two distinct clumps well away from the limousine. And, while it would certainly be usual for medical personnel to have access to the emergency bay, the emergency entrance to Parkland was closed shortly after the President's arrival and therefore no legitimate excuse existed for any hospital personnel to occupy that position.

Now, according to Dr. Glanges, not one but two people walk up to the limousine and at least one of them actually puts her hand on the car. No one tries to stop them and no one warns them away. Instead of saying something like "step back" or "get away from the car " security waits until she starts talking about a hole in the windshield and then a security man jumps in the car and drives off so violently that her hand is almost injured. Jim posted a very apt description of what the police and Secret Service were actually doing. He quoted Livingstone about Dudman, "... When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle..."

The short version is this:

1) It's highly unlikely that she or any one else could have gotten close to the limousine at the time she says she did

2) It's hard to believe that two people strolled up to the vehicle and laid hands on it and no one said a word about it

3) It's hard to accept that security responded to her by leaping in the car and racing off instead of just telling her to get lost or physically moving her away

4) It must have been very hard on the people standing behind the limousine when it suddenly and unexpectedly lurched toward them

5) I would have thought that someone getting in the car, starting the engine and shifting into reverse would have given her enough time to move her hand

Do I think that Dr. Glanges is lying? No. But to me, based on my experience with witnesses, her account shows all the signs of dramatic enhancement. I'm sure she saw the limousine and I'm sure she thought she saw a bullet hole. But it's so much more interesting to remember she got close and touched the car and caused a dramatic escape from the scene. Also, Her association with Dr. Creshaw may have influenced her memory. As you know, the first public account of her encounter was in the 1992 Crenshaw book JFK:Conspiracy of Silence. Dr. Glanges had followed Dr. Crenshaw to John Peter Smith Hospital where he was chairman of the Surgery Department. The same year that Conspiracy was published, Dr. Glanges succeeded Crenshaw as Department Chair. To be clear, I'm not suggesting a quid pro quo or any type of wrong doing. Simply that an enhanced, dramatic version often results when two old friends are hashing over their shared past.

Also, in terms of the dramatic, I have reservations about the second person who is afraid to speak. That does sound very dramatic, but when Dr. Glanges spoke with you seven years had passed since her public declaration of what transpired at Parkland on November 22, 1963. Yet, from all outward indications, she had prospered. She was a respected professional and a well-known and well-liked community leader. She was a department head at her hospital. What, exactly, does this second person fear? Dr. Glanges told her story and seemed to do all right after she told it. No mystery death, no professional disappointments and social prominence in her city. That doesn't seem like a heavy price to pay for speaking truth to power.

There you have it. I'm sure you'll find many flaws but I hope you'll agree that it's a reasoned position and not just a "smear at any cost" approach.

Also - a heads up. As you can tell from the Taylor information, I like digging. There's a lot of really interesting information in plain sight. In any case, I believe there's news footage of the limousine leaving Parkland!

(And no, it's not from Gary Mack.) With any luck it will show the departure from the emergency bay and we'll know for sure if Dr. Glanges was there. So far I've only seen an index that lists "JFK limousine leaving Parkland Hospital". I'm hoping to get into the actual archives before March. I'll keep you updated and let you know one way or the other.

Best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

This is an intelligent and reasonable reply. If Dr. Glanges or anyone was the sole witness I might have reason to take exception. However, as I have noted before one of the the most important indicators of the reliability of eyewitness is independent corroboration. Here, a number of people, with not one knowing more than one of the other witnesses to the hole, all witnessed a hole in the windshield. Such observations extended from Dallas to Washington D.C. to Dearborn, Michigan. What a phenomena it would be if everyone just happened to fabricate the exact same observation. In Dallas, it was not such a secret. Michaeal Paine talks about it in his Warren Commission testimony. Mark Lane spoke about the limo being flown to Detroit three days after the assassination in opposition to the official report in a speech in 1966. I am not the only one who can observe Dr. Glange's demeanor. TMWKK segment with her was filmed years before I spoke with her. Watch her. does she seem believeable? You judge. She did not go out giving interviews or write books. What would have been the benefit to her to fabricate a story? The only reason she said she would talk with me was that she was going to retire soon. She died one month later at age 59. Why did the other person with her that day not speak? She said it was because of fear for his job. I don't understand the fears but I believe they are real. Why would Malcom Perry not talk with anyone? I encountered this many times. The first time I spoke with Stavis Ellis, though he thad talked with many other people and giveni nterviews. maybe it was because i was an attorney but his words to me were "I can't talk with you. I don't want a bullet in my head." I dont't know with Glanges or anyone exactly how things were at Parkland that day. Once, I informed Ellis that someone questioned his veracity in much the same way that you are questioning Glanges. His response was an angry "were they there?" It is amazing what remarkable people so many of these witnesses were. I had similar responses from Whitaker and even a worker at Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. It seemed very irrational at times to me but there was no question these people felt it. Crenshaw, who I also spoke with several times, talks about the conspiracy of silence. i am not going to attempt to enhance or explain the testimony of any witness. I have found, however, that an intelligent witness wanting to fabricate a story, is likely to give as few details as possible, in order to make it more difficult to catch them in a mistruth. Glanges is very detailed. Her account was always consistent. Often, over time, a witness fabricating a story will forget some of the details they recounted before. This is something that bothers me about Judyth Baker. Glanges did not. Ellis and other witnesses to the hole did not. Ellis, as I noted, thought the hole was lower in the windshield. He did not change. Some witnesses were less certain. Every witness said they saw one hole and all of those with any expertise described it as a bullet hole. Such discrepencies in location do not bother me and candidly I expect such. Small details will change with witnesses over time. it is part of the human condition. Look at your windshiled. Because of the slant of a windshield the difference from below the side of the rear view mirror and lower in the windshield can be only one to two inches. The two people who viewed the windshield for the longest period of time were Taylor and Whitaker, two people who never knew anything of each other. They both described the hole in the exact same spot consistent, curiously enough, with the spiral nebulae in the Altgen's photo As to different locations listen to my interview. Let's say two people come upon a body in the woods within a few minutes of each other. Years later, the first person testifies at a trial that the body was laying in a north-south position with a red shirt on. The second person testifies that he recalled the body laying in a more east-west position and recalls the shirt as being brown. Does that mean that there were two different bodies or that neither person saw a body at all?

I am not going to embellish Glange's account. Hopefully, a film would vindicate her. I wish I had the opportunity to show her the photos of the many people standing in front of the limo at Parkland and have asked her if she could have identified herself. She did tell me that the people who were inside the cordon were never escorted outside of it. If the cordon was so tight who is that odd woman in front of the limo in the photo you posted. Certainly not Secret Service or FBI or a physician. Karl Kinaski made an interesting point. "Within the emergency parking lot, prior to the washing of the limo(sic) and the rebuilding of the limo-top, the limo was driven from one spot to another. Maybe Ms Glanges saw the whole at the first spot, not the (guarded) one shown in the picture? "

I don't know. If you are not comfortable than feel free to discount Glanges. Then you are going to have to discount each of the other witnesses. If you believe one, then the point is proven and then was it some kind of cosmic ciincidence that all of the others witnessed the same phenomena? Did these people engage in some type of conspiracy to deceve the public? Why did George Whitaker ever mention it to anyone besides his family from that day uNovember 25, 1963 until he spoke with me in 1993. was he so clever that he gained access to the White House Garage logs and relaized noone could account for the limo on 11/25/1963 and did he know that the official documents and records of Hess and Eisenhardt would be in such conflict and did he know in 1963 that the HSCA would find conflicts in the limousine chronology?

I was unaware that Martin Hinrichs had conspiracy inclinations. I was told something different but as you noted it was an objective analysis by a person you chose and in your request to him you indicated quite strongly you were looking for a match. Also to your statement that "two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction." If it is so complicated and they can look at a picture and tell they are the same and it would take a few thousand dollars to prove it it sounds somewhat contradictory. I would run, not walk, away from these people holding my wallet. i did not see your posts on Martin on the forum or Lancer on Martin. I saw a piece posted by Bernice on the forum but if you did, I apologize.

Also there was an obvious attempt to hide the defect in the Altgen's photo. It is easy to dissect Glanges or any witness and create doubt, if you desire in your own mind. Let's say someone drops a vase on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces. They pick up one piece and hold it up and say "look, this is not a vase." They set the piece down, pick up another piece, say the same and continue on and on. However, if you put all of the pieces together what do you have? Lo and behold you have a vase! This is analagous to the witnesses and their accounts. You seem reasonable. Why were the police officers dismissed as casual observers? Why was Prencipe dismissed by such irational logic. Were you suggesting thar evry minute of his time was accounted for at Bethesda that evening? If so, how and where did you get that verification. Do you know the distance from Bethesda to the Wh garage?

I believe the photos you showed in your article are different. The only person who can authenticate the first phot is Robert Frazier and you yourself indicated in a post to Pamela that he was not relible. You also indicated to her that it was clear that Taylor clearly was describing a hole in his account. Why the inconsistency and contradiction? You appear reasonable and sincere. If you send me a private message with your address I will send you a couple of things. My only agenda ever has been truth, nothing else. I never sought, nor desired, notierity. The reason I want to finish this book is simply as a promise to these wonderful people whio trusted me enough to share their accounts with me and that they, too, wanted only truth. Many have passed on but it is a promise to them I hope to keep. I sought truth for myself. I understand that no amount of evidence is ever going to convince some people. That is their problem. I have no intent to hide anything even if I suspect someone will attempt to use that information against me. I hope you had the opportunity to listen to my Black Op interview. I believe truth will prevail.

My best,

Doug Weldon

As everyone can see I am a terrible typist. Also, in the next to last paragraph Iwant to clarify that I meant can anyone account for every minute of Greer's time at Bethesda that evening.

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

Greer never left the autopsy room that night according to his WC testimony and mention by others as well. He is included as being present for the autopsy by Sibert & O'Neil. Kellerman too, who also testified to them both being present there all night and included that info in his original report as well. They were present when the morticians prepared the body, and then Greer drove JFK back to the White House for the last time in the wee hours of 11/23 ... leaving Bethesda just minutes before 4am and arriving at the White House at about 4:25am ... times are from memory. The driving distance from Bethesda to the White House and also to the White House Garage is just under 9 miles (a few tenths farther to the WH than to the WHG) ... don't have the numbers in front of me, I have driven the route and looked it up at the time our article was being written.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thank you for the reply. I have the distance from the WH to Bethesda as approximately eight miles but I will not quibble. Also please understand that Washington D.C. was a much different place in 1963 and it was much easier to navigate and then the routes were even more direct. I lived in Alexandria, VA in 1963. What time did the ambulance arrive at Bethesda and when did it leave? Are you suggesting Greer could not have gotten away and been gone for 30-60 minutes. Are you suggesting people were watching him the whole time? Did you know Nick and Greer were good friends? Did you know that Greer also testified that nobody was on the overpass on Elm Street? Did you know that Greer told many stories? Did you ever listen to the telephone interviews with Greer in 1970 and 1971? Did you know that Greer wrote a manuscript and that it is in the possession of a JFK researcher?

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

William Greer died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."

Truly I thank you for your reply and I hope one of the authors of your artcile will reply to my other questions.

Best,

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

I have posted a reply to you on Principe. How interesting that you lived in Alexandria in '63 ... I don't know if you are old enough to have any memories of that weekend, or perhaps saw the funeral procession. Close to history, none the less.

I am aware that Greer made comments about conspiracy, and I am aware he wrote something that was left in the hands of someone he trusted when he passed. From what I have read, it is 14 pages and all the person has said is that there are no big revelations within it. The route to Bethesda then and now, I believe, remains up Wisconsin Ave. No, I never heard any of Greer's phone interviews from the 70s. If they are available somewhere online, I would like to hear them. Could Greer have sneaked away to meet with Principe between 6pm and 8 - 8:30pm? No, I don't think he could have. At 8pm he was helping unload the casket into the morgue, he was then noted by S&O as being present at the autopsy, and he was involved in the partial vs full autopsy discussion sometime after that. From 6 to 7 he was on national television as he drove the ambulance to Bethesda, then still driving the ambulance, letting Jackie out at the entrance to the hospital and a well known delay until driving the ambulance to the back loading dock at 8pm. Please see my response to you re Principe, the timing is in there.. I know Nick Principe's claim about being friends with Greer and his access around the WH and the WHG claims .... I have never seen any of it verified. Love the Methodists vs Catholics line .... those were the days!

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Rich DellaRosa has now uploaded Doug Weldon's presentation from my 1999 Minneapolis Conference, "The Death of JFK":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQKoxjcvgc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKR5dDPTcY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3c7PTrIdug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ov0UiXTgY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE3AnSvpCrg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyI8x1x6kvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99lrRWwgj4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEsKavDElz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUM6U1M1iNE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LV25AE4qeI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpwIxFJ7fsE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GVzzmntkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPtqKnya1cQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLRafWa5w8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm2mji6HO64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhTxz4G0lyk

Also Doug, while you''re here and in light of your experience with witnesses, I'm wondering if the item I've indicated could have led observers from the rear to conclude that there was a bullet hole in the windshield?

Note: This is speculation, a question; not an offer of proof.

Again, the best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

Dishonest was perhaps too strong of a word and for that I apologize and I appeciate your humility that you may have been confused, mistaken or wrong. I do think that Martin's analysis should have been placed on the sites where the article posted. I do not know you or Barb and the one time I met Josiah I made the mistake of mentioning Jim's name and I incurred his wrath for several minutes. I outlined my concerns in my prior post and I continue to have them. I am not aware of any witnesses viewing the hole from the rear of the limo. I am curious who the odd woman shown in your picture in front of the limo is .There are pictures of the parked limo showing MANY people in front of the limo. I asked Glanges about the limo being cordoned off. It wasn't "moments" but it was also not later in the day. The impression I got was it would have been about 20-30 minutes. However, the people who were there by the vehicle were not placed behind the cordoned off area. They may have been asked to step back but once the Secret Service moved away it was easy for people to step back next to the limo. Glanges would have been inconspicuous and would have had a right to be at the hospital entrance. She was with another person, who in 1999 was still a physician, but was afraid to speak. I have a 90 percent certainty who that person was. Dr Glanges was a no-nonsense person and well respected thus it troubled me that it was suggested that there was something sinister or suspect about her and that Thompson was going to investigate her. I had no problem with that but I had a problem with not reporting back and leaving this "cloud" about her integrity. One would have to ask, as with many of the witnesses, what would have been her motivation for fabricating a story. Did they capitalize it in any way? I thought Nigel Turner and myself were the only ones that had spoken to her but I recently learned that the authors of "Murder Within" may have also talked with her. She, like the others, never sought publicity. I communicated with her sister after her death. I hope you listen to my interview on Black Op radio. It is not a transcript but an audio response. I care deeply about the truth. I have changed my mind about some small details over the years but nothing of substance. The evidence has gotten stronger and I am grateful you brought the Charles Taylor evidence forward. I do believe you made the mistake of taking some evidence from some unreliable sites and used such to buttress your position.

My best,

Doug

Doug,

No problem about the language. The rhetoric gets rough here at times and goes a little further than most people intend or at least would say face-to-face.

You're one up on me re: Barb and Josiah. I've never actually seen either of them. It's amazing what the internet lets us do!

First, about Martin Hinrichs on the windshield. I solicited Martin's comments after the article was posted here and at Lancer. Several people had doubts about John Hunt's analysis of the windshield cracks and I knew Martin to be a graphics professional with a conspiracy inclination. In my experience Martin has a very sharp eye and gives straight answers even when they're not convenient for him. Since you've read the thread you know that he doesn't think the windshield cracks match. However, in the course of our discussions it also became clear that there were many complications related to camera orientation and the fact that the FBI photos were from the front while the other photos were taken from the rear. It also became clear that the cracks and shadows of the cracks appeared differently depending on what material was behind them at the time of the photo and particularly when the photo exposure settings were changed. John Hunt was also kind enough to send me some additional high resolution scans which appeared to match the FBI photos and two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction. So our (or at least my) intent is to go to the NARA and try to get negative scans of all the materials and give it another try. At that time, whatever the outcome, I'll certainly make the results known. Until then, Martin's thread at Duncan MacRae's excellent jfkassassination forum has been discussed here and at Lancer and I think everyone who cares is aware of it. h**p://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,813.0.html

Second, Dr. Glanges. I appreciate that you've had an opportunity to observe here demeanor and that is an important piece of information. Even with that, I still doubt the accuracy of her account. Basically, I find it highly implausible in light of what we know to be true of Parkland at that time. The key is the group photo I posted. As Jim and Jack White have pointed out, the photo portrays the scene at the hospital relatively late in the game. Earlier, the police and Secret Service cordon was not well established and lots of people may have gotten close to the limousine.

However, Dr. Glanges was quite clear that her encounter with the limousine must have occurred after this photo because she says the limousine violently pulled away while she was touching the car. Of course, the limousine is still there in the photo - therefore her account must be that she observed and physically touched the limousine after this photo was taken. That is extremely hard to believe. As Jim noted, there is no one in front of the car at this point and the the final police and Secret Service guards are falling into place. Additionally, you'll notice that the medical personal are not in the emergency bay but segregated into two distinct clumps well away from the limousine. And, while it would certainly be usual for medical personnel to have access to the emergency bay, the emergency entrance to Parkland was closed shortly after the President's arrival and therefore no legitimate excuse existed for any hospital personnel to occupy that position.

Now, according to Dr. Glanges, not one but two people walk up to the limousine and at least one of them actually puts her hand on the car. No one tries to stop them and no one warns them away. Instead of saying something like "step back" or "get away from the car " security waits until she starts talking about a hole in the windshield and then a security man jumps in the car and drives off so violently that her hand is almost injured. Jim posted a very apt description of what the police and Secret Service were actually doing. He quoted Livingstone about Dudman, "... When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle..."

The short version is this:

1) It's highly unlikely that she or any one else could have gotten close to the limousine at the time she says she did

2) It's hard to believe that two people strolled up to the vehicle and laid hands on it and no one said a word about it

3) It's hard to accept that security responded to her by leaping in the car and racing off instead of just telling her to get lost or physically moving her away

4) It must have been very hard on the people standing behind the limousine when it suddenly and unexpectedly lurched toward them

5) I would have thought that someone getting in the car, starting the engine and shifting into reverse would have given her enough time to move her hand

Do I think that Dr. Glanges is lying? No. But to me, based on my experience with witnesses, her account shows all the signs of dramatic enhancement. I'm sure she saw the limousine and I'm sure she thought she saw a bullet hole. But it's so much more interesting to remember she got close and touched the car and caused a dramatic escape from the scene. Also, Her association with Dr. Creshaw may have influenced her memory. As you know, the first public account of her encounter was in the 1992 Crenshaw book JFK:Conspiracy of Silence. Dr. Glanges had followed Dr. Crenshaw to John Peter Smith Hospital where he was chairman of the Surgery Department. The same year that Conspiracy was published, Dr. Glanges succeeded Crenshaw as Department Chair. To be clear, I'm not suggesting a quid pro quo or any type of wrong doing. Simply that an enhanced, dramatic version often results when two old friends are hashing over their shared past.

Also, in terms of the dramatic, I have reservations about the second person who is afraid to speak. That does sound very dramatic, but when Dr. Glanges spoke with you seven years had passed since her public declaration of what transpired at Parkland on November 22, 1963. Yet, from all outward indications, she had prospered. She was a respected professional and a well-known and well-liked community leader. She was a department head at her hospital. What, exactly, does this second person fear? Dr. Glanges told her story and seemed to do all right after she told it. No mystery death, no professional disappointments and social prominence in her city. That doesn't seem like a heavy price to pay for speaking truth to power.

There you have it. I'm sure you'll find many flaws but I hope you'll agree that it's a reasoned position and not just a "smear at any cost" approach.

Also - a heads up. As you can tell from the Taylor information, I like digging. There's a lot of really interesting information in plain sight. In any case, I believe there's news footage of the limousine leaving Parkland!

(And no, it's not from Gary Mack.) With any luck it will show the departure from the emergency bay and we'll know for sure if Dr. Glanges was there. So far I've only seen an index that lists "JFK limousine leaving Parkland Hospital". I'm hoping to get into the actual archives before March. I'll keep you updated and let you know one way or the other.

Best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

This is an intelligent and reasonable reply. If Dr. Glanges or anyone was the sole witness I might have reason to take exception. However, as I have noted before one of the the most important indicators of the reliability of eyewitness is independent corroboration. Here, a number of people, with not one knowing more than one of the other witnesses to the hole, all witnessed a hole in the windshield. Such observations extended from Dallas to Washington D.C. to Dearborn, Michigan. What a phenomena it would be if everyone just happened to fabricate the exact same observation. In Dallas, it was not such a secret. Michaeal Paine talks about it in his Warren Commission testimony. Mark Lane spoke about the limo being flown to Detroit three days after the assassination in opposition to the official report in a speech in 1966. I am not the only one who can observe Dr. Glange's demeanor. TMWKK segment with her was filmed years before I spoke with her. Watch her. does she seem believeable? You judge. She did not go out giving interviews or write books. What would have been the benefit to her to fabricate a story? The only reason she said she would talk with me was that she was going to retire soon. She died one month later at age 59. Why did the other person with her that day not speak? She said it was because of fear for his job. I don't understand the fears but I believe they are real. Why would Malcom Perry not talk with anyone? I encountered this many times. The first time I spoke with Stavis Ellis, though he thad talked with many other people and giveni nterviews. maybe it was because i was an attorney but his words to me were "I can't talk with you. I don't want a bullet in my head." I dont't know with Glanges or anyone exactly how things were at Parkland that day. Once, I informed Ellis that someone questioned his veracity in much the same way that you are questioning Glanges. His response was an angry "were they there?" It is amazing what remarkable people so many of these witnesses were. I had similar responses from Whitaker and even a worker at Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. It seemed very irrational at times to me but there was no question these people felt it. Crenshaw, who I also spoke with several times, talks about the conspiracy of silence. i am not going to attempt to enhance or explain the testimony of any witness. I have found, however, that an intelligent witness wanting to fabricate a story, is likely to give as few details as possible, in order to make it more difficult to catch them in a mistruth. Glanges is very detailed. Her account was always consistent. Often, over time, a witness fabricating a story will forget some of the details they recounted before. This is something that bothers me about Judyth Baker. Glanges did not. Ellis and other witnesses to the hole did not. Ellis, as I noted, thought the hole was lower in the windshield. He did not change. Some witnesses were less certain. Every witness said they saw one hole and all of those with any expertise described it as a bullet hole. Such discrepencies in location do not bother me and candidly I expect such. Small details will change with witnesses over time. it is part of the human condition. Look at your windshiled. Because of the slant of a windshield the difference from below the side of the rear view mirror and lower in the windshield can be only one to two inches. The two people who viewed the windshield for the longest period of time were Taylor and Whitaker, two people who never knew anything of each other. They both described the hole in the exact same spot consistent, curiously enough, with the spiral nebulae in the Altgen's photo As to different locations listen to my interview. Let's say two people come upon a body in the woods within a few minutes of each other. Years later, the first person testifies at a trial that the body was laying in a north-south position with a red shirt on. The second person testifies that he recalled the body laying in a more east-west position and recalls the shirt as being brown. Does that mean that there were two different bodies or that neither person saw a body at all?

I am not going to embellish Glange's account. Hopefully, a film would vindicate her. I wish I had the opportunity to show her the photos of the many people standing in front of the limo at Parkland and have asked her if she could have identified herself. She did tell me that the people who were inside the cordon were never escorted outside of it. If the cordon was so tight who is that odd woman in front of the limo in the photo you posted. Certainly not Secret Service or FBI or a physician. Karl Kinaski made an interesting point. "Within the emergency parking lot, prior to the washing of the limo(sic) and the rebuilding of the limo-top, the limo was driven from one spot to another. Maybe Ms Glanges saw the whole at the first spot, not the (guarded) one shown in the picture? "

I don't know. If you are not comfortable than feel free to discount Glanges. Then you are going to have to discount each of the other witnesses. If you believe one, then the point is proven and then was it some kind of cosmic ciincidence that all of the others witnessed the same phenomena? Did these people engage in some type of conspiracy to deceve the public? Why did George Whitaker ever mention it to anyone besides his family from that day uNovember 25, 1963 until he spoke with me in 1993. was he so clever that he gained access to the White House Garage logs and relaized noone could account for the limo on 11/25/1963 and did he know that the official documents and records of Hess and Eisenhardt would be in such conflict and did he know in 1963 that the HSCA would find conflicts in the limousine chronology?

I was unaware that Martin Hinrichs had conspiracy inclinations. I was told something different but as you noted it was an objective analysis by a person you chose and in your request to him you indicated quite strongly you were looking for a match. Also to your statement that "two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction." If it is so complicated and they can look at a picture and tell they are the same and it would take a few thousand dollars to prove it it sounds somewhat contradictory. I would run, not walk, away from these people holding my wallet. i did not see your posts on Martin on the forum or Lancer on Martin. I saw a piece posted by Bernice on the forum but if you did, I apologize.

Also there was an obvious attempt to hide the defect in the Altgen's photo. It is easy to dissect Glanges or any witness and create doubt, if you desire in your own mind. Let's say someone drops a vase on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces. They pick up one piece and hold it up and say "look, this is not a vase." They set the piece down, pick up another piece, say the same and continue on and on. However, if you put all of the pieces together what do you have? Lo and behold you have a vase! This is analagous to the witnesses and their accounts. You seem reasonable. Why were the police officers dismissed as casual observers? Why was Prencipe dismissed by such irational logic. Were you suggesting thar evry minute of his time was accounted for at Bethesda that evening? If so, how and where did you get that verification. Do you know the distance from Bethesda to the Wh garage?

I believe the photos you showed in your article are different. The only person who can authenticate the first phot is Robert Frazier and you yourself indicated in a post to Pamela that he was not relible. You also indicated to her that it was clear that Taylor clearly was describing a hole in his account. Why the inconsistency and contradiction? You appear reasonable and sincere. If you send me a private message with your address I will send you a couple of things. My only agenda ever has been truth, nothing else. I never sought, nor desired, notierity. The reason I want to finish this book is simply as a promise to these wonderful people whio trusted me enough to share their accounts with me and that they, too, wanted only truth. Many have passed on but it is a promise to them I hope to keep. I sought truth for myself. I understand that no amount of evidence is ever going to convince some people. That is their problem. I have no intent to hide anything even if I suspect someone will attempt to use that information against me. I hope you had the opportunity to listen to my Black Op interview. I believe truth will prevail.

My best,

Doug Weldon

As everyone can see I am a terrible typist. Also, in the next to last paragraph Iwant to clarify that I meant can anyone account for every minute of Greer's time at Bethesda that evening.

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

Greer never left the autopsy room that night according to his WC testimony and mention by others as well. He is included as being present for the autopsy by Sibert & O'Neil. Kellerman too, who also testified to them both being present there all night and included that info in his original report as well. They were present when the morticians prepared the body, and then Greer drove JFK back to the White House for the last time in the wee hours of 11/23 ... leaving Bethesda just minutes before 4am and arriving at the White House at about 4:25am ... times are from memory. The driving distance from Bethesda to the White House and also to the White House Garage is just under 9 miles (a few tenths farther to the WH than to the WHG) ... don't have the numbers in front of me, I have driven the route and looked it up at the time our article was being written.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thank you for the reply. I have the distance from the WH to Bethesda as approximately eight miles but I will not quibble. Also please understand that Washington D.C. was a much different place in 1963 and it was much easier to navigate and then the routes were even more direct. I lived in Alexandria, VA in 1963. What time did the ambulance arrive at Bethesda and when did it leave? Are you suggesting Greer could not have gotten away and been gone for 30-60 minutes. Are you suggesting people were watching him the whole time? Did you know Nick and Greer were good friends? Did you know that Greer also testified that nobody was on the overpass on Elm Street? Did you know that Greer told many stories? Did you ever listen to the telephone interviews with Greer in 1970 and 1971? Did you know that Greer wrote a manuscript and that it is in the possession of a JFK researcher?

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

William Greer died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."

Truly I thank you for your reply and I hope one of the authors of your artcile will reply to my other questions.

Best,

Doug Weldon

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Doug,

You need to make the arguments here and cite the interview for additional discussion. Most of the members are not going to go there without having a very good idea what hey will hear. Please elaborate your position. Your presence will make a difference, but you have to state your case.

Jim

An exchange here between Mr. Fetzer and myself, unrelated to the discussion with Doug Weldon below, deleted for the sake of length/space.-BJ

Jim:

Almost the entire interview is a rebuttal to the article "Eternal return." I will be glad to respond to the authors of the article after they have listened to it. Even here, this woman named Barb distorts the evidence. I do not know if it is done intentionally or is just sloppy. Robert Livingstone wrote to David Lifton on May 2, 1992: " Also relevant, I learned from a former classmate of mine from Stanford who was then a reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch, Richard Dudman, that he was one of the White House press group that accompnied the President to Dallas. Not getting much information from the Parkland Hospital, Dick went out to inspect the Lincoln limousine in which the President and Connolly and their wives had been riding. He thought he saw, for certain that there was a through-and-through hole in the upper left margin of the windshield. He described the spaling -splintering of glass at the margins as though the missile had entered from the front of the vehicle. When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle.

If there were a through-and-through windshield penetration, in that location, according to Dick, it had to come from the front."

The article by this Barb, a Jerry Logan, and Josiah Thompson, was one of the sloppiest,most irresponsible, and dishonest articles I have ever read. I spoke with Dudman. It was obvious he was pressured by the government by tactics that appear similar to what happened to Taylor.. Listen to my interview. Dudman's fear destroyed his friendship with Livingstone. Let's say I witnessed a murder. I describe it in great detail and the perpetrator confesses. Later. after much pressure, I recant my testimony and the perpetrator now says he did not commit the crime. According to the logic of the authors of the article, they would set the perpetrator free, and continue to look elsewhere for another perpetrator. The real world does not work that way and the legal system certainly does not for reasons at least one of the authors know very well. When the authors sought the expertise to verify a match to two photographs they published (with no way to authenticate the first picture) they convieniently failed to share that analysis by Martin Heinrichs with the members of this forum that the pictures DID NOT match. They omitted witnesses. They mischaracterized witnesses. They impugned the character od DOCTOR EVALEA GLANGES and suggested there was something "suspect" about her and they were going to investigate. Seven months later we do not know the results of that "investigation." They dismiss Nick Prencipe by making sloppy conclusions and having no understanding of the personalities involved or the geography of Washington D.C. In my interview I allow the deceased Nick Prencipe to respond himself to these erroneous assumptions. In fact, I am quite certain that the authors of this article never spoke to even one of the witnesses they seek to dismiss. If there is not a fact, it appears to be no problem to fabricate one. For those who claim their expertise in such, there appears to be no understanding of evidence or witnesses. In Doug Horne's book he quotes Ned Price, the Head of Restoration at a major motion picture studio, to say upon viewing frame 317 of the Zapruder Film, "Oh, that's horrible, that's just terrible. I can't believe its such a bad fake." I would have a similar reponse to the article "Eternal Return." I am going to have to take exception Jim. If anyone wants to how how bad the article is they need to START by listening to my interview a few weeks ago. This is not an exercise for me. I am willing to engage in intelligent discussion but not a he-thinks me-thinks. It is a pleasure to be on this forum.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Welcome to the forum, Doug. As James Fetzer already noted to you, you do need to make whatever case you want here on the forum. Jerry, Josiah and I invited critique from all when we originally posted the article, and, of course, are certainly interested still in any errors or misrepresentations anyone thinks were made and any other comments one might have. Jim apparently invited you to the forum to do just that. I'm sure you understand that waxing accusatory generalities do not make a base for any discussion or response; nor does any overall audio interview on another site. I am sure that if you choose to present any problems, errors, misrepresentations, etc you say are in the article here with specificity and complete cites in context, of course, one or more of us will be happy to respond. And other members of the forum will probably join the discussion as well. That's one reason having everything spelled out on the forum table is important.

Bests to you,

this woman named Barb ;-)

Barb:

Thank you. I simply do not have the time to transcribe a two hour talk for the forum. I am not making a personal attack against you and the other authors of the article but only the content. I do not know you or Jerry and I have only met Josiah Thompson once. SSID is an important book and I am stating so in my book. I appreciated the new knowledge about Charles Taylor but in my analysis, it reinforced the position I present as Richard Dudman underwent a similar experience. Jim did not invite me to the forum as my first contact with him in a number of years was this past week. Jim and I don't agree on everything and I thought David Lifton's post about Josiah Thompson not being an "agent" was very appropriate. I hope you see specificity in my prior comments and concerns such as not posting here or on Lancer the careful analysis by Martin Heinrich concluding that the two windshields used in the article were not a match. I do not believe that the first picture shows the windshield that was in the limousine in Dallas. Critical witnesses such as George Whitaker were omitted. Names were misspelled. Information was utilized from a site that is filled with inaccuracies. I have sometimes noticed that people who have claimed expertise on certain facets of the assassination often know very little. Documents are conflicting and there has to be a reasonable analysis of those documents. As for an example of something I consider sloppy or even a fabrication in your article is the statement, "Although it took a few moments to place a law enforcement cordon around the limousine, law enforcement officers then kept civilians back from the limousine: " What is your source of information for this. This is entirely contrary to the photographic evidence at Parkland and the observation of witnesses. A cordon was eventualy established but the people who were inside that cordon, including officers, hospital personnel, and other civilians were not removed and placed outside of it. Were any witnesses interviewed. These were decent, ordinary citizens. People like Whitaker,Glanges, Ellis, and Prencipe were very principled people. They know what they saw. I understand eye-witness testimony and am well aware of observations made about it by the foremost expert in the world, Elizabeth Loftus of Harvard. I have heard thousands of witness testify in my career. When I wanted to find out more about the limousine after the assassination I went to the home of Willard Hess, whose company made the limousine for Kennedy and refurbished it for Johnson. I often spoke with him and exchanged correspondence. I talked with a number of his workers who were involved. i wanted to understand them. Every witness I talked with I would ask other witnesses about them,i.e., were they honest, did they have a tendency to exaggerate, etc. Certain witnesses I would not use. In my interview I indicateIi could not use Madeline Brown without further corroboration to state what I believe is true, that Lyndon Johnson was aware of what is going on. What is the explanation for characterizing two trained police officers (and Elis had a career in Military Intelligence) as "casual" observers. I let the evidence lead me, not vice versa.

My best,

Doig

My heavens, Doug, neither I nor anyone else ever expected you to transcribe and post your complete Black Op interview. Since you expressed taking issue with our article, we were just expecting some specific examples we could address rather than vague generalities about sloppy research, fabrication, use of unchecked information from other sites and principled witnesses. etc. Like Jerry, I am glad you meant no personal attack nor offense; also like Jerry, I do think your rhetoric was quite strong, given as you note, that you do not even know us. I don't know you either, so I would never presume to know the depth of your knowledge, any areas of expertise, your abilities with documents and witnesses, etc. I am happy to see that with the dust settled on all of that, you and Jerry have had some good exchanges, and I see he has addressed a few of the issues you had concerns about in our article.

I would like to address the issue of Nick Principe. You note above he was a person of principle, and in a post to Jerry yesterday, you questioned what sort of " "irational [sic] logic" went into our dismissing him as a witness. I am surprised, given your witness expertise and investigative skills, that you remained unaware of the problem with Principe's claim due to the whereabouts of Greer during the time period related by Principe. Either not knowing the evidence, or never fact checking Principe's account, or both.

I responded to that "irational [sic] logic" post with the information about Greer's whereabouts that night. Yes, his whereabouts and involvement that night are known, not just from Greer himself, but by mention of him in the accounts of others, including Sibert & O'Neil. I have spoken to both Sibert and O'Neil. O'Neil mentioned Greer in relation to discussions in the morgue about a full vs partial autopsy as well as Greer and Kellerman's presence throughout the autopsy. I was talking to O'Neil about something autopsy related and that was just part of the info he related to me.

By his own telling, Principe places a time constraint on his claimed meeting with Greer near the White House grounds. You are familiar with an email Principe sent to Pamela McElwain-Brown after she had interviewed him by phone some years ago, as you were bcc'd on that letter ... which you later forwarded to Bernice Moore who posted it here on the forum in July of '08. I reposted that letter on the moderated group last year and you and Bernice then verified it as being authentic. Here is that letter:

QUOTE

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

END QUOTE

There can be no quibble about exactly what Principe claimed happened ... or where ... or when. His

account puts his meeting with Greer sometime between 6pm (when the plane carrying the family, and Greer too) arrived back from Dallas, and 8pm when the plane carrying the limo arrived at Andrews and preparations ... and transmissions ... were underway for returning the limo to the WH garage.

We know from other documents that by 9pm, the limo was in the garage, parked in a bay, and covered up.

Even without accounting for Greer's whereabouts all night .... which has been done ... his whereabouts from the time the plane carrying JFK's body landed at Andrews, proceeded to Bethesda, the body was offloaded into the morgue and the autopsy was getting underway, are clearly known.

That is Principe's timeframe by his own telling. And during that time, Greer was on national television for much of the time, offloading the casket into the ambulance after arriving on the plane at 6pm, driving that ambulance to Bethesda, entering the grounds there at 7pm. Then, helping to offload the casket at the back dock and escorting it into the morgue at 8pm and being present and accounted for by Sibert & O'Neil as being present at the autopsy.

Did Nick Principe ever see the limo/windshield? Maybe yes, maybe no. No one can say for sure. But his own story, in his own words, is impossible to reconcile in any way with known facts and he therefore fails as a reliable witness.

The evidence led us to this inescapable conclusion. Nothing "vice versa."

By the way, Rich DellaRosa related a different telling of Principe's claim, one Principe told him directly ... in that version, Principe claimed that he saw the limo in the garage with both Greer and Kellerman and credits Kellerman with the comment about shots coming at them from all directions. That does nothing to bolster confidence in any witness, regardless of what a fine person they may be.

I didn't know Nick Principe, but I know many on the DellaRosa forum knew him, some had become close friends with him, and he was well thought of there. I felt badly about this because Rich DellaRosa, for one, was so close to Principe and was clearly upset by the news of Greer's whereabouts. But, like you, truth is my only quest, and following the evidence, as we all must, in this particular situation, led to the conclusion that Nick Principe cannot be used as a witness to a hole in the windshield ... not the way Mr. Principe himself framed it.

Encouraging to see good give and take exchanges on issues. Thanks for the oppurtunity to explain our information and conclusion re Mr. Principe's claim.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thank you. It is spelled Prencipe. I, in all my many contacts with Nick, never heard that "

By the way, Rich DellaRosa related a different telling of Principe's claim, one Principe told him directly ... in that version, Principe claimed that he saw the limo in the garage with both Greer and Kellerman and credits Kellerman with the comment about shots coming at them from all directions."

Do you have any e-mails or anything from Nick saying Greer or Kellerman were with him in the garage. I have a tremendous amount of material from Nick and I promise you that I never heard such claims. I did not know that Nick and Rich had ever met each other. I am attaching two e-mails from Nick. In the second e-mail I am eliminating the first sentence only because it is critical of another researcher and I don't think it's constructive in this discussion. You are correct that I know very little about you and Jerry and my rhetoric was very strong but the article upset me as I knew these people and I evaluate evidence very carefully and there is much I do not use even though it would be supportive of some of my conclusions. I do not have problems with the responses from you and Jerry. I thought my questions and observations have been cleare. Why were trained police officers considered "casual observers?" Were you aware that Dudman was subjected to similar treatment as Taylor and would never speak about the assassination again and ended his close friendship with Livingstone? Did you know that it took more than "moments" to cordon off the limousine and that the people who were already inside the cordon were not removed? I have not heard from Jerry yet about if the limo was so tightly cordoned then who is that odd lady standing directly in front of the limo? Did any of you ever speak with any of these witnesses? Why did you leave George Whitaker out as one of the witnesses? Did Glanges sound credible on TMWKK? Did you know that Nigel Turner filmed that interview with her years before? What do you think the motivation for these people to lie was? How did all these people who did not know each other come up with the same lie? Why were these people afraid and people like Whitaker never mention such outside his own family since November 25,1963? Your speculation on the latter questions are fine. Have I misrepresented anything in MIDP or TMWKK? Do you acknowledge that Greer changed his story many times and obviously lied to the WC about there being no people on the overpass? Does thataffect his credibility in your mind? My 1999 presentation will soon be posted on you-tube. I have changed my thoughts on some minor items and of course have learned a great deal more in the past ten years but it only adds and does not detract from the evidence and my conclusions. I will be glad to mail you a cd of my first interview with Nick so you can evaluate him for yourself. I would hope Jerry would let me know where he posted the study by Martin Hinrich on this forum and Lancer. I do want to find truth and I have no problem with people who seek the same andare willing to address the evidence objectively. If I believe I am ever wrong on something I will be the first to admit it. I judge people by how I perceive them. You and Jerry have been very decent in your responses to me. I believe this exchange can be constructive for all of us.

(BTW "Monk" is not "Rich")

My best,

Doug

nprince9@juno.com wrote:

> Doug

> Thanks--getting along pretty good

> Pics you asked for are in the mail

> Monk had posted that I was with Bill Greer at the white house garage when

> I saw the hole

> That was incorrect and I am sure that you have it on our interview:

> When I saw Bill Greer--for the first time after he came back from Dallas,

> he was standing on West executive ave. between the White house and the

> Ex. Office bldg.

> I was there most of the evening keeping up with and getting things done

> when necessary--we had a constant communication with the detail at AAFB

> I went to him and we shook hands, at which time he stated that "we sure

> missed you guys today" also that bullets were coming from everywhere and

> that one had come thru the front windshield.

> Based on this, when I got a break later, I jumped on my motor and went to

> the SS garage

> There were a number of persons around and activity--I simply walked in

> and up to the limo that was backed into its stall--the cover was

> partially drawn back and I pulled it back to a point where I saw the T

> and T hole. I dont think I even put the cover back--maybe--but the hole

> I DID SEE

>

> Nick

nprince9@juno.com wrote:

> Doug

> .... she keeps saying that

> I talked to Greer early in the evening.

> I never said that and incidentally, the evening runs to midnight. I dont

> really know exactly what time it was. If I looked at my watch that

> night, I knew the time, but that was a long time ago.

> I will also say, I have been in theW.H. many times and in the SS and WH

> garages many times and NEVER was I EVER asked to log in. She just cant

> believe that I guess.

> She seems to get more and more frustrated with time.

> Bill Greer, as I remember reading, did change his story, and eventually

> came up with all the shots coming from the rear--probably to keek in line

> with the Warren commission procedure. Who knows what went thru his head

> then--and later. I wont change my story, some of the facts are dimmed a

> bit, but basic facts are still the same. I will keep you advised of

> anything new I turn up.

> Have a great holiday.

>

> Regards Nick

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Also Doug, while you''re here and in light of your experience with witnesses, I'm wondering if the item I've indicated could have led observers from the rear to conclude that there was a bullet hole in the windshield?

Note: This is speculation, a question; not an offer of proof.

Again, the best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

Dishonest was perhaps too strong of a word and for that I apologize and I appeciate your humility that you may have been confused, mistaken or wrong. I do think that Martin's analysis should have been placed on the sites where the article posted. I do not know you or Barb and the one time I met Josiah I made the mistake of mentioning Jim's name and I incurred his wrath for several minutes. I outlined my concerns in my prior post and I continue to have them. I am not aware of any witnesses viewing the hole from the rear of the limo. I am curious who the odd woman shown in your picture in front of the limo is .There are pictures of the parked limo showing MANY people in front of the limo. I asked Glanges about the limo being cordoned off. It wasn't "moments" but it was also not later in the day. The impression I got was it would have been about 20-30 minutes. However, the people who were there by the vehicle were not placed behind the cordoned off area. They may have been asked to step back but once the Secret Service moved away it was easy for people to step back next to the limo. Glanges would have been inconspicuous and would have had a right to be at the hospital entrance. She was with another person, who in 1999 was still a physician, but was afraid to speak. I have a 90 percent certainty who that person was. Dr Glanges was a no-nonsense person and well respected thus it troubled me that it was suggested that there was something sinister or suspect about her and that Thompson was going to investigate her. I had no problem with that but I had a problem with not reporting back and leaving this "cloud" about her integrity. One would have to ask, as with many of the witnesses, what would have been her motivation for fabricating a story. Did they capitalize it in any way? I thought Nigel Turner and myself were the only ones that had spoken to her but I recently learned that the authors of "Murder Within" may have also talked with her. She, like the others, never sought publicity. I communicated with her sister after her death. I hope you listen to my interview on Black Op radio. It is not a transcript but an audio response. I care deeply about the truth. I have changed my mind about some small details over the years but nothing of substance. The evidence has gotten stronger and I am grateful you brought the Charles Taylor evidence forward. I do believe you made the mistake of taking some evidence from some unreliable sites and used such to buttress your position.

My best,

Doug

Doug,

No problem about the language. The rhetoric gets rough here at times and goes a little further than most people intend or at least would say face-to-face.

You're one up on me re: Barb and Josiah. I've never actually seen either of them. It's amazing what the internet lets us do!

First, about Martin Hinrichs on the windshield. I solicited Martin's comments after the article was posted here and at Lancer. Several people had doubts about John Hunt's analysis of the windshield cracks and I knew Martin to be a graphics professional with a conspiracy inclination. In my experience Martin has a very sharp eye and gives straight answers even when they're not convenient for him. Since you've read the thread you know that he doesn't think the windshield cracks match. However, in the course of our discussions it also became clear that there were many complications related to camera orientation and the fact that the FBI photos were from the front while the other photos were taken from the rear. It also became clear that the cracks and shadows of the cracks appeared differently depending on what material was behind them at the time of the photo and particularly when the photo exposure settings were changed. John Hunt was also kind enough to send me some additional high resolution scans which appeared to match the FBI photos and two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction. So our (or at least my) intent is to go to the NARA and try to get negative scans of all the materials and give it another try. At that time, whatever the outcome, I'll certainly make the results known. Until then, Martin's thread at Duncan MacRae's excellent jfkassassination forum has been discussed here and at Lancer and I think everyone who cares is aware of it. h**p://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,813.0.html

Second, Dr. Glanges. I appreciate that you've had an opportunity to observe here demeanor and that is an important piece of information. Even with that, I still doubt the accuracy of her account. Basically, I find it highly implausible in light of what we know to be true of Parkland at that time. The key is the group photo I posted. As Jim and Jack White have pointed out, the photo portrays the scene at the hospital relatively late in the game. Earlier, the police and Secret Service cordon was not well established and lots of people may have gotten close to the limousine.

However, Dr. Glanges was quite clear that her encounter with the limousine must have occurred after this photo because she says the limousine violently pulled away while she was touching the car. Of course, the limousine is still there in the photo - therefore her account must be that she observed and physically touched the limousine after this photo was taken. That is extremely hard to believe. As Jim noted, there is no one in front of the car at this point and the the final police and Secret Service guards are falling into place. Additionally, you'll notice that the medical personal are not in the emergency bay but segregated into two distinct clumps well away from the limousine. And, while it would certainly be usual for medical personnel to have access to the emergency bay, the emergency entrance to Parkland was closed shortly after the President's arrival and therefore no legitimate excuse existed for any hospital personnel to occupy that position.

Now, according to Dr. Glanges, not one but two people walk up to the limousine and at least one of them actually puts her hand on the car. No one tries to stop them and no one warns them away. Instead of saying something like "step back" or "get away from the car " security waits until she starts talking about a hole in the windshield and then a security man jumps in the car and drives off so violently that her hand is almost injured. Jim posted a very apt description of what the police and Secret Service were actually doing. He quoted Livingstone about Dudman, "... When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle..."

The short version is this:

1) It's highly unlikely that she or any one else could have gotten close to the limousine at the time she says she did

2) It's hard to believe that two people strolled up to the vehicle and laid hands on it and no one said a word about it

3) It's hard to accept that security responded to her by leaping in the car and racing off instead of just telling her to get lost or physically moving her away

4) It must have been very hard on the people standing behind the limousine when it suddenly and unexpectedly lurched toward them

5) I would have thought that someone getting in the car, starting the engine and shifting into reverse would have given her enough time to move her hand

Do I think that Dr. Glanges is lying? No. But to me, based on my experience with witnesses, her account shows all the signs of dramatic enhancement. I'm sure she saw the limousine and I'm sure she thought she saw a bullet hole. But it's so much more interesting to remember she got close and touched the car and caused a dramatic escape from the scene. Also, Her association with Dr. Creshaw may have influenced her memory. As you know, the first public account of her encounter was in the 1992 Crenshaw book JFK:Conspiracy of Silence. Dr. Glanges had followed Dr. Crenshaw to John Peter Smith Hospital where he was chairman of the Surgery Department. The same year that Conspiracy was published, Dr. Glanges succeeded Crenshaw as Department Chair. To be clear, I'm not suggesting a quid pro quo or any type of wrong doing. Simply that an enhanced, dramatic version often results when two old friends are hashing over their shared past.

Also, in terms of the dramatic, I have reservations about the second person who is afraid to speak. That does sound very dramatic, but when Dr. Glanges spoke with you seven years had passed since her public declaration of what transpired at Parkland on November 22, 1963. Yet, from all outward indications, she had prospered. She was a respected professional and a well-known and well-liked community leader. She was a department head at her hospital. What, exactly, does this second person fear? Dr. Glanges told her story and seemed to do all right after she told it. No mystery death, no professional disappointments and social prominence in her city. That doesn't seem like a heavy price to pay for speaking truth to power.

There you have it. I'm sure you'll find many flaws but I hope you'll agree that it's a reasoned position and not just a "smear at any cost" approach.

Also - a heads up. As you can tell from the Taylor information, I like digging. There's a lot of really interesting information in plain sight. In any case, I believe there's news footage of the limousine leaving Parkland!

(And no, it's not from Gary Mack.) With any luck it will show the departure from the emergency bay and we'll know for sure if Dr. Glanges was there. So far I've only seen an index that lists "JFK limousine leaving Parkland Hospital". I'm hoping to get into the actual archives before March. I'll keep you updated and let you know one way or the other.

Best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

This is an intelligent and reasonable reply. If Dr. Glanges or anyone was the sole witness I might have reason to take exception. However, as I have noted before one of the the most important indicators of the reliability of eyewitness is independent corroboration. Here, a number of people, with not one knowing more than one of the other witnesses to the hole, all witnessed a hole in the windshield. Such observations extended from Dallas to Washington D.C. to Dearborn, Michigan. What a phenomena it would be if everyone just happened to fabricate the exact same observation. In Dallas, it was not such a secret. Michaeal Paine talks about it in his Warren Commission testimony. Mark Lane spoke about the limo being flown to Detroit three days after the assassination in opposition to the official report in a speech in 1966. I am not the only one who can observe Dr. Glange's demeanor. TMWKK segment with her was filmed years before I spoke with her. Watch her. does she seem believeable? You judge. She did not go out giving interviews or write books. What would have been the benefit to her to fabricate a story? The only reason she said she would talk with me was that she was going to retire soon. She died one month later at age 59. Why did the other person with her that day not speak? She said it was because of fear for his job. I don't understand the fears but I believe they are real. Why would Malcom Perry not talk with anyone? I encountered this many times. The first time I spoke with Stavis Ellis, though he thad talked with many other people and giveni nterviews. maybe it was because i was an attorney but his words to me were "I can't talk with you. I don't want a bullet in my head." I dont't know with Glanges or anyone exactly how things were at Parkland that day. Once, I informed Ellis that someone questioned his veracity in much the same way that you are questioning Glanges. His response was an angry "were they there?" It is amazing what remarkable people so many of these witnesses were. I had similar responses from Whitaker and even a worker at Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. It seemed very irrational at times to me but there was no question these people felt it. Crenshaw, who I also spoke with several times, talks about the conspiracy of silence. i am not going to attempt to enhance or explain the testimony of any witness. I have found, however, that an intelligent witness wanting to fabricate a story, is likely to give as few details as possible, in order to make it more difficult to catch them in a mistruth. Glanges is very detailed. Her account was always consistent. Often, over time, a witness fabricating a story will forget some of the details they recounted before. This is something that bothers me about Judyth Baker. Glanges did not. Ellis and other witnesses to the hole did not. Ellis, as I noted, thought the hole was lower in the windshield. He did not change. Some witnesses were less certain. Every witness said they saw one hole and all of those with any expertise described it as a bullet hole. Such discrepencies in location do not bother me and candidly I expect such. Small details will change with witnesses over time. it is part of the human condition. Look at your windshiled. Because of the slant of a windshield the difference from below the side of the rear view mirror and lower in the windshield can be only one to two inches. The two people who viewed the windshield for the longest period of time were Taylor and Whitaker, two people who never knew anything of each other. They both described the hole in the exact same spot consistent, curiously enough, with the spiral nebulae in the Altgen's photo As to different locations listen to my interview. Let's say two people come upon a body in the woods within a few minutes of each other. Years later, the first person testifies at a trial that the body was laying in a north-south position with a red shirt on. The second person testifies that he recalled the body laying in a more east-west position and recalls the shirt as being brown. Does that mean that there were two different bodies or that neither person saw a body at all?

I am not going to embellish Glange's account. Hopefully, a film would vindicate her. I wish I had the opportunity to show her the photos of the many people standing in front of the limo at Parkland and have asked her if she could have identified herself. She did tell me that the people who were inside the cordon were never escorted outside of it. If the cordon was so tight who is that odd woman in front of the limo in the photo you posted. Certainly not Secret Service or FBI or a physician. Karl Kinaski made an interesting point. "Within the emergency parking lot, prior to the washing of the limo(sic) and the rebuilding of the limo-top, the limo was driven from one spot to another. Maybe Ms Glanges saw the whole at the first spot, not the (guarded) one shown in the picture? "

I don't know. If you are not comfortable than feel free to discount Glanges. Then you are going to have to discount each of the other witnesses. If you believe one, then the point is proven and then was it some kind of cosmic ciincidence that all of the others witnessed the same phenomena? Did these people engage in some type of conspiracy to deceve the public? Why did George Whitaker ever mention it to anyone besides his family from that day uNovember 25, 1963 until he spoke with me in 1993. was he so clever that he gained access to the White House Garage logs and relaized noone could account for the limo on 11/25/1963 and did he know that the official documents and records of Hess and Eisenhardt would be in such conflict and did he know in 1963 that the HSCA would find conflicts in the limousine chronology?

I was unaware that Martin Hinrichs had conspiracy inclinations. I was told something different but as you noted it was an objective analysis by a person you chose and in your request to him you indicated quite strongly you were looking for a match. Also to your statement that "two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction." If it is so complicated and they can look at a picture and tell they are the same and it would take a few thousand dollars to prove it it sounds somewhat contradictory. I would run, not walk, away from these people holding my wallet. i did not see your posts on Martin on the forum or Lancer on Martin. I saw a piece posted by Bernice on the forum but if you did, I apologize.

Also there was an obvious attempt to hide the defect in the Altgen's photo. It is easy to dissect Glanges or any witness and create doubt, if you desire in your own mind. Let's say someone drops a vase on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces. They pick up one piece and hold it up and say "look, this is not a vase." They set the piece down, pick up another piece, say the same and continue on and on. However, if you put all of the pieces together what do you have? Lo and behold you have a vase! This is analagous to the witnesses and their accounts. You seem reasonable. Why were the police officers dismissed as casual observers? Why was Prencipe dismissed by such irational logic. Were you suggesting thar evry minute of his time was accounted for at Bethesda that evening? If so, how and where did you get that verification. Do you know the distance from Bethesda to the Wh garage?

I believe the photos you showed in your article are different. The only person who can authenticate the first phot is Robert Frazier and you yourself indicated in a post to Pamela that he was not relible. You also indicated to her that it was clear that Taylor clearly was describing a hole in his account. Why the inconsistency and contradiction? You appear reasonable and sincere. If you send me a private message with your address I will send you a couple of things. My only agenda ever has been truth, nothing else. I never sought, nor desired, notierity. The reason I want to finish this book is simply as a promise to these wonderful people whio trusted me enough to share their accounts with me and that they, too, wanted only truth. Many have passed on but it is a promise to them I hope to keep. I sought truth for myself. I understand that no amount of evidence is ever going to convince some people. That is their problem. I have no intent to hide anything even if I suspect someone will attempt to use that information against me. I hope you had the opportunity to listen to my Black Op interview. I believe truth will prevail.

My best,

Doug Weldon

As everyone can see I am a terrible typist. Also, in the next to last paragraph Iwant to clarify that I meant can anyone account for every minute of Greer's time at Bethesda that evening.

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

Greer never left the autopsy room that night according to his WC testimony and mention by others as well. He is included as being present for the autopsy by Sibert & O'Neil. Kellerman too, who also testified to them both being present there all night and included that info in his original report as well. They were present when the morticians prepared the body, and then Greer drove JFK back to the White House for the last time in the wee hours of 11/23 ... leaving Bethesda just minutes before 4am and arriving at the White House at about 4:25am ... times are from memory. The driving distance from Bethesda to the White House and also to the White House Garage is just under 9 miles (a few tenths farther to the WH than to the WHG) ... don't have the numbers in front of me, I have driven the route and looked it up at the time our article was being written.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thank you for the reply. I have the distance from the WH to Bethesda as approximately eight miles but I will not quibble. Also please understand that Washington D.C. was a much different place in 1963 and it was much easier to navigate and then the routes were even more direct. I lived in Alexandria, VA in 1963. What time did the ambulance arrive at Bethesda and when did it leave? Are you suggesting Greer could not have gotten away and been gone for 30-60 minutes. Are you suggesting people were watching him the whole time? Did you know Nick and Greer were good friends? Did you know that Greer also testified that nobody was on the overpass on Elm Street? Did you know that Greer told many stories? Did you ever listen to the telephone interviews with Greer in 1970 and 1971? Did you know that Greer wrote a manuscript and that it is in the possession of a JFK researcher?

There is evidence that Greer also believed that John F. Kennedy had been a victim of a conspiracy. The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families".

William Greer died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."

Truly I thank you for your reply and I hope one of the authors of your artcile will reply to my other questions.

Best,

Doug Weldon

Hi Doug,

I have posted a reply to you on Principe. How interesting that you lived in Alexandria in '63 ... I don't know if you are old enough to have any memories of that weekend, or perhaps saw the funeral procession. Close to history, none the less.

I am aware that Greer made comments about conspiracy, and I am aware he wrote something that was left in the hands of someone he trusted when he passed. From what I have read, it is 14 pages and all the person has said is that there are no big revelations within it. The route to Bethesda then and now, I believe, remains up Wisconsin Ave. No, I never heard any of Greer's phone interviews from the 70s. If they are available somewhere online, I would like to hear them. Could Greer have sneaked away to meet with Principe between 6pm and 8 - 8:30pm? No, I don't think he could have. At 8pm he was helping unload the casket into the morgue, he was then noted by S&O as being present at the autopsy, and he was involved in the partial vs full autopsy discussion sometime after that. From 6 to 7 he was on national television as he drove the ambulance to Bethesda, then still driving the ambulance, letting Jackie out at the entrance to the hospital and a well known delay until driving the ambulance to the back loading dock at 8pm. Please see my response to you re Principe, the timing is in there.. I know Nick Principe's claim about being friends with Greer and his access around the WH and the WHG claims .... I have never seen any of it verified. Love the Methodists vs Catholics line .... those were the days!

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

It appears we are both posting at the same time. I have another long post. I was 10 years old and remember everything remarkably well and will be recalling some of my impressions from then in my book. I remember watching everything on television and my father had contacts and brought flowers home fron Kennedy's grave. My mother, like many did at that time, was making a scrapbook. I do not know whatever became of it. I am not pinning the Prencipe-Greer encouter to 8 - 8:30 and he addresses this in the e-mail I posted. Otherwise I would agree with you. I had many contacts with the person who has the Greer manuscript and I was never told it was 14 pages. If it was so innocuous why has he never posted it? I urged him to do so but he never would. I cannot get the picture out of my mind of Greer laughing as he came out from giving his testimony. Nick shared many things about Greer with me so I believe they were friends. I corroborated that Nick told his account about the hole in the windshield in the 1960's and also asked those people about Nick and whether they thought he was a truthful person, etc. I tried to do this with everyone I presented as a witness. That is why it bothered me when Josiah, in a later post, said he was going to investigate Glanges as if there were something sinister about her. Well, what was found out about her? I had several contacts with her sister after Glanges's death and her sister, who was in Germany at that time, also has a very unusual story.

My best,

Doug Weldon

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Doug,

Thanks for being so patient. I was surfing the break point of rhetorical excess on another thread. Everything was balanced and A-ok until some real life events overtook my exciting cyber/life. Also, thanks for the restraint and tone of your reply. I think we're both capable of full court legalese nit-picking and I appreciate your heartfelt/non-lawyer approach. The truth is the truth, not my truth or your truth. I don't know how old you are but the President's assassination was a defining event for me and I'd really, really like some type of answer that quiets my mind before it's time for the final check out. I sense that you're on the same path whatever personal reasons are pushing you down the same road. So thanks for your attitude and thanks for your work.

I've tried to answer some of your concerns in highlight below. It's the first time I've tried it this way so we'll see how it goes. I have trouble following the flow of information because of the formatting here so I'm experimenting with different ways of structuring my replies. Let me know if it doesn't work for you since communication is a two way street.

Best to you,

Jerry

Jerry:

This is an intelligent and reasonable reply. If Dr. Glanges or anyone was the sole witness I might have reason to take exception. However, as I have noted before one of the the most important indicators of the reliability of eyewitness is independent corroboration. Here, a number of people, with not one knowing more than one of the other witnesses to the hole, all witnessed a hole in the windshield. Such observations extended from Dallas to Washington D.C. to Dearborn, Michigan. What a phenomena it would be if everyone just happened to fabricate the exact same observation.

This is a good point and brings up a very foundational question for me. I've had a lot of experience with stressful events (accidents, structural failures) that involved lots of people and lots of witnesses to the events. In more than thirty years, I've never had everyone tell the same story about a complex event. Instead, there's usually a distribution of descriptions - lots of the differences clump around simple things like location, but even when you factor those clumps out there's still an unresolvable difference in descriptions of the very same event. There's lot of frustration in the research community because we've got four or five or whatever number of witnesses to something and the folks on one side or the other will say - good grief, that's what all the witnesses say, what's your problem? But the problem is that in a sufficiently complex event we can find five or six or whatever witnesses that will sincerely testify to anything. So one set of researchers combs the records and finds their six witnesses and another set of researchers combs the records and finds their six witnesses and where are we, really?

Concrete application - say 100-150 people saw the limousine close-up after the assassination. Everybody is upset, everybody is in the context of a shooting and there's blood and brain material on the windhield as well a damaged focal point. Honestly, I'd be shocked if I couldn't find ten or twenty people who saw a bullet hole, no matter what was actually on the windshield. And these people won't be lying. They are going to be very convincing because they're telling us what they sincerely believe they saw. If you gave them a polygraph they would not come close to failing. But no one has done the opposite study and it's probably too late now. Even if there were in fact a bullet hole in the windshield, we could locate an equally sincere number of people who would swear that there wasn't hole in the windshield.

So I know it drives some people crazy and they want to know how I could be so blind to sincere and honest eyewitnesses, but my experience has been that in a complex event I can find sincere and convincing witnesses to almost any controversial issue. In my heart I fully recognize the honesty and conviction of the people you've had the honor to interview, but the cold lawyer in me whispers doubt in my ear. That's what I mean when I say I'm looking for something to quiet my mind and I still haven't located it.

In Dallas, it was not such a secret. Michaeal Paine talks about it in his Warren Commission testimony. Mark Lane spoke about the limo being flown to Detroit three days after the assassination in opposition to the official report in a speech in 1966. I am not the only one who can observe Dr. Glange's demeanor. TMWKK segment with her was filmed years before I spoke with her. Watch her. does she seem believeable?

Yes, she does -but see above. Also, I found the whole TMWKK Glanges segment a little manipulative. Not her, but the context into which the producers placed her. The opening at the skeet range was a little over the top. Presumably it was meant to visually tell the story that this isn't some fru, fru - it's a serious woman who knows her weapons. But, I don't think firing a shotgun makes you an expert on on bullet holes and unless Dr. Glanges has a history I don't know about, knowing a lot about using even rifles wouldn't mean you knew what bullet holes in windshields looked like. I came from a hunting family and I'm no stranger to rifles and hand guns but I really didn't see a lot of windshield holes. So I found that visual segment sort of misleading but not Dr. Glanges herself, not at all.

You judge. She did not go out giving interviews or write books. What would have been the benefit to her to fabricate a story? The only reason she said she would talk with me was that she was going to retire soon. She died one month later at age 59. Why did the other person with her that day not speak? She said it was because of fear for his job. I don't understand the fears but I believe they are real.

Right, unless we can talk to that person we'll never know why. I can speculate and you can too - we just don't know. But, as I wrote earlier, Dr. Glanges story was clearly told in a high profile book seven years before you interviewed her. She wasn't murdered or unemployed. So it seems like it was possible to tell your truth about what you saw and still do all right. I know that people were afraid to come forward, but were there concrete threats from actual people or just a sense that it was a dangerous topic because of its nature and because of the "mystery deaths"?

Why would Malcom Perry not talk with anyone? I encountered this many times. The first time I spoke with Stavis Ellis, though he thad talked with many other people and giveni nterviews. maybe it was because i was an attorney but his words to me were "I can't talk with you. I don't want a bullet in my head." I dont't know with Glanges or anyone exactly how things were at Parkland that day. Once, I informed Ellis that someone questioned his veracity in much the same way that you are questioning Glanges. His response was an angry "were they there?" It is amazing what remarkable people so many of these witnesses were. I had similar responses from Whitaker and even a worker at Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. It seemed very irrational at times to me but there was no question these people felt it. Crenshaw, who I also spoke with several times, talks about the conspiracy of silence. i am not going to attempt to enhance or explain the testimony of any witness. I have found, however, that an intelligent witness wanting to fabricate a story, is likely to give as few details as possible, in order to make it more difficult to catch them in a mistruth. Glanges is very detailed. Her account was always consistent. Often, over time, a witness fabricating a story will forget some of the details they recounted before. This is something that bothers me about Judyth Baker. Glanges did not.

Yes, I agree with you about people who are lying and know they're lying. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think she's lying and she certainly doesn't seem like the kind of person who would lie. But she is human and our memories do change over time , usually in a way that enhances our dramatic role in the past. So our first recorded account of what she saw comes nineteen years after the event. And, in fact, the story does change over the seven subsequent years. In Crenshaw's book she's standing near the limousine with her friend. She spots the hole and comments on it and the Secret Service hops in the car and drives away. By the time you speak with her she's actually touching the automobile and her hand is almost injured by the violence of the event. Maybe she told Crenshaw the same thing and it just didn't make it into the book but that's the kind of detail Dr. Crenshaw seemed to thrive on. In any case, as I've said, I don't doubt the basics of her story. I believe she was there and I believe she saw what she believed to be a bullet hole. But there's a big difference in the reliability of her evaluation depending on where she's actually located when she sees these things. And, as I indicated in my last post, I just don't think the dramatic details that put her so close to the limousine are credible.

Ellis and other witnesses to the hole did not. Ellis, as I noted, thought the hole was lower in the windshield. He did not change. Some witnesses were less certain. Every witness said they saw one hole and all of those with any expertise described it as a bullet hole. Such discrepencies in location do not bother me and candidly I expect such. Small details will change with witnesses over time. it is part of the human condition. Look at your windshiled. Because of the slant of a windshield the difference from below the side of the rear view mirror and lower in the windshield can be only one to two inches. The two people who viewed the windshield for the longest period of time were Taylor and Whitaker, two people who never knew anything of each other. They both described the hole in the exact same spot consistent, curiously enough, with the spiral nebulae in the Altgen's photo

OK, I'm going to get a little lawyerish here but just for a moment. You've just given a a set of very good reasons why people might not all place a single defect in the same location on the windshield. But why don't those same reasons apply to the hole itself? If the angle of the windshield makes it difficult to accurately locate the defect, why doesn't that make it difficult to accurately assess if it's actually a hole? You mention Taylor and cite the reliability of his location observation. Yet, Taylor thought the "hole" was something through which a pin could pass, not a substantial hole. If the defect was so substantial, why did people want to pass an object through the hole to test their observations? What was it about the "hole" that made them think there might be some question about a pencil or pen making it through? If people can have trouble with their memories and the windshield shape and slant make it difficult why is it so hard to accept that there was a defect that looked a lot like some type of hole and they were simply mistaken, just like they were mistaken about its location?

As to different locations listen to my interview. Let's say two people come upon a body in the woods within a few minutes of each other. Years later, the first person testifies at a trial that the body was laying in a north-south position with a red shirt on. The second person testifies that he recalled the body laying in a more east-west position and recalls the shirt as being brown. Does that mean that there were two different bodies or that neither person saw a body at all?

Certainly not. But the question here isn't was there a defect? (Was there a body?) The question is did the defect actually penetrate the windshield (north-south, red brown). It's the detail that's the issue. OK, lawyer -off.

I am not going to embellish Glange's account. Hopefully, a film would vindicate her. I wish I had the opportunity to show her the photos of the many people standing in front of the limo at Parkland and have asked her if she could have identified herself. She did tell me that the people who were inside the cordon were never escorted outside of it. If the cordon was so tight who is that odd woman in front of the limo in the photo you posted. Certainly not Secret Service or FBI or a physician. Karl Kinaski made an interesting point. "Within the emergency parking lot, prior to the washing of the limo(sic) and the rebuilding of the limo-top, the limo was driven from one spot to another. Maybe Ms Glanges saw the whole at the first spot, not the (guarded) one shown in the picture? "

It would have been great if you'd been able to do that. I've got quite a collection of Parkland photos and I've located an early photo of Dr. Glanges so I'd be happy to share those with you. I think I can see her but who knows. You've actually seen her so that might be a big help. Was the other student with her female? Because there are two white coated young women who are there for some time. The odd looking lady is there as the top is going up - she looks like she might be part of housekeeping but that's a guess. The odd lady is there before the cordon fully forms and before the limousine speeds away so it's earlier than when Glanges says she was at the front of the limousine. Karl is a very interesting guy but the limousine doesn't move unless they parked it on the curb a second time. Besides, Glanges is very clear that she's seeing the limousine while she's outside the emergency department and when the limousine left it drove out of sight. She would have still seen the limousine if it was just moved to the top/wash location.

I don't know. If you are not comfortable than feel free to discount Glanges. Then you are going to have to discount each of the other witnesses. If you believe one, then the point is proven and then was it some kind of cosmic ciincidence that all of the others witnessed the same phenomena?

No, I think it's likely that everyone saw the same defect and it looked like a hole to some of them. I also think that if we had interviewed witnesses at the time there would have been many people who said there was a defect but no hole.

Did these people engage in some type of conspiracy to deceve the public? Why did George Whitaker ever mention it to anyone besides his family from that day uNovember 25, 1963 until he spoke with me in 1993. was he so clever that he gained access to the White House Garage logs and relaized noone could account for the limo on 11/25/1963 and did he know that the official documents and records of Hess and Eisenhardt would be in such conflict and did he know in 1963 that the HSCA would find conflicts in the limousine chronology?

I was unaware that Martin Hinrichs had conspiracy inclinations. I was told something different but as you noted it was an objective analysis by a person you chose and in your request to him you indicated quite strongly you were looking for a match. Also to your statement that "two professional photometric analysts I've worked with and trust told me Martin was wrong and for a few thousand dollars they'd prove it to everyone's satisfaction." If it is so complicated and they can look at a picture and tell they are the same and it would take a few thousand dollars to prove it it sounds somewhat contradictory. I would run, not walk, away from these people holding my wallet. i did not see your posts on Martin on the forum or Lancer on Martin. I saw a piece posted by Bernice on the forum but if you did, I apologize.

I should let Martin speak for himself if he cares to; I think he believes there was a conspiracy, but can find no evidence that the Zapruder film was altered. At least for some of us, that places him in the conspiracy camp. My experience with Martin is that he regularly thumps me at every opportunity so I was sure he'd test the hypothesis! The photo analysts are litigation guys - they charge a $100 for their calls to tell you your materials aren't ready yet. It comes with the territory. For what it's worth, the charge would be for creating the proof, not for their opinion. They thought (if I had correctly sorted out the shadows and cracks), that it all fit together but that would be all you have- their statements. What cost money was creating the cad files and transformations that anyone could see and say-- that's a match. Otherwise it's just more of the same old, same old. "Yeah, that's how it looks to you, but not me." Bernice posted it here for sure. Bernice is amazing. I suspect she may actually have a copy of everything. On Lancer I'm not sure - I'll try to find that but their search function is a challenge for me. Your suggestion of making sure Martin's thread was posted with the study is a good one but I didn't think of it. Martin's work was mentioned only in the course of discussion, not as a specific addition. I don't know if you spend a lot of time following the various boards but there's a very large cross-over between Duncan's, Lancer and the Ed Forum. I assumed that anyone who cared would know about it. I don't think anyone would believe Duncan's forum is a good place to hide information from other researchers.

*Update - I finally cracked the Lancer search engine (yes, I know) and we didn't mention Martin's thread. There was a lot with Robin Unger's archive which is hosted on Duncan's site but no Martin.

Also there was an obvious attempt to hide the defect in the Altgen's photo. It is easy to dissect Glanges or any witness and create doubt, if you desire in your own mind. Let's say someone drops a vase on the floor and it shatters into a hundred pieces. They pick up one piece and hold it up and say "look, this is not a vase." They set the piece down, pick up another piece, say the same and continue on and on. However, if you put all of the pieces together what do you have? Lo and behold you have a vase! This is analagous to the witnesses and their accounts. You seem reasonable. Why were the police officers dismissed as casual observers? Why was Prencipe dismissed by such irational logic. Were you suggesting thar evry minute of his time was accounted for at Bethesda that evening? If so, how and where did you get that verification. Do you know the distance from Bethesda to the Wh garage?

Barb knows more about that, so you'd get a better answer from her.

I believe the photos you showed in your article are different. The only person who can authenticate the first phot is Robert Frazier and you yourself indicated in a post to Pamela that he was not relible. You also indicated to her that it was clear that Taylor clearly was describing a hole in his account. Why the inconsistency and contradiction?

I think if you read what I wrote to Pamela more closely you'll see that I was attempting to represent what a dedicated alterationist like David Lifton would say to her, and that her her answers weren't satisfactory from that perspective. I don't have any reason to doubt Frazier's photograph and Taylor did subsequently view the photo and validate it. There's no doubt that Taylor said there was a hole. Before the opportunity for Treasury Department pressure, he said he thought it was a pin hole which is consistent with the appearance of Frazier's photo. Also, if you believe that the Secret Service was switching windows multiple times and the FBI examiner was fixed, I find it hard to see how Taylor escaped the the web of deception and that no one would check the after action reports from the uninvolved agents to make sure they didn't reveal something that shouldn't be known. Instead, an official report shoots up to the SS Chief and then to the WC that directly refers to the hole everyone has spent so much time and effort to hide.

You appear reasonable and sincere. If you send me a private message with your address I will send you a couple of things. My only agenda ever has been truth, nothing else. I never sought, nor desired, notierity. The reason I want to finish this book is simply as a promise to these wonderful people whio trusted me enough to share their accounts with me and that they, too, wanted only truth. Many have passed on but it is a promise to them I hope to keep. I sought truth for myself. I understand that no amount of evidence is ever going to convince some people. That is their problem. I have no intent to hide anything even if I suspect someone will attempt to use that information against me. I hope you had the opportunity to listen to my Black Op interview. I believe truth will prevail.

That would be great! I'll send that information to you. Also we can discuss the Parkland photos if you're interested.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Edited by Jerry Logan
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Guest James H. Fetzer

Barb,

I thought you might want to know that someone has been posting

the most dishonest and ridiculous drivel and signing your name to it.

Jim

Hi John,

Tink does not generally hang out there ... or anywhere. Someone

started a thing suggesting Tink is a disinfo person, Pamela did her

bit to stir the embers. Aside from allegations that SSID was a book to

lead people astray, an article Tink and Jerry Logan and myself wrote

last summer on whether or not there was a through-and-through hole in

the windshield became part of the discussion as did, of course, the

authenticity of the Z film .... things seem to be winding down a bit

.... Fetzer being scarce the last few days after being whacked quite a

bit, Pamela being scolded rather soundly by Lifton about her joining

the Fetzer fest in maligning Tink, but Jack continues to pop up like a

whack a mole character saying "read Horne IV" to just about anything

someone says..... sigh. A soap opera of sorts....

Barb :-)

and

Tink has handlked himself well

thru this ... and he is quite aware already. And it's about over.

Support would be good though. Even David Lifton, who is at odds with

Tink on most everything, at odds with Tink, Jerry and I on our

articles, and is tight with Fetzer and his merry little band, came on

and blasted the very idea that anyone would stoop to this character

assassination. Kudos to Lifton for that ... many are intimidated there

to speak the courage of their convictions lest they end up on the

receiving end of the baloney from a small minded few. Others have been

willing to step up to the plate and say, "whoa."

Barb :-)

McAdams replied:

I think it is time for some of this at this forum to

>> >rally around Josiah Thompson in his hour of need,

>> >what with these relentless attacks by Fetzer.

>> >We should have McAdams, Rahn, Davison, Barber,

>> >Von Pein, Bigdog, claviger, Bud, yeuhd, Parnell,

>> >Carlier and the other stalwarts rally to his defense.

>>

>> >Yes, we all have disagreed with Thompson on some issues.

>> >But he has always been civil and a good sport.

>> >We should put all that behind us and log on to the

>> >Education Forum and give him our support. I am sure

>> >he would much appreciate it.

>>

>> >Who is with me?

Doug,

You need to make the arguments here and cite the interview for additional discussion. Most of the members are not going to go there without having a very good idea what hey will hear. Please elaborate your position. Your presence will make a difference, but you have to state your case.

Jim

An exchange here between Mr. Fetzer and myself, unrelated to the discussion with Doug Weldon below, deleted for the sake of length/space.-BJ

Jim:

Almost the entire interview is a rebuttal to the article "Eternal return." I will be glad to respond to the authors of the article after they have listened to it. Even here, this woman named Barb distorts the evidence. I do not know if it is done intentionally or is just sloppy. Robert Livingstone wrote to David Lifton on May 2, 1992: " Also relevant, I learned from a former classmate of mine from Stanford who was then a reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch, Richard Dudman, that he was one of the White House press group that accompnied the President to Dallas. Not getting much information from the Parkland Hospital, Dick went out to inspect the Lincoln limousine in which the President and Connolly and their wives had been riding. He thought he saw, for certain that there was a through-and-through hole in the upper left margin of the windshield. He described the spaling -splintering of glass at the margins as though the missile had entered from the front of the vehicle. When he reached over to pass his pencil or pen through the hole to test its patency, an FBI or Secret Service man roughly drew him away and shooed him off, instructing him that he wasn't allowed to come so close to the vehicle.

If there were a through-and-through windshield penetration, in that location, according to Dick, it had to come from the front."

The article by this Barb, a Jerry Logan, and Josiah Thompson, was one of the sloppiest,most irresponsible, and dishonest articles I have ever read. I spoke with Dudman. It was obvious he was pressured by the government by tactics that appear similar to what happened to Taylor.. Listen to my interview. Dudman's fear destroyed his friendship with Livingstone. Let's say I witnessed a murder. I describe it in great detail and the perpetrator confesses. Later. after much pressure, I recant my testimony and the perpetrator now says he did not commit the crime. According to the logic of the authors of the article, they would set the perpetrator free, and continue to look elsewhere for another perpetrator. The real world does not work that way and the legal system certainly does not for reasons at least one of the authors know very well. When the authors sought the expertise to verify a match to two photographs they published (with no way to authenticate the first picture) they convieniently failed to share that analysis by Martin Heinrichs with the members of this forum that the pictures DID NOT match. They omitted witnesses. They mischaracterized witnesses. They impugned the character od DOCTOR EVALEA GLANGES and suggested there was something "suspect" about her and they were going to investigate. Seven months later we do not know the results of that "investigation." They dismiss Nick Prencipe by making sloppy conclusions and having no understanding of the personalities involved or the geography of Washington D.C. In my interview I allow the deceased Nick Prencipe to respond himself to these erroneous assumptions. In fact, I am quite certain that the authors of this article never spoke to even one of the witnesses they seek to dismiss. If there is not a fact, it appears to be no problem to fabricate one. For those who claim their expertise in such, there appears to be no understanding of evidence or witnesses. In Doug Horne's book he quotes Ned Price, the Head of Restoration at a major motion picture studio, to say upon viewing frame 317 of the Zapruder Film, "Oh, that's horrible, that's just terrible. I can't believe its such a bad fake." I would have a similar reponse to the article "Eternal Return." I am going to have to take exception Jim. If anyone wants to how how bad the article is they need to START by listening to my interview a few weeks ago. This is not an exercise for me. I am willing to engage in intelligent discussion but not a he-thinks me-thinks. It is a pleasure to be on this forum.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Welcome to the forum, Doug. As James Fetzer already noted to you, you do need to make whatever case you want here on the forum. Jerry, Josiah and I invited critique from all when we originally posted the article, and, of course, are certainly interested still in any errors or misrepresentations anyone thinks were made and any other comments one might have. Jim apparently invited you to the forum to do just that. I'm sure you understand that waxing accusatory generalities do not make a base for any discussion or response; nor does any overall audio interview on another site. I am sure that if you choose to present any problems, errors, misrepresentations, etc you say are in the article here with specificity and complete cites in context, of course, one or more of us will be happy to respond. And other members of the forum will probably join the discussion as well. That's one reason having everything spelled out on the forum table is important.

Bests to you,

this woman named Barb ;-)

Barb:

Thank you. I simply do not have the time to transcribe a two hour talk for the forum. I am not making a personal attack against you and the other authors of the article but only the content. I do not know you or Jerry and I have only met Josiah Thompson once. SSID is an important book and I am stating so in my book. I appreciated the new knowledge about Charles Taylor but in my analysis, it reinforced the position I present as Richard Dudman underwent a similar experience. Jim did not invite me to the forum as my first contact with him in a number of years was this past week. Jim and I don't agree on everything and I thought David Lifton's post about Josiah Thompson not being an "agent" was very appropriate. I hope you see specificity in my prior comments and concerns such as not posting here or on Lancer the careful analysis by Martin Heinrich concluding that the two windshields used in the article were not a match. I do not believe that the first picture shows the windshield that was in the limousine in Dallas. Critical witnesses such as George Whitaker were omitted. Names were misspelled. Information was utilized from a site that is filled with inaccuracies. I have sometimes noticed that people who have claimed expertise on certain facets of the assassination often know very little. Documents are conflicting and there has to be a reasonable analysis of those documents. As for an example of something I consider sloppy or even a fabrication in your article is the statement, "Although it took a few moments to place a law enforcement cordon around the limousine, law enforcement officers then kept civilians back from the limousine: " What is your source of information for this. This is entirely contrary to the photographic evidence at Parkland and the observation of witnesses. A cordon was eventualy established but the people who were inside that cordon, including officers, hospital personnel, and other civilians were not removed and placed outside of it. Were any witnesses interviewed. These were decent, ordinary citizens. People like Whitaker,Glanges, Ellis, and Prencipe were very principled people. They know what they saw. I understand eye-witness testimony and am well aware of observations made about it by the foremost expert in the world, Elizabeth Loftus of Harvard. I have heard thousands of witness testify in my career. When I wanted to find out more about the limousine after the assassination I went to the home of Willard Hess, whose company made the limousine for Kennedy and refurbished it for Johnson. I often spoke with him and exchanged correspondence. I talked with a number of his workers who were involved. i wanted to understand them. Every witness I talked with I would ask other witnesses about them,i.e., were they honest, did they have a tendency to exaggerate, etc. Certain witnesses I would not use. In my interview I indicateIi could not use Madeline Brown without further corroboration to state what I believe is true, that Lyndon Johnson was aware of what is going on. What is the explanation for characterizing two trained police officers (and Elis had a career in Military Intelligence) as "casual" observers. I let the evidence lead me, not vice versa.

My best,

Doig

My heavens, Doug, neither I nor anyone else ever expected you to transcribe and post your complete Black Op interview. Since you expressed taking issue with our article, we were just expecting some specific examples we could address rather than vague generalities about sloppy research, fabrication, use of unchecked information from other sites and principled witnesses. etc. Like Jerry, I am glad you meant no personal attack nor offense; also like Jerry, I do think your rhetoric was quite strong, given as you note, that you do not even know us. I don't know you either, so I would never presume to know the depth of your knowledge, any areas of expertise, your abilities with documents and witnesses, etc. I am happy to see that with the dust settled on all of that, you and Jerry have had some good exchanges, and I see he has addressed a few of the issues you had concerns about in our article.

I would like to address the issue of Nick Principe. You note above he was a person of principle, and in a post to Jerry yesterday, you questioned what sort of " "irational [sic] logic" went into our dismissing him as a witness. I am surprised, given your witness expertise and investigative skills, that you remained unaware of the problem with Principe's claim due to the whereabouts of Greer during the time period related by Principe. Either not knowing the evidence, or never fact checking Principe's account, or both.

I responded to that "irational [sic] logic" post with the information about Greer's whereabouts that night. Yes, his whereabouts and involvement that night are known, not just from Greer himself, but by mention of him in the accounts of others, including Sibert & O'Neil. I have spoken to both Sibert and O'Neil. O'Neil mentioned Greer in relation to discussions in the morgue about a full vs partial autopsy as well as Greer and Kellerman's presence throughout the autopsy. I was talking to O'Neil about something autopsy related and that was just part of the info he related to me.

By his own telling, Principe places a time constraint on his claimed meeting with Greer near the White House grounds. You are familiar with an email Principe sent to Pamela McElwain-Brown after she had interviewed him by phone some years ago, as you were bcc'd on that letter ... which you later forwarded to Bernice Moore who posted it here on the forum in July of '08. I reposted that letter on the moderated group last year and you and Bernice then verified it as being authentic. Here is that letter:

QUOTE

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

END QUOTE

There can be no quibble about exactly what Principe claimed happened ... or where ... or when. His

account puts his meeting with Greer sometime between 6pm (when the plane carrying the family, and Greer too) arrived back from Dallas, and 8pm when the plane carrying the limo arrived at Andrews and preparations ... and transmissions ... were underway for returning the limo to the WH garage.

We know from other documents that by 9pm, the limo was in the garage, parked in a bay, and covered up.

Even without accounting for Greer's whereabouts all night .... which has been done ... his whereabouts from the time the plane carrying JFK's body landed at Andrews, proceeded to Bethesda, the body was offloaded into the morgue and the autopsy was getting underway, are clearly known.

That is Principe's timeframe by his own telling. And during that time, Greer was on national television for much of the time, offloading the casket into the ambulance after arriving on the plane at 6pm, driving that ambulance to Bethesda, entering the grounds there at 7pm. Then, helping to offload the casket at the back dock and escorting it into the morgue at 8pm and being present and accounted for by Sibert & O'Neil as being present at the autopsy.

Did Nick Principe ever see the limo/windshield? Maybe yes, maybe no. No one can say for sure. But his own story, in his own words, is impossible to reconcile in any way with known facts and he therefore fails as a reliable witness.

The evidence led us to this inescapable conclusion. Nothing "vice versa."

By the way, Rich DellaRosa related a different telling of Principe's claim, one Principe told him directly ... in that version, Principe claimed that he saw the limo in the garage with both Greer and Kellerman and credits Kellerman with the comment about shots coming at them from all directions. That does nothing to bolster confidence in any witness, regardless of what a fine person they may be.

I didn't know Nick Principe, but I know many on the DellaRosa forum knew him, some had become close friends with him, and he was well thought of there. I felt badly about this because Rich DellaRosa, for one, was so close to Principe and was clearly upset by the news of Greer's whereabouts. But, like you, truth is my only quest, and following the evidence, as we all must, in this particular situation, led to the conclusion that Nick Principe cannot be used as a witness to a hole in the windshield ... not the way Mr. Principe himself framed it.

Encouraging to see good give and take exchanges on issues. Thanks for the oppurtunity to explain our information and conclusion re Mr. Principe's claim.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Barb,

I thought you might want to know that someone has been posting

the most dishonest and ridiculous drivel and signing your name to it.

Jim

Hi John,

Tink does not generally hang out there ... or anywhere. Someone

started a thing suggesting Tink is a disinfo person, Pamela did her

bit to stir the embers. Aside from allegations that SSID was a book to

lead people astray, an article Tink and Jerry Logan and myself wrote

last summer on whether or not there was a through-and-through hole in

the windshield became part of the discussion as did, of course, the

authenticity of the Z film .... things seem to be winding down a bit

.... Fetzer being scarce the last few days after being whacked quite a

bit, Pamela being scolded rather soundly by Lifton about her joining

the Fetzer fest in maligning Tink, but Jack continues to pop up like a

whack a mole character saying "read Horne IV" to just about anything

someone says..... sigh. A soap opera of sorts....

Barb :-)

and

Tink has handlked himself well

thru this ... and he is quite aware already. And it's about over.

Support would be good though. Even David Lifton, who is at odds with

Tink on most everything, at odds with Tink, Jerry and I on our

articles, and is tight with Fetzer and his merry little band, came on

and blasted the very idea that anyone would stoop to this character

assassination. Kudos to Lifton for that ... many are intimidated there

to speak the courage of their convictions lest they end up on the

receiving end of the baloney from a small minded few. Others have been

willing to step up to the plate and say, "whoa."

Barb :-)

McAdams replied:

I think it is time for some of this at this forum to

>> >rally around Josiah Thompson in his hour of need,

>> >what with these relentless attacks by Fetzer.

>> >We should have McAdams, Rahn, Davison, Barber,

>> >Von Pein, Bigdog, claviger, Bud, yeuhd, Parnell,

>> >Carlier and the other stalwarts rally to his defense.

>>

>> >Yes, we all have disagreed with Thompson on some issues.

>> >But he has always been civil and a good sport.

>> >We should put all that behind us and log on to the

>> >Education Forum and give him our support. I am sure

>> >he would much appreciate it.

>>

>> >Who is with me?

No, that was not McAdams reply, those words were posted by someone who calls himself Whiskey Joe. Pretty selective in what you culled from the mod group .... no small wonder given the things being said about you there. :-) As for my comments .... just a quick round up synopsis, like a Soap Opera digest, for those commenting on the little bits that they've heard of the goings on here.

Now, James, if you are interested in discussing evidence .... let's discuss. If this is all you are interested in doing, and that would seem to be the case, then please locate your "off" button and keep it engaged so as to not impede, distract or intimidate those who are interested in discussing the evidence.

Such childish games, imo.

'Nuf!

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Barb,

There's more. I agree with this complete incompetent on this

point: that one of us is a complete waste of time! What a flake!

Notice how much this person--who uses your name!--indulges in

the shallowest kind of despicable conduct. I'm glad it's not you!

Jim

No one can figure how Fetzer, who taught critical thinking and logic

for years as a philosophy professor, can spout the stuff he does. He

doesn't seem to think, and he really has a very poor grasp of any of

the evidence overall .... he runs on what others, whom he holds close,

tell him and runs off on his own from there. He ignores any info that

does not fit what he has already decided. He is a waste of time and a

real distraction to any real discussion taking place.

and

CTs who do not espouse Zfilm alteration are considered LNs or disinfo

agents .... that's not Simkin, that's the vocal bats in the belfry

that intimidate a lot of others from participating. Thousands read

posts there, a handful participates....largely, I expect, because of

that.

Barb :-)

and

The predictables...Fetzer and White, lauded her for that post ...lol.

It's funny because they do not like Pamela ... she is the nemesis of

their hero Doug Weldon. It's such a 2 faced game, which Pamela plays

too, as all here already know .... the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

What's funny is that now Weldon has come forth complaining about our

article, and it is Tink and Jerry and I taking Weldon on ... him being

very critical of Pamela. So maybe Tink and Jerry and I will be

Pamela's new best friends now....hahahaha!

Barb :-)

Barb,

I thought you might want to know that someone has been posting

the most dishonest and ridiculous drivel and signing your name to it.

Jim

Hi John,

Tink does not generally hang out there ... or anywhere. Someone

started a thing suggesting Tink is a disinfo person, Pamela did her

bit to stir the embers. Aside from allegations that SSID was a book to

lead people astray, an article Tink and Jerry Logan and myself wrote

last summer on whether or not there was a through-and-through hole in

the windshield became part of the discussion as did, of course, the

authenticity of the Z film .... things seem to be winding down a bit

.... Fetzer being scarce the last few days after being whacked quite a

bit, Pamela being scolded rather soundly by Lifton about her joining

the Fetzer fest in maligning Tink, but Jack continues to pop up like a

whack a mole character saying "read Horne IV" to just about anything

someone says..... sigh. A soap opera of sorts....

Barb :-)

and

Tink has handlked himself well

thru this ... and he is quite aware already. And it's about over.

Support would be good though. Even David Lifton, who is at odds with

Tink on most everything, at odds with Tink, Jerry and I on our

articles, and is tight with Fetzer and his merry little band, came on

and blasted the very idea that anyone would stoop to this character

assassination. Kudos to Lifton for that ... many are intimidated there

to speak the courage of their convictions lest they end up on the

receiving end of the baloney from a small minded few. Others have been

willing to step up to the plate and say, "whoa."

Barb :-)

McAdams replied:

I think it is time for some of this at this forum to

>> >rally around Josiah Thompson in his hour of need,

>> >what with these relentless attacks by Fetzer.

>> >We should have McAdams, Rahn, Davison, Barber,

>> >Von Pein, Bigdog, claviger, Bud, yeuhd, Parnell,

>> >Carlier and the other stalwarts rally to his defense.

>>

>> >Yes, we all have disagreed with Thompson on some issues.

>> >But he has always been civil and a good sport.

>> >We should put all that behind us and log on to the

>> >Education Forum and give him our support. I am sure

>> >he would much appreciate it.

>>

>> >Who is with me?

No, that was not McAdams reply, those words were posted by someone who calls himself Whiskey Joe. Pretty selective in what you culled from the mod group .... no small wonder given the things being said about you there. :-) As for my comments .... just a quick round up synopsis, like a Soap Opera digest, for those commenting on the little bits that they've heard of the goings on here.

Now, James, if you are interested in discussing evidence .... let's discuss. If this is all you are interested in doing, and that would seem to be the case, then please locate your "off" button and keep it engaged so as to not impede, distract or intimidate those who are interested in discussing the evidence.

Such childish games, imo.

'Nuf!

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On the contrary, Barb, I am happy to see this posted here, especially this part:

Kudos to Lifton for that ... many are intimidated there

to speak the courage of their convictions lest they end up on the

receiving end of the baloney from a small minded few.

(Bolds mine.)

It is always this way-- how very sad. We miss alot of thought from the silent majority who do not wish to be branded disinfo agents,or neocons, for disagreeing.

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