The Witnesses v The Fake Films

[Jack White]

I fear this could prove rather a long wait, as Pat contemplates his explanation for his omission of this fascinating piece of irrelevance: Muchmore denied taking any film of the assassination scene. For the benefit of those unfamiliar with her statement to the FBI, dated December 4, 1963, follow this link:

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/wi..._hsca_0080a.gif

“She said she had a movie camera with her...but she advised that she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene”

So, in order to swallow the anti-alterationist Kool-Aid on the question of which film was shown by WNEW-TV at 00:46hrs on the morning of Tuesday, November 26, 1963, you have to discount the testimony of the very woman to whom the anti-alterationists attribute it. It's laughable, but true; and anything but unusual when it comes to the alleged film-takers and their allegedly unadulterated films. Consider the case of the bald guy himself...which I will, in due course.

Utter hoo-ha, Rigby. Muchmore LIED, it's that simple. She sold her film to UPI on 11-25 and was afraid she'd get in trouble with the FBI, so lied. The FBI, in fact, did not know of her film for months after, when stills from it magically appeared in a book put out by UPI.

And yet Jack would have us believe her film was faked after being obtained by the FBI... Are you disagreeing with Jack on this point, or are you really claiming the FBI had a film all along, and somehow convinced Muchmore months later to pretend it was her film?

Yeah, that's the ticket! All the witnesses LIED. What a simple explanation! Occams razor and all that crapola. Witnesses

all lie! That's the ticket! They lie in unison. Why have we wasted all this time studying EVIDENCE? We know that all

witnesses lie! Case closed! That's the ticket!

Jack

[Pat Speer]

What were Kellerman and Greer doing during the shooting? Not very much, according to the Z fake. Some very well-placed eyewitnesses said differently:

George Davis: “[He] saw guns in the hands of the secret service agents with President Kennedy, saw President Kennedy slumped forward, and the police motorcycle escort manouever swiftly about the area,” 22WCH837.

Jean Hill: “There was scrambling around in the front seat…Secret service agents shooting back…I just thought, Oh, goodness, the secret service is shooting back,” 6WCH208-212.

Hugh Betzner, Jr.: “I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pulled out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car,” 19WCH467.

S.M. Holland: “After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off,” 19WCH480.

Mrs. Marvin Faye Chism: “The two men in the front of the car stood up, and then when the second shot was fired, they all fell down and the car took off just like that,” 19WCH472.

Guns in the hands of Kellerman and Greer? One or both standing up? Shooting, er, "back"? Nah, never happened. It's not in the Z fake!

And because it never happened, no witnesses claimed the presidential limo stank of gunpowder after the shooting.

And if they did, they were wrong. Or mad, or bad, or merely confused.

Now I get it, Rigby. You're a lone nutter sent over to this forum to make us all look ridiculous. Good one.

The SS agent with the gun was Hickey, in the back-up car. Your pretending these witnesses accused Kellerman and Greer of pulling weapons is heinous, IMO. Pure disinformation. Shame on you.

[Pat Speer]

I fear this could prove rather a long wait, as Pat contemplates his explanation for his omission of this fascinating piece of irrelevance: Muchmore denied taking any film of the assassination scene. For the benefit of those unfamiliar with her statement to the FBI, dated December 4, 1963, follow this link:

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/wi..._hsca_0080a.gif

“She said she had a movie camera with her...but she advised that she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene”

So, in order to swallow the anti-alterationist Kool-Aid on the question of which film was shown by WNEW-TV at 00:46hrs on the morning of Tuesday, November 26, 1963, you have to discount the testimony of the very woman to whom the anti-alterationists attribute it. It's laughable, but true; and anything but unusual when it comes to the alleged film-takers and their allegedly unadulterated films. Consider the case of the bald guy himself...which I will, in due course.

Utter hoo-ha, Rigby. Muchmore LIED, it's that simple. She sold her film to UPI on 11-25 and was afraid she'd get in trouble with the FBI, so lied. The FBI, in fact, did not know of her film for months after, when stills from it magically appeared in a book put out by UPI.

And yet Jack would have us believe her film was faked after being obtained by the FBI... Are you disagreeing with Jack on this point, or are you really claiming the FBI had a film all along, and somehow convinced Muchmore months later to pretend it was her film?

Yeah, that's the ticket! All the witnesses LIED. What a simple explanation! Occams razor and all that crapola. Witnesses

all lie! That's the ticket! They lie in unison. Why have we wasted all this time studying EVIDENCE? We know that all

witnesses lie! Case closed! That's the ticket!

Jack

Jack, most people know that other people frequently remember things incorrectly, and make statements that are approximations of the truth, and even flat out lie. Only a few think witness statements and the recollections of the elderly should be accepted as fact, and that any film or photograph that contradicts these statements should be considered a fake. Most people tend to not trust these people on matters of any importance.

As far as Muchmore...what's YOUR theory? Was the initial FBI report on her mistaken, or did she lie? Or was her statement that she did not take any pictures the truth? Because you can't have it both ways.

Either she lied initially when she denied she took the film, or she lied later when she admitted taking the film...

Which is it?

And if she didn't take the film, who did?

[Paul Rigby]

Pat Speer tonight released the findings of a forensic sniffathon organised under the aegis of Gary Mack and the Sixth Form Museum of Correction.

“I can reveal that no, repeat no, aromas remotely suggestive of gunpowder have been detected emanating from the Zapruder original. This should clear the air definitively,” he announced, explaining that a random sample of anti-alterationists, led by Josiah Thompson and Jim DiEugenio, had produced no-takers for the outlandish suggestion that witnesses, both on Elm St and at Parkland Hospital, smelt gunpowder from within the presidential limousine (see below).

“Eleven out of ten us independently concluded what we had agreed in advance - that the whole theory is far-out nonsense invented by those in the grip of conspiratorial phantosmia.” Most of these sinister individuals had been inserted into the plot on November 22, 1963, he went, but had now been entirely discredited by the expert panel of film-sniffers assembled 46 years later.

“There is no credible evidence for the reek of gunpowder,” crowed panel member Craig Lamson, “and we have lots and lots of films and photographs to prove it. Who are you going to believe anyway, me or some guy who actually saw the assassination? It's a no-brainer."

The press conference ended with a rousing chorus of the new American national anthem, “God Bless Halliburton,” followed by the ceremonial burning of an effigy of Jim Fetzer.

Extract from Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams, Murder From Within (Santa Barbara, California: Probe, 1974), chapter 3, “Execution,” chapterlet entitled “Gunpowder”

In addition to the eyewitnesses and ear witnesses, there were also nose witnesses to the murder.

Those who smelled gunpowder at the scene of the shooting helped to pinpoint the source of the shots. Placed on a map (Fig. 3-7), they were within the path of the motorcade or near Elm St. The motorcade headed west down Elm St. into a modest breeze. (1)

Motorcycle escort officer Billy J. Martin, riding one half car length from the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine, recalled, "You could smell the gunpowder…you knew he wasn't far away. When you're that close you can smell the powder burning, why you - you've got to be pretty close to them…you could smell the gunpowder…right there in the street. (2)

Senator Ralph W. Yarborough rode in the second car behind the limousine. He smelled gunpowder in the street (3) and said it clung to the car throughout the race to Parkland Hospital. (4)

Two cars behind Yarborough was the Cabell car. Mrs. Cabell said that she "…was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder." (5) She added that Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. (6)

According to Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he "…very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets." (7)

Vergie Rackley stood in front of the depository building. "She recalled that after the second shot she smelled gunsmoke…" (8)

At the time of the shots, patrolman Joe M. Smith moved from the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets toward the triple underpass. When interviewed at that time, he stated that he smelled gunpowder near the underpass. (9)

Patrolman Earle V. Brown, stationed 100 yards west of the underpass, stated that he heard the shots and then smelled gunpowder as the car sped beneath him. (10)

(1) Billy J. Martin, “Testimony of B. J. Martin [dated April 3, 1964], “ in Hearings, v. 6, p.291.

Marion L. Baker, op. cit., v. 3, p. 245.

Mrs. Robert A. Reid, “Testimony of Mrs. Robert A. Reid [dated March 25, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 3, p. 273.

Arnold L. Rowland, “Testimony of Arnold Lewis Rowland [dated March 10, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 2, p.181.

Luke Mooney, “Testimony of Luke Mooney [dated March 25, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 3, p. 282.

James F. Romack, “Testimony of James Filbert Romack [dated April 8, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 6., p. 280.

A frame from the Muchmore film shows the coats of Ms. Hill and Ms. Moorman blowing in the wind (UPI, Four Days, p. 20).

(2) Interview with Billy J. Martin.

(3) Interview with Sen. Ralph W. Yarborough.

(4) Charles Roberts, The Truth About the Assassination, p.17.

The Texas Observer, Nov. 29, 1963, p. 5.

Seth Kantor, “Kantor Exhibit No. 3. ‘Handwritten notes made by Seth Kantor concerning events surrounding the assassination,’” in Hearings, v. 20, p. 351.

Manchester, op. cit., p. 177 (PB).

(5) Ibid., v. 7, p. 487

(6) Ibid., v. 7, p. 487.

(7) Tom C. Dillard, op. cit., v. 6, p. 165

(8) Vergie Rackley, Commission Document No. 5, pp. 66-67

(9) Joe M. Smith, “Testimony of Joe Marshall Smith [dated July 23, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 7, pp. 534-535.

Note: When interviewed by the FBI on Dec. 9, 1963, Smith denied this and claimed he smelt gunpowder in the parking lot by the depository (Commission Document No. 205 (SSID, JT), p. 310).

(10) Earle V. Brown, “Testimony of Earle V. Brown [dated April 7, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 6, p. 311.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

(9) Joe M. Smith, “Testimony of Joe Marshall Smith [dated July 23, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 7, pp. 534-535.

Note: When interviewed by the FBI on Dec. 9, 1963, Smith denied this and claimed he smelt gunpowder in the parking lot by the depository (Commission Document No. 205 (SSID, JT), p. 310).

Joe Marshall Smith smelled gunpowder in the parking lot. And he also met a man who flashed (bogus) SS credentials.

Thank you Paul for reminding us that Josiah Thompson demonstrated long ago that snipers were firing from the grassy knoll, just as the films and photos indicate (and the behavior of the witnesses).

I assume that was the intent of your post, no?

[Paul Rigby]

Now I get it, Rigby. You're a lone nutter sent over to this forum to make us all look ridiculous. Good one.

The SS agent with the gun was Hickey, in the back-up car. Your pretending these witnesses accused Kellerman and Greer of pulling weapons is heinous, IMO. Pure disinformation. Shame on you.

Like Tink “Cool” Thompson and his British equivalent, Austin “Groovy, baby” Powers, you’ve not really moved on much from, say, 1966/7, have you, Pat?

In almost constant attendance upon the dead President was Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent of the U.S. Secret Service, a devoted and distraught public servant of 23 years’ experience, then assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail. He is an exceptionally conscientious man who was in charge of the security detail on the President’s fatal trip to Texas.

Harold Weisberg. Whitewash II: The FBI-Secret Service Cover-up (NY: Dell Publishing Co. Inc., May 1967), p.184

Weisberg’s paean to the traitor and conspirator Kellerman was drivel in 1966/7, and it remains just that today. Based on pretty much the same evidence available to Weisberg nearly a decade before, Newcomb and Adams recognised his true role and exposed it:

Kellerman’s lies (some of them) examined in Murder From Within, chapter 3, “Execution”:

Roy H. Kellerman, the Secret Service agent in charge of the trip, sat in the right front seat of the limousine. (1) He neither offered warning nor took any action to protect the President.

Kellerman claimed, in an interview with two FBI agents the same day, that after this shot, the President said, "Get me to a hospital."(2) Later, he changed his story and quoted the President as having said, "My God, I am hit." In his testimony before the Warren Commission, which investigated the President's death, Kellerman called the FBI report incorrect. (3)

The shot that struck the President in the throat while he was facing ahead would mean the gunman was in front of the President, and, under these circumstances, Kellerman and the driver, Greer, could not escape suspicion. Having the President talking was Kellerman's way of emphasizing that the President was not struck in the throat.

Contrary to Kellerman's statements, the President was hit in the throat and therefore was unable to speak. According to Mrs. Kennedy, (4) the Governor (5) and his wife, (6) the President said nothing at this point, or later. The limousine driver, Secret Service agent William R. Greer, said he did not remember. (7)

Five days after the assassination, Kellerman tried to lead FBI investigators to believe that the President was shot in the back and not in the throat. Kellerman embellished his point by telling FBI agents that as a reaction to this shot the President reached round to his back with his left hand (8) - an action not shown on the film or described by witnesses.

Notes:

(1) Roy H. Kellerman, “Testimony of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service [dated March 9, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 2, pp. 63, 68.

(2) Commission Document No. 7, p.283.

(3) Kellerman, op. cit., pp.94, 95.

(4) Jacqueline Kennedy, op. cit., v. 5, p. 180.

(5) John B. Connally, Jr., op. cit., v. 4, p.134.

(6) Nellie Connally, “Testimony of Mrs. John Bowden Connally, Jr., [date April 21, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 4, p.147.

(7) Greer, op. cit, v. 2, p. 121.

(8) Commission Document No. 7, p.287.

[Pat Speer]

Now I get it, Rigby. You're a lone nutter sent over to this forum to make us all look ridiculous. Good one.

The SS agent with the gun was Hickey, in the back-up car. Your pretending these witnesses accused Kellerman and Greer of pulling weapons is heinous, IMO. Pure disinformation. Shame on you.

Like Tink “Cool” Thompson and his British equivalent, Austin “Groovy, baby” Powers, you’ve not really moved on much from, say, 1966/7, have you, Pat?

In almost constant attendance upon the dead President was Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent of the U.S. Secret Service, a devoted and distraught public servant of 23 years’ experience, then assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail. He is an exceptionally conscientious man who was in charge of the security detail on the President’s fatal trip to Texas.

Harold Weisberg. Whitewash II: The FBI-Secret Service Cover-up (NY: Dell Publishing Co. Inc., May 1967), p.184

Weisberg’s paean to the traitor and conspirator Kellerman was drivel in 1966/7, and it remains just that today. Based on pretty much the same evidence available to Weisberg nearly a decade before, Newcomb and Adams recognised his true role and exposed it:

Kellerman’s lies (some of them) examined in Murder From Within, chapter 3, “Execution”:

Roy H. Kellerman, the Secret Service agent in charge of the trip, sat in the right front seat of the limousine. (1) He neither offered warning nor took any action to protect the President.

Kellerman claimed, in an interview with two FBI agents the same day, that after this shot, the President said, "Get me to a hospital."(2) Later, he changed his story and quoted the President as having said, "My God, I am hit." In his testimony before the Warren Commission, which investigated the President's death, Kellerman called the FBI report incorrect. (3)

The shot that struck the President in the throat while he was facing ahead would mean the gunman was in front of the President, and, under these circumstances, Kellerman and the driver, Greer, could not escape suspicion. Having the President talking was Kellerman's way of emphasizing that the President was not struck in the throat.

Contrary to Kellerman's statements, the President was hit in the throat and therefore was unable to speak. According to Mrs. Kennedy, (4) the Governor (5) and his wife, (6) the President said nothing at this point, or later. The limousine driver, Secret Service agent William R. Greer, said he did not remember. (7)

Five days after the assassination, Kellerman tried to lead FBI investigators to believe that the President was shot in the back and not in the throat. Kellerman embellished his point by telling FBI agents that as a reaction to this shot the President reached round to his back with his left hand (8) - an action not shown on the film or described by witnesses.

Notes:

(1) Roy H. Kellerman, “Testimony of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service [dated March 9, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 2, pp. 63, 68.

(2) Commission Document No. 7, p.283.

(3) Kellerman, op. cit., pp.94, 95.

(4) Jacqueline Kennedy, op. cit., v. 5, p. 180.

(5) John B. Connally, Jr., op. cit., v. 4, p.134.

(6) Nellie Connally, “Testimony of Mrs. John Bowden Connally, Jr., [date April 21, 1964],” in Hearings, v. 4, p.147.

(7) Greer, op. cit, v. 2, p. 121.

(8) Commission Document No. 7, p.287.

Than you, Paul, for once again proving the fallibility of eyewitness testimony. Kellerman thought he heard JFK say something at the EXACT time everyone else heard Connally say something. The WC, amazingly, got this one right, and assumed he'd been mistaken.

Now, if Kellerman is such a bad guy, and a xxxx, why did he make clear, in testimony taken months after the shooting, after the speed at which the rifle could be fired had been determined as no less than 2 seconds, that he thought the last shots came in at almost the exact same time?

Was he a conspirator who wanted everyone to know there'd been a conspiracy?

P.S. What did the U.S. Secret Service ever do to you?

[Pat Speer]

Pat Speer tonight released the findings of a forensic sniffathon organised under the aegis of Gary Mack and the Sixth Form Museum of Correction.

“I can reveal that no, repeat no, aromas remotely suggestive of gunpowder have been detected emanating from the Zapruder original. This should clear the air definitively,” he announced, explaining that a random sample of anti-alterationists, led by Josiah Thompson and Jim DiEugenio, had produced no-takers for the outlandish suggestion that witnesses, both on Elm St and at Parkland Hospital, smelt gunpowder from within the presidential limousine (see below).

“Eleven out of ten us independently concluded what we had agreed in advance - that the whole theory is far-out nonsense invented by those in the grip of conspiratorial phantosmia.” Most of these sinister individuals had been inserted into the plot on November 22, 1963, he went, but had now been entirely discredited by the expert panel of film-sniffers assembled 46 years later.

“There is no credible evidence for the reek of gunpowder,” crowed panel member Craig Lamson, “and we have lots and lots of films and photographs to prove it. Who are you going to believe anyway, me or some guy who actually saw the assassination? It's a no-brainer."

The press conference ended with a rousing chorus of the new American national anthem, “God Bless Halliburton,” followed by the ceremonial burning of an effigy of Jim Fetzer.

Anyone who thinks myself, Mack, DiEugenio, and Lamson would conspire on anything needs to go outside and take a breath of fresh air.

Of course, what should I expect from someone who thinks Greer shot JFK...AND the Zapruder film--a bad copy of which is the only evidence ever really offered to show that Greer shot JFK--is fake.

A bit of a non-sequitur, I must say.

[David G. Healy]

Paul.... GREAT thread!

...

“There is no credible evidence for the reek of gunpowder,” crowed panel member Craig Lamson, “and we have lots and lots of films and photographs to prove it. Who are you going to believe anyway, me or some guy who actually saw the assassination? It's a no-brainer."

...

P-R-I-C-E-L-E-S-S

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Weisberg’s paean to the traitor and conspirator Kellerman was drivel in 1966/7, and it remains just that today. Based on pretty much the same evidence available to Weisberg nearly a decade before, Newcomb and Adams recognised his true role and exposed it:

For once I think Mr. Rigby is correct. Like Greer, Kellerman has SUSPECT written all over him.

Greer's job was to slow the limo and make JFK a sitting duck. Kellerman stole the body at gunpoint, to prevent a professional autopsy.

Two key players in the plot to kill JFK.

[David Andrews]

Pat: "Now, if Kellerman is such a bad guy, and a xxxx, why did he make clear, in testimony taken months after the shooting, after the speed at which the rifle could be fired had been determined as no less than 2 seconds, that he thought the last shots came in at almost the exact same time? "

I think this is one of many equivocations that you hear from people involved in Dallas, right up to LBJ's "conspiracy" mumblings. I believe that even people involved were horrified afterward (if only because of the endurance of the tragedy in the media and public imagination) and adopted their own kinds of "limited hangout," in which they told as much truth as they dared - even about themselves.

Equivocate: to give equal voice to opposing positions, one of the most elegant Latin adaptations in English.

Edited January 21, 2010 by David Andrews

[Jack White]

Pat Speer tonight released the findings of a forensic sniffathon organised under the aegis of Gary Mack and the Sixth Form Museum of Correction.

“I can reveal that no, repeat no, aromas remotely suggestive of gunpowder have been detected emanating from the Zapruder original. This should clear the air definitively,” he announced, explaining that a random sample of anti-alterationists, led by Josiah Thompson and Jim DiEugenio, had produced no-takers for the outlandish suggestion that witnesses, both on Elm St and at Parkland Hospital, smelt gunpowder from within the presidential limousine (see below).

“Eleven out of ten us independently concluded what we had agreed in advance - that the whole theory is far-out nonsense invented by those in the grip of conspiratorial phantosmia.” Most of these sinister individuals had been inserted into the plot on November 22, 1963, he went, but had now been entirely discredited by the expert panel of film-sniffers assembled 46 years later.

“There is no credible evidence for the reek of gunpowder,” crowed panel member Craig Lamson, “and we have lots and lots of films and photographs to prove it. Who are you going to believe anyway, me or some guy who actually saw the assassination? It's a no-brainer."

The press conference ended with a rousing chorus of the new American national anthem, “God Bless Halliburton,” followed by the ceremonial burning of an effigy of Jim Fetzer.

Anyone who thinks myself, Mack, DiEugenio, and Lamson would conspire on anything needs to go outside and take a breath of fresh air.

Of course, what should I expect from someone who thinks Greer shot JFK...AND the Zapruder film--a bad copy of which is the only evidence ever really offered to show that Greer shot JFK--is fake.

A bit of a non-sequitur, I must say.

Leave DiEugenio out of that group, please.

[Jack White]

Weisberg’s paean to the traitor and conspirator Kellerman was drivel in 1966/7, and it remains just that today. Based on pretty much the same evidence available to Weisberg nearly a decade before, Newcomb and Adams recognised his true role and exposed it:

For once I think Mr. Rigby is correct. Like Greer, Kellerman has SUSPECT written all over him.

Greer's job was to slow the limo and make JFK a sitting duck. Kellerman stole the body at gunpoint, to prevent a professional autopsy.

Two key players in the plot to kill JFK.

Mr. Carroll is catching on.

[Paul Rigby]

For once I think Mr. Rigby is correct. Like Greer, Kellerman has SUSPECT written all over him.

Greer's job was to slow the limo and make JFK a sitting duck. Kellerman stole the body at gunpoint, to prevent a professional autopsy.

Two key players in the plot to kill JFK.

'Fraid so, though obviously much greater responsibility lies far higher up the killing chain.

[Paul Rigby]

Leave DiEugenio out of that group, please.

Jack,

Take a good listen to Di's comments on last week's Black Op radio. They were appalling, as he first denounced pro-alterationists, then conceded there were "anomalies" in the films. It was dreadful stuff, by turns patronising, contradictory, superficial and hypocritical. Has he done some great research? Absolutely. But that doesn't excuse or explain his performance last week. And we shouldn't hesitate to say so.

Paul