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A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry


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I'm just curious. How long has this nebula in that Altgens been an issue. How much stuff needs to go back to basics in the sense of a complex derivative possibly has as paes of its foundation a fundamental flaw. What does it change/mean?

Actually, it changes very little. For some thirty or forty years, it was obvious that the windshield had not been penetrated by a bullet although it had been hit by a bullet fragment from the rear. At some point, David Lifton became interested in the issue because his body alteration theory was sympathetic to any claim of windshield alteration. But David never thought the "spiral nebula" thing had anything to it. Actually, it may have been Fetzer who first gave currency to the notion back in 2000 when he published Doug Weldon's article in one of his books. He published a copy of Altgens #6 and circled the "spiral nebula" region of the windshield as "Circle 1." Fetzer's caption for the photograph ran: "The Altgens photograph. Circle 1. The apparent through-and-through hole in the windshield..."

That's typical of Fetzer to illustrate arguments with unqualified captions that turn out to be fictitious. Apparently, Doug Weldon himself is staying far away from the claim since he won't say anything about it.

So once again we've used up a fair amount of energy and time debunking something that apparently grew still-born from Fetzer's imagination. It won't be the first time... and probably not the last... that this kind of effort has proved necessary.

Josiah Thompson

Wasn't the 'spiral nebulae' concept from another researcher originally? Seems to me there was something about it in Fetzer's video program.

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I'm just curious. How long has this nebula in that Altgens been an issue. How much stuff needs to go back to basics in the sense of a complex derivative possibly has as paes of its foundation a fundamental flaw. What does it change/mean?

Actually, it changes very little. For some thirty or forty years, it was obvious that the windshield had not been penetrated by a bullet although it had been hit by a bullet fragment from the rear. At some point, David Lifton became interested in the issue because his body alteration theory was sympathetic to any claim of windshield alteration. But David never thought the "spiral nebula" thing had anything to it. Actually, it may have been Fetzer who first gave currency to the notion back in 2000 when he published Doug Weldon's article in one of his books. He published a copy of Altgens #6 and circled the "spiral nebula" region of the windshield as "Circle 1." Fetzer's caption for the photograph ran: "The Altgens photograph. Circle 1. The apparent through-and-through hole in the windshield..."

That's typical of Fetzer to illustrate arguments with unqualified captions that turn out to be fictitious. Apparently, Doug Weldon himself is staying far away from the claim since he won't say anything about it.

So once again we've used up a fair amount of energy and time debunking something that apparently grew still-born from Fetzer's imagination. It won't be the first time... and probably not the last... that this kind of effort has proved necessary.

Josiah Thompson

Wasn't the 'spiral nebulae' concept from another researcher originally? Seems to me there was something about it in Fetzer's video program.

I don't have a clue how it started. It would be interesting to see who first came up with this "spiral nebula" idea and how it was offered.

Josiah Thompson

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First question: Is it the case that Altgens #5 (taken at Z 255) shows damage to the windshield? Or is it the case that no discernible damage to the windshield is present in Altgens #5?

Second question: Would you agree that Altgens #6 shows damage to the windshield in the approximate spot where Frazier's notes and photo show damage to the windshield? Can you discern any difference between the damage shown in Altgens #6 to the windshield and the later damage to the windshield memorialized in Frazier's notes and photo?

Josiah Thompson

I cannot believe that some still think they see a hole in the windshield in Altgens 6, but if all they have is the less than sharp image Jack posted, then I can understand the mistake.

In the full Betzner photo there was a black woman holding what looks to be a rolled up newspaper in her hand as she is waving at the President passing by. JFK had not yet been hit when Betzner took his photo. As the car rolled passed and as the woman lowered her newspaper - Altgens took his photo at a time that at least two shots appear to have been fired. A good quality Altgens 6 photo shows no hole/nebula, but rather the black woman's hand holding onto the newspaper she had with her.

When Altgens took his 7th photo, the windshield was obviously damaged by that point. If one does a hi-res scan of that damage and reverses the image so to be compared to the White House Garage photo of the windshield, then in my view they cannot be the same windshield. The damage in Altgens 7 shows a good size frosted area of glass that the sunlight is illuminating. That frosted appearance can be from nothing else than the many cracks in the glass from a projectile hitting it. The White House Garage photos show only a small chip in the glass and no multitude of cracks that would pick up sunlight as what happened in Altgens 7.

Somewhere between this forum and Lancer's there should be images that were created showing what I have just said to be true.

Bill Miller

Hi Bill. I hope you'll pursue this and give us the visuals that confirm or disconfirm your opinion.

Josiah Thompson

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  • 7 months later...

EXCELLENT, Doug. I am with you! There WAS a hole. It very likely came from the south knoll.

The government hid the hole and tried to produce windshields with cracks but no hole.

I agree with ALL of your research, but am not 100 percent sure that the windshield bullet was

the throat bullet, because there is no evidence to support a bullet in the throat...since none

(that we know of) was found.

Jack

Was it then the temple bullet? Because the shot could have not come from Kennedy's right side, or over at the so called "grassy knoll" and blewback where it did.

If it would have come from there, at the very least, Mrs. Kennedy' face would have been covered in blood and brains.

At the worst - had it not been a frangible bullet - Mrs. Kennedy herself would have been also hit.

( I understand her blouse was covered in blood )

Edited by Peter McGuire
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here is one jacqueline's own quotes peter, there are many on the web also see nellie connally's ...b

<LI>History!… Everybody kept saying to me to put a cold towel around my head and wipe the blood off… later, I saw myself in the mirror; my whole face spattered with blood and hair… I wiped it off with Kleenex… History!… I thought, no one really wants me there. Then one second later I thought, why did I wash the blood off? I should have left it there, let them see what they’ve done… If I’d just had the blood and caked hair when they took the picture… Then later I said to Bobby— what’s the line between history and drama? I should have kept the blood on. - View Quote Details on History!… Everybody kept saying to me to put a cold…

http://www.quotesstar.com/people/occupations/united-states-first-ladies/jacqueline-kennedy-onassis-quotes.html

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First question: Is it the case that Altgens #5 (taken at Z 255) shows damage to the windshield? Or is it the case that no discernible damage to the windshield is present in Altgens #5?

Second question: Would you agree that Altgens #6 shows damage to the windshield in the approximate spot where Frazier's notes and photo show damage to the windshield? Can you discern any difference between the damage shown in Altgens #6 to the windshield and the later damage to the windshield memorialized in Frazier's notes and photo?

Josiah Thompson

I cannot believe that some still think they see a hole in the windshield in Altgens 6, but if all they have is the less than sharp image Jack posted, then I can understand the mistake.

In the full Betzner photo there was a black woman holding what looks to be a rolled up newspaper in her hand as she is waving at the President passing by. JFK had not yet been hit when Betzner took his photo. As the car rolled passed and as the woman lowered her newspaper - Altgens took his photo at a time that at least two shots appear to have been fired. A good quality Altgens 6 photo shows no hole/nebula, but rather the black woman's hand holding onto the newspaper she had with her.

When Altgens took his 7th photo, the windshield was obviously damaged by that point. If one does a hi-res scan of that damage and reverses the image so to be compared to the White House Garage photo of the windshield, then in my view they cannot be the same windshield. The damage in Altgens 7 shows a good size frosted area of glass that the sunlight is illuminating. That frosted appearance can be from nothing else than the many cracks in the glass from a projectile hitting it. The White House Garage photos show only a small chip in the glass and no multitude of cracks that would pick up sunlight as what happened in Altgens 7.

Somewhere between this forum and Lancer's there should be images that were created showing what I have just said to be true.

Bill Miller

Bill:

Though I do not wish to reengage this thread. To Peter McGuire: No, the shot could not have come from the right side. To Bill Miller: I believe your post was clear but I would like everyone to understand what you are stating. You are stating that the damage seen in the windshield in Altgen's 7 is NOT the same as the damage seen in the windshield in the WH Garage photos? Correct? Therefore, you are stating that the windshield seen in Altgen's 7 was changed to another damaged windshield before or at the time the limousine arrived at the WH Garage? Correct?

My best,

Doug Weldon

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Though I do not wish to reengage this thread. To Peter McGuire: No, the shot could not have come from the right side.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Thank you for your response.

This makes this matter, as it relates to the fatal shot, unresolved.

The Kill Shot did not come from the right side, or the so called "Grassy Knoll" area or the fence.

No Badgeman, Files , nor does any testimony to that effect matter. The smoke seen in the area seems to have been a diversion, and actors were employed, just like the so called "Three Tramps."

This thing keeps getting worse and worse.

If that were possible.

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Though I do not wish to reengage this thread. To Peter McGuire: No, the shot could not have come from the right side.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Thank you for your response.

This makes this matter, as it relates to the fatal shot, unresolved.

The Kill Shot did not come from the right side, or the so called "Grassy Knoll" area or the fence.

No Badgeman, Files , nor does any testimony to that effect matter. The smoke seen in the area seems to have been a diversion, and actors were employed, just like the so called "Three Tramps."

This thing keeps getting worse and worse.

If that were possible.

Peter:

I hope that I was clear. Since this thread is about a shot through the windshield I was only confirming that the shot through the windshield could not have come from the right side. I am not dismissing the fatal shot or other shots coming from the right side.

Best,

Doug Weldon

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  • 1 year later...

I am back from exile. Here is how I see the hole in the windshield in Altgens.

Attached thumbnail(s)

Jack

---------------

Good one Jack, and the placement is the same as the “official Photo" of the damaged windshield. Too close for just lucky coincidence.

Maybe these Spiral nebulas or Galaxies wouldn’t show up at all in the Altgens photo if it wasn’t for the dark background of the boy’s head and the ladies bag on the right.

But it just occurred to me that it doesn’t matter if it is a hole or damage from the inside because this was before the exploding head shot that WC apologists claim caused any damage, holes, and dents in the inside, even on the chrome inside the windshield frame.

This was taken after the "Magic Bullet" and before the exploding headshot...

This is evidence of more shots whether or not there are any holes which there maybe two hole Nebulas or damage now including the chrome.

I never knew Doug but His work has given me more insight on the little things that we miss.

Take Care, Jack and all our folks for justice and lets demand they free the files and let the Truth Roll.

Edited by Jim Glover
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  • 3 weeks later...
I'm just curious. How long has this nebula in that Altgens been an issue. How much stuff needs to go back to basics in the sense of a complex derivative possibly has as paes of its foundation a fundamental flaw. What does it change/mean?

Actually, it changes very little. For some thirty or forty years, it was obvious that the windshield had not been penetrated by a bullet although it had been hit by a bullet fragment from the rear. At some point, David Lifton became interested in the issue because his body alteration theory was sympathetic to any claim of windshield alteration. But David never thought the "spiral nebula" thing had anything to it. Actually, it may have been Fetzer who first gave currency to the notion back in 2000 when he published Doug Weldon's article in one of his books. He published a copy of Altgens #6 and circled the "spiral nebula" region of the windshield as "Circle 1." Fetzer's caption for the photograph ran: "The Altgens photograph. Circle 1. The apparent through-and-through hole in the windshield..."

That's typical of Fetzer to illustrate arguments with unqualified captions that turn out to be fictitious. Apparently, Doug Weldon himself is staying far away from the claim since he won't say anything about it.

So once again we've used up a fair amount of energy and time debunking something that apparently grew still-born from Fetzer's imagination. It won't be the first time... and probably not the last... that this kind of effort has proved necessary.

Josiah Thompson

Wasn't the 'spiral nebulae' concept from another researcher originally? Seems to me there was something about it in Fetzer's video program.

Pam I believe on this thread we found two cracks and maybe they are from the inside, Jack White blew up the one to the right of the rear mirror but there is a bigger one to the right of that which is highlighted by the ladies bag in the Background.

I always suspicious of why the photographer, Algens and his wife were found dead about the same time in their Dallas home, but he must have noticed two holes or inside cracks also.

Two cracks or holes blows the Single bullet theory.

Jim

Edited by Jim Glover
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Hi Bill,

There is no damage to the windshield shown in the Altgens photo of the man in the doorway that was taken at Z255. The next Altgens photo, taken after the head shot as Clint Hill is climbing on the back of the limousine, for the first time shows damage to the windshield at the location later shown in FBI photos taken on the night of November 22/23rd at the Secret Service garage. Since there is no damage visible at Z255 and there is damage visible after the head shot, it would seem reasonable to think that the damage to the windshield was caused by a fragment from the head shot. The damage was found to be non-penetrating with a lead smear on the interior of the windshield. Blood spatter on the interior of the windshield is also visible in photos taken on he night of November 22/23. All this is also described in Robert Frazier's notes of his examination of the car at that time.

JT

Is it true that the Atkins photo of the Man in the Doorway that shows the damaged windshield was taken BEFORE the fatal head shot?

BK

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Hi Bill,

There is no damage to the windshield shown in the Altgens photo of the man in the doorway that was taken at Z255. The next Altgens photo, taken after the head shot as Clint Hill is climbing on the back of the limousine, for the first time shows damage to the windshield at the location later shown in FBI photos taken on the night of November 22/23rd at the Secret Service garage. Since there is no damage visible at Z255 and there is damage visible after the head shot, it would seem reasonable to think that the damage to the windshield was caused by a fragment from the head shot. The damage was found to be non-penetrating with a lead smear on the interior of the windshield. Blood spatter on the interior of the windshield is also visible in photos taken on he night of November 22/23. All this is also described in Robert Frazier's notes of his examination of the car at that time.

JT

Is it true that the Atkins photo of the Man in the Doorway that shows the damaged windshield was taken BEFORE the fatal head shot?

BK

Thanks, BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited by William Kelly
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Josiah, I don’t agree. Jack White showed a blow-up of the windshield, the same photo with Billy Lovelady in the doorway.

Jack’s blowup clearly shows damage just to the right of the rearview mirror looking from Altgen’s view and you have to go back and read all the posts to see that there is another larger point of damage close to the Driver on the windshield.

Can you post photos to show what you are saying because I have seen the blowups on this thread.

The official photo of the “crack” might have fresh chalking to show it is a replacement windshield, and two cracks or holes on the “official" photo of the limo’s windshield would be too much for the cover-up to deal with.

Can you show the blood on that crack of the “official" photo, and who claimed to see the blood on that crack on that photo?

You could be right, I could be wrong but after seeing both "spiral nebulas” on blowup photos on this thread I need proof that I did not see what is here on this thread.

Did you see the blowup of Jack white’s hard work on the area near the mirror on the windshield? this is before the head shot and Kennedy is still holding his throat and Jackie Kennedy's white gloved hand is holding on to JFK.

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