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According to Keith Harmon Snow, Clinton committed war crimes when his administration made sure that "Habyarimana's private Falcon 50 jet was shot down near Kigali International Airport" and also, the destruction of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory, not to mention his 'cozyness' with Bush Sr which is suspect and his connections to the diamond trade. I'd better take my JFK discussions to another topic, sorry for jumping off here lol. Len Colby thanks for the response to my thoughts, it'll take some time but i'll get back to you.

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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Above is a persuasive presentation for the dismissal of the idea that there would be an improvement in proficiency over time, but I still wonder, especially because of dramatic contrasts in procedure, like in this example. If it was about "respect for the surviving families," how many families are we talking about, in the ocean crash of Flt. 800, vs. the ocean crash of the flight piloted by JFK, Jr.?
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/09/nyregion...ml?pagewanted=1

Consoled or Confounded, Flight 800 Families View the Jet

By RACHEL L. SWARNS

Published: February 9, 1997

SMITHTOWN, L.I., Feb. 8— Nearly 160 relatives of the passengers killed in the crash of T.W.A Flight 800 stepped inside three cavernous hangars today to see, for the first time, the mangled wreckage of the Boeing 747 that exploded over the Atlantic Ocean off Long Island last July.

One by one, they walked past the twisted remains of the plane, past the charred metal skin, past the crumpled bits of the engine and past the metal toilet bowl that was literally blown inside out by the blast. But it was when they saw the reconstructed cabin that some families began to weep. There, propped on a carpet of black felt, were the rows and rows of seats -- some crumpled, some melted, some perfectly intact -- where the passengers sat before the plane plunged into the sea.

In some places, the seat backs had vanished. In others, the armrests had been ripped in half.

''The numbers of each seat were still on the armrests and I just pictured him sitting there,'' said Stephanie Maranto, 30, who lost her 29-year-old brother, James Hurd.

''You look at those seats, all charred and broken, and you know that those seats were full of life at one time, full of people, children, husbands and wives,'' she said. ''It was a very eerie feeling.''

It was the first time that such a large group of families had visited the football-field-size hangars in Calverton, L.I., where investigators have reassembled the 170-ton jumbo jet from the hunks of metal dredged from the ocean floor. Two smaller groups toured the complex in December and January. This time, dozens of relatives flew in from as far as France, hoping to assess the pace of the investigation and to come to terms with their grief. ..

Photo: Joe Lychner and Stephanie Maranto, who lost relatives in the crash of T.W.A. Flight 800, after seeing the reconstructed Boeing 747 yesterday. (Steve Berman for The New York Times)

The description below is probably deceptive, because the article above indicates descriptions of the reconstruction witnessed by a member of the press, ten months before the press was allowed to take and to publish actual photos. The JFK, Jr. crash was more than ten years ago...where are the photos of the wreckage, and where is the wreckage?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...ved=0CFwQ9QEwCg

wreckage of TWA Flight 800 viewed by media for 1st time

wreckage of TWA Flight 800 viewed by media for 1st time

NYP97111904 -19 NOVEMBER 1997- NEW YORK,NEW YORK, USA: FBI director James Kallstrom stands infront of part of the reconstructed TWA Flight 800 which crash in July 1996. It was shown to the press for the first time at a hanger in Calverton, Long Island , November 19th , a day after the FBI ended its 16 month criminal probe into what caused the explosion of Flight 800 after its takeoff from JFK airport. UPI ep/Monika Graff

vs -

Nothing to see here....move along, folks!
http://www.uscg.mil/history/stations/airsta_capecod.asp

Original photo caption: "The wooden wall that conceals the wreckage of John F. Kennedy's Piper Saratoga airplane [in] Air Station Cape Cod's hangar. John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn and her sister Lauren Bessette . . . died when Kennedy's [aircraft] crashed into the sea July 17."; photo is dated 22 July 1999; photo number 990722-I-5644M-501 (FR); photo by PA1 Pete Milnes, USCG.

From the NTSB report:

“On August 5, 1999, the main airplane wreckage was released to a representative of the accident pilot's insurance company. On November 17, 1999, the remainder of the retained parts were released and shipped to the insurance company's storage facility.”

As with automobile accidents where the car is declared a total loss this is SOP, since they paid the claimant the wreckage becomes their property so they can sell it for parts/scrap.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli...mp;aqi=&oq=

Gee Tom do you really fail to see some obvious differences between the crashes?

TWA 800 - 230 killed viewing by relatives only possible via an organized event

JFK Jr. - 3 killed, Kennedy family notorious for protecting its privacy

TWA 800 – Broke up midair, cause of explosion only determined after lengthy investigation, plane reconstructed to study possibility it was damaged by an external explosion and discover the source of the explosion.

JFK Jr. - Quickly determined the plane hit the water intact and that the engines were working. Soon became obvious pilot error was to blame. Thus reconstruction of the wreckage would have been pointless.

TWA 800 – Widespread speculation of the causes

JFK Jr. - A few CT’s aside widespread acceptance that the plane crashed due to pilot error. Thus there was little public interest in seeing the wreckage

The reconstruction of TWA 800 was an exceptional event, how many other aviation crashes can you point to where this was done? AFAIK there weren’t any.

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Junior interviews Richard M. Scaife one of the money bags financing the "Get Clinton" operation.

http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/JFK.html

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Junior interviews Richard M. Scaife one of the money bags financing the "Get Clinton" operation.

http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/JFK.html

That was a rather soft interview and almost seemed intended to put the man in as positive a light as possible. If it was representative of Kennedy and George's journalism neither were a threat to anybody (except perhaps the investors).

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"Pilot error" is a theory at best lol. He also had an auto-pilot that did work, so you could say that spatial d. could have been totally avoided no? I was curious about that.

I looked at the FAA’s Airmen database and though the were 11 several Copelands none had the initials B.A., on the other hand a couple dozen pilots most of whom were CFIs or were flying in the area that night or had flown the Vineyard around that time were interviewed by or wrote articles by the media. All of them though it quite possible that JFK Jr. got disoriented flying at night over water on a hazy night. I haven’t seen any comments from pilots saying something like, “I can’t understand how he could have lost control over his aircraft” let alone anything like “"Pilot error" is a theory at best lol. He also had an auto-pilot that did work, so you could say that spatial d. could have been totally avoided no?” As spelled out earlier the autopilot could not adjust altitude so he was hand flying at that point. His going 300 below regulation altitude for over a minute seems to indicate a problem. Also he liked flying a specific route and the plane’s autopilot seemingly was only capable of flying in a straight line to a designated point.

If any of the 600,000 plus licensed pilots in the US or (presumably) millions in the world had any doubts about the crash none (or so it seems) said anything publicly. One thing that all CT accounts have in common is that they can’t site a single pilot between them

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Junior interviews Richard M. Scaife one of the money bags financing the "Get Clinton" operation.

http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/JFK.html

That was a rather soft interview and almost seemed intended to put the man in as positive a light as possible. If it was representative of Kennedy and George's journalism neither were a threat to anybody (except perhaps the investors).

Bill Clinton posed the threat not Junior. The crash forced Clinton to fish his young friend out of the ocean. Another message to President Clinton.

I'm amazed Junior was able to get Richard Scaife to agree to an interview.

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Junior interviews Richard M. Scaife one of the money bags financing the "Get Clinton" operation.

http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/JFK.html

That was a rather soft interview and almost seemed intended to put the man in as positive a light as possible. If it was representative of Kennedy and George's journalism neither were a threat to anybody (except perhaps the investors).

Bill Clinton posed the threat not Junior. The crash forced Clinton to fish his young friend out of the ocean. Another message to President Clinton.

BS - Centrist Clinton was little threat to anyone other that a small number of far right kooks, there is no evidence Clinton and Kennedy were close. The latter was very easy on Scaife, one of the former's chief tormentors.

I'm amazed Junior was able to get Richard Scaife to agree to an interview.

Considering how soft the interview was you shouldn't.

Previously I wrote:

"a couple dozen pilots most of whom were CFIs or were flying in the area that night or had flown the Vineyard around that time were interviewed by or wrote articles by the media. All of them though it quite possible that JFK Jr. got disoriented flying at night over water on a hazy night." Here are two more pilots who showed no doubt that Kennedy could simply have lost control over the plane. The former is a “airline captain for a major carrier” and flight instructor the latter “Managing Director of GKMG Consulting Services, one of the largest aviation consulting firms in the country,…the former editor and publisher of Aviation Daily and was assistant administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration.”

http://www.airlinesafety.com/editorials/JFKJrCrash.htm

http://edition.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/edmund.pinto.html

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Colby, interesting point, however even still, S.D is a likely possibility. There are other ways that plane could have went down. Surely, no one is going to think anything "conspiratorial" and have it published publicly (lol...) He did go a few 100ft below but even the NTSB Report does not mention this (to my knowledge) was an issue at all and I remember hearing a radio show with Michael Herzog that the maneuver Jr actually did was a regulation and typical maneuver before climbing to a higher altitude. He seemed to have went lower to make the final radio call ("Burgun/FAA's call) then climbed to a higher altitude only to crash at approx. 9:40/42. My point? While S.D could be the cause, I think that there are certain clues throughout that makes the entire affair stink.

Lets take a look at Merena for a moment. Merena (for about 5-6 months) never claimed John 'wanted to do it alone' yet...some 5-6 months after the crash, he pops up and says it, to which his own Lawyer gets involved? That seems just odd to me...The only reason I use that as an example is because it is one of the powerful "proofs" or pieces of evidence offered to show John did not have a CFI onboard that night. My claim is that given Jr's physical situation (his leg, to which one witness said he was hobbling around his plane that night, I believe it was K. Bailey) his Instruments Exam, the possibility of hazing up worse than it was all seems (to me) to suggest that there is no reason why he would not have one. I have studied that it is very difficult to pilot a plane on the ground with a leg condition such as Jr's that night, that reason alone would move me in such a direction of him having a CFI with him. Jr's death could possibly and very well be connected to 9/11 in some way, possibly I say...

According to Hankey as well, Jr was speaking with a health foods guru A. True Ott. I think this would definitely have to be substantiated or corroborated but apparently and according to Ott, Jr was gathering evidence against GHWB for his participation in the murder of his father. This article was/is published on Rense.com. and think it deserves further investigation.

George Magazine/JFK Jr wasn't a threat lol...? Well I am not totally sure about that. The man includes Oliver Stone speaking against (essentially) the W.C (mind you this is JFK's son magazine lol) and also George interviews the mother of the alleged assassin of Rabin and the basic implication of that article is/was that her son was controlled by the Mossad and that there was no way her son could have done what her son did without the Mossad's participation in preparations . I find it difficult to believe that such articles are not a threat in today's (and yesterday's) Private Intelligence Services-run world.

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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Colby, interesting point, however even still, S.D is a likely possibility. There are other ways that plane could have went down. Surely, no one is going to think anything "conspiratorial" and have it published publicly (lol...)

Why not? Pro CT stuff gets published all the time and the Web gives otherwise shut out people a forum.

He did go a few 100ft below but even the NTSB Report does not mention this (to my knowledge) was an issue at all

You right they don’t discuss it, I cited it to counter your false claim he should have been autopilot and previously in response to the claim he was a crack pilot. I got that info from the Hankey video and once again he was making stuff up:

VFR Regulations Summary

[...]

“Minimum Altitudes

Over a heavily populated area, the legal minimum altitude 1000 feet above the highest

obstacle within a 2000-foot radius.

Over open water or sparsely populated areas, there is no minimum altitude, although a

pilot must remain at least 500 feet from any person, vehicle, or structure.

Everywhere else, and that means lightly populated areas, the minimum altitude is 500

feet above the surface.

You may fly below these minimum altitudes when taking off and landing.”

http://www.faa-ground-school.com/library/VFR-regulations.pdf

Sec. 135.203 VFR: Minimum altitudes.

Except when necessary for takeoff and landing, no person may operate under VFR--

(a) An airplane--

[…]

(2) At night, at an altitude less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown or, in designated mountainous terrain, less than 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown;

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance...33;OpenDocument

and I remember hearing a radio show with Michael Herzog that the maneuver Jr actually did was a regulation and typical maneuver before climbing to a higher altitude. He seemed to have went lower to make the final radio call ("Burgun/FAA's call) then climbed to a higher altitude only to crash at approx. 9:40/42.

There would be no reason to go to lower altitude to make a radio call, range actually improves the higher up you are and since the plane was rated up to 20,000 obviously the radio would be powerful enough to operate at 2500 feet especially only a few miles from the airport. The airport said he never radioed themand the NTSB there no radio calls fromhim on the control tower tape. Remeber that the tower manager said the sky was clear. If he was "in on it" why would he contradict the "official story".

Who is Michael Herzog? Is he a pilot?

My point? While S.D could be the cause, I think that there are certain clues throughout that makes the entire affair stink.

Lets take a look at Merena right quick. Merena (for about 5-6 months) never claimed John 'wanted to do it alone' yet...some 5-6 months after the crash, he pops up and says it, to which his own Lawyer gets involved? That seems just odd to me...The only reason I use that as an example is because it is one of the powerful "proofs" or pieces of evidence offered to show John did not have a CFI onboard that night.

He didn’t just “pop up” an say it, this was during an NTSB interview, he seems not to have mentioned it earlier but by the time of his 1st contact the media was already reporting there was no CFI aboard. There is other compelling evidence there was no CFI aboard as has been discussed previously.

My claim is that given Jr's physical situation (his leg, to which one witness said he was hobbling around his plane that night, I believe it was K. Bailey) his Instruments Exam, the possibility of hazing up worse than it was all seems (to me) to suggest that there is no reason why he would not have one. I have studied that it is very difficult to pilot a plane on the ground with a leg condition such as Jr's that night, that reason alone would move me in such a direction of him having a CFI with him.

Everyone agrees he should have had another pilot with him so this is begging the question. Playing touch football on a ski slope without poles is reckless and his cousin Michael was warned not to do so by the ski patrol and died as result of not heeding such advice. Sleeping with whores and paying for them with your credit card is stupid especially if you are married and Governor of NY but Spitzer did so and so is negotiating a Senate seat if you suspect your phone/office is being tapped. Smart people are stupidly reckless all the time.

In his defense it should be pointed out the flight was supposed to have occurred during the daytime but his sister-in-law was late getting out of work and traffic was exceptionally bad. At that point he might have found himself trapped into flying. I suspect he might have felt the need to prove himself. By the time his father was his age he was a decorated war hero, Senator, author of 2 books (one soon to win a Pulitzer), was soon to become one of the leading candidates for VP, and was happily (if not faithfully) married to one of the classiest women ever. He on the other hand hadn’t accomplished much, never spending more than a few years doing anything, was the publisher of a money loosing magazine sustained by little more than his celebrity status and his failing marriage was fodder for the tabloids.

Jr's death could possibly and very well be connected to 9/11 in some way, possibly I say...

That’s rather bizarre he died over 2 years beforehand.

According to Hankey as well, Jr was speaking with a health foods guru A. True Ott. I think this would definitely have to be substantiated or corroborated but apparently and according to Ott, Jr was gathering evidence against GHWB for his participation in the murder of his father. This article was/is published on Rense.com. and think it deserves further investigation
.

Speaking of stories that reek of BS. This is unsubstantiated double hearsay. Ott supposedly claimed to have some secret files that he gave John-John. How an eccentric ex-communicated Moron conspiracy nut living in a small town in UT could have gotten a hold of such documents has AFAIK never been explained nor why even 10 plus years later he failed to hand them over to anybody else. Hankey made numerous claims up “of whole cloth” and is not a reliable source.

George Magazine/JFK Jr wasn't a threat lol...? Well I am not totally sure about that. The man includes Oliver Stone speaking against (essentially) the W.C (mind you this is JFK's son magazine lol)

One article in 4 years about the assassination it’s not like he was pursuing the issue. Have you actually read the article? It doesn’t seem to be online.

and also George interviews the mother of the alleged assassin of Rabin and the basic implication of that article is/was that her son was controlled by the Mossad and that there was no way her son could have done what her son did without the Mossad's participation in preparations . I find it difficult to believe that such articles are not a threat in today's (and yesterday's) Private Intelligence Services-run world.

Actually she said it was the Shin Bet. I read that a while ago, it was nothing more than a mom claiming her son was innocent she offered no evidence just inconclusive undocumented claims that he was set up. And it like the Stone article it was published long before the crash. And Kennedy was rather dismissive of it he described it as "interpretative and clearly the view of an anguished mother and a staunch right-winger. '' not ''an objective examination of the events surrounding the assassination.''

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/jfk_jr_&_rabin.htm

http://www.newsmodo.com/1997/04/02/rabin%2....jsp?id=3961959

http://64.233.163.132/search?q=cache:H2fdK...lient=firefox-a

It was hardly controversial Google news only turned up about 20 articles that mentioned it mostly in passing, most if not all on back pages. The majority ones that were about it were about Rabin’s widow denouncing it.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=...mp;as_scoring=a

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According to Hankey as well, Jr was speaking with a health foods guru A. True Ott. I think this would definitely have to be substantiated or corroborated but apparently and according to Ott, Jr was gathering evidence against GHWB for his participation in the murder of his father. This article was/is published on Rense.com. and think it deserves further investigation
.
Speaking of stories that reek of BS. This is unsubstantiated double hearsay. Ott supposedly claimed to have some secret files that he gave John-John. How an eccentric ex-communicated Moron conspiracy nut living in a small town in UT could have gotten a hold of such documents has AFAIK never been explained nor why even 10 plus years later he failed to hand them over to anybody else. Hankey made numerous claims up “of whole cloth” and is not a reliable source.
George Magazine/JFK Jr wasn't a threat lol...? Well I am not totally sure about that. The man includes Oliver Stone speaking against (essentially) the W.C (mind you this is JFK's son magazine lol
One article in 4 years about the assassination it’s not like he was pursuing the issue. Have you actually read the article? It doesn’t seem to be online.

and also George interviews the mother of the alleged assassin of Rabin and the basic implication of that article is/was that her son was controlled by the Mossad and that there was no way her son could have done what her son did without the Mossad's participation in preparations . I find it difficult to believe that such articles are not a threat in today's (and yesterday's) Private Intelligence Services-run world.

Actually she said it was the Shin Bet. I read that a while ago, it was nothing more than a mom claiming her son was innocent she offered no evidence just inconclusive undocumented claims that he was set up. And it like the Stone article it was published long before the crash. And Kennedy was rather dismissive of it he described it as "interpretative and clearly the view of an anguished mother and a staunch right-winger. '' not ''an objective examination of the events surrounding the assassination.''

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/jfk_jr_&_rabin.htm

http://www.newsmodo.com/1997/04/02/rabin%2....jsp?id=3961959

http://64.233.163.132/search?q=cache:H2fdK...lient=firefox-a

It was hardly controversial Google news only turned up about 20 articles that mentioned it mostly in passing, most if not all on back pages. The majority ones that were about it were about Rabin’s widow denouncing it.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=...mp;as_scoring=a

I just wanted to say I read the article on Rense.com. It was compelling. The name of the file Kennedy Jr was allegedly given was "The Gemstone." I found a "Gemstone" online and much of it was crap. Especially the garbage it says about Ted Kennedy.

Johnny Roselli did the headshot on President Kennedy and fled under a manhole cover behind the fence and out through the sewer. Oswald shot John Connally twice from TSBD. And there were 2 other shooters: Frattiano from Dal-Tex and the other from the south knoll pergola. I don't remember his name. Basically the Mob did it. That's what The Gemstone was about. The article on Rense.com said John Jr read info about George HW Bush killing his father and told Ott that Bush would soon be indicted for murder. And then John Jr was killed shortly thereafter. I didn't read anything on Bush in "The Gemstone." FWIW.

Kathy C

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While someone employed by the Mob may have pulled a trigger in DP, I personally doubt that any of the known higher-ups (including Nicoletti and his driver Files) was a shooter. For this job, one wanted the cut-outs of the cut-outs, the most anonymous pros trustworthy. Even LHO (or "LHO") wasn't enough of a cut-out, as all our efforts here attest. (He may have been approved as patsy because of his cross-associations.)

How much more invisible and disposable the escaping shooters needed to be, in comparison. Plus, this wasn't work for fat cats that squatted in restaurants and social clubs, but once a year got drunk during deer season and blasted the brush in the woods north of Chicago. How controllable were they? What if one of them needed to hit his hip flask before taking aim?

I understand that Kathy is only summarizing the article. Rense is a hang-out, mixing truth and disinfo. Anti-semitism plus UFOs equals what, exactly?

Still, the question nags. Did the LHO placed under arrest pull a trigger? Again, I go back to that Mona Lisa smirk of his, and the times it disappeared and reappeared at crucial moments under custody. I wonder if he really thought his intel credentials were going to get him off? I can't imagine he was dumb enough to hold a rifle that day, even under orders. And it seems like someone smart enough not to do the latter would be just dumb enough to hope for an exoneration - it would be the only card he had to play. When he pleaded for someone to come forward and represent him, I don't believe he meant only legally and formally.

Edited by David Andrews
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Guest Tom Scully
....I just wanted to say I read the article on Rense.com. It was compelling. The name of the file Kennedy Jr was allegedly given was "The Gemstone." I found a "Gemstone" online and much of it was crap. Especially the garbage it says about Ted Kennedy.

Johnny Roselli did the headshot on President Kennedy and fled under a manhole cover behind the fence and out through the sewer. Oswald shot John Connally twice from TSBD. And there were 2 other shooters: Frattiano from Dal-Tex and the other from the south knoll pergola. I don't remember his name. Basically the Mob did it. That's what The Gemstone was about. The article on Rense.com said John Jr read info about George HW Bush killing his father and told Ott that Bush would soon be indicted for murder. And then John Jr was killed shortly thereafter. I didn't read anything on Bush in "The Gemstone." FWIW.

Kathy C

Although it seems absurd that Roselli, 58 years old at the time, would be shooting and then ducking down a sewer, there seems to be plenty to consider in the core, Gemstone assertion, about Onassis's involvement. I posted a recent article on the subject by actor and RFK friend, Robert Vaughn.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=183807

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I think we have to be very careful of the Gemstone files. I also believe that the phrase "the best place to hide information, is in disinformation" can go both ways. While the majority of the files are nonsense, perhaps a few gems can be pulled from its contents, that is...if we have the entire file wholly intact and not tampered with. I cannot remember where I heard this but I remember hearing that Onassis' son was murdered by the CIA because Onassis had begun his own personal investigation on the JFK Hit and he was warned to stop. Just a bit of food for thought. I am not endorsing such a statement but is (like many elements in the JFK case) possibly worthy of further inquiry.

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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I cannot remember where I heard this but I remember hearing that Onassis' son was murdered by the CIA because Onassis had begun his own personal investigation on the JFK Hit and he was warned to stop. Just a bit of food for thought. I am not endorsing such a statement but is (like many elements in the JFK case) possibly worthy of further inquiry.

You are like me in ways. I'm always reading something or watching or talking to someone about JFK and then I can't remember where I heard or read something specific.

The Gemstone File I read was all about Onassis. He wasn't investigating the assassination. He financed it. So there's the difference.

Kathy C

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