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Lamson, White, Thompson, Hagerman, Colby, Fetzer.


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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

I AGREE. I research and post research. Then the lone nutters attack endlessly. It is shameful.

Jack

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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

concerning the Zapruder film and issues that surround it, what your seeing Justin is simple minded, lone nut-xxxxx reaction to NEW ideas. Quite frankly, all the nutter-trolls EVER do is overreact to new ideas... it is NOT in their vested interests to entertain new ideas, thus disagreeing with the 1964 Warren Commission Report. They can't intelligently dispute with any degree of certainty, the new ideas, they're simply left with attacking the presenter of the new messenge(s).

Honestly most CTer's look at possible Zapruder film alteration as just another WCR fabrication-lie brick in the road...

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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

You have it backards. You are witnessing the complete thrashing of the faulty alterationist position. What more could be new or a learning experience than that?

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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

concerning the Zapruder film and issues that surround it, what your seeing Justin is simple minded, lone nut-xxxxx reaction to NEW ideas. Quite frankly, all the nutter-trolls EVER do is overreact to new ideas... it is NOT in their vested interests to entertain new ideas, thus disagreeing with the 1964 Warren Commission Report. They can't intelligently dispute with any degree of certainty, the new ideas, they're simply left with attacking the presenter of the new messenge(s).

Honestly most CTer's look at possible Zapruder film alteration as just another WCR fabrication-lie brick in the road...

What NEW ideas David?

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Justin,

There are lots of threads that don't interest me. I either don't look at them at all or only skim them.Can you point to threads you think we've "ruined"?

PS I thought it was hilarious that you said Jack was one of the people ruining this forum and he said he agreed! :ice^_^:rolleyes::lol::D

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If you dont like it dont read it

Ruining the forum is a bit of a stretch

If we cant debate the facts of what we believe in then what do you suggest we do?

Ignore all posts that attack your thoughts and theories?

I cant do that, but at the same time I can assure you I am not looking to debate, its a fact of life on all forums Justin, not just this forum

Dean

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And any others continually involved in the ONGOING and NEVER ENDING debate. You are ruining the forum. The spirit of debate and forwarding of new ideas from that debate is important but is that what is going on here? I fully understand that it is up to me to avoid the threads of these "debates" that I do not care for but they just keep cropping up and spreading. Like Cancer. I can not be the only person who feels this way. Not everyone on the forum is a "researcher". Although I have read many, many books about the conspiracy that killed JFK, I (and others like me I suspect) have much to learn still. I rely on the forum for new information and ideas about the case. I think that what is happening with the film/photography crowd is no longer moving towards new ideas and learning, if it ever was.

Justin...I do not understand why you lump Fetzer and me in with the likes of obstructionists like

(ugh) Colby, Lamson, and Thompson. Fetzer and I present RESEARCH and Hagerman cheers us

on with astute support. THE OBSTRUCTIONISTS NEVER PRESENT RESEARCH but just try to pick

fights with those who do. When the mindless name calling starts we are obligated to defend ourselves,

taking away valuable time for research and discussion.

Thanks, however, for showing that the Forum has gained a BAD REPUTATION because of those

obstructionists who create chaos. The Forum would be a fine research site if all of them were banned,

as they were on the JFK RESEARCH site.

Jack

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If you dont like it dont read it

Ruining the forum is a bit of a stretch

If we cant debate the facts of what we believe in then what do you suggest we do?

Ignore all posts that attack your thoughts and theories?

I cant do that, but at the same time I can assure you I am not looking to debate, its a fact of life on all forums Justin, not just this forum

Dean

The "If you don't like it don't read it" tactic has become nearly impossible lately as it has spread far and wide to many threads or you guys just start other threads arguing essentially the same things or find roundabout ways to insult each other. It used to not be "a fact of life" at this Forum. A person has to search far and wide to find threads that are not infected with your guys horse xxxx. Although I replied to Dean's post this reply is not directed to him or any one person but (as I stated originally) to those that continue to engage in endless debate where YOU KNOW YOU HAVE ZERO CHANCE of convincing the other camp. I stand by my original comment. You guys are ruining the Forum.

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If you dont like it dont read it

Ruining the forum is a bit of a stretch

If we cant debate the facts of what we believe in then what do you suggest we do?

Ignore all posts that attack your thoughts and theories?

I cant do that, but at the same time I can assure you I am not looking to debate, its a fact of life on all forums Justin, not just this forum

Dean

The "If you don't like it don't read it" tactic has become nearly impossible lately as it has spread far and wide to many threads or you guys just start other threads arguing essentially the same things or find roundabout ways to insult each other. It used to not be "a fact of life" at this Forum. A person has to search far and wide to find threads that are not infected with your guys horse xxxx. Although I replied to Dean's post this reply is not directed to him or any one person but (as I stated originally) to those that continue to engage in endless debate where YOU KNOW YOU HAVE ZERO CHANCE of convincing the other camp. I stand by my original comment. You guys are ruining the Forum.

I dont see very many members saying that we are ruining the forum

I think debating what I believe in is a must do

Again im not going to sit back and let the LNers and Anti-alterationists push me or my fellow researchers/students around

Dean

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If you dont like it dont read it

Ruining the forum is a bit of a stretch

If we cant debate the facts of what we believe in then what do you suggest we do?

Ignore all posts that attack your thoughts and theories?

I cant do that, but at the same time I can assure you I am not looking to debate, its a fact of life on all forums Justin, not just this forum

Dean

The "If you don't like it don't read it" tactic has become nearly impossible lately as it has spread far and wide to many threads or you guys just start other threads arguing essentially the same things or find roundabout ways to insult each other. It used to not be "a fact of life" at this Forum. A person has to search far and wide to find threads that are not infected with your guys horse xxxx. Although I replied to Dean's post this reply is not directed to him or any one person but (as I stated originally) to those that continue to engage in endless debate where YOU KNOW YOU HAVE ZERO CHANCE of convincing the other camp. I stand by my original comment. You guys are ruining the Forum.

I dont see very many members saying that we are ruining the forum

I think debating what I believe in is a must do

Again im not going to sit back and let the LNers and Anti-alterationists push me or my fellow researchers/students around

Dean

For what it's worth I thought I'd give my own thoughts concerning the forum and my introductory experiences upon joining:

I put off becoming a member of this site for a number of years. I felt the discourse lacked civility and was filled with egotistical and reactionary posts from a wide variety of members and on a personal level I didn't know what my own reactions would be if I was faced with some of the tactics and rudeness that was prevalant.

After finally "plucking up" the courage to request membership it took only 2-3 days for me to be accused of having some sort of sinister agenda. I was told in no uncertain terms that I was "wrong" on various points regarding what amount to "personal beliefs" about the assassination. I was warned off talking about certain topics through personal e-mails. I was insulted and pictures of my wife requested. If I expressed a view that didn't meet a specific individual's paradigm it was met with a hostile reactionary response that was ultimately contradicted through the "accusing" person's own behaviours. I ultimately became everything I abhor because I rose to a lot of this in the wrong way and used the same tactics.

There is a sense of "right and wrong", black and white thinking that most members suffer from (including myself although I do try to challenge my own bundles of thoughts most of the time). There is little acceptance of others alternative perspectives. There is no investigation of a "third" way. It is a "community" of separation, division and deep rooted suspicion. Propositional "truth" or objective truth is mixed together with "interior truthfulness" and has resulted in the type of environment on the forum that the Warren Commission so carefully crafted in 1964 - muddied waters, mixed messages, conflicting theories, and suspected ulterior motives.

Some of the closed-off thinking that exists is, ironically enough, the type of thinking that resulted in the "cold-war" firmly cementing itself into the consciousness of the people on opposing sides of "ideas." Wasn't this something that JFK fought so hard to unravel and was so brutally and barbarically murdered for on 11/22/63?

The way "bundles of thoughts" are expressed and defended on this forum remind me of Gordon Allport's Scale of Prejudice model:

1. Antilocution - Bad mouthing and name calling

2. Avoidance - Refusing participation in the group, ignoring them

3. Discrimination - Using your power to create a disadvantage for an individual

4. Physical Violence - Toward the individual or their property

5. Genocide

As you can see there are only five levels. Individuals on this forum use tactics that have climbed the first three rungs. I've heard that in certain "conferences" over the decades things have gotten so heated on occasion that the fourth level has almost manifested itself within the community. This is madness.

My first couple of posts were a call for the community to come together on the issues that united them in "propositional truth" but it seems that other issues are more important right now and the endless "debate" that has been going on for decades around these issues continues unabated.

I wholeheartedly agree with Justin. There are people that come to this forum to learn more about the assassination - to present their own ideas and let others who perhaps know more concerning certain topics help them develop their ideas into a more rounded "interior understanding" of events.

I am someone who has a medium level understanding of the assassination. I have gone after the testimony as my main area of interest and try to use that testimony to develop my own ideas of what happened.

After spending a month on the forum, I must admit that I feel quite deflated with the "conspiracy" community as a whole and have moments where I wish I didn't join.

I hope everyone understands that my thoughts expressed above are actually coming from a good place and not intended to "have a go" at any one individual but it is nevertheless a true and accurate reflection of my own personal experiences over the last 6-8 weeks. I must also say thanks to Pat Speer and Michael Hogan publicly for their calm and persuasive feedback that helped me create some space for myself whilst posting.

Lee

I agree with you on this Lee .This is my first post although I have been reading the forum for a while now.When I first came here the topics were lively and the research value was excellent.But as the AARB material started to filter through and Doug Horne became more vocal there appeared to be a change in attitude and the personal attacks more profound .I am not an educator but I do enjoy learning the rest of this site is incredible and there is much to be gleaned from it .But please lets get back to the research and leave the personal stuff where it belongs.. Ian :rolleyes:

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Lee intoned:

"There is a sense of "right and wrong", black and white thinking that most members suffer from"

Well, Lee...that is to be preferred in JFK studies. If I recall, in Stone's JFK movie, the Garrison

character said something like "we're through the looking glass here, folks, where black is white

and white is black!"

If you have studied the case and have not reached the point where BLACK IS BLACK AND WHITE

IS WHITE, then you have not acquired the proper sense of RIGHT AND WRONG to be pontificating to

others about it.

Black and white thinking and a sense of right and wrong are NECESSARY in THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH.

That you abhor it tells more about you than about us.

Jack

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Jack,

The search for truth should be open-minded. You can pick a side, but be willing to change your mind, based on the information you are given. To do less would cheat yourself.

It is unfair of you to say he has not acquired a "proper sense of right and wrong" I assume you say this because his "sense" is not the same as yours.

Kathy

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