John Dolva Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I dont know if wer'e on the same wavelength on this (or any other matter) but from my prespective that's a very astute comment, Todd. When the MSC files were opened it soon became clear to many that many stories had indeed base in fact. Coke Bottle stamps, Legal killings of negroes, conferences involving police, doctors, coroners, preparing the next days killing/s, the rubberstamping (let alone incompetence of various persons in volatile times) of gunshot deaths as heart attacks, the MSC's complicity, that spanned states, in locating and alerting the Law there of their location. While they were still not found, wild rumours circulated such as RFK had secreted them behind the iron wall, the stony faced southern coroners viewing the examination of Shwereners mothers sponsored forensic expert and his horror as it dawned of him how variant the report was to what he found, which corresponds with witness statements, often fragmentary. (From memory, he got out of there quick smart.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Hinrichs Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi Raymond Thank you Martin (I DO have more patience than Craig). Thank you. Earlier I asked: How come, if this is a blowout wound, we see NO SIGN of blood or brain tissue? To be honest Ray, i never really understood why people believe that this damaged part of JFK's head had to be red. It appears to me while studying particular frames that even in frame 314 (where we should see minimum portions of the brain) no sign of red blood is visible. It's looks rather brownish than redish even in frame 314. Please compare below the top of the head with the red roses we can see in Z#320. Let me also add another question: If this is a REAL blowout wound, how come it is nowhere near where the Parkland witnesses remembered seeing a wound? I gathered some WC testimonies from witnesses at Parkland for you. I've included Clint Hill. Mr. SPECTER - Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound? Dr. McCLELLAND - As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral haft, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound? Dr. PETERS - Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput. Mr. SPECTER - What did you notice in the occiput? Dr. PETERS - It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound ? Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the President? Dr. CARRICO - The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to 7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition? Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head. Mr. Specter. You saw the condition of his what? Miss BOWRON. The back of his head. Mr. Specter. And what was that condition? Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad---you know. Mr. Specter. How many holes did you see? Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I assume Arlen Specter getting blister while hearing this. What all of them describe is the damage we can also see in this autopsie photographs. Parts of JFK's face are visible and also the top (from front to back) of his head are visible. Some parts are a mix of brain and hair. What we see in the later Zapruder frames is this damage. The quality of this the Zapruder film in general is unfortunately too bad to see all that details. best to you Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Hinrichs Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I see the shape of JFK's head. Thats what you asked for, correct? And thats the problem C.Lamson. Your shape has almost nothing to do with reality. Here in this Gif below we can see the shape of JFK's head at Zapruder frame 337. Let us compare this Gif with that what you have done to the image (ouch) In my outline is a part of Kennedy's forehead intentionelly not included. This portions can be seen in particular in frames 326-330. Whether this is actually hair or brain tissue hanging out of the cranium has to be further examined. I tend to say the latter. In this Zapruder frames below we can clearly see a damage at the top of Kennedy's head. Portions of his cranium at this location was simply gone. You included this area to his head. C.L. Error We don't have to discuss the face of JFK in your work. Your lax outline is nowhere near to reality. C.L Error You guessed the lower back of JFK's head overpainting Jackies white glove. This part is not visible to the camera and therefore hidden. Well you can guess. Let me use your words: Believe/feeling is no proof. Step by step? Sheesh, lets just get on with it, no need to drag it out over a bunch of posts. Post it all and be done with it. You want to dictate the tempo of my research and when i have to post???? Guess what the answer is..... I don't know what you do the whole time. I have a company with serious work to do. You apparently not. I hope Ray has some patience, I have very little for you. Post your stuff and get on with it... Well, when in China a rice sack topple or you made statements like this....has the same effect to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) deleted Edited February 1, 2010 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) I see the shape of JFK's head. Thats what you asked for, correct? And thats the problem C.Lamson. Your shape has almost nothing to do with reality. Well if my shape has nothing to do with reality , then yours is wrong as well since they are the same except for the area of the top of the head which YOU skip...M.H. FAIL Here in this Gif below we can see the shape of JFK's head at Zapruder frame 337. Let us compare this Gif with that what you have done to the image (ouch) Lets see, exactly as mine except you missed the top of his head. OUCH indeed M.H. FAIL In my outline is a part of Kennedy's forehead intentionelly not included. This portions can be seen in particular in frames 326-330. Whether this is actually hair or brain tissue hanging out of the cranium has to be further examined. I tend to say the latter. Lets see, exactly as yours except you missed the top of his head. OUCH indeed M.H. FAIL In this Zapruder frames below we can clearly see a damage at the top of Kennedy's head. Portions of his cranium at this location was simply gone. You included this area to his head. C.L. Error Sorry to burst your bubble there Martin, but the section of JFK's head you declined to outline in your lax drawing is actuallly there, regardless of the content (complete head or not) Its still PART of the shape of his head. Thats what you asked for, and I provided. Again Epic fail M.H. It's pretty clear by now this is no longer about trying you trying to prove your point that the area in question is hair or a blowout, but rather your attempt (and epic fail) to disect my rough outline of JFK's head. Fine, you draw better outlines than I do. OH wait, you screwed yours up too. Sheesh you FAIL at that too! We don't have to discuss the face of JFK in your work. Your lax outline is nowhere near to reality. C.L Error Well good since the face had ZERO to do with the subject at hand. M.H EPIC FAIL You guessed the lower back of JFK's head overpainting Jackies white glove. This part is not visible to the camera and therefore hidden. Well you can guess. Let me use your words: Believe/feeling is no proof. No I do not "guess at all. I simply did as you told and viewed the surrounding frames. Those frames show quite clearly the section of JFK's head under the gloved hand. You asked for the shape of JFK's head. I gave you the shape of the top and back of JFK's head..(the area under discussion if you recall). That shape INCLUDES the area under her glove. I don't have to guess his head is there, I can SEE it in the previous frames. M.H. MAJOR EPIC FAIL at his own directions. OUCH! Step by step? Sheesh, lets just get on with it, no need to drag it out over a bunch of posts. Post it all and be done with it. You want to dictate the tempo of my research and when i have to post???? Guess what the answer is..... I don't know what you do the whole time. I have a company with serious work to do. You apparently not. I can say what I please and you can respond as you please. However your "response" is a major failure. I hope Ray has some patience, I have very little for you. Post your stuff and get on with it... Well, when in China a rice sack topple or you made statements like this....has the same effect to me. Nice analogy. You work here is worth about a sack of rice or less. Now you want to attempt to actually prove it's not hair..... Now Martin, How can you discount the fact that the area in question slowly, with the passage of time and the forward movement of the head becomes more exposed to the direct rays of the sun? Edited February 1, 2010 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi Raymond Thank you Martin (I DO have more patience than Craig). Thank you. Earlier I asked: How come, if this is a blowout wound, we see NO SIGN of blood or brain tissue? To be honest Ray, i never really understood why people believe that this damaged part of JFK's head had to be red. It appears to me while studying particular frames that even in frame 314 (where we should see minimum portions of the brain) no sign of red blood is visible. It's looks rather brownish than redish even in frame 314. Please compare below the top of the head with the red roses we can see in Z#320. Let me also add another question: If this is a REAL blowout wound, how come it is nowhere near where the Parkland witnesses remembered seeing a wound? I gathered some WC testimonies from witnesses at Parkland for you. I've included Clint Hill. Mr. SPECTER - Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound? Dr. McCLELLAND - As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral haft, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound? Dr. PETERS - Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember--I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput. Mr. SPECTER - What did you notice in the occiput? Dr. PETERS - It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound ? Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER - Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the President? Dr. CARRICO - The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to 7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. SPECTER. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition? Miss BOWRON. He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head. Mr. Specter. You saw the condition of his what? Miss BOWRON. The back of his head. Mr. Specter. And what was that condition? Miss BOWRON. Well, it was very bad---you know. Mr. Specter. How many holes did you see? Miss BOWRON. I just saw one large hole. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I assume Arlen Specter getting blister while hearing this. What all of them describe is the damage we can also see in this autopsie photographs. Parts of JFK's face are visible and also the top (from front to back) of his head are visible. Some parts are a mix of brain and hair. What we see in the later Zapruder frames is this damage. The quality of this the Zapruder film in general is unfortunately too bad to see all that details. best to you Martin So Martin exactly WHERE is the damage to JFK's head you posit in your original post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Beautiful, Duncan. You beat me to it with a presicion i could not muster, (not for want of trying). Now his anatomy (ear, cheek) looks right. (I skulpt so I had a sense about it being as you have shown) EDIT ADD : This is where I got to using software then a pen, but just couldn't get his cheek, and also not his ear right. Edited February 1, 2010 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Uh Martin I did and the Shape on his head behaves as it should for it to be a highlight.... Show you study Craig. Please draw an outline of JFK's head. ______________________________________________ Something must have caused Jackie to shift her attention from the front to the rear of her husband's head between frames 335 and 337... --Thomas Yea..his head was falling forward past her face. ___________________________________________________ Thanks Craig! I guess that would explain it. --Thomas _____________________________________________________ OK, so why was he falling forward? Perhaps because he'd been shot from the front and his body was rebounding from being slammed against the seat? --Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 _____________________________________________________OK, so why was he falling forward? Perhaps because he'd been shot from the front and his body was rebounding from being slammed against the seat? --Thomas He was dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Junkkarinen Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Excellent, Duncan. Really excellent. Thanks for posting this ... it makes it quite clear to all to see. Bests, Barb :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 _____________________________________________________OK, so why was he falling forward? Perhaps because he'd been shot from the front and his body was rebounding from being slammed against the seat? --Thomas He was dead... How was he dead? He had a pulse when he arrived at parkland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 How much sunlight was there in Trauma Room 1? Good call Jim, how can anyone say that the Parkland doctors were wrong? Dean, You act like all of the Parkland Doctors are always right about everything they claim. Todd Some of them were wrong when they were pressured into changing their minds like 25 years later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 How much sunlight was there in Trauma Room 1? Good call Jim, how can anyone say that the Parkland doctors were wrong? Just curious dean, Which "blowout" is the correct one? 337 or 374. Jim seems to find this question too hot to handle. Maybe you can answer it. 337 shows the blowout for sure I just looked at my good copy of 374 for a minute or so, im going to have to get back to you after I study it in detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 _____________________________________________________OK, so why was he falling forward? Perhaps because he'd been shot from the front and his body was rebounding from being slammed against the seat? --Thomas He was dead... How was he dead? He had a pulse when he arrived at parkland So they say...his head was blown apart...he was dead...no coming back from that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 How much sunlight was there in Trauma Room 1? Good call Jim, how can anyone say that the Parkland doctors were wrong? Just curious dean, Which "blowout" is the correct one? 337 or 374. Jim seems to find this question too hot to handle. Maybe you can answer it. 337 shows the blowout for sure I just looked at my good copy of 374 for a minute or so, im going to have to get back to you after I study it in detail So its the one near Jackies face on the back left? Total blowout? Hairs gone, scalp, skull gone...brains showing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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