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I would not say that most of my recollections are faulty concerning the crash and no, logically something cannot be "definitely reported" in a paper that does not exist, so perhaps I mean in the particular paper that does exist, the story was reported, to which I have shown in a post from another site detailing toe very same info I received. Yes, he was flipping cakes then vanished for the most part, that is/was known.

So you confused the name of the paper not a big deal, but you also misremembered its content. They said he was “sighted” at the two week event but aides denied he’d been there. They did NOT say he definitely was there or when or who spotted him. Even Tom says it was unlikely he was there the weekend in question.

Now you have made a claim that I have claimed something you feel they did not claim, you must be careful because I have the proof for Blow's comments, that is not difficult at all seeing I've read it a million timesl. For proof of Blow's comments? Check out "American Son" pg. 261. I will quote:
"I'm flying to Hyannis Port for my cousin's wedding," he said. I glanced down as John's foot--even the short distance back from the restaurant had tired him--then gave him a skeptical look. "Don't worry," he said. "I'm flying with an instructor."

OK I stand corrected, and apologize. So nearly 3 years after the fact Blow did claim that Kennedy told him this shortly after lunch that day. But he seems not to have said anything at the time or to the NTSB and even in his book he gave indication he thought there really was a CFI on board. It is available on Amazon Reader and the excerpt you quoted is on a university website

http://www.amazon.com/American-Son-Portrai...ader_0805070516

http://rts.dec.ecnu.edu.cn/yjs/ygg/ygg07/u...a1/gg06a120.htm

Most reviewers saw Blow as someone who wanted to cash in on his relationship with Kennedy after signing a non disclosure agreement and forbidding George staff from talking to the press.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Mar10.html

Now, here is my logical question (in general), where did the claim originate with certainty that John had NO CFI on board that plane if in his own words to Blow he was having one

Why did Blow’s claim made in 2002 not affect 1999 press accounts or the 2000 NTSB report? Was that a serious question? As to why it became excepted there was no CFI see my previous posts.

as well as no documented records of anyone seeing he and is company get onto the plane?

Pay attention people DID see them getting on the plane and made no mention of seeing a CFI one told Salon "I told my family, 'I can't believe he's going up in this weather'"

I mean, what would you rather believe knowing John was one of the most cautious pilots his CFI's had ever known
?

I’ll believe Raziwell, Bailey and JFK jr.’s CFI that he didn’t have one as well as the fact none was found or went missing. Additionally he went 300 feet below regulation altitude for over a minute just before his “last contact”. Also he'd trained with 6 CFI's in the 80's and at least 3 in the late 90's, only one (from the latter) said he was "very cautions" not that he "was one of the most cautious pilots [he] had ever known"

For this super cautious pilot, they're also saying that no flight plan was filed, which makes no ridiculous sense whatsoever. Filing a flight plan is quite fundamental from what I have learned and something I would believe, moreso than not, that John would have done definitely, as well as have a CFI on board when his wife and sis in law are on board with him and after recently having a cast removed. We have more reason to believe than not, that not only did John possibly filed a flight plan, but that he most likely had a CFI on that plane.

Filing a flight plan was not mandatory for the flight because it never went through controlled airspace, if you can turn up evidence that he normally did so for his solo flights post it here. Short of that you’ve got nothing but speculation. As I previously pointed out according to the FAA “he never called Flight Service for aviation weather information, for instance, although FAA regulations state that a pilot "should."” As for him being extra cautious because his wife was on board given the reports about their relationship I don’t know how much of a factor that would have been.

DON WROTE;

Len can ridicule Tom Flocco and other internet web sites that tackled this story, but the fact is no establishment press organ did, or probably ever will report anything but official statements on the JFK, Jr. crash. Thus, those internet sources are all we have.

The reasoning here is a bit circular, the lack of solid evidence of foul play is considered evidence of foul play. Flocco is a crack pot who claimed Barbara Oslen was arrested on the non-existent Polish-Austrian border, bearing a Vatican passport and counterfeit securities in the extinct Italian Lira. As per the John-John crash, he claims the Bushs (Pappa Doc and Jr.), the Clintons (Bill and Hillary) and "Mike" Harari (a retired Mossad agent) were spotted personally tampering with his plane.

Also, Coast Guard officer Todd Burgun should be questioned about why he engaged in an extended television interview about the 9:39 p.m. conversation JFK, Jr. had with the FAA, if the conversation never really happened.

Did he say anything other than the FAA told the “last contact” was at that time? UPI quoted WCVB as discussing the content of the call but that doesn’t match the footage included in the documentary you posted. You said you have several hours of video coverage. Does any of it correspond to the UPI article (see one of my earlier posts for the link)? If so can you post here?

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JFK, Jr. through his George magazine was supporting then President Bill Clinton in his on going battle with the British. Evans Ambrose Pritchard was the British poison pen that had helped to popularize every Clinton scandal from Whitewater to Paul Jones on to Monica Lewinsky. I believe Junior ran a piece on Pritchard in his George magazine titled "Cheerio old Chump".

President Clinton had to in a sense pull the wreckage of JFK Jr's. plane out of the ocean. Another message to President Clinton from the British.

British Empire media mogul Rupert Murdoch and his NY Post newspaper ran a dirty editorial piece on the death of JFK Jr. that was so outrageous it had to be pulled from circulation.

The Telegraph's reporter quotes JFK, Jr.'s George magazine as citing a White House source commenting on the departure of Evans-Pritchard: "That's another British invasion we're glad is over." This "British invasion," like the last, burned Washington but in a different way than did General Ross in 1814. Mr. Evans-Pritchard explained how even he was taken in by the Clinton charm when he first arrived and before he became entangled in what he calls a "spitting match with President Clinton."

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/archive/gover...rd-1-04-98.html

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JFK Jr. Gave Up Copilot as Ankle Healed

By Dale Russakoff and Lynne Duke

Washington Post Staff Writers

Wednesday, July 21, 1999; Page A1

NEW YORK, July 20 – Last Thursday morning John F. Kennedy Jr. experienced the simplest of pleasures: he got his blasted cast off. To say his broken ankle had crimped his style would be an understatement. Here was an avid stroller of the sidewalks of New York hobbling on crutches, a daring rollerblader unable to squeeze on his skate.

But the best part of getting rid of the cast, he told acquaintances, was that he could at last pilot solo again. Since breaking his ankle in a paraglider crash three weeks earlier, Kennedy had felt the need to fly with a copilot. Friday's flight, he told acquaintances with exhilaration, would be his first time alone at the controls since the accident.

[…]

Three weeks ago, just after Kennedy crashed his paraglider, Barlow became fearful that Kennedy was becoming too heady about his flying, and warned him to view the accident as a warning.

"You know just enough to be dangerous," Barlow, 51, recalled telling his younger friend. "You have confidence in the air, which could harm you. ... You're going to find yourself flying in instrument conditions because you think you can."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/natio...light072199.htm

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So you confused the name of the paper not a big deal, but you also misremembered its content. They said he was “sighted” at the two week event but aides denied he’d been there. They did NOT say he definitely was there or when or who spotted him. Even Tom says it was unlikely he was there the weekend in question.

Unlikely, but not impossible. Some, if not most, of his staff said that they did not know where he was. Either it was a lie/cover or they honestly did not know in general, yet we have 2 papers making a big deal out of it. If he was sighted at the event, well we could count that as definitely being there. Yes, I would think that aides would say otherwise lol, like Hughes who demanded a retraction (for what? why?...what does it matter right?) If Tom says it was unlikely then at least give me some meat that would attempt to move me in that direction. Otherwise you have a paper making a "big deal" out of it involving Karen Hughes, that's a bit of meat I'd say.

OK I stand corrected, and apologize. So nearly 3 years after the fact Blow did claim that Kennedy told him this shortly after lunch that day. But he seems not to have said anything at the time or to the NTSB and even in his book he gave indication he thought there really was a CFI on board. It is available on Amazon Reader and the excerpt you quoted is on a university website

http://www.amazon.com/American-Son-Portrai...ader_0805070516

http://rts.dec.ecnu.edu.cn/yjs/ygg/ygg07/u...a1/gg06a120.htm

Most reviewers saw Blow as someone who wanted to cash in on his relationship with Kennedy after signing a non disclosure agreement and forbidding George staff from talking to the press.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Mar10.html

Why did Blow’s claim made in 2002 not affect 1999 press accounts or the 2000 NTSB report? Was that a serious question? As to why it became excepted there was no CFI see my previous posts.

Well I am not sure....the claim about his wanting to cash in seems like some sort of an ad hominem, if may not be but it surely seems considering the context. I am not sure how Blow could gain anything when he documents in his book a small, nearly insignificant exchange that would oppose the "govt. line". I am concentrating on why we would have every reason to believe that John would have had an instructor with him given the circumstances by using John's own words as reported by a good friend of his. I would honestly think or safely assume Blow lost alot when John died. Perhaps Blow's claim did not affect any account at the time because he was probably within the minority crown having such a statement in his book, so people would naturally tend to look over it unless you are digging through a rabbit hole. It was a VERY serious question because it was "common knowledge" that John did not have a CFI onboard. I also tend to take NTSB details with a grain of salt....I don't know lol. I mean hell, they do not mention much (or all) of his phone calls that day either, and those SHOULD be documented for obvious reasons. he apparently talked with a seemingly shady individual known as Robert Merena that day and Merena's story is a story in itself.

Pay attention people DID see them getting on the plane and made no mention of seeing a CFI one told Salon "I told my family, 'I can't believe he's going up in this weather'"

I think we'll both attempt to pay closer attention from this period onward. I have honestly searched for any eyewitnesses to those who would have seen them get onto the plane and have found none, could you give a few names if any of witnesses? Surely, perhaps no one mentioned that there was a CFI present, but it honestly does not mean there was not one present. I am simply studying the barrage of media accounts or front page readings that continually mentioned that John "wanted to do it alone". Please, grant me the name of this party that has reported to Salon.com.

I’ll believe Raziwell, Bailey and JFK jr.’s CFI that he didn’t have one as well as the fact none was found or went missing. Additionally he went 300 feet below regulation altitude for over a minute just before his “last contact”. Also he'd trained with 6 CFI's in the 80's and at least 3 in the late 90's, only one (from the latter) said he was "very cautions" not that he "was one of the most cautious pilots [he] had ever known"

Well lol......theoretically, that is/would be one of the reasons for the 15+ hour delay. There was "no CFI", so it would make sense to take care of that evidence. We have a report of choppers out over the sear before Stanley and his crew were ordered to search along coastal lines. We have stonewalling also by the FAA to the Kennedy Family. Actually according to the N-TAP, he did exactly what any fundamentally skilled pilot would have done I thought when he descended 300 ft. for the final radio call (reported by Burgun). Also, if one of his CFI's said that lol....would it not be enough to at least convince the average joe that "ok...the guy at least knew his stuff"? Jr. was qualified to be an instructor at least.

Filing a flight plan was not mandatory for the flight because it never went through controlled airspace, if you can turn up evidence that he normally did so for his solo flights post it here. Short of that you’ve got nothing but speculation. As I previously pointed out according to the FAA “he never called Flight Service for aviation weather information, for instance, although FAA regulations state that a pilot "should."” As for him being extra cautious because his wife was on board given the reports about their relationship I don’t know how much of a factor that would have been.

Not mandatory and perhaps he did not file one but according to Hankey, he spoke to a CFI who did not believe that John would not have done that. Being "very cautious" It doesn't seem out of the park to file one anyways. However, it would be dumb to have a flight plan show up showing the presence of a CFI when John "wanted to do it alone" lol. We have a pretty big seat missing from the plane, while 5 others were recovered, we have a 15+ hr delay in the search (when the FAA KNEW the plane was down and where it was) it smells fishy. Those are only basic fundamental points as well. There was a phone call that happened the night of the crash at approx 10-11 (the Budd call) where the N Number was given, that is more than enough reason to begin a search. I cannot fathom a reasonable excuse for the attitude of the FAA employee on the phone with Budd and my goodness Colby lol, no matter what they were going through, it was his wife and I would assume they loved one another until the moment they died. It seems fitting that a man as cautious as he would not dare try to worry or scare his wife when it came to his flying, this includes having a CFI (because he was going on visual flight rules anyway, which would be another great reason to have a CFI with him to log hours to pass his VFR exam) since he had his cast recently removed (and would also make it a bit difficult to steer on the ground before take off and possibly after) and flying at night with questionable visibility (even though it was reported as 8-10 miles).

As for the WP article lol.....it seems to bolster the standard hogwash line "dumb kennedy kid playing with danger and dies, he was too cocky" or something to that effect. I'd like the source material for the article posted. I'd like the source for "riday's flight, he told acquaintances with exhilaration..." comment, because I have Blow's words, you have the W. Posts. I don't see why Blow would not have mentioned that episode.

P.S - I also learned apparently that John was never seen flying his new Saratoga without a CFI. Perhaps it should be looked into.

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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So you confused the name of the paper not a big deal, but you also misremembered its content. They said he was “sighted” at the two week event but aides denied he’d been there. They did NOT say he definitely was there or when or who spotted him. Even Tom says it was unlikely he was there the weekend in question.

Unlikely, but not impossible. Some, if not most, of his staff said that they did not know where he was. Either it was a lie/cover or they honestly did not know in general, yet we have 2 papers making a big deal out of it. If he was sighted at the event, well we could count that as definitely being there.

What is the source of your claim “Some, if not most, of his staff said that they did not know where he was”?

Neither paper made “a big deal out of it” that would indicate placement on the front page i.e. A1 but both placed it in the middle of the local section. The Santa Rosa Press Democrat reported it as rumor in an article on page B3 and the Sacramento Bee seems to have reported it as a rumor as well in an article on page B4.

NOTABLES SIGHTED AT BOHEMIAN RETREAT

Published on July 28, 1999

© 1999- The Press Democrat

Correction: For the Record published August 17, 1999

Aides to presidential candidate George W. Bush deny the Texas governor attended the annual Bohemian Grove encampment last month in Monte Rio. A story on Page B1 July 28 said there were reports that he had.

BYLINE: B.W. Rose

Staff Writer PAGE: B3

The two-week encampment of rich and powerful newsmakers at the Bohemian Grove is winding down with tales of sightings of power brokers, presidential contenders and entertainment stars.

Although officials at the Bohemian Club routinely decline to affirm attendance at the exclusive all-male gathering, reports abound that grove visitors included former President George Bush, along with his increasingly famous sons, Texas Gov. George W. Bush, and Florida Gov. Jeb Bush.

Reliable reports also had former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and former Gen. Colin Powell attending some portions of the festivities.

Also spotted, according to camp insiders, were John Ratzenberger, the bar-dwelling postman on Cheers, and big-screen actor Danny Glover.

[...]

Note that they classified the “reports” about Kissinger, Gingrich and Powell as “reliable” but failed to use a similar adjective for the ones about the Bushes

The Bee also seems to have indicated his presence was not confirmed but since only the retraction is available online it’s not possible to say this with any certainty.

SETTING IT STRAIGHT The Sacramento Bee

- Sacramento Bee - NewsBank - Aug 13, 1999

An Aug. 2 article on page B4 about the Bohemian Club's Annual Summer Encampment in Sonoma County stated that Texas Gov. George W. Bush was sighted at the retreat. A campaign press secretary said Bush did not attend the gathering.

As was the case of the Press Democrat’s headline a newspaper saying a well known person “was sighted at” at some location often means they been told he or she was there but are not sure enough its true to say they were.

Insiders said Fray was sighted at Fairfax's Sydney head office last week. Fairfax would not confirm Mr Oakley's move to Canberra in a statement yesterday

.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fairf...0-1111118234321

A family spokeswoman said the Rockefeller family does not have any connections to the Gordon area and police have not told them of any possible sightings at this time.

Police confirmed homicide detectives visited the Gordon General Store at about 1.15pm on Tuesday.

Mr Rockefeller has reportedly also been seen in other locations across Victoria including Newtown, Moorabbin and Shepparton.

Melbourne radio yesterday reported that Mr Rockefeller was sighted at a Newtown supermarket on Sunday night.

http://www.news.com.au/business/police-con...i-1225824283498

“And anyone who has been hanging around Broad Street has probably spied Sting hanging around the Kimmel (where he was sighted on Wednesday) and the Ritz-Carlton, where he was spotted with his missus, Trudy Styler.”

http://citypaper.net/blogs/criticalmass/20...gin-about-town/

Maddie was sighted again in Morocco
.

The Mail on Sunday (London, England) September 23, 2007

PRIVATE investigators hired by Gerry and Kate McCann are pursuing asecond sighting of Madeleine in Morocco.

Control Risks Group, who have been commissioned to look into leads that thePortuguese police have failed to follow, believe that there may be somecredibility to the theory that Madeleine was taken to North Africa by herabductors.

Six days after Madeleine went missing, Norwegian holidaymaker Mari Pollard, 45,saw a lost-looking toddler ask a man in a petrol station in Marrakesh: Can Isee Mummy soon?The McCanns have now learned of a second sighting of a childsimilar to Maddie at a hotel next door to that garage by a man from Yorkshire.A source said... what hesaw. When Kate and Gerry went to Morocco a few months ago they were assured the authorities ...

The placement of the article reinforces the impression that the paper wasn’t sure. If they could confirm that the leading candidate for POTUS (also son of the previous POTUS and governor of the 2nd largest state) was surreptitiously in the area why not put it at the very least on the 1st page of the local section? Given that both papers used the word sighted it’s quite probable that the Sacramento paper simply repeating what “the Press” had reported.

"If Tom says it was unlikely then at least give me some meat that would attempt to move me in that direction."

I agree Tom, care to elaborate?

OK I stand corrected, and apologize. So nearly 3 years after the fact Blow did claim that Kennedy told him this shortly after lunch that day. But he seems not to have said anything at the time or to the NTSB and even in his book he gave indication he thought there really was a CFI on board. It is available on Amazon Reader and the excerpt you quoted is on a university website

Most reviewers saw Blow as someone who wanted to cash in on his relationship with Kennedy after signing a non disclosure agreement and forbidding George staff from talking to the press.

Why did Blow’s claim made in 2002 not affect 1999 press accounts or the 2000 NTSB report? Was that a serious question? As to why it became excepted there was no CFI see my previous posts.

Well I am not sure....the claim about his wanting to cash in seems like some sort of an ad hominem, if may not be but it surely seems considering the context. I am not sure how Blow could gain anything when he documents in his book a small, nearly insignificant exchange that would oppose the "govt. line".

Blow wanting to cash in and promote himself would diminish his credibility because it give him an incentive to make the story more exciting and exaggerate his own importance. From the parts I’ve read the critics were right it seems more about him than Kennedy. He story didn’t really ‘oppose the "govt. line"’ because he never indicated he actually thoughKennedy had a CFI with him during the flight

"I am concentrating on why we would have every reason to believe that John would have had an instructor with him given the circumstances by using John's own words as reported by a good friend of his. I would honestly think or safely assume Blow lost alot when John died."

While the immediate result was that he lost his job (which he might have soon lost anyway) in the long run it seems to have benefitted him, he went from being the editor of magazine on the verge of bankruptcy to a six figure advance #1 bestselling author, other book deals followed.

"Perhaps Blow's claim did not affect any account at the time because he was probably within the minority crown having such a statement in his book, so people would naturally tend to look over it unless you are digging through a rabbit hole."

It didn’t affect any 1999 – 2001 accounts because it didn’t come out till 2002, no Alice in Wonderland analogies needed

"It was a VERY serious question because it was "common knowledge" that John did not have a CFI onboard. I also tend to take NTSB details with a grain of salt....I don't know lol. I mean hell, they do not mention much (or all) of his phone calls that day either, and those SHOULD be documented for obvious reasons. he apparently talked with a seemingly shady individual known as Robert Merena that day and Merena's story is a story in itself."

They would only be interested in the calls that were directly related to the flight and/or indicative of his state of mind. They did refer to his call with Merena. What makes him “shady” other than the fact he said Kennedy told him he wanted to fly alone? He seems highly qualified his commercial license was issued in 1968.

Pay attention people DID see them getting on the plane and made no mention of seeing a CFI one told Salon "I told my family, 'I can't believe he's going up in this weather'"

I think we'll both attempt to pay closer attention from this period onward. I have honestly searched for any eyewitnesses to those who would have seen them get onto the plane and have found none, could you give a few names if any of witnesses?

Then you haven't searched very well because it was mentioned upthread and in the NTSB report. One witness wasKyle Bailey, he said his family and some teenage girls driving by saw Kennedy at the airport as well, see one of my earlier posts. And as I recently discovered, he was seen by a CFI:

For TriBeCa neighbors, familiar faces Last encounters with couple recalled

Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY - Jul 19, 1999 Page 6.A

Text Word Count: 629

Abstract

NEW YORK -- On a narrow street in the TriBeCa section of the city, a crowd gathered outside a famous couple's apartment Sunday in near-silent tribute.

People buried the stoop in fragrant flower bouquets, and they watched the metal door to the loft. Some seemed to believe they could will John F. Kennedy Jr. and his wife, Carolyn Bessette, back from near-certain tragedy if they only stayed long enough.

At the Essex County Airport in West Caldwell, N.J., it was Kennedy's familiar voice that caused flight instructor
Tim Simard
to break from his own pre-flight preparations Friday night.
Simard listened and watched as Kennedy's Piper Saratoga rumbled down the runway before lifting off into a dark, hazy sky
.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/acces...mp;pqatl=google

"Nighttime over the water, there is nothing lit on the water so you're over a big, black spot,"
New Jersey flight instructor Tim Simard
told CBS News Correspondent Maggie Cooper.

Every pilot learns the basics about cockpit instruments, but an instrument rating takes far more training, which Kennedy didn't have. "An instrument pilot who can't see the ground or the horizon is going to keep his wings [level] using that instrument," said Simard.

Kennedy was flying by visual flight rules, or VFR, that hazy Friday night. And Simard said a pilot without an instrument rating in that situation "shouldn't be where he is."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/07/19/...main54917.shtml

So Simard USAToday he saw Kennedy take off and made no mention of seeing a CFI and indicated to CBS he was not accompanied by an instrument pilot. This fits with:

1. Merena saying Kennedy told him he wanted to “do it alone”,

2. The unnamed friends of Kennedy telling the WaPo the same thing and attributing it to his having the cast removed

3. Bailey not mentioning seeing a CFI and telling his family “I can't believe he's going up in this weather"

4. Raziwell telling the FAA "He's relatively new, you know, he only got his license a year ago. Maybe I'm just, like, paranoid, but I'm just getting nervous" after she (or another woman) previously told another FAA office he was inexperienced.

5. Unattributed reports from various outlets that he didn’t have a CFI

6. The fact that 3 of his CFI’s were still alive after the crash

7. The fact that even 10+ years later no CFI’s seem to have been reported missing, was it some guy with no friends or family?

8. The fact that no CFI was found

9. The fact that both the CFIs he used after he broke his foot indicated that the only thing they had to help him with was using the foot pedals

10. The fact that he went 300 below regulation altitude before his “last contact”

"Surely, perhaps no one mentioned that there was a CFI present, but it honestly does not mean there was not one present."

Oh yes of course the magical invisible CFI who:

- Kennedy said he didn’t want

- no one saw at the airport

- wasn’t found in the plane and

- wasn’t reported missing.

Perhaps he was a leprecon!

"Well lol......theoretically, that is/would be one of the reasons for the 15+ hour delay."

What 15 hour delay? The Coast Guard was not informed till about 2 AM and searches began with in a few hours though no one knew where to look at first.

"There was "no CFI", so it would make sense to take care of that evidence. We have a report of choppers out over the sear before Stanley and his crew were ordered to search along coastal lines."

I don’t know what you are talking about

"We have stonewalling also by the FAA to the Kennedy Family."

Ditto

"Actually according to the N-TAP, he did exactly what any fundamentally skilled pilot would have done I thought when he descended 300 ft. for the final radio call (reported by Burgun)."

No he went 300 feet below FAA minimum altitude, I don’t think “fundamentally skilled pilot(s)” do that on a regular basis. Burgun claimed no direct knowledge of the call saying that’s what he was told by the FAA, it’s possible he conflated radar contact with radio contact.

"Also, if one of his CFI's said that lol....would it not be enough to at least convince the average joe that "ok...the guy at least knew his stuff"? Jr. was qualified to be an instructor at least."

No he wasn’t, you need a commercial or ATP certificate and an instrument rating plus a number of other requirement he didn’t meet. With the possible exception of Ziad Jarrah he was less qualified than any of the 9/11 hijack-pilots.

Filing a flight plan was not mandatory for the flight because it never went through controlled airspace, if you can turn up evidence that he normally did so for his solo flights post it here. Short of that you’ve got nothing but speculation. As I previously pointed out according to the FAA “he never called Flight Service for aviation weather information, for instance, although FAA regulations state that a pilot "should."” As for him being extra cautious because his wife was on board given the reports about their relationship I don’t know how much of a factor that would have been.

Not mandatory and perhaps he did not file one but according to Hankey, he spoke to a CFI who did not believe that John would not have done that.

Citation

"Being "very cautious" It doesn't seem out of the park to file one anyways. However, it would be dumb to have a flight plan show up showing the presence of a CFI when John "wanted to do it alone" lol."

The conspiracy is getting pretty complex including various individuals at the FAA, Coast Guard, NTSB and various friends and relatives. Only one of his 9 CFI’s said he was "very cautious".

"We have a pretty big seat missing from the plane, while 5 others were recovered,"

A normal size seat along with many other parts of the plane which according to a CT hit the water at 200 mph. Would it have been easier for the CIA/Seals whoever just to take the CFI and leave his seat in the Atlantic? I think it was "Tink" Thompson and Jesse Ventura both veterans of the Navy's elite Underwater Demolition Team. The former was angry because John-John was going to publish an article in George in which he said he thought the Z-film was fake the latter because he reneged on a promise to run on an independent Kennedy/Ventura ticket for the White House.

"we have a 15+ hr delay in the search (when the FAA KNEW the plane was down and where it was)"

Citation

"it smells fishy. Those are only basic fundamental points as well. There was a phone call that happened the night of the crash at approx 10-11 (the Budd call) where the N Number was given, that is more than enough reason to begin a search. I cannot fathom a reasonable excuse for the attitude of the FAA employee on the phone with Budd"

The transcript of the call was released and judging by press accounts of it was not sufficient to initiate a search.

"and my goodness Colby lol, no matter what they were going through, it was his wife and I would assume they loved one another until the moment they died. It seems fitting that a man as cautious as he would not dare try to worry or scare his wife when it came to his flying, this includes having a CFI (because he was going on visual flight rules anyway, which would be another great reason to have a CFI with him to log hours to pass his VFR exam) since he had his cast recently removed (and would also make it a bit difficult to steer on the ground before take off and possibly after) and flying at night with questionable visibility (even though it was reported as 8-10 miles)."

Either that or it indicates he was careless since the weight of the evidence indicates he flew without a CFI. You do realize that saying it makes no sense he would fly without one after saying he was qualified to be one is a contradiction. You have no basis for your assumption that his wife would be “worried or scared” by the lack of a CFI.

"As for the WP article lol.....it seems to bolster the standard hogwash line "dumb kennedy kid playing with danger and dies, he was too cocky" or something to that effect. I'd like the source material for the article posted. I'd like the source for "riday's flight, he told acquaintances with exhilaration..." comment, because I have Blow's words, you have the W. Posts. I don't see why Blow would not have mentioned that episode."

My point exactly, if Blow had said such a thing before 2002 why isn’t there any record of it? And if Kennedy really told him this why didn’t he say anything earlier. I don't know why you think this helps you.

"P.S - I also learned apparently that John was never seen flying his new Saratoga without a CFI. Perhaps it should be looked into."

Citation? According to the NTSB he had flown it alone 3 hours the last time being May 28, 1999

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As for Bush being at Bohemian Grove let's say he WAS there,even though the evidence that he was is weak, hanging out with Danny Glover, Cliff the mailman, Colin Powell and Kissinger July 17 - 27; how would that implicate him in the JFK Jr. crash?

Here's a transcript of the Adam Budd call to the Federal Aviation Administration's Bridgeport (Conn.) Automated Flight Service Station on Friday July 16,1999 at 10:05 p.m. obviously it was insufficient to trigger a search.

ATCS (air traffic control specialist): Good evening, Bridgeport Flight Service.

Caller: Hi, I was wondering if you could track an airplane for me. Would you know about Teterboro or Westchester. There's two tail numbers.

ATCS: OK, now, what's this all about now. Who are you?

Caller: This is, that's to go en route from Martha's Vineyard Airport.

ATCS: Well, who are you?

Caller: I'm with airport operations.

ATCS: From where?

Caller: Martha's Vineyard Airport.

ATCS: OK.

Caller: Actually, Kennedy Jr.'s on board. He's, uh, they wanna know, uh, where he is.

ATCS: Well, is he on an IFR flight plan (instrument flight rules) or what?

Caller: They don't know.

ATCS: You got an aircraft number?

Caller: Yeah, there's two of them. It's either 529JK or 9253N.

ATCS: OK, and who's this, who are you calling from?

Caller: This is from Martha's Vineyard Airport, and that's where they're headed.

ATCS: Your name?

Caller: Adam.

ATCS: Adam what?

Caller: Adam Budd.

ATCS: Butt?

Caller: Budd.

ATCS: OK, well are you with operations there?

Caller: Yeah. If it's not too much trouble.

ATCS: Well, we don't give this information out to people over the phone.

Caller: OK, well, if it's too much trouble, it's...

ATCS: Okey-doke.

Caller: I'll just have 'em wait.

ATCS: What?

Caller: All right, it's not a big deal.

ATCS: All right.

Caller: Take it easy.

http://archive.capecodonline.com/special/k...fk21faaside.htm

Edited by Len Colby
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Guest Stephen Turner
The Telegraph's reporter quotes JFK, Jr.'s George magazine as citing a White House source commenting on the departure of Evans-Pritchard: "That's another British invasion we're glad is over." This "British invasion," like the last, burned Washington but in a different way than did General Ross in 1814.

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/archive/gover...rd-1-04-98.html

Damn, I just knew the Brits would be to blame. :lol:

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During his time in Washington, his stories often attracted the ire of the Clinton administration, and on Evans-Pritchard's departure from Washington in 1997 a White House aide was quoted in George saying "That's another British invasion we're glad is over. The guy was nothing but a pain in the ass". The pain was felt most acutely in the Foster case, in which Evans-Pritchard was almost as much a player as he was a reporter[citation needed]. His efforts in ferreting out the witness, Patrick Knowlton, whose last name had been spelled "Nolton" in the Park Police report on Foster's death, resulted eventually in a lawsuit by Knowlton against the FBI and the inclusion of Knowlton's lawyer's letter as an appendix to Kenneth Starr's report on Foster's death. [4] In his book, Evans-Pritchard responded vigorously to White House charges against him [5].

The witches of Whitewater

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/witches.htm

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DON WROTE;
Len can ridicule Tom Flocco and other internet web sites that tackled this story, but the fact is no establishment press organ did, or probably ever will report anything but official statements on the JFK, Jr. crash. Thus, those internet sources are all we have.

The reasoning here is a bit circular, the lack of solid evidence of foul play is considered evidence of foul play. Flocco is a crack pot who claimed Barbara Oslen was arrested on the non-existent Polish-Austrian border, bearing a Vatican passport and counterfeit securities in the extinct Italian Lira. As per the John-John crash, he claims the Bushs (Pappa Doc and Jr.), the Clintons (Bill and Hillary) and "Mike" Harari (a retired Mossad agent) were spotted personally tampering with his plane.

Not knowing Tom Flocco, I almost had a heart attack when he said Barbara Olsen was found alive. And then, of course, I realized it was a hoax. That's why I can't believe the report on John Jr that's on his website.

Kathy C

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From the August 02, 1999 issue of People (on newsstands July 25)

On a business trip to Toronto five days before his death, John F. Kennedy Jr. was hobbling around on a left ankle broken in a recent paragliding accident. His crutches scarcely slowed him down. Keith Stein, 35, the Toronto businessman who had helped broker a meeting with a potential investor in Kennedy's George magazine, marveled at his guest's energy and fascination with the people and things around him…When it was time to leave, Kennedy, who had flown in on his private plane from Martha's Vineyard, Mass., with a flight instructor, talked about his love of flying. He lamented that on the trip back to New York he wouldn't have a chance to fly at night, which he especially enjoyed because of the navigation challenges.

[…]

It is not entirely clear how Carolyn felt about her husband's piloting. According to some reports, she had been known to drive between New York and Massachusetts rather than fly with him. Jackie biographer C. David Heymann says John told him in the week before the crash, "Nobody likes flying with me, including my wife.... I'm no Charles Lindbergh." Last year he told USA Today, "The only person I've been able to get to go up with me—who looks forward to it as much as I do—is my wife."

[…]

At 10:05, Budd, 21, phoned the Federal Aviation Administration in Bridgeport, Conn., and asked if the plane could be traced, but no action was taken. (The FAA later said the caller hadn't made it clear that the plane was overdue and released a transcript that seemed to confirm that.)

http://www.people.com/people/archive/artic...0128852,00.html

Edited by Len Colby
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JFK, Jr. through his George magazine was supporting then President Bill Clinton in his on going battle with the British. Evans Ambrose Pritchard was the British poison pen that had helped to popularize every Clinton scandal from Whitewater to Paul Jones on to Monica Lewinsky. I believe Junior ran a piece on Pritchard in his George magazine titled "Cheerio old Chump".

I remember reading Pritchard on Clinton. I take it from what you say that nothing this "poison pen" wrote was found to be false, JFK Jr. and others simply wanted Pritchard to go back to England and cease his truth mongering about that human scum from Arkansas.

The last thing by Pritchard that I remember reading was his lament that he had tried to warn everyone about Clinton but it didn't do any good. At least he tried. And I have less respect now for JFK Jr.

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Guest Tom Scully

Above is a persuasive presentation for the dismissal of the idea that there would be an improvement in proficiency over time, but I still wonder, especially because of dramatic contrasts in procedure, like in this example. If it was about "respect for the surviving families," how many families are we talking about, in the ocean crash of Flt. 800, vs. the ocean crash of the flight piloted by JFK, Jr.?

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/09/nyregion...ml?pagewanted=1

Consoled or Confounded, Flight 800 Families View the Jet

By RACHEL L. SWARNS

Published: February 9, 1997

SMITHTOWN, L.I., Feb. 8— Nearly 160 relatives of the passengers killed in the crash of T.W.A Flight 800 stepped inside three cavernous hangars today to see, for the first time, the mangled wreckage of the Boeing 747 that exploded over the Atlantic Ocean off Long Island last July.

One by one, they walked past the twisted remains of the plane, past the charred metal skin, past the crumpled bits of the engine and past the metal toilet bowl that was literally blown inside out by the blast. But it was when they saw the reconstructed cabin that some families began to weep. There, propped on a carpet of black felt, were the rows and rows of seats -- some crumpled, some melted, some perfectly intact -- where the passengers sat before the plane plunged into the sea.

In some places, the seat backs had vanished. In others, the armrests had been ripped in half.

''The numbers of each seat were still on the armrests and I just pictured him sitting there,'' said Stephanie Maranto, 30, who lost her 29-year-old brother, James Hurd.

''You look at those seats, all charred and broken, and you know that those seats were full of life at one time, full of people, children, husbands and wives,'' she said. ''It was a very eerie feeling.''

It was the first time that such a large group of families had visited the football-field-size hangars in Calverton, L.I., where investigators have reassembled the 170-ton jumbo jet from the hunks of metal dredged from the ocean floor. Two smaller groups toured the complex in December and January. This time, dozens of relatives flew in from as far as France, hoping to assess the pace of the investigation and to come to terms with their grief. ..

Photo: Joe Lychner and Stephanie Maranto, who lost relatives in the crash of T.W.A. Flight 800, after seeing the reconstructed Boeing 747 yesterday. (Steve Berman for The New York Times)

The description below is probably deceptive, because the article above indicates descriptions of the reconstruction witnessed by a member of the press, ten months before the press was allowed to take and to publish actual photos. The JFK, Jr. crash was more than ten years ago...where are the photos of the wreckage, and where is the wreckage?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...ved=0CFwQ9QEwCg

wreckage of TWA Flight 800 viewed by media for 1st time

wreckage-of-TWA-Flight-800-viewed-by-media-for-1st-time.jpg

wreckage of TWA Flight 800 viewed by media for 1st time

NYP97111904 -19 NOVEMBER 1997- NEW YORK,NEW YORK, USA: FBI director James Kallstrom stands infront of part of the reconstructed TWA Flight 800 which crash in July 1996. It was shown to the press for the first time at a hanger in Calverton, Long Island , November 19th , a day after the FBI ended its 16 month criminal probe into what caused the explosion of Flight 800 after its takeoff from JFK airport. UPI ep/Monika Graff

vs -

Nothing to see here....move along, folks!
http://www.uscg.mil/history/stations/airsta_capecod.asp

airstacapecod_jfkjr_300.jpg

Original photo caption: "The wooden wall that conceals the wreckage of John F. Kennedy's Piper Saratoga airplane [in] Air Station Cape Cod's hangar. John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn and her sister Lauren Bessette . . . died when Kennedy's [aircraft] crashed into the sea July 17."; photo is dated 22 July 1999; photo number 990722-I-5644M-501 (FR); photo by PA1 Pete Milnes, USCG.

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JFK, Jr. through his George magazine was supporting then President Bill Clinton in his on going battle with the British. Evans Ambrose Pritchard was the British poison pen that had helped to popularize every Clinton scandal from Whitewater to Paul Jones on to Monica Lewinsky. I believe Junior ran a piece on Pritchard in his George magazine titled "Cheerio old Chump".

I remember reading Pritchard on Clinton. I take it from what you say that nothing this "poison pen" wrote was found to be false, JFK Jr. and others simply wanted Pritchard to go back to England and cease his truth mongering about that human scum from Arkansas.

The last thing by Pritchard that I remember reading was his lament that he had tried to warn everyone about Clinton but it didn't do any good. At least he tried. And I have less respect now for JFK Jr.

So you approve of foreign attacks against our Presidents and our constitutional form of government? Especially coming from the same crowd that murdered JFK? Hmmm...

Interesting viewpoint you express. Do you at least support the American Revolution or was that a mistake too? :lol:

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The problem is he didn't try warning about that which mattered wost : the drugs for cash for weapons with Arkansas as a focal point, the seemingly inevitable UN ratification veto by the US regarding Cuban sanctions and a maintenance of the Cuba travel rules, that not just US citizens were/are affected by, but also reacting at the time of the regular NAM conference by dropping the regulations and the natural exchange of persons throughout the FREE world was therefore a pent up flood, while in reality few left, and the gates were then again closed. I don't know if the flow of medicine and produce was allowed, put you no longer had to take the risk of hoping to touch US soil before being caught by whatever US persons responsible for that sort of thing. (actually that brings to mind Bosch's circumstances during this time)

ADD : The prudishness has instead the focus. It's just another in a series of rooms of smoke and mirrors being constructed. What if the focus had instead been on these matters? Clinton perhaps would have taken a different tack. Perhaps not, but I do think Clinton is remembered with an imposed filter.

Edited by John Dolva
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President Clinton's real crime was that his enemies never trusted him. They feared that in times of crisis he might just do what "FDR" did to them during the 1930's. That Clinton would act to protect the nation and not the "slime mold" that make up the current bankrupt financial system. Namely the City of London and their off shoot Wall Street.

Golden ADA

Gore's tenure as Vice President was marked by two actions, both emblematic of his loyalty to an anti-American foreign oligarchy. First, he teamed up with Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.) in August and September of 1998, to attempt a coup d'état against President Bill Clinton. While the ostensible basis for the effort to convince President Clinton to resign from office was the Monica Lewinsky scandal, the real reason for the ambush was that the Anglo-Dutch financial circles who pull Gore's chain feared that Clinton, and his Treasury Secretary Bob Rubin, were about to implement a "new global financial architecture," in the face of a global financial meltdown that started in Asia in 1997, and had spread, by August 1998, to Russia, with Moscow's default on its short-term, high-interest government bonds (GKOs).

Since January 1997, even before the outbreak of the Asia crisis, Lyndon LaRouche had launched a campaign to get President Clinton to convene a New Bretton Woods conference, to put the global financial system through an orderly bankruptcy reorganization and restore Franklin Roosevelt's 1944 Bretton Woods system of fixed exchange rates.

Gore demonstrated where he stood on the issue on Aug. 17, 1998, when—behind President Clinton's back—he convened a White House meeting with a veritable "Who's Who" of Wall Street speculators, many of whom had already ponied up big bucks to Friends of Albert Gore, Jr., Inc. The speculators schemed with Gore to bail out the international financiers, who stood to lose their shirts in the looming Russian default (the Russians had just frozen payments on the GKOs); they included George Soros, John Tisch, Steven Rattner, Lionel Pincus, Maurice Greenberg, Orin Kraemer, and David Shaw.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.lar...izn4MP-6uoYpUsA

Bill Clinton gave a speech at the CFR on September 14, 1998. He called for a New Financial Architecture, in the face of the collapse of Asia and the hedge fund LTCM. Now that took some courage to make this announcement, right in front of all these nasty bankers who's system he was threatening to shut down.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9349/global_economy.html

But it was in the back drop of this ongoing politcal fight between President Clinton and the British, that the JFK Jr., plane crash took place.

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