Crime Scene Investigator - Dallas

[William Kelly]

"The Blue Book of Crime – Science of Crime Detection;" by T. G. Cooke (1938), Director Institute of Applied Sciences [FINGERPRINTS – FIREARMS IDENTIFICATION – CRIMINAL PHOTOGRAPHY – QUESTIONED DOCUMENTS – CRIMINAL METHODS – BERTILLON - MODUS OPERANDI - ] Published by the IAS, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

Webster: "Bertillon, system, [after A. Bertillon (1853-1914), Fr. Anthropologist], a system of identifying people through records of measurements coloring, fingerprints, etc."

"Crime detection and Secret Service have always been shrouded in deep veils of mystery. To the outsider, the working of the master sleuth and the results he obtains seem little less than miraculous. The exciting and often sensational manner in which the escaped criminal is finally brought to justice on as slim a clue as a single finger print thrills us, and makes us believe that the operative who succeeds is somewhat of a superman, a man endowed with all sorts of incredible and supernatural powers."

"The purpose of this book is to explode the old wornout theory to explain and demonstrate to you that once behind the scenes, criminal identification and modern scientific secret service methods are not based on supernatural or occult powers but on simple, commonsense facts which can be mastered by most any normal person of average intelligence."

THE TECHNIQUE OF CRIME

"Scotland Yard has long held a reputation for efficiency in scientific crime detection and identification. Not long ago Scotland Yard originated a new classifying method called the 'Crime Index' or 'Modus Operandi' System. Modus Operandi means 'methods of operation' – technique – or the WAY a criminal works."

"It is a well-known fact that professional criminals habitually follow one particular type of crime. For instance, some are safeblowers, some footpads, pickpockets, kidnapers, counterfeiters, burglars, jewel robbers, etc. Rarely do they operate outside the field in which they specialize. Thus detectives on a hunt for a bank robber, seldom waste time searching the hangouts of jewel robbers or pickpockets."

"Now observe this: Individuals and gangs not only follow a special line of crime, but frequently operate in their own peculiar way. The gang, or leader, has a 'style' all his own. Some gangs may rarely kill, except to insure escape; others are savage, and kill with little or no provocation….These varying methods of work, running quite generally though the operations of criminals, afford an added clew to the identity of the culprits – they serve to center suspicion on a special type of criminal group or groups. These significant habits of certain criminals reveal their METHODS OF OPERATION – hence their technique, or Modus Operandi."

"The Modus Operandi System can be used in conjunction with any other identification system. However, it is not complete in itself. This system is used to supplement the finger print system in the most up-to-date bureaus of the world today. It has been developed to a higher degree at New Scotland Yard than anywhere else…In simple English the purpose of the Modus Operandi System is to catalog each criminal according to his manner of procedure when committing a crime…"

"The Detection of Murder – A Handbook for Police Officers, Detectives, Coroners, Judges and Attorneys" by William F. Kessler, M.D. and Paul B. Weston (1953, Greenberg Pub., N.Y.)

"When a murder is discovered and the killer arrested, the usual response of the general public is, 'What a stupid man.' And what they think is true – only the 'stupid' murderers are caught. Those who escape punishment for committing murder successfully conceal their crimes by simulating suicide, accidental injury, or natural death.. Literally, thousands of people each year are getting away with murder…."

"The first officer on the scene of a homicide should learn to know the signs which would put a death in the classification of 'under suspicious circumstances' in order that the forces of law and order will not lose precious minutes in seeking out the killer."

"Death may be due to: a) natural causes, self-inflicted wounds, c) injuries received in an accident, or d) the result of a murderous attack. The officer must find out which of the four possible mechanisms caused death, and then find evidence to support his conclusions. He must, therefore, seek a person skilled in medicine to determine the cause of death from an examination of the body of the victim. Only physicians can perform a post-mortem examination. The official who performs the autopsy is usually called a coroner or a medical examiner."

"It is the duty of the police to investigate the circumstances attending the death by an examination of the scene and questioning witnesses. His object is to explore the events that led up to it and to seek a reconstruction of the last hours spent on earth of the deceased. From this portion of the initial investigation, it is expected that a reasonable conclusion as to the possible mechanism of death can be made."

"This information is passed on to the surgeon who is performing the autopsy. It is then the duty of this member of the medical profession to determine the cause of death, the mechanism that brought it about, and any contributing factors. "

"Armed with this autopsy report, the police continue to search into the background of the deceased for any evidence which would tend to clarify the details of the case and perhaps controvert the autopsy findings. Then, and only then, have the police and the medical profession discharged their responsibility."

"…Standard operating procedure of most police agencies concerned with the investigation of homicide is for the first officer at the scene to clear it of all unauthorized persons, and prevent any unauthorized persons from entering. However, care must be exercised not to clear witnesses from the scene, nor to discourage anyone from coming forward and contributing some slight bit of knowledge which may not seem important at the time, but which may later be the means of establishing the identity of the murderer."

"In the first moments of his arrival, the officer should caution all present to use care not to destroy or impair the value of possible evidence at the scene. 'Don't pick anything up, don't throw anything down. Don't touch anything, keep your hands in your pockets.' And he should personally be careful not to put his own fingerprints on any object at the scene or destroy possible valuable fingerprint impressions by careless or unintelligent handling of objects."

"Pending the arrival of detective or superiors, this officer should seek to separate the witnesses to prevent their talking together. He can do this easily enough by keeping them busy giving him information as to their names, places of employment, addresses, telephone numbers, etc. If time permits, he should draw each witness a little to one side and secure a statement from him as to just what he knows of the circumstances of the case, briefly writing the facts in his notebook."

"It is essential that adequate photographs be taken in every case of suspicious death. A competent photographer will be assigned to take pictures of the scene and the dead body…The scene should not be disturbed until the photographs have been made…Photos should be from every possible angle. The cameras not only records but oftentimes picks up and delineates things not readily visible to the eye of the ordinary observer. Each photo should be marked, 'looking east from extreme northeast corner of room,' 'view of victim directly above,' etc. A ruler can be used to indicate the scale of the photos."

"…In order to guard against any break in the chain of evidence, the photographer should keep the film in his sole custody until he develops the pictures. Then he may deliver the negatives to whomever is in charge of records and files in the police department concerned. Later, he must be prepared to testify in court that he took the pictures of the scene, had them in his custody until developed, and that the picture now being offered in evidence is one of those taken and developed by him."

"A sketch of the scene may be used to supplement the photographs for a better understanding of the distances involved and the location of objects therein. If possible it should be to scale, with some mark which will permit orientation, and objects located by distances to two reference points."

HISTORY OF SCENE

"As the scene is being photographed and processed for fingerprints – before anything has been moved – the assigned detective, his superior, or the ranking officer at the scene should write down a history of the scene or dictate to a stenographer if available. This commentary would start with physical description of the premises concerned, then the immediate area of the scene, and the position and general appearance of the body. Then the name of the photographer and some details of the photo taken would be noted, followed by the name of the person taking fingerprints at the scene, as well as others who are present."

"As the crime scene search progresses all evidence, particularly weapons, found at the scene would also be noted, together with exact information as to where found, condition, description, and by whom found."

SEARCHING THE SCENE

"It is not a difficult problem to search the scene of a crime. The initial search is for fingerprints and weapons, then for any clues or traces which may give information as to who may have been at the scene of the crime at the time of death. Then a search of the personal affects of the victim should be instituted for anything which may throw light on his habits and associates."

"The most important factor in the examination of the scene is the preservation of evidence. Therefore, everyone present must know his job, and each must be assigned a specific phase of the search in order that every possible nook and cranny of the scene will be searched methodically, and all evidence thoroughly evaluated by men who know the possible value of the various types of evidence, not only in the prosecution of the murderer when apprehended, but also in the detection of murder initially."

Edited February 17, 2010 by William Kelly

[Pat Speer]

I don't know when Dallas went to the CSI concept but my dept, Detroit PD, went to it in 1971 and I was in the 1st class for CSI. Prior to that in Detroit, Central Photo would do the pictures, Latent Prints would handle print evidence and the Crime Lab would handle the blood and other body fluids. We went to a CSI approach because there was a tendency to miss stuff. My partner and I handled a number of mutliple homcides and homicide was much happier the way they were handled by one unit.

Dallas Pd certainly deserves alot of criticism for their work on this case, but perhaps a portion of the problem was a number of different people from different units responsible for various components of the scene. We often spent 24hrs or more processing a scene with the thoroughness required and we never had a dead President.

They have no good excuse. The crime lab headed by J.C. Day was responsible for evidence photos, fingerprint collection, and the collection and analysis of other evidence. Pretty much the only overlap was that the fingerprinting of suspects was done by the Identification Bureau.

There was an additional problem, of course. Day, as all too many crime lab employees, was not at heart a scientist, but someone who saw the crime lab as a way to catch bad guys. As a result he worked hand in hand with homicide detectives like Fritz. He may have been compromised as a result.

In the 90's, as I recall, the FBI stopped promoting rank and file agents into its crime lab, after it was discovered that a number of these agents had been coloring their testimony to convict "bad guys", including the original WTC bombers.

[William Kelly]

I don't know when Dallas went to the CSI concept but my dept, Detroit PD, went to it in 1971 and I was in the 1st class for CSI. Prior to that in Detroit, Central Photo would do the pictures, Latent Prints would handle print evidence and the Crime Lab would handle the blood and other body fluids. We went to a CSI approach because there was a tendency to miss stuff. My partner and I handled a number of mutliple homcides and homicide was much happier the way they were handled by one unit.

Dallas Pd certainly deserves alot of criticism for their work on this case, but perhaps a portion of the problem was a number of different people from different units responsible for various components of the scene. We often spent 24hrs or more processing a scene with the thoroughness required and we never had a dead President.

They have no good excuse. The crime lab headed by J.C. Day was responsible for evidence photos, fingerprint collection, and the collection and analysis of other evidence. Pretty much the only overlap was that the fingerprinting of suspects was done by the Identification Bureau.

There was an additional problem, of course. Day, as all too many crime lab employees, was not at heart a scientist, but someone who saw the crime lab as a way to catch bad guys. As a result he worked hand in hand with homicide detectives like Fritz. He may have been compromised as a result.

In the 90's, as I recall, the FBI stopped promoting rank and file agents into its crime lab, after it was discovered that a number of these agents had been coloring their testimony to convict "bad guys", including the original WTC bombers.

"Walk-through: An initial assessment conducted by carefully walking through the

scene to evaluate the situation, recognize potential evidence, and determine

resources required. Also, a final survey conducted to ensure the scene has been

effectively and completely processed."Title: Crime Scene Investigation: A Guide for Law Enforcement.

Series: Research Report

Author: Technical Working Group on Crime Scene Investigation

Published: January 2000

Subject: Criminal investigation

49 pages

78,000 byteshttp://www.ncjrs.org

Chain of custody: A process used to maintain and document the chronological

history of the evidence. (Documents should include name or initials of the

individual collecting the evidence, each person or entity subsequently having

custody of it, dates the items were collected or transferred, agency and case

number, victim's or suspect's name, and a brief description of the item.)

Section A Arriving at the Scene: Initial Response/Prioritization of Efforts

1. Initial Response/Receipt of InformationPrinciple: One of the most important aspects of securing the crime scene is to preserve the scene with minimal contamination* and disturbance of physical evidence. The initial response to an incident shall be expeditious and methodical. Upon arrival, the officer(s) shall assess the scene and treat the

incident as a crime scene.

Policy: The initial responding officer(s)* shall promptly, yet cautiously,

approach and enter crime scenes, remaining observant of any persons, vehicles,

events, potential evidence, and environmental conditions.

Procedure: The initial responding officer(s) should:

a. Note or log dispatch information (e.g., address/location, time, date, type of call, parties involved).

b. Be aware of any persons or vehicles leaving the crime scene.

c. Approach the scene cautiously, scan the entire area to thoroughly assess

the scene, and note any possible secondary crime scenes. Be aware of any

persons and vehicles in the vicinity that may be related to the crime.

d. Make initial observations (look, listen, smell) to assess the scene and ensure officer safety before proceeding.

e. Remain alert and attentive. Assume the crime is ongoing until determined to be otherwise.

f. Treat the location as a crime scene until assessed and determined to be

otherwise.Summary: It is important for the initial responding officer(s) to be observant

when approaching, entering, and exiting a crime scene.

I'd like to take a "Walkthrough" of the Dallas crime scenes of November 22, 1963, applying the CSI policies and procedures and see what's there.

Does anybody want to go along with me?

I'd appreciate Evan Marshall and Tink Thompson, veteran crime scene investigators, to come along and comment if they have the time.

Bill Kelly

Edited February 24, 2010 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mooney.htm

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to approach.

Mr. BALL - Were you standing there when the President went by?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. I took my hat off.

Mr. BALL - That is on Main Street?

Mr. MOONEY - Right.

Mr. BALL - And that is--

Mr. MOONEY - 505 Main.

Mr. BALL - That is where the cavalcade turned north?

Mr. MOONEY - Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL - That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't it--south of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; it is a short block there.

Mr. BALL - After the President's car went by, what did you do?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, we were we was more or less milling around. We just kept standing there, more or less talking to one another.

I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many.

Mr. BALL - You say "we." Who was with you?

Mr. MOONEY - There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP judge.

I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall how many more. There was a number of officers there.

Mr. BALL - What happened, as you remember?

Mr. MOONEY - After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.

Mr. BALL - You mean to the right?

Mr. MOONEY - To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. And I turned my head to the right.

Mr. BALL - That would be looking towards Houston Street?

Mr. MOONEY - Looking towards the old court.

Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that begin to take place after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingrain he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running.

Mr. BALL - Which way?

Mr. MOONEY - Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this lawn, across Elm Street there--- I assume it is approximately the location the President was hit.

Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various things. I was running at full speed.

Mr. BALL - When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.

Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there…..

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL - Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was calming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.

So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.

Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.

So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume.

Mr. BALL - I show you three pictures. Officer; for your convenience I will give you the pictures.

I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for identification.)

Mr. BALL - Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the building as you saw it that afternoon?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - About what time of day was this?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL - Did you look at your watch?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was.

Mr. BALL - Were you the only officer in that corner?

Mr. MOONEY - At that very moment I was.

Mr. BALL - You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out for me what boxes you squeezed through?

Mr. MOONEY - IF I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle right here right through here. There could be a space. There is a space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the shells.

Mr. BALL - All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space?

Mr. MOONEY - I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that time.

Mr. BALL - That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an arrow shown on Exhibit 508.

Now, I will show you 509.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for identification.)

Is that the way the boxes looked?

Mr. MOONEY - That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge.

Mr. BALL - Now, does that look like

Mr. MOONEY - That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Are they arranged as they were when you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY - I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box tilted off.

Mr. BALL - What were the boxes---did they have a label on them, two of the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY - These do. I didn't notice the label at that time.

Mr. BALL - That is a picture of the window?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the top box was tilted?

Mr. MOONEY - The end of it was laying this way.

Mr. BALL - You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease?

Mr. MOONEY - This crease was right in this area of this box.

Mr. BALL - You mean over on the edge?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my finger.

Mr. BALL - Did it go into the box?

Mr. MOONEY - Very slight crease, very slight.

Mr. BALL - Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on 509?

Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing--

Mr. BALL - Tell us where you found it?

Mr. MOONEY - It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. This here is kind of blurred.

Mr. BALL - We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for identification.)

Mr. BALL - Is that the empty shells you found?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Are they shown there?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?

Mr. MOONEY - All right.

Mr. BALL - Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the way they were when you saw them, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the first shot.

Mr. BALL - You cannot speculate about that?

Mr. MOONEY - You cannot speculate about that.

Mr. BALL - Those were empty shells?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - They were turned over to Captain Fritz?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. They were brass cartridges, brass shells.

Mr. BALL - Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.

Mr. BALL - Which ones?

Mr. MOONEY - This one and this one.

Mr. BALL - Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY - The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And this one and this one, they were further away from this one.

Mr. BALL - Well--

Mr. MOONEY - But as to being positive of the exact distance

Mr. BALL - You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?

Mr. MOONEY - As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

Mr. BALL - Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as "A", "B", and "C."

Now, I didn't quite understand---did you say it was your memory that "A" and "B" were not that close together?

Mr. MOONEY - Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to have been over this way a little further.

Mr. BALL - You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?"

Mr. MOONEY - Closer to the "C"; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have marked as 511.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for identification.)

Mr. BALL - Does this appear to be--- first of all, does that appear-----

Mr. MOONEY - There are two cartridges.

Where is the third one?

Mr. BALL - The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from another angle.

Mr. MOONEY - This looks more like it than this angle here.

Mr. BALL - You can see it is a different angle.

Mr. MOONEY - That is right.

Mr. BALL - Now, in this same picture 511, you see a box in the window. Does that seem to be about the angle---

Mr. MOONEY - Yes; that box was tilted.

Mr. BALL - That was tilted in that way?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509--

Mr. MOONEY - The box should have been actually tilted.

Mr. BALL - In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it?

Mr. MOONEY - If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen off--looked like he might have knocked it off.

Mr. BALL - Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Is that the box that had the crease on it?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL - Now, the crease was started from the edge, and came across?

Mr. MOONEY - yes, sir; just a slight crease.

Mr. BALL - I have another picture. This is 512.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for identification.)

Mr. BALL - Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that show the cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, compare that with 510.

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Is that about the way it looked?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is.

Mr. BALL - Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side.

Mr. MOONEY - Well, they were further over to the left of the window than over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture.

Mr. BALL - In 509?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference to--

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here, and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes.

Mr. BALL - You could stand on the right of the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this ledge.

Mr. BALL - And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - Was the window open when you got there?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked out the window?

Mr. MOONEY - I don't believe I could, without, disturbing them. Possibly I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it.

Mr. BALL - Now, I show you Exhibit 513.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for identification.)

Mr. BALL - This is another view of that window.

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you see it from that angle?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL - You don't think you have ever seen it---

Mr. MOONEY - From that angle.

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?

Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.

Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?

Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.

Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?

Mr. MOONEY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Where was that?

Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.

Mr. BALL - On the same carton?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

Senator COOPER - How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.

Senator COOPER - You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER - It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY - Sir?

Senator COOPER - And the paper bag you spoke of?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - How big a bag was it?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.

Mr. BALL - About 12 inches?

Mr. MOONEY - About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.

Mr. BALL - What color was the bag?

Mr. MOONEY - It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any soda pop?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a paper bag at any other window?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - Any other chicken bones?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; except in the picture.

Mr. BALL - You didn't see it?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - I showed you that.

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you did not see that two-wheel truck?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was But I didn't check it.

Mr. BALL - How long did you stay there?

Mr. MOONEY - Sir?

Mr. BALL - How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found the location of the three cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of officers up there. The floor was covered with officers. And we were searching, trying to find the weapon at that time.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when it was found?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun."

Mr. BALL - Did you go over there?

Mr. MOONEY - I stepped over there.

Mr. BALL - What did you see?

Mr. MOONEY - I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright position. The scope was up.

Mr. BALL - Well, now, will show you a picture, 514.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for identification.)

Senator COOPER - May I ask---did you change the position of the shells which you have identified?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them.

Senator COOPER - Or the bag, or chicken leg?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

Senator COOPER - Until--before the chief came?

Mr. MOONEY - Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief.

…..Senator COOPER - As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells.

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is---

Senator COOPER - The chicken and the paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off, laying partially over on the legs.

Senator COOPER - That was the box which you said you observed a crease in?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight.

Senator COOPER - Is that the box which was the top box?

Mr. MOONEY - The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my knowledge.

Senator COOPER - Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.)

Mr. MOONEY - In other words, if you just run against it, you would have knocked it off.

The CHAIRMAN - Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very helpful.

Edited February 27, 2010 by William Kelly