John Dugan Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Read Rush to Judgement by Mark Lane Stop it, you're killing me! So there's no evidence that supports the single bullet theory? * JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. * JFK and Connally aligned perfectly to receive the wounds they did from a single bullet. * The line of the bullet goes straight back to Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD. * No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten). There are a few pointers. It's all rather obvious, really. You really would learn something if you read it. The Warren Report said CE399 traversed 2 humans and shattered a human bone and didn't deform, except for a slight flattening at the base. NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. * JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. The Governor said he believes he and JFK were hit by different bullets. Wouldn't he know more than anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 So there's no evidence that supports the single bullet theory?* JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. A well debunked fairy tale. Connally denied it and the Zap shows JFK reacting to the first shot well before Connally was hit. I found it hilarious when your hero Dale Myers showed JFK leisurely reaching for his throat BEFORE he was struck! * JFK and Connally aligned perfectly to receive the wounds they did from a single bullet. Not with a back wound at T3. Not with a entrance wound in the throat. What was it about JFK's wounds that made everyone who saw them unable to see accurately, Paul? * The line of the bullet goes straight back to Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Pure circular logic. * No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten). Factually incorrect. The HSCA studied Betzner #3 and Willis #5 and determined that Black Dog Man was a human with a "very distinct straight-line feature" in the "region of his hands." Rosemary Willis described this individual as a "conspicuous" person who seemed to "disappear the next instant" right after JFK was struck in the throat. There are a few pointers. It's all rather obvious, really. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Read Rush to Judgement by Mark Lane Stop it, you're killing me! So there's no evidence that supports the single bullet theory? * JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. * JFK and Connally aligned perfectly to receive the wounds they did from a single bullet. * The line of the bullet goes straight back to Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD. * No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten). There are a few pointers. It's all rather obvious, really. I take it that Paul wants to be added to the list of MAJOR PLAYERS. Or is he just that badly informed! Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) - Believe the single bullet theory is possible - No, I think it is probable. There's no evidence to substantiate this claim, so why keep making it? Read the Warren Report. Paul, You post that you respect "evidence"? What evidence would have to be put in front of you to persuade you to stop posting advice like, "read the Warren report"? Would this do it? http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&so...sa=N&tab=wpDeep Politics and the Death of JFK - Page 155 Peter Dale Scott - History - 1996 - 424 pages Tom Clark told me afterward that it led to very high places. ... I learned later that it pointed to the Hilton Hotel chain, Henry Crown, ... http://dspace.wrlc.org/doc/bitstream/2041/...026zdisplay.pdf or http://news.google.com/archivesearch?scori...GO,&spell=1 by Drew Pearson October 26, 1963 BUSINESSMEN AND POLiTICIANS WHOSE NAMES WERE HOUSEHOLD WORDS IN. CHICAGO,. SOME OF THEM, IT WAS STATED, HAD REFORMED* YET THEY '*ILL. CONTROLLED THE MOB* ... http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=del...1&scoring=a Arizona Probe Links Del Webb, Mobsters . Modesto Bee - Google News Archive - Mar 20, 1977 Del Webb Corp. of Phoenix, a national development company, is accused of being "an ... Ill 1966 Crown and Webb sold the ranch to a partnership of RobertW. ... Ex- Yankees owner linked to mobsters . - Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive Personality: Boss in Baseball and Building; Del Webb, Co-Owner of … New York Times - Jul 9, 1961 The other week, for instance, the Del E. Webb Corporation announced it had joined forces with Henry Crown, Chicago industrialist, and .the Exchange Building . Tom Clark's 1946 knowledge of the background of Henry Crown did not keep him from doing this.: http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=jud...391724319249464Ex-farmer, judge Crown remembered as 'wise, fair' - Daily Herald - NewsBank - Mar 8, 1997 Crown clerked for US Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark from 1956 to 1959 and ... law at the Chicago firm of Jenner and Block, where he became a partner. ... John J. Crown, judge, philanthropist - Chicago Sun-Times - NewsBank - Mar 6, 1997 John J. Crown, 67, a former Cook County Circuit Court judge and youngest son of ... In 1959, he joined the law firm of Jenner & Block. ... See any gross conflict of interests, yet, Paul? How about Tom Clark vouching for the appointment of Henry Crown's attorney and law firm associate of Crown's son, John, to the position of senior assistant counsel on the Warren Commission? What area of the WC investigation did Crown's attorney, Albert Jenner, Jr. focus on, Paul? http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=t...nG=Search+BooksThe Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 96 Donald Gibson - History - 2000 - 306 pages+ "..Two of Jenner's references were mentioned by name. Tom Clark, former Attorney General of the US ..." http://news.google.com/archivesearch?pz=1&...rs.+earl+warren HILTON PLANE TURNS BACK ON BERLIN HOP Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 29, 1958 The Hiltons are on their way' to the opening of the newest Hilton hostelry, in West Berlin. With them are Mrs. Earl Warren and her daughter, Virginia; ... Hilton Plane Lands After Engine Trouble . - St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive AIRLINER TURNS BACK; Hilton Party on Plane Include... - New York Times http://books.google.com/books?pz=1&cf=...sa=N&tab=np Havana Before Castro: When Cuba Was a Tropical Playground - Page 218 Peter Moruzzi - History - 2008 - 256 pages LEFT: Welton Becket, Conrad Hilton, and guest of honor Virginia Warren at the grand-opening gala. FACING: The Hilton name dominates Havana's skyline Pleasure Island: Tourism and Temptation in Cuba - Page 191 Rosalie Schwartz - History - 1999 - 247 pages Conrad Hilton brought his own bodyguard, as did Virginia Warren, daughter of the US chief justice. ... Paul, please point to the page in the WC report where the background of this woman is explained? [PDF]Warren Commission, Volume XXII: CE 1389 - FBI report dated May 19 ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Q`uick View On May 13, 1964, Mrs. VIRGINIA Hale 6475 Fortune Road, ... Mrs . HALE stated she did not give the names of MAX CLARK or PETER GREGORY ... http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...H22_CE_1389.pdf This is her background, Paul.: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20076/robert-hale-2....All-American’s family More than 3,500 miles and a world of difference separate the primitive ranch in Alaska — where Papa Pilgrim held court over his flock — and the home on tree-lined Fortune Road in west Fort Worth where Bobby Hale grew up with his twin brother, Billy, and younger brother, Tommy. Their mother, Virginia, was an accomplished bridge player. Their father, I.B. Hale, was an All-American lineman for the Texas Christian University Horned Frogs football team and its captain during the team’s undefeated national championship season in 1938. He was a good friend and college roommate of another famous TCU player, Davey O’Brien.... Would you have questioned the reliability of the WC report, Paul, if you had known that the appointment of Albert Jenner as assistant counsel, and then the designation of Jenner to lead the investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the killings of JFK and or Oswald, was to say the least, tainted by Tom Clark's and Earl Warren's own behavior, inside knowledge and associations with Jenner's most prominent client, Henry Crown. Would not Crown have been a suspect in any routine police homicide investigation? This happened one month after Virginia Hale sent Oswald to Leslie Welding to apply for a job. How was the integrity of the WC report affected by the supression of the FBI documents that establish that the sons of Virginia Hale were observed by agents of the FBI, illegally entering the LA apartment of Judith Exner, an apartment the FBI had under surveillance because it was associated with Johnny Rosselli. Virginia Hale's husband was former FBI SA, IB Hale, employed as industrial security manager at Henry Crown's General Dynamics Ft. Worth plants? Considering that the background of Mrs. Hale was also not included in the description of her statement; that she was the wife of former FBI SA IB Hale, and that Hale was emploued at the time as a security manager by General Dynamics, and that the FBI had a secret report, witnessed by FBI agents, that we know was read and initialed by FBI top managers, wouldn't it be fair to say that the omission of Virginia Hale's background was intentional, and thus an official act of deception? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry164182 Considering all of the above, Paul, which portions of the WC report resulting from the work of Albert E. Jenner Jr. can you say with confidence, were reliable? Would it be the determination in the WC report that no compelling evidence of conspiracy was found? Wouldn't a more accurate way to put it be that no compelling evidence of conspiracy was included in the report by it's seven commissioners? Edited February 2, 2010 by Tom Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 - Believe Oswald fired any shots - Yes, all of them.- Believe Oswald killed Tippit - Yes. - Believe the single bullet theory is possible - No, I think it is probable. - Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions. - From behind only. - Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas. - I think they were slow to react. - Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved - No. eight, nine, or ten shots appear to have been fired from six different locations. There's no evidence to substantiate this claim, so why keep making it? Paul. Baker wants to become a MAJOR player. But he is only a bit player so far. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Read Rush to Judgement by Mark Lane Stop it, you're killing me! So there's no evidence that supports the single bullet theory? * JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. * JFK and Connally aligned perfectly to receive the wounds they did from a single bullet. * The line of the bullet goes straight back to Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD. * No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten). There are a few pointers. It's all rather obvious, really. You must be related to Dale Myers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dugan Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Read Rush to Judgement by Mark Lane Stop it, you're killing me! So there's no evidence that supports the single bullet theory? * JFK and Connally reacting simultaneously to being shot. * JFK and Connally aligned perfectly to receive the wounds they did from a single bullet. * The line of the bullet goes straight back to Oswald on the sixth floor of the TSBD. * No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten). There are a few pointers. It's all rather obvious, really. You must be related to Dale Myers and Gerald Posner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) Oswald's smirk is the Mona Lisa smile of the affair. As long as he's Mr. Passive-but-Snarky, "You're the cop, you tell me!" and asking to be represented by lefty John Abt, he's anticipating one variety of outcome. When he loses his cool over Ruth Paine, gets all tremulous before the reporters, and starts phoning John Hurt to vouch for him as an intel op, he's trying to forestall another outcome - being hung out to dry. The question is: What was he expecting all through the smirk phase? To be exonerated? Notice that the smirk has reappeared by the time of the County Jail perp walk on Sunday. Clearly he's expecting something again - he's not dumb enough to let the flashbulbs and floods really convince him that he's a "world-historical individual." But he's dumb enough to smile at Jack Ruby and think he's a friend. After all, Jack helped reinforce his lefty credentials by correcting Henry Wade - surely an idiot stooge to someone with Oz's connections - on the FPCC identity. One would like to think he fired no shots. Innocence? Incompetence? Is one as safe as Marguerite in one's assumptions? That smirk hides all: "Brother, you won't find anything there." He was the best-connected 24-year-old that the world has ever (partly) seen. Something drew him into that ugly anti-Kennedy circle and kept him there. So - no medals for Oz just yet. Edited February 3, 2010 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie Dea Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) Tom Scully........Thanks for your info in regard to Virgina Hale, at the Dallas Emp Comm., who sent Oswald to Leslie Welding Co. That part I did know, but I had never connected her to also being IB Hale's wife. ...and the mother of the twins, Billy and Tommy Hale. But, I did know about the Exner apartment break-in being possibly connnected to these twins. I am sure you are probably aware that Billy was married to Gov Connelly's daughter, Kathleen, when both were quite young. Kathleen died under a quite mysterous and suspicious shot-gun discharge, that was called self-inflicted.....with Billy sitting right there at the time. Years later Billy became regarded as Papa Pilgrim, who had 15 children. In later years he was arrested and charged and imprisonned for criimes against his oldest daugthter. ...of kidnapping, beating her to a pulp and incest. He died in prison several months ago. This is all for a different thread topic though. Back to Don's thread and my replies...... I'd like to know if you: - Believe Oswald fired any shots...............No - Believe Oswald killed Tippit....................No I use to feel that he might have, But now I don't believe we have been told hardly any of the truth of the Tippit shooting. Plus, I really can't find any justification for him to have shot Tippit. - Believe the single bullet theory is possible......No - Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions.........Yes - Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas..........Inaction, on their part. Although I do consider they may have possibly been given some reason for that. I also consider a very few might have been involved and ohers that something was going to occur and yet others had no idea. But this all could have created some confusion between them. I do feel that some were involved. - Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved......Most likely! However, it is hard to know just who was involved in what aspect and to what extent. The Conspiracy, the Implementation or in the coverup afterwards. But I now believe (I have changed my mind a few times) that it was the far right fascist related regime of the Military Industrial Complex and the far right of the Military Some in high places were aware of it, but just shut their eyes and let it happen, for their own purposes. I'll get things started by saying that I think Oswald fired no weapons that day. I tend to agree with Jim Garrison that he was some sort of intelligence operative, who was assigned at the time of the assassination to infiltrate a group he was told was planning on murdering JFK. I don't think Oswald killed Tippit. I think the single bullet theory is scientifically impossible. I think shots were fired from at least two directions (at least one rear location and one front location). I think the Secret Service failed miserably on the day of the assassination, and I can't accept that their failure was due merely to incompetence. I think Greer, Kellerman and Emory Roberts, at the very least, had prior knowledge of the assassination. I think LBJ and other high public officials (Hoover, McGeorge Bundy, among others) were active participants in the conspiracy and coverup. In short, I think there was a massive conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy and coverup the crime afterwards. I think the most powerful forces in our society at that time were involved. So, what's your take? For once, let's hear everyone's opinion without referencing the perceived shortcomings of other posters. Where do you stand? -------------------- Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9291 Edited February 2, 2010 by Dixie Dea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Junkkarinen Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I think it would be illuminating for posters to state their own personal beliefs as to what happened on November 22, 1963. In light of the fact that some seem to have changed their position over the years (as I have certainly pointed out several times), it would be educational for all of us to see who now believes what. This is not to infer that there is anything suspicious about changing one's beliefs. I just think that posters on this forum should be up front about where they're coming from. I'd like to know if you: - Believe Oswald fired any shots NO - Believe Oswald killed Tippit Most likely - Believe the single bullet theory is possible Possible for the rifle to accomplish, yes .... but not possible in this case as I believe JFK and Connally took separate bullets, barely 2 seconds apart. - Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions From two locations to the rear - 2 from TSBD, 1 from lower, like DalTex - and open to strong possibility of a near simultaneous shot through the head from the front/right. - Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas A bit slow on the switch, but not by nefarious design - Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved I think the conspiracy and the coverup were two separate operations. Who was in the conspiracy to kill ... don't know, pick your players, could have included some rogue elements with connections to some govt agencies. The conspiracy to coverup ... yes, had to involve high places. So, what's your take? For once, let's hear everyone's opinion without referencing the perceived shortcomings of other posters. Where do you stand? Interesting idea, Don ... too bad it didn't take long for the above request to be ignored and get into discussing beliefs ... sigh ... but great so many are answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Gillespie Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) I think it would be illuminating for posters to state their own personal beliefs as to what happened on November 22, 1963. In light of the fact that some seem to have changed their position over the years (as I have certainly pointed out several times), it would be educational for all of us to see who now believes what. This is not to infer that there is anything suspicious about changing one's beliefs. I just think that posters on this forum should be up front about where they're coming from. I'd like to know if you: - Believe Oswald fired any shots - Believe Oswald killed Tippit - Believe the single bullet theory is possible - Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions - Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas - Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved ___________________________________________________________ Hi Don, I don't see the conspiracy as 'massive' because it would not have succeeded and remained uncovered for so many years if it weren't for the various and disparate levels of awareness of what was in play (think about all the drills on 911 and the piggybacking and usurping of them; the dupes, patsies, and operatives all under the use of compartmentalization for this and so many other operations). A lot of people were placed in Dealey Plaza with varying assignments and states of mind. The Three Tramps, for example, were observers for what seemed an altogether different operation, at least that is the way I see it because of training and experience. It shouldn't be curious that photos submitted by the great research contributors on this Forum show an extraordinary number of likenesses to known operatives. Gotcha, and keep quiet boys. That said, here I go: - Believe Oswald fired any shots NO - Believe Oswald killed Tippit ABSOLUTELY; I CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE (I recommend "With Malice" by Dale Myers with whom I've corresponded and with whom I continue to disagree with his contention that Oswald killed both Kennedy and Tippit. But Myers' work on the witnesses, timeline and evidence is superb, as well as his debunking of other contentions, i.e. Earlene Roberts and the magic honking horn. The party line here and elsewhere is to extend Oswald's victimization beyond patsy status for some reason(s). He really doesn't need it. I consider him a martyr, as did Jim Garrison and many members here. - Believe the single bullet theory is possible. NO - Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions YES - Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas INCOMPETENCE, YES, BUT ALSO MANIPULATED FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN LIKE THE 112TH M.I. HQ & SO MANY OTHER GROUPS & ORGANIZATIONS - Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved YES Another recommendation, this on a recent book: Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann's "Legacy Of Secrecy" in which is revealed that the U.S. was on the brink of invading Cuba, as part of a JFK authorized coup, just ten days after the assassination and that this sparked some furious covering up through the use of several covert actions, leaving RFK ironically assisting in the coverup. Does that smell of Mafia modus operandi? Trust me. Another fascinating aspect of this excellent book is the use of said Mafia by the CIA as well as the Mafia's use of the THEM. No slouches, those capi. So, pardon my ranting. I just couldn't dip my toe. I'm sure I'm not unique in that regard. Excellent idea, Don. I like it when members brainstorm. Thanks So Much, JG Edited February 3, 2010 by John Gillespie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Gillespie Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) Interesting idea, Don ... too bad it didn't take long for the above request to be ignored and get into discussing beliefs ... sigh ... but great so many are answering. [/quote ------------------------- Yeah, wait'll I get my hands on that guy from Boston (oops, that was me...mea culpa) Regards JG Edited February 2, 2010 by John Gillespie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb Junkkarinen Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Interesting idea, Don ... too bad it didn't take long for the above request to be ignored and get into discussing beliefs ... sigh ... but great so many are answering.[/quote ------------------------- Yeah, wait'll I get my hands on that guy from Boston (oops, that was me...mea culpa) Regards JG LOL! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) - did Oswald fire any shots - I don't know - did Oswald kill Tippit - I don't know - is the single bullet theory possible - only under circumstances that I have never seen or heard any mention of - were shots fired from the front, back or both directions - front being the 180 degrees anterior of kennedys head and vice versa, of course - assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas - questionable - were LBJ and/or other high public officials involved - And: I don't know. Or: yes, with the proviso that an official need not necessarily be a government official esit:edit Edited February 3, 2010 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Jeffries Posted February 3, 2010 Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thanks for all the good responses. I think it's interesting for everyone to see what others believe about the basic issues in this case. I continue to be fascinated about those who think Tippit might have, or did shoot Oswald, or that Oswald might have fired some shots, or that the single bullet theory is possible, among other things. I'm not casting any dispersions, and certainly don't think this means someone is a disinfo agent. I am genuinely curious about this. Would those of you who fit into one or more of these categories mind saying if this has always been your belief, or if you once were more of an "extremist" in this regard (like me, for instance)? If your beliefs have evolved in any of these areas, I'd love to know what made them change. Again, this is not to throw suspicion on those whose opinions have changed. We know that researchers can change their views on a particular aspect of this case. Jack White, for instance, was not always a film alterationist. Thanks again for responding, and I'd love to hear from more of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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