SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS: Truth or Obfuscation?

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

I am aware of Groden's intros to both TKOAP and TSFLHO. But thanks. :-) Let's see, you asked for a name of a lab in New Jersey, I provided more than one cite. You mocked a safe, I provided a quote from Groden, you mocked his working in any film lab in 1964 because you said he was 19 and in the Army .... he was 18 until November of '64, and I cite David, in Pig on a Leash, who tells you Groden worked in a lab making slides after being medically discharged from the Army after less than a year, having dropped out of school and joined the Army when he was a junior in high school.

Oh yes, do lecture me. :-)

[David G. Healy]

You and David are SUCH cut ups! HAHA! Moe Weitzman?? The copy he made in 1967 would have done the WC a fat lot of good, now wouldn't it? And I thought the clues were so obvious ... sigh.

LIFE (via Mr. Orth) brings the original film to D.C. to show the WC in February ... that was 1964, not 1967 :-) ... and they then send the film to a New Jersey lab, not to have bad salsa made, but to have 3 sets of first generation slides made. Robert Groden was the technician at that lab in New Jersey, who made those slides ... and made himself a copy of the film, which he then hid in a safe for years, at the same time. So, the poor copy Pamela is complaining about that Groden showed on the Geraldo show was made directly from the original.

I never made any "claims" about Weitzman ... I never mentioned him. How silly that would have been. And pretty silly you both did.

Barb :-)

ever since he was a lab technician at a NJ photo lab ...

Moe Weitzman's lab was in New Jersey? Here all along I thought it was in New York.

David you are correct Moe Weitzman ran EFX Laboratories in New York City nt New jersey as Barb claims

It was at EFX that Moe went from 8mm to 35mm in one step

Groden of course worked for Moe and from him got most of his early Z-film (s)

I loved Liftons POAL chapter in TGZFH, the background of the researchers trying to get any type of copy of the Z-film, Marcus stealing Newcombs copy of the Z-film ( ) such a great history that Lifton was involved in, one of the reasons I look up to Lifton and the early reaserchers so much

Hello Barb,

Nice dance, a bit to obvious, but nice dance anyway, hon....when you get up to Z-film speed, give us a call. Is it too much moisture your neck of the woods?

[Pat Speer]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

Dean, it's clear Barb knows the official history, but has come up with her own take on when Groden really got access to the film. When I first started researching the case in depth, one of the things I found most surprising was the widespread distrust of Groden. As detailed in Pig on a Leash, much of the CT community simply doesn't trust him. I've met Bob several times now, and he's been generous both with his time and with his praise for my research. But Barb has apparently had a different experience, and thinks Bob is lying about when he first received his film.

[Craig Lamson]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

Dean, it's clear Barb knows the official history, but has come up with her own take on when Groden really got access to the film. When I first started researching the case in depth, one of the things I found most surprising was the widespread distrust of Groden. As detailed in Pig on a Leash, much of the CT community simply doesn't trust him. I've met Bob several times now, and he's been generous both with his time and with his praise for my research. But Barb has apparently had a different experience, and thinks Bob is lying about when he first received his film.

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the first time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Edited January 14, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

Dean, it's clear Barb knows the official history, but has come up with her own take on when Groden really got access to the film. When I first started researching the case in depth, one of the things I found most surprising was the widespread distrust of Groden. As detailed in Pig on a Leash, much of the CT community simply doesn't trust him. I've met Bob several times now, and he's been generous both with his time and with his praise for my research. But Barb has apparently had a different experience, and thinks Bob is lying about when he first received his film.

Hi Pat ... and thanks. :-)

It's not really my take, it is something I heard from more than one source over the years. I really never thought much about it, as I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. But I did look around at some point in time, and, as shown, found some support for the notion. David Lifton's comment in Pig on a Leash is what reminded me of it years ago.

Like you, my experiences with Robert have all been positive - he is very personable and generous with his time and knowledge. Others, as you also note, have not had that experience and there was a time when I was shocked when I would see/hear some things that had gone on. I don't accuse Robert of lying about this, but I think given what we do know, that 1964 is a distinct possibility vs 1969. As Trask noted, Groden has been hedgy about this, and, as you note, there is that widespread distrust factor some have about anything Groden explains. My whole point to Pamela was that Groden's copy is known to have been among the best at the time .... that it was not an inferior copy shown on the Geraldo show ... and that there was no source who could have provided a better copy for that public showing. Groden is the one who brought the film to the public for the first time, and he had a good copy.

Bests to you!

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

Dean, it's clear Barb knows the official history, but has come up with her own take on when Groden really got access to the film. When I first started researching the case in depth, one of the things I found most surprising was the widespread distrust of Groden. As detailed in Pig on a Leash, much of the CT community simply doesn't trust him. I've met Bob several times now, and he's been generous both with his time and with his praise for my research. But Barb has apparently had a different experience, and thinks Bob is lying about when he first received his film.

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

[Dean Hagerman]

Ok, I knew I had read Grodens own account of how and when he came upon the Z-film

I went through all of Grodens books until I came to the Introduction in "The Killing Of A President"

I scanned it for Barb and others

On the page before this one Groden says that he started to study the case soon after Nov 22 1963

But he never had any Z-film or frames or had never seen the Z-film before he met Weitzman in 1969, in fact Weitzman didnt show Groden the Z-film until months after they first met

Barb if you dont know the facts and history of the Z-film, how can we trust your diatribes against Fetzer, White and others?

I am aware of Groden's intros to both TKOAP and TSFLHO. But thanks. :-) Let's see, you asked for a name of a lab in New Jersey, I provided more than one cite. You mocked a safe, I provided a quote from Groden, you mocked his working in any film lab in 1964 because you said he was 19 and in the Army .... he was 18 until November of '64, and I cite David, in Pig on a Leash, who tells you Groden worked in a lab making slides after being medically discharged from the Army after less than a year, having dropped out of school and joined the Army when he was a junior in high school.

Oh yes, do lecture me. :-)

Any time you need a leture on Z-film history just ask I will help you

[Michael Hogan]

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

[Jack White]

Were it not for Robert and Penn, there would be NO ZAPRUDER FILM accessible except the small "official bw WR" images.

At a later time, because of them first making copies public, David also had access to a Weitzman copy and came up

with his own clear copy. I bought from Penn the poor 8mm copy, and later a much improved 16mm copy done by Robert.

These three receive far too little appreciation for LIBERATING clear copies of the film and making them widely available.

Penn was the first, having persuaded Garrison to allow a copy to be made of the trial copy. This rather poor copy then

allowed Groden to come forward with his better copies.

I will always defend these three for what may have been "illegal" acts which were actually morally and patriotically right.

The film should have never been in private hands anyway, since it was evidence in a murder case.

Jack

[Dean Hagerman]

I will always defend these three for what may have been "illegal" acts which were actually morally and patriotically right.

I agree with that 100%

[Dean Hagerman]

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

Good call, I was glad Groden put that copy in his "Assassination Films" DVD/VHS, so you could see what the early researchers had to work with

[Paul Rigby]

In late November 1967, Max Lerner, long a zealous stenographer of the plotters’ shifting explanations for the Dallas coup, reviewed Thompson’s SSID, and pronounced himself a convert.

The emergence of serious critics of the Warren Report – by serious Lerner meant academics, men like Epstein, Popkin, and now Thompson – had persuaded him that there was “some kind of collaborative shooting” and that “a trap had been set for the President” (1). At the end of his review, Lerner expressed the hope “That Thompson will leave Kierkegaard alone for a while, and turn to the big problem remaining in the assassination: who were the three men, where did they come from, what plot did they form, by what strange motives were they moved?” (2).

Forty-years on, we know that Lerner pleaded in vain. Not merely did Thompson add nothing to the plot so fuzzily sketched in SSID, he now devotes his time to dismissing the very evidence he adduced for a plot. There is continuity in his work, though, and we overlook it at our peril: He continues to offer a politics-free analysis, whether of Time-Life, Kennedy’s relationship with the CIA, or the Warren Commission.

(1) Max Lerner, “A New Book Shoots Big Holes in Warren Report,” L.A. Times, 26 November 1967, p.P7

(2) Ibid.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack, Could you please upload page 436 of HOAX (2003), which includes a comparison of the two windshields? Thanks.

Hi Jerry.

I like to ask you a couple of questions before i went into detail regarding my improved windshield crack study.

It has been said in your/Barb and Josiah's article that:

John Hunt, working from photos he obtained in the Archives, has come up with an ingenious but simple proof that the “windshield switch theory” is wrong. He compared Frazier’s photo of the windshield taken in the wee hours of November 23rd with a later photo of the windshield taken by the HSCA circa 1978:

As Hunt points out, “cracks don’t go away.” If cracks were present in the windshield when photographed by Frazier on November 23rd while the windshield was still attached to the limousine and those cracks are not present in the HSCA windshield in 1978, then we are dealing with two different pieces of evidence. However, the photos show a marked similarity in the position and number of the cracks. The photos indicate that the two windshields are the same and that the Lifton/Fetzer “windshield switch theory” is wrong.

Can you, or anyone else guide me to the original article from John Hunt's windshield study?

I can't find it here nor on Lancer or Google. Is it hidden in alt.assassination groups?

What i like to see is the whole expert's report from John Hunt about this ingenious but simple proof .

Another question i have is.......what is the source of this photograph taken ca. 1978 for the HSCA:

Ok, i can't find it in my files nor on any other online source (Mary Ferrell).

Who made it and for what purpose?

Thank you forward.

As i said, every help is much appreciated.

Martin

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Interesting statement by Groden..

"For the firt time, I had an ultra clear copy..."

Notice he did say he had a copy the z film for the first time...rather that he had a "ultra clear" copy for the first time.

Make of it what you will, to me it says he had a not so "ultra clear" copy prior....

Interesting pick up, Craig.

Barb :-)

Maybe Groden had a bootleg copy from the Shaw trial that was obtained by Garrison in early 1969.

Seems he did. He shows a copy (whose quality he describes as "visual mud") in his DVD The Assassination Films".

Good call, I was glad Groden put that copy in his "Assassination Films" DVD/VHS, so you could see what the early researchers had to work with

I have a 16mm copy of the film that I purchased from the Citizen's Commission of Inquiry (Mark Lanes organization) in November of 1975.