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ZAPRUDER FRAME # 374 & a few others


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We are in agreement on the back wound too. And who is going to quibble with a Brit gal, eh? <g>

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb

The way I look at the back wound is like this: if it wasn't there and was added postmortem then it was a massive fundamental faux-pax on the part of the conspirators. Why add it if you can't add it in the right place?

Why put the pressure on Specter and Ford forcing them to perform their linguistic and natural-laws of physics acrobatics by putting the hole in the wrong place? If you needed the back wound to come out of his throat then surely you'd put it in the back of his neck and photograph it there?

Lee

Good point. Ford, of course, tried to help out there by moving the wound. Had there not been a bullet hole in the back (and the coat and shirt) they could have gone with the throat wound having been made by an exiting fragment from the head .... save for the fact that JFK had already obviously been wounded before the head shot ... but, nevertheless, that was considered at one point in time anyway (see WC executive transcript from 1/27/64). That would have worked with a non transiting back bullet ... and would have made CE399 easier to contend with for them too.

At any rate, we agree on there having been a wound in the back. Do we agree that it transited and exited the throat?

Bests,

Barb :-)

Only LONENUTTERS hold that view.

Only in your closed little world, Jack.

This is total nonsense. Dr. Mantik has shown conclusively that the magic bullet could NOT have "transited and exited

the throat" as lonenutters agree.

Pay attention to what is being said. Not a word was said about David or any magic bullet having struck both JFK and Connally.

There are CTs who believe/acknowledge that a bullet hit JFK in the back, transited and exited the throat. I didn't say a thing about it being any magic bullet that went on to hit Connally. I don't believe in any magic bullet or single bullet theory; I do believe a bullet went in JFK's back, and that it exited his throat. I believe Connally took his own bullet less than 2 secs later.

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We are in agreement on the back wound too. And who is going to quibble with a Brit gal, eh? <g>

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb

The way I look at the back wound is like this: if it wasn't there and was added postmortem then it was a massive fundamental faux-pax on the part of the conspirators. Why add it if you can't add it in the right place?

Why put the pressure on Specter and Ford forcing them to perform their linguistic and natural-laws of physics acrobatics by putting the hole in the wrong place? If you needed the back wound to come out of his throat then surely you'd put it in the back of his neck and photograph it there?

Lee

Good point. Ford, of course, tried to help out there by moving the wound. Had there not been a bullet hole in the back (and the coat and shirt) they could have gone with the throat wound having been made by an exiting fragment from the head .... save for the fact that JFK had already obviously been wounded before the head shot ... but, nevertheless, that was considered at one point in time anyway (see WC executive transcript from 1/27/64). That would have worked with a non transiting back bullet ... and would have made CE399 easier to contend with for them too.

At any rate, we agree on there having been a wound in the back. Do we agree that it transited and exited the throat?

Bests,

Barb :-)

Only LONENUTTERS hold that view.

Only in your closed little world, Jack.

This is total nonsense. Dr. Mantik has shown conclusively that the magic bullet could NOT have "transited and exited

the throat" as lonenutters agree.

Pay attention to what is being said. Not a word was said about David or any magic bullet having struck both JFK and Connally.

There are CTs who believe/acknowledge that a bullet hit JFK in the back, transited and exited the throat. I didn't say a thing about it being any magic bullet that went on to hit Connally. I don't believe in any magic bullet or single bullet theory; I do believe a bullet went in JFK's back, and that it exited his throat. I believe Connally took his own bullet less than 2 secs later.

So you dispute the findings of Dr.Mantik?

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This is total nonsense. Dr. Mantik has shown conclusively that the magic bullet could NOT have "transited and exited

the throat" as lonenutters agree.

Pay attention to what is being said. Not a word was said about David or any magic bullet having struck both JFK and Connally.

There are CTs who believe/acknowledge that a bullet hit JFK in the back, transited and exited the throat. I didn't say a thing about it being any magic bullet that went on to hit Connally. I don't believe in any magic bullet or single bullet theory; I do believe a bullet went in JFK's back, and that it exited his throat. I believe Connally took his own bullet less than 2 secs later.

So you dispute the findings of Dr.Mantik?

You are trying to divert this to something on Mantik. My only comment here was, and will remain to be, on your claim that only LNs believe a bullet entered the back and exited the throat. I said that was not so. There are CTs who acknowledge an into the back/out the throat transit. Again, nothing to do with David Mantik or anyone else ... or with any magic bullet and single bullet theory.

Third time is the charm, I hope. It'll have to be, enough nonsense. :-)

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I think a shot from the east corner of the second floor is possible. A Cat's Sneeze reloaded in a particular way with a particular bullet shape, gives a three to four close shot pattern where the ahape of penetration is very much like the back wound, and given its performance as in old rifles in the baltic, its near silence and near guaranteed internal fragmentation, ( in order to only take out the one shot, and, hopefully, with that one shot. ). The backup is the high powered ice cold expert snipers, which may be the ole boy down the road who'd been hunting since a little kid. This imo is essential. Any wavering could be disastrous, so being either psychotic to some degree or an acquired eperience (war) seems a reasonable profile.

I'm convinced that the case for the Tague strike being a setup rivals the accepted truth of the matter, with the curb damage actually being a wheel lead strike and the drop of blood was as he said a shaving cut, and the sting was the reaction that happens when a cut is flooded with sweat (salt) as a result of what he saw, anyway, being set up can have its benefits. imo it arguably does not say anything about trajectory except in so far as a reverse analysis of it. So in the end it does indeed lead to a road; a road familiar to some.

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Kathy, that's, as explained, a delineation of values by merging a transparent edge detection layer on an enhanced, in various ways, crop.

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I don't believe the back bullet exited his throat entirely - I believe a tiny fragment of it did hence the small (entrance/exit) wound found by the Dallas doctors. I am certain the missile was low powered (6.5mm) and this results in Kennedy slightly lurching forward after being hit and the gagging/choking reflex action we see. A more powerful calibre bullet would have doubled him over. I believe the missile damaged his right lung (contusion) and the small fragment exiting his neck (that fragmented off after its impact with the C6 vertebrae) begins the incredibly quick deterioration of the president's breathing.

The question it raises for me is this. In light of the fact that during the opening hours of the cover up they knew they had a whole bullet with a small amount of grain missing this is what I believe the original story was to be. CE399 hits Kennedy in the back, makes a shallow wound, but a small piece of it traverses the body and exits the throat. Upon CPR procedures, the bullet is dislodged and found on Kennedy's stretcher. I believe they wanted minimal damage to bone/organs in the autopsy report to explain the lack of damage to the "magic 6.5mm bullet" found. The actual fragmented bullet remained inside Kennedy back and chest cavity because no fragments could be removed as the FBI already had the "bullet" in their possession. Or alternatively, the fragments were removed prior to autopsy.

Then the Tague shot throws a spanner in the works and the magic bullet does the first of its magic tricks and jumps from Kennedy's stretcher to Connally's. The story changes and this "magic" whole bullet ends up traversing the body of JFK and produces all of Connally's wounds as well.

All roads HAD TO lead back to CE399, even if that journey needed changing.

Hi Lee, thanks for the detailed response. I am open to the possibility of a frag (bullet or bone) having exited the throat - and the WC said that was being considered in that 1-27-64 executive session transcript. If it were a piece of bone, it would have had to come from the head shot, of course. At any rate, my main problem with it having been an exiting bullet frag from the shot into his back is the back wound itself. I have a very hard time with a bullet entering the back, even to a finger length, and then being worked out during external cardiac massage. I have asked a couple of pathologists about this, and both doubted that bullet would have reappeared during CPR ... and both doubted very much it would not have gone right on through. In fact, "no way" was essentially the response of both.

I can't argue bullet power, save to say that the Carcano 6.5 has quite the penetration power, as I have seen myself in tests others have done using bone, meat, wood, etc. It certainly had enough power that it should have gone thru JFK's body relatively easily given that it was going thru soft tissue and there is no anatomical evidence that it actual struck any bone. There is a hairline fracture to the tip of the T1 process, but that could have been caused by other than a direct strike ( a direct strike should have smashed it quite well), or have been a premortem injury. I don't see anything in JFK's reactive movement there that I would term "gagging/choking" - could have been, but his hands are under his chin, not at his throat, and gagging and choking brings on reflexive coughing and he doesn't appear, to me at least, to be trying to cough something up or out. The tracheal injury and any blood in his mouth/throat at that point certainly could have made it harder to breathe adequately, but it was the destruction of his brain that took care of breathing and everything else.

I am interested in your thinking that the bullet entered as high as C6 - and that it struck C6 with enough force to sheer a fragment off the bullet. There is no indication of any damage to C6. How do you reconcile that, and why C6?

You posit the remaining bullet/fragments would have been left in the body or removed prior to the autopsy. As you know, the x-rays show no bullet or frags in the torso or neck. Could they have removed the bullet pre-autopsy? The trach wound gives anyone attempting to do that a portal. But how would they know there was anything in there to try and fish out ... and blindly reaching around without an x-ray to guide the process would seem futile, at best, imo. How do you think that would have been accomplished ... and when and where?

The pedigree of CE 399 is certainly in doubt. And there's no doubt some road had to lead back to it, as there they were with a nearly whole bullet to account for. And the Tague wounding definitely did throw a monkeywrench into the works. As late as the end of April 1964, the 2 day long studies of the Z film with the ballistics people, Connally, WC commissioners and a gang of plenty, reported that they expected to report 3 bullets/3 hits ... first shot into JFK, second into Connally producing all his wounds, and the third shot into JFK's head. The rifle timing requirements put a real kink in that ... and, of course, so did the Tague cheek wounding, which they didn't learn of until about sometime in June, as I recall, Tague being requested to appear to testify in early July, that testimony actually happening in mid-July. As I recall, Tague had been interviewed by the FBI in December ... so go figure.

What is your opinion on the possibility of a dud bullet having entered the back, penetrated a very short distance and worked its way out during CPR ... and the throat wound having been caused by an exiting frag (bullet or bone) from the head shot? There is the prob of the bullet having been a dud in the first place and plopping out at Parkland. Plus then, the bullet would have to have been found on JFK's stretcher ...

So, it seems we agree something exited the throat, on the points made about CE399 and on Tague, but disagree on some of the mechanics.

Thanks again for going into this for me, and I am interested in your reasoning on C6 and the other things I mentioned.

Have a great weekend,

Barb :-)

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