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A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry


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BARB AND DOUG YOU HAVE MENTIONED FERGUSON'S DOCUMENT THAT PAMELA RECEIVED I FINALLY FOUND IT IN STUFF IT APPEARS TO BE WHEN SHE FIRST POSTED ABOUT IT.FOR YOU....FWIW...B

Subject: Subject: The JFK Limo at the White House Garage - Ford Memo 12/18/63

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:52 -0500

From: Pamela McElwain <pamelam@primenet.com>

Organization: Die Zauberflote

Newsgroups: startext.jfk

I''m including below a typed copy of a document that was sent to me

some time ago on a general request from the National Archives for data

on the limo SS-100-X. I am not finding a document number for it, am

requesting that from NARA, but do find numbers for two similar

documents, also inter-company Ford memos regarding "Changes in the

White House 'Bubbletop'". They are 180-10112-10188 and

180-10505-10086. Both are also 2-page memos, and their status is

"Postponed in full".

This document is both puzzling and fascinating to me, because it

indicates that the original intent of the SS was to put the limo back

into service as quickly as possible. It is quite pathetic to think of

this lonely man, Vaughn Fergusun, trying to clean the blood away from

the seat cushion buttons with his pen knife, and trying to clean the

carpet. For some reason (well the SS DID need a good parade car for

the President) the fact that an assassination had just occurred in

this vehicle, and that even if it could be put back into service,

driving in it might not bring good luck, was no deterrence to

expediently correcting the damage to the car; this decision had to

have been made made at the time the limo was returned to the White

House garage.

It was, then, at some time subsequent to this memo, (which relates to

the days immediately following the assassination, though written on

December 18th), that the decision was made to send the car to Ohio on

December 12 for rebuilding as an armored vehicle.

Also note Ferguson's description of the windshield, its removal, and

the sequence of action on the limo lap robes. The 'lap robes' were

blankets carried in the side pockets of the rear of the limo, used

when the weather was cool, yet the top down, to keep the passengers

warm.

(Markley and Ferguson were Ford Company employees; Morgan Geis was

SAIC of the White House Garage. btw, it is odd that SS-100-X was

referred to as the WH 'Bubbletop' as the car usually referred to by

that name was the Eisenhower Lincoln. And the plastic top on SS-100-X

that was referred to as the 'bubbletop' was the only top for this car;

it had a 'leatherette' cover that was placed over it to make it look

like an enclosed sedan. This was what was done at Parkland Hospital,

for example.)

Ford Motor Company Washington Office

Intra-Company Communication December 18, 1963

TO: R.W. Markley, JR.

FROM: F. Vaughn Ferguson

Re: Changes in White House "Bubbletop"

On November 23rd, the day following the President's assassination, I

went to the White House garage in response to a telephone call to my

home from the Secret Service. When I arrived about 10:00 a.m., the

White House "Bubbletop" was in a stall in the garage with two Secret

Service men detailed to guard it. A canvas cover was over the unit. I

was permitted only to see the windshield of the car and then only

after the guards had received permission from higher ranking Secret

Service personnel. Examination of the windshield disclosed no

perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from

the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror.

I was at the garage only about one hour that day, but while I was

there Morgan Geis contacted the Secret Service and told them to have

me make arrangements to replace the windshield.

The following day, when I returned to the garage, the unit was no

longer under guard. The Secret Service had cleaned the leather

upholstery the day before, but underneath the upholstery buttons dried

blood was still in evidence. On my own ititiative, I pulled up these

upholstery buttons and with a knife removed the caked blood around

them. At this time, there was a heavy odor of dried blood still

noticeable. There was a large blood spot on the floor covering which

the Secret Service had not been able to remove, but I did nothing

further about it that day.

In response to my call of November 25, personnel from Arlington Glass

came to the White House garage that same day to replace the

windshield. The Arlington Glass personnel advised Morgan Geis and me

that removal would cause additional damage to the windshield but Geis

told them to go ahead and remove it anyway. The Arlington Glass

personnel did remove it by putting their feet against the inside of

the windshield and pushing it out. In doing so, additional cracks

formed (downward to the bottom of the windshield). A Mr. Davis of the

Secret Service then took the windshield and put it in the stockroom

under lock and key and I have not seen it since.

That same day, November 25, I tried to clean the blood spot on the

carpet with only moderate success. Late that afternoon I called Hess

and Eisenhardt who agreed to send new carpeting including masking and

binding. It was also that day that Morgan Geis called my attention to

a dent in the chrome topping of the windshield at a point just above

the rear view mirror and asked why I hadn't fixed it while I was at

it. I told him that my experience with chrome had been that in trying

to remove a dent of that size lead only to additional marks that

further marred the trim. In addition, the dent is not visible when the

top is on the unit.

On November 26th, late in the afternoon after I had left, the carpet

masking and binding arrived at the garage from Hess and Eisenhardt.

When I got to the garage on the 27th and was told that the carpeting

material was in, I contacted Morgan Geis who arranged with the White

House upholsery man to receive the metal piece containing the carpet,

remove the old carpeting, replace it with the new carpet, and return

the piect to me for reinstallation in the "Bubbletop." This

upholsterer did not complete the job until late Friday afternoon the

29th.

On the morning of December 2nd, the re-carpeted piece was delivered to

me by a Secret Service agent named Davis and I then reinstalled it.

Also on the 2nd of December I noticed that the two lap robes had a few

blood spots on them, but, more than that, were soiled from handling

and required cleaning. The White House chauffeurs were detailed to

take the lap robes to Fort Myer for cleaning. These persons remained

with the lap robes until they were cleaned and returned the same day.

I think this represents a complete account of changes made in the

"Bubbletop" since November 22.

F.V. Ferguson

New photo of second windshield on limousine today in Dearborn, MI. NARA

doc. 180-10120-10021,Photo of SS100X at Parkland with bucket, CE353,

photo of SS100X today, Jackie's WC testimony, Altgens windshield,

info on "22 November 1963" at my website.

http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html

Photos of sites relevant to Mozart's life in Salzburg and Paris at my

linked Mozart site.

F

SORRY THE LINK IS BROKEN I THINK IT IS IN THE MARSH COLLECTION UNDER THE LIMO HEADING...ON KEN RAHN'S SITE

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/ DARN THE LINK TO HIS HOME PAGE FINALLY CAME UP AND IS BROKEN ALSO... :o^_^B):) BUT IS ENABLED GOT ONE RIGHT SHEESH..... :o THE LINKS ARE WORKING TODAY YAHOO :lol:

I CANNOT GET INTO HIS SITE...THE GREMLIN IS AT IT AGAIN...BLAH...

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Limousine/windshield.txt

Edited by Bernice Moore
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BARB AND DOUG YOU HAVE MENTIONED FERGUSON'S DOCUMENT THAT PAMELA RECEIVED I FINALLY FOUND IT IN STUFF IT APPEARS TO BE WHEN SHE FIRST POSTED ABOUT IT.FOR YOU....FWIW...B

Subject: Subject: The JFK Limo at the White House Garage - Ford Memo 12/18/63

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:52 -0500

From: Pamela McElwain <pamelam@primenet.com>

Organization: Die Zauberflote

Newsgroups: startext.jfk

I''m including below a typed copy of a document that was sent to me

some time ago on a general request from the National Archives for data

on the limo SS-100-X. I am not finding a document number for it, am

requesting that from NARA, but do find numbers for two similar

documents, also inter-company Ford memos regarding "Changes in the

White House 'Bubbletop'". They are 180-10112-10188 and

180-10505-10086. Both are also 2-page memos, and their status is

"Postponed in full".

This document is both puzzling and fascinating to me, because it

indicates that the original intent of the SS was to put the limo back

into service as quickly as possible. It is quite pathetic to think of

this lonely man, Vaughn Fergusun, trying to clean the blood away from

the seat cushion buttons with his pen knife, and trying to clean the

carpet. For some reason (well the SS DID need a good parade car for

the President) the fact that an assassination had just occurred in

this vehicle, and that even if it could be put back into service,

driving in it might not bring good luck, was no deterrence to

expediently correcting the damage to the car; this decision had to

have been made made at the time the limo was returned to the White

House garage.

It was, then, at some time subsequent to this memo, (which relates to

the days immediately following the assassination, though written on

December 18th), that the decision was made to send the car to Ohio on

December 12 for rebuilding as an armored vehicle.

Also note Ferguson's description of the windshield, its removal, and

the sequence of action on the limo lap robes. The 'lap robes' were

blankets carried in the side pockets of the rear of the limo, used

when the weather was cool, yet the top down, to keep the passengers

warm.

(Markley and Ferguson were Ford Company employees; Morgan Geis was

SAIC of the White House Garage. btw, it is odd that SS-100-X was

referred to as the WH 'Bubbletop' as the car usually referred to by

that name was the Eisenhower Lincoln. And the plastic top on SS-100-X

that was referred to as the 'bubbletop' was the only top for this car;

it had a 'leatherette' cover that was placed over it to make it look

like an enclosed sedan. This was what was done at Parkland Hospital,

for example.)

Ford Motor Company Washington Office

Intra-Company Communication December 18, 1963

TO: R.W. Markley, JR.

FROM: F. Vaughn Ferguson

Re: Changes in White House "Bubbletop"

On November 23rd, the day following the President's assassination, I

went to the White House garage in response to a telephone call to my

home from the Secret Service. When I arrived about 10:00 a.m., the

White House "Bubbletop" was in a stall in the garage with two Secret

Service men detailed to guard it. A canvas cover was over the unit. I

was permitted only to see the windshield of the car and then only

after the guards had received permission from higher ranking Secret

Service personnel. Examination of the windshield disclosed no

perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from

the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror.

I was at the garage only about one hour that day, but while I was

there Morgan Geis contacted the Secret Service and told them to have

me make arrangements to replace the windshield.

The following day, when I returned to the garage, the unit was no

longer under guard. The Secret Service had cleaned the leather

upholstery the day before, but underneath the upholstery buttons dried

blood was still in evidence. On my own ititiative, I pulled up these

upholstery buttons and with a knife removed the caked blood around

them. At this time, there was a heavy odor of dried blood still

noticeable. There was a large blood spot on the floor covering which

the Secret Service had not been able to remove, but I did nothing

further about it that day.

In response to my call of November 25, personnel from Arlington Glass

came to the White House garage that same day to replace the

windshield. The Arlington Glass personnel advised Morgan Geis and me

that removal would cause additional damage to the windshield but Geis

told them to go ahead and remove it anyway. The Arlington Glass

personnel did remove it by putting their feet against the inside of

the windshield and pushing it out. In doing so, additional cracks

formed (downward to the bottom of the windshield). A Mr. Davis of the

Secret Service then took the windshield and put it in the stockroom

under lock and key and I have not seen it since.

That same day, November 25, I tried to clean the blood spot on the

carpet with only moderate success. Late that afternoon I called Hess

and Eisenhardt who agreed to send new carpeting including masking and

binding. It was also that day that Morgan Geis called my attention to

a dent in the chrome topping of the windshield at a point just above

the rear view mirror and asked why I hadn't fixed it while I was at

it. I told him that my experience with chrome had been that in trying

to remove a dent of that size lead only to additional marks that

further marred the trim. In addition, the dent is not visible when the

top is on the unit.

On November 26th, late in the afternoon after I had left, the carpet

masking and binding arrived at the garage from Hess and Eisenhardt.

When I got to the garage on the 27th and was told that the carpeting

material was in, I contacted Morgan Geis who arranged with the White

House upholsery man to receive the metal piece containing the carpet,

remove the old carpeting, replace it with the new carpet, and return

the piect to me for reinstallation in the "Bubbletop." This

upholsterer did not complete the job until late Friday afternoon the

29th.

On the morning of December 2nd, the re-carpeted piece was delivered to

me by a Secret Service agent named Davis and I then reinstalled it.

Also on the 2nd of December I noticed that the two lap robes had a few

blood spots on them, but, more than that, were soiled from handling

and required cleaning. The White House chauffeurs were detailed to

take the lap robes to Fort Myer for cleaning. These persons remained

with the lap robes until they were cleaned and returned the same day.

I think this represents a complete account of changes made in the

"Bubbletop" since November 22.

F.V. Ferguson

New photo of second windshield on limousine today in Dearborn, MI. NARA

doc. 180-10120-10021,Photo of SS100X at Parkland with bucket, CE353,

photo of SS100X today, Jackie's WC testimony, Altgens windshield,

info on "22 November 1963" at my website.

http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html

Photos of sites relevant to Mozart's life in Salzburg and Paris at my

linked Mozart site.

F

SORRY THE LINK IS BROKEN I THINK IT IS IN THE MARSH COLLECTION UNDER THE LIMO HEADING...ON KEN RAHN'S SITE

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/ DARN THE LINK TO HIS HOME PAGE FINALLY CAME UP AND IS BROKEN ALSO... ^_^:lol::o:) BUT IS ENABLED GOT ONE RIGHT SHEESH..... :o

I CANNOT GET INTO HIS SITE...THE GREMLIN IS AT IT AGAIN...BLAH...

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Limousine/windshield.txt

Bernice;

So that people are not confused where Ferguson stated he drove the limo to Dearborn, Michigan on December 20, 1963 and then on to Cincinnati on December 24, 1963 is in the HSCA Chronology of the Limo. Do you have that? There are many points here. Note: " Examination of the windshield disclosed no

perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from

the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror."

Nobody has described damage there.

Also note that the windshield was allegedly placed under lock and key on November 25, 1963. This part of the memo is to state the limo and windshield was in Washington that day, when Whitaker says that is in Dearborn, The Wh Garage logs show no contact with the limo by anyone on the 25th,. Arlington Glass is in the WH Garage logs as replacing the windshield on the 26th. However, there are even problems in that, some of which I have not yet discussed. For some other problems with this memo please refer to my discussion in Murder in Dealey Plaza. Hess and Eisenhardt show no records of carpeting being shipped to Washington.

Best,

Doug

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Hi Martin

Not quite sure what to make of this yet but just to check if I am looking at the right thing the lady in question would be Lady 9 rather than Lady 8 wouldn't it ?

Thanks

David

Hi David. Thanks for your response. :)

To be honest, one of the hardest part to uncover in Altgens was this odd shape above the steering wheel and Jackies right hand.

Croft was such a huge help to find the solution.

It was actually a bag, Lady 9 is carrying in the crook of her arm.

Lady 9 is dressed in white and many parts of her a visible in Altgens. Even her elbows which i tinted in pink.

altgenscroftlady10bag.jpg

But the crucial POI (point of interest) belongs to Lady 8. Anthony Marsh says it is her pocket we see in Altgens.

That claim doesn't convince me.

Can you see it?

best to you

Martin

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Hi Martin

Not quite sure what to make of this yet but just to check if I am looking at the right thing the lady in question would be Lady 9 rather than Lady 8 wouldn't it ?

Thanks

David

I have the same problem identifying the swirl with the proper spectator in the background. Like you, I can't tell if it is Lady 8 or Lady 9. As far as I recall, Anthony Marsh pointed out that the socalled "spiral nebula" was a swirl in the fabric of a woman's dress. I don't recall him saying anything about a "pocket."

I just took a magnifying glass to the best copy I have of Altgens #6. It looks to me like the "spiral nebula" is some fabric in the dress of Lady #9 that is tbetween the camera and something Lady #8 is holding. I wonder if any other photos would provide views of Lady #8 and #9?

Josiah Thompson

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Have either of you changed your opinions about the credibility of Nick Prencipe? If not, what questions do you still have. I have many communications from the late Nick Prencipe and it is likely I can respond to most questions in his own words.

Hi Doug,

I thank you for sending me the audio CD of your first interview with Mr. Prencipe. I have listened to it twice. I do believe whenever Mr. Prencipe's story can be told in his own words it is best, as it makes it quite clear what he says happened ... and when ... and where.

A little chronology ...

March 2000: Pamela McElwain-Brown conducted a phone interview with Prencipe; I do not have the exact date, nor have I heard that interview.

April 16, 2000: You interviewed Prencipe by phone, and that is the interview you recently sent me.

At the time of your interview, Prencipe spoke well of Pamela and did not seem to have any issues with her regarding her interview with him, anything he had told her, etc.

In fact, you referred to Pamela's interview when you were speaking to Prencipe, telling him you had listened it, as I recall. I was surprised that you rather led with what you knew he had told Pamela rather than just asking him to tell you what happened the evening of the assassination. And while the topic of him seeing Greer that evening, having the conversation and then what he says he did at the WH garage later that evening is just a very few minutes of your hour long conversation, he confirmed to you what he had told Pamela about seeing, shaking hands with and speaking to Bill Greer on West Executive Ave the evening of the assassination. Prencipe does refer to it as having happened that evening by saying, "Greer said to me that night." He also repeated that Greer had told that shots had been coming at them from all directions, with a shot even coming through the windshield. Prencipe also confirmed that it was sometime that night .... Nov 22nd ... that he went to the WH garage and looked at the limo windshield.

He told you that when he went to the WHG to see the limo, there were "people milling all around" in there "all over the place"; he said, "As far as I am concerned it was a clean hole." [in the windshield] .... he also said "it was quite possible that there was fragmentation." ... and he said "he only got a glance at it" [ said this several times in your conversation] and something about that being because he had to get that tarp he'd pulled up to see the "hole" back down. He also made these comments:

"I didn't say it was a bullet hole, I said there was a hole in the windshield," and when you questioned him about that, he said, "It looked like a bullet hole." You did elicit a 100% confidence level statement from him that he had seen a perforating hole. When it came to *where* on the windshield he saw that hole .... and he placed it low on the passenger side, "a couple inches above the frame" [from the bottom of the windshield]... I was frankly amazed that instead of repeating the confidence level exercise without infecting him, you instead informed him that other witnesses had placed the hole they saw elsewhere and asked him if he could possibly be in error about the location. Another exchange was when you asked him the size of the hole. He thought for a few seconds and then said that the hole was about the size of his little finger, "like a pencil." And your response was, not a question, but a statement, "A little bigger than a pencil." And he agreed.

I have seen different versions of the garage scene .... nobody there, Greer & Kellerman there, several people there, pulling the tarp up alone vs along with someone else, etc. Which is troubling, but is not the prime problem with his story.

I thought something Prencipe said right at the end of your conversation was interesting. He said something about how could anybody think Greer drove the body from Andrews to Bethesda since we know that the body was flown by helicopter to Walter Reed and a motorcade later went from there. This tells me a couple of things ....

- perhaps Pamela had already mentioned a time conflict to him involving Greer

- he thought it was not a problem because he clearly believed he knew the body had gone by helicopter

- he may have made this last minute comment/quasi question to see what you would say about that, but you sort of yeah-yeahed him and said nothing about Greer driving the ambulance from Andrews to Bethesda on national television. I don't know that you were even aware of that at the time.

July 2000: Prencipe is not happy with Pamela any longer, expresses frustration to her in emails, on which you were bcc'd ... which were given to Bernice at some point in time and posted here on the Ed Forum in July 2008.

Those emails are important ... and give us the exact details of what he first claimed ... and show us that when he realized there was some sort of a timing problem with Greer, the details of his story began to grow a bit vague and change.

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamelam@xxxxxxxxx

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0400

Subject: Re: reply

Message-ID: <20000707.080612.-3697521.1.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I try to be as helpful as I can, but I am a bit upset at some of the

choice of words I note from time to time. When you state that you will

follow up and see what makes sense, I dont follow this line of thinking.

I knew the limo when I saw it, I sure saw it many times and even sat in

it. There was someone else in the process of lifing the tarp from its

partially lifted position, as I recall. And I did see a bullet hole, so

if there was a bullet hole, or damage to another one of the cars, there

is a new track to follow.

I do not remember what time I got home that night, or the next morning, I

have no idea what time it was.

My interest in ALL available facts in this are similar to others, I weigh

whatever I see, hear or read for my own judgements, something I have been

doing for the most part of my 84 years.

I was not aware that you were writing a book on this. so I can wait for

some the queries I made.

Regards

NICK

Excerpt from an e-mail from Rich DellaRosa, posted on the yahoo discussion group by Fetzer, April 8, 2009:

In this matter, I refer to Nick Principe, a DC police captain assigned

to the White House since the days of FDR until his retirement. This

was a man who had an office on West Executive Dr and who had more or

less free access to the White House and the White House garage. It

was Nick who drove the lead car in JFK's funeral procession.

In my many exchanges I found Nick to be an honest, upstanding guy who

wished to tell us what he knew and proceeded to do so. He was brought

to our attention by Irv Heineman who was a forum member for years. I

exchanged emails with Nick right up until about a week before his

death. Nick also assisted Doug Weldon in his research.

Nick went to the White House garage when the limo was returned from

Dallas. He reported that the car was pretty shot up. He noted a

through and through hole in the windshield, the dent in the chrome

strip on the dash board, etc. Nick assured me that the windshield had

a hole large enough to pass a pencil through it. (I seem to recall

that he actually did so, but I no longer have that email due to a disk

crash years ago). Nick also indicated that from the beveling in the

laminated windshield he knew whatever made the hole was traveling from

the outside in.

Nick was on friendly terms with many of the SS White House detail. As

he viewed the limo, he asked Greer and Kellerman what had happened in

Dallas. It was Kellerman who replied "Nick, they were shooting at us

from all directions!" And further "That it was like a damned shooting

gallery in Dallas." Greer agreed.

This last is hearsay from Rich DellaRosa, who says Nick related this info to him, and that

they spoke just a week before Prencipe passed away. But the first two, above, were written

by Prencipe himself. I think you posted an e or comment from Prencipe where he noted that

up to midnight would be that evening to him. Unfortunately, up til midnight does not fit within

the time box he himself set out in the first email, above, nor would it resolve the time conflict

his story has with Greer.

Greer, Kellerman, Jackie and the casket were all on AF-1 which arrived at Andrews at

6pm (going with round numbers here).

The C-130 carrying the limo arrived at Andrews at 8pm. By 9pm the limo had already been

escorted to the WH garage, had been parked in a bay and covered with a tarp.

So Prencipe himself says he saw Greer on West Executive Ave sometime after 6 pm, but before 9pm,

more likely before 8 pm as Prencipe said he listened to the transmissions about

having the limo escorted back to the WH garage after he spoke to Greer.

Greer's whereabouts are known for that entire time period and beyond that night. For much of Prencipe's critical

time period, Greer was on national television helping unload the casket from the plane, helping load it into the

ambulance, and then driving that ambulance in a well televised procession to Bethesda. Then helping unload the casket at the morgue loading dock at 8pm and being present at the autopsy, not just by his own account but by others as well, all night. He then drove JFK to the WH for the last time in the wee hours, after 0330, on 11-23.

Are you familiar with the report/interview introduced during Greer's WC testimony ... an interview of Greer and Kellerman conducted by S & O on 11-22 ... S & O took advantage of having the 2 SS agents from the limo there at Bethesda that night and interviewed them during that time.

You had a very congenial conversation with Prencipe. He clearly enjoyed telling war stories from his days on the park police, which is fine. You both seemed to enjoy exchanging ideas on the assassination ... and Prencipe clearly had done some reading on assorted theories. But no matter how sincere someone sounds, alarm bells have to go off when their story just flat out conflicts with known facts. This was the first time you had interviewed Prencipe, yet, at the end of the conversation, you told him you found him credible ... did you not know the evidence about what Greer was doing that night, and without knowing that info, how could you conclude Prencipe's story was credible? Prencipe made Greer a central point in his story.

Have I changed my position on Prencipe's credibility? No, I have not. His story, as he himself framed it, is in direct conflict with the documented whereabouts and activities of Greer that night. I don't see any wiggle room for anyone to be able to consider his story, as he himself told it, as that of a credible witness.

By the way, did you ever follow up on the death of Greer's wife? Prencipe told you he and Greer would talk, about how Greer's wife had cancer, and how Greer had told him when she had died. You were clearly taken aback by that, noting that Greer had preceded his wife in death. When were you able to confirm Ethel Greer died?

Bests regards, sorry it took me so long to respond to the Prencipe question ...

Barb :-)

Barb:

As I e-mailed you I somehow missed this posting and I apologize. You wrote a very thought out response and I would not have ignored it. For those following the posts my writings (typing errors and all) are sometimes passionate, )as I knew many of these witnesses and I deeply care about this) but they should not be construed as hostile towars anyone.. As I stated before I respect you for engaging in this exchange and again I would be willing to address any others supporting your article. The first point I would like to make is that I had read postings by the late Nick Prencipe, had a copy of Pamela's interview with him, and so was not unaware of things he had said before I spoke with him for the first time.. I tried to be very careful and while I asked him if he may have been mistaken about something I told him not to answer differently if that was what his answer was. In a quick response, where I suggested the hole was bigger than a pencil, it was simply because most men's little finger is bigger than a pencil. When I later saw a picture of Nick it was very obvious that his little finger would have been noticeably larger than a pencil.

I told you that I was not going to try to enhance anyone's account and I will not do so here. What is not unusual to me and I am sure to Jerry is that small details may become hazy such as time and circumstance (see Elizabeth Lofton on eyewitness testimony) but significant details will become embedded in one's mind, i.e., the hole in the windshield of the vehicle . Even the location may become fuzzy if not written down and of course the longer one has to view something the better the memory is. That is why I find it so corroborative that the two people who had the opportunity to view the hole for the longest period of time, Taylor and Whitaker, independently described the hole in the same location. Let me utilize an example. Can you tell me what time you celebrated your 30th birthday, where you were if you were at a restaurant, etc., and who was there? If a plane crashed on your birthday it may help you to remember where you were at but would you still remember the times, except maybe afternoon, evening, etc., or would it even help you to remember everyone who was there? Your 30th is also a milestone. Tell me about your 28th birthday.

As I mentioned at the onset and my later post I try to corroborate people's accounts and what other people thought of them and their character, their reputation for being truthful,etc.. F irst, of all, it is verifiable that Nick was who he said he was and that he was on duty that day. I was able to speak with someone who knew Nick well back then. His name was Dick Giordono. He is mentioned in Manchester's "The Death of a President." Tragically Dick was in Dallas on Air Force One when JFK was killed and was in Los Angeles with RFK when he was killed. He remembered Nick talking about something and the limousine and that many of them knew Greer well. Evaluate it however you desire.

Next, I will let Nick speak for himself:

The limo was covered, but the front part over the hood and fenders was

> not completely covering--and this is to the best of my reccollection. I

> cant answer the question as to the plexiglass . I have no idea whether

> Bill talked with anyone else and whether they would still be alive.

> As far as what I have read that he testified to before the WC--It

> surprises me !!!

> I dont know if Greer had anything with him, was holding anything, or how

> he got to the WH. All I know is that he WAS there and that I DID talk

> with him.

> Let me make this observation, you are relying on reports that leave a lot

> of unanswered questions and we dont really know if they are true,

> considering all the contoversy that continues to be posted.

> I am in contact with some of my old men and I am still looking for facts

> that may be of importance and not hearsay. I could care less about

> whatthe SS documents say about where Greer was at any given time, I saw

> him as I have related and I talked with him as I have related .

>

> Nick

>

>> Doug

>> I am sure that (name delleted by me)will convince those who are of the same theory,

>> to begin with.

>> I note that she takes things out of contex in that she keeps saying that

>> I talked to Greer early in the evening.

>> I never said that and incidentally, the evening runs to midnight. I dont

>> really know exactly what time it was. If I looked at my watch that

>> night, I knew the time, but that was a long time ago.

>> I will also say, I have been in theW.H. many times and in the SS and WH

>> garages many times and NEVER was I EVER asked to log in. She just cant

>> believe that I guess.

>> She seems to get more and more frustrated with time.

>> Bill Greer, as I remember reading, did change his story, and eventually

>> came up with all the shots coming from the rear--probably to keek in line

>> with the Warren commission procedure. Who knows what went thru his head

>> then--and later. I wont change my story, some of the facts are dimmed a

>> bit, but basic facts are still the same. I will keep you advised of

>> anything new I turn up.

>> Have a great holiday.

>>

>> Regards Nick

... (first paragraph omitted because it refers to a researcher)

>> With regards to the time element that apparently concerns you--you can be

>> assured of one thing and I would testify before God as to its veracity.

>> I DID SEE GREER AT THE WHITE HOUSE--WEST EXECUTIVE AVE. AND I DID HAVE

>> CONVERSATION WITH HIM AS I HAVE STATED.

>> As far as what is called evening --late evening or whatever--We put in a

>> long day and night also and I was not checking my watch, nor did I have

>> any reason to document my movements.

>> I have been in both the secret service garage and the white house garage

>> many times. I have never signed in or out in either place , any number of

>> my men and have visited there many times and did not sign in either.

>> The visit that evening was based on what Bill had described and all the

>> little details you seem sure of are correct or incorrect--who knows--and

>> who said what--based on what. I WAS THERE.

>> So I wont push it any further, other than to verify what I have stated

>> before

>> Good luck to you

>>

>> Nick

>

Doug

>> That was an interesting letter you forwarded to me

>> I need to respond to one little portion of it--and only to clarify a past

>> statement that apparently has been either mis-interpreted, or re-stated.

>> I am quite aware that Bill Greer was at Bethesda that night. But there

>> came a time when he arrived on west executive ave. between the Executive

>> office and the west wing of the W.H.

>> This is where I was, most of the evening, it was a temporary command

>> poat.

>> I went to greet Bill and this is when he stated that they sure had

>> "missed You Guys" today.

>> When I conversed with him a bit more, he related that "bullets were

>> coming from everywhere--one came thru the winshield and almost got me".

>>

>> Based on this and my Police curiosity, I went to the W>H> garage, where I

>> verified what he had related.

>> THIS IS GOSPEL-----I STAND BEHIND IT PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>

>> Nick

>Doug

> Who, in your opinion, is this "Trojan Horse" For the record, I said

> from that first night that there was a hole in the winshield. I have

> repeated it any number of times amongst my fellow officers, during

> discussion and never made any bones about it or hear anybody rebut it.

> It just happened that during a conversation with Irv, who I have kbown

> for years, I mentioned it and thats how I got involved in this. NOTHING

> HAS REALLY CHANGED.

>

>

> Nick

>> Doug

>> Thanks--getting along pretty good

>> Pics you asked for are in the mail

>> Monk had posted that I was with Bill Greer at the white house garage when

>> I saw the hole

>> That was incorrect and I am sure that you have it on our interview:

>> When I saw Bill Greer--for the first time after he came back from Dallas,

>> he was standing on West executive ave. between the White house and the

>> Ex. Office bldg.

>> I was there most of the evening keeping up with and getting things done

>> when necessary--we had a constant communication with the detail at AAFB

>> I went to him and we shook hands, at which time he stated that "we sure

>> missed you guys today" also that bullets were coming from everywhere and

>> that one had come thru the front windshield.

>> Based on this, when I got a break later, I jumped on my motor and went to

>> the SS garage

>> There were a number of persons around and activity--I simply walked in

>> and up to the limo that was backed into its stall--the cover was

>> partially drawn back and I pulled it back to a point where I saw the T

>> and T hole. I dont think I even put the cover back--maybe--but the hole

>> I DID SEE

>>

>> Nick

> Over the years--many--I have met people from all walks of life and I

>> am a pretty good listener and observer.

>> When some have a particular interest or goal in mind--many things that

>> are pertinent--but present an opposite version or opinion--there is

>> always an inclination to avoid what is evident, or to attempt todiscredit

>> it.

>> I have always spoken exactly what I feel and to whomever I am addressing

>> and I will never change. I have ralked with Presidents and in one case,

>> gave one a scorching he did not expect--and apologized for it--this is

>> the truth.

>> >From day one, I have talked with fellow officers and other people, about

>> talking with Greer the night of the event.

>> I have not changed anything I ever stated, and nver will, even under

>> oath. That is my position.

>> As far as remembering who was where and what time it was and other

>> confirmations, its been a long time and I never put too much emphasis on

>> them, but the facts stated remain AS IS AND WERE.

>>

>> Thanks, good luck Nick

>

>

>

>

>

I cannot speak for Rich's posting but I have everything concerning Nick documented. There is much more. I am surprised that you are concerned that someone might reflect and modify some minor details after 37 years but then on the other hand you can accept Taylor totally changing his mind after giving an account TWICE or that everything Dudman wrote or said can be changed by a conversation at a dinner table where we don't know exactly what the conversation was? You heard Nick. He had a powerful no-nonsense personality that I think shows in these e-mails. Nobody was going to tell him anything.. Also, again, what motivation would he have to fabricate his story? What did he get out of it? I don't recall reading anything about him in Time, Newsweek, or the Wall Street Journal. Do you think it won him acclaim on a small forum? It, as I mentioned before, caused him to get his character questioned as has been raised here. He also spentt a llong, distinquished career as a police officer and has been photographed with Presidents. Also, his account happens to fit perfectly with the facts and circumstances and if a bullet came through the windshield and almost hit Greer, and again assuming the sniper was trying to hit Kennedy the hole would have been in the same location described by Taylor and Whitaker. (in the area of the spiral nebulae) Coincidence? Also Greer told a different story before the WC and was photographed laughing as he came out of his testimony. He later told his friends that there was no damage to the windshield. You, of course, have your personal right to weigh the credibility of any witness as you desire. I do believe, imo, that an objective person would find him credible, but go ahead and eliminate him. How do you eliminate all the others? I thank you and I am sure Nick would have thanked you for listening to him. I did everything I could do to verify his account and credibility. I, too, asked him the hard questions. I am satisfied.

Doug Weldon

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Have either of you changed your opinions about the credibility of Nick Prencipe? If not, what questions do you still have. I have many communications from the late Nick Prencipe and it is likely I can respond to most questions in his own words.

Hi Doug,

I thank you for sending me the audio CD of your first interview with Mr. Prencipe. I have listened to it twice. I do believe whenever Mr. Prencipe's story can be told in his own words it is best, as it makes it quite clear what he says happened ... and when ... and where.

A little chronology ...

March 2000: Pamela McElwain-Brown conducted a phone interview with Prencipe; I do not have the exact date, nor have I heard that interview.

April 16, 2000: You interviewed Prencipe by phone, and that is the interview you recently sent me.

At the time of your interview, Prencipe spoke well of Pamela and did not seem to have any issues with her regarding her interview with him, anything he had told her, etc.

In fact, you referred to Pamela's interview when you were speaking to Prencipe, telling him you had listened it, as I recall. I was surprised that you rather led with what you knew he had told Pamela rather than just asking him to tell you what happened the evening of the assassination. And while the topic of him seeing Greer that evening, having the conversation and then what he says he did at the WH garage later that evening is just a very few minutes of your hour long conversation, he confirmed to you what he had told Pamela about seeing, shaking hands with and speaking to Bill Greer on West Executive Ave the evening of the assassination. Prencipe does refer to it as having happened that evening by saying, "Greer said to me that night." He also repeated that Greer had told that shots had been coming at them from all directions, with a shot even coming through the windshield. Prencipe also confirmed that it was sometime that night .... Nov 22nd ... that he went to the WH garage and looked at the limo windshield.

He told you that when he went to the WHG to see the limo, there were "people milling all around" in there "all over the place"; he said, "As far as I am concerned it was a clean hole." [in the windshield] .... he also said "it was quite possible that there was fragmentation." ... and he said "he only got a glance at it" [ said this several times in your conversation] and something about that being because he had to get that tarp he'd pulled up to see the "hole" back down. He also made these comments:

"I didn't say it was a bullet hole, I said there was a hole in the windshield," and when you questioned him about that, he said, "It looked like a bullet hole." You did elicit a 100% confidence level statement from him that he had seen a perforating hole. When it came to *where* on the windshield he saw that hole .... and he placed it low on the passenger side, "a couple inches above the frame" [from the bottom of the windshield]... I was frankly amazed that instead of repeating the confidence level exercise without infecting him, you instead informed him that other witnesses had placed the hole they saw elsewhere and asked him if he could possibly be in error about the location. Another exchange was when you asked him the size of the hole. He thought for a few seconds and then said that the hole was about the size of his little finger, "like a pencil." And your response was, not a question, but a statement, "A little bigger than a pencil." And he agreed.

I have seen different versions of the garage scene .... nobody there, Greer & Kellerman there, several people there, pulling the tarp up alone vs along with someone else, etc. Which is troubling, but is not the prime problem with his story.

I thought something Prencipe said right at the end of your conversation was interesting. He said something about how could anybody think Greer drove the body from Andrews to Bethesda since we know that the body was flown by helicopter to Walter Reed and a motorcade later went from there. This tells me a couple of things ....

- perhaps Pamela had already mentioned a time conflict to him involving Greer

- he thought it was not a problem because he clearly believed he knew the body had gone by helicopter

- he may have made this last minute comment/quasi question to see what you would say about that, but you sort of yeah-yeahed him and said nothing about Greer driving the ambulance from Andrews to Bethesda on national television. I don't know that you were even aware of that at the time.

July 2000: Prencipe is not happy with Pamela any longer, expresses frustration to her in emails, on which you were bcc'd ... which were given to Bernice at some point in time and posted here on the Ed Forum in July 2008.

Those emails are important ... and give us the exact details of what he first claimed ... and show us that when he realized there was some sort of a timing problem with Greer, the details of his story began to grow a bit vague and change.

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamelam@xxxxxxxxx

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0400

Subject: Re: reply

Message-ID: <20000707.080612.-3697521.1.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I try to be as helpful as I can, but I am a bit upset at some of the

choice of words I note from time to time. When you state that you will

follow up and see what makes sense, I dont follow this line of thinking.

I knew the limo when I saw it, I sure saw it many times and even sat in

it. There was someone else in the process of lifing the tarp from its

partially lifted position, as I recall. And I did see a bullet hole, so

if there was a bullet hole, or damage to another one of the cars, there

is a new track to follow.

I do not remember what time I got home that night, or the next morning, I

have no idea what time it was.

My interest in ALL available facts in this are similar to others, I weigh

whatever I see, hear or read for my own judgements, something I have been

doing for the most part of my 84 years.

I was not aware that you were writing a book on this. so I can wait for

some the queries I made.

Regards

NICK

Excerpt from an e-mail from Rich DellaRosa, posted on the yahoo discussion group by Fetzer, April 8, 2009:

In this matter, I refer to Nick Principe, a DC police captain assigned

to the White House since the days of FDR until his retirement. This

was a man who had an office on West Executive Dr and who had more or

less free access to the White House and the White House garage. It

was Nick who drove the lead car in JFK's funeral procession.

In my many exchanges I found Nick to be an honest, upstanding guy who

wished to tell us what he knew and proceeded to do so. He was brought

to our attention by Irv Heineman who was a forum member for years. I

exchanged emails with Nick right up until about a week before his

death. Nick also assisted Doug Weldon in his research.

Nick went to the White House garage when the limo was returned from

Dallas. He reported that the car was pretty shot up. He noted a

through and through hole in the windshield, the dent in the chrome

strip on the dash board, etc. Nick assured me that the windshield had

a hole large enough to pass a pencil through it. (I seem to recall

that he actually did so, but I no longer have that email due to a disk

crash years ago). Nick also indicated that from the beveling in the

laminated windshield he knew whatever made the hole was traveling from

the outside in.

Nick was on friendly terms with many of the SS White House detail. As

he viewed the limo, he asked Greer and Kellerman what had happened in

Dallas. It was Kellerman who replied "Nick, they were shooting at us

from all directions!" And further "That it was like a damned shooting

gallery in Dallas." Greer agreed.

This last is hearsay from Rich DellaRosa, who says Nick related this info to him, and that

they spoke just a week before Prencipe passed away. But the first two, above, were written

by Prencipe himself. I think you posted an e or comment from Prencipe where he noted that

up to midnight would be that evening to him. Unfortunately, up til midnight does not fit within

the time box he himself set out in the first email, above, nor would it resolve the time conflict

his story has with Greer.

Greer, Kellerman, Jackie and the casket were all on AF-1 which arrived at Andrews at

6pm (going with round numbers here).

The C-130 carrying the limo arrived at Andrews at 8pm. By 9pm the limo had already been

escorted to the WH garage, had been parked in a bay and covered with a tarp.

So Prencipe himself says he saw Greer on West Executive Ave sometime after 6 pm, but before 9pm,

more likely before 8 pm as Prencipe said he listened to the transmissions about

having the limo escorted back to the WH garage after he spoke to Greer.

Greer's whereabouts are known for that entire time period and beyond that night. For much of Prencipe's critical

time period, Greer was on national television helping unload the casket from the plane, helping load it into the

ambulance, and then driving that ambulance in a well televised procession to Bethesda. Then helping unload the casket at the morgue loading dock at 8pm and being present at the autopsy, not just by his own account but by others as well, all night. He then drove JFK to the WH for the last time in the wee hours, after 0330, on 11-23.

Are you familiar with the report/interview introduced during Greer's WC testimony ... an interview of Greer and Kellerman conducted by S & O on 11-22 ... S & O took advantage of having the 2 SS agents from the limo there at Bethesda that night and interviewed them during that time.

You had a very congenial conversation with Prencipe. He clearly enjoyed telling war stories from his days on the park police, which is fine. You both seemed to enjoy exchanging ideas on the assassination ... and Prencipe clearly had done some reading on assorted theories. But no matter how sincere someone sounds, alarm bells have to go off when their story just flat out conflicts with known facts. This was the first time you had interviewed Prencipe, yet, at the end of the conversation, you told him you found him credible ... did you not know the evidence about what Greer was doing that night, and without knowing that info, how could you conclude Prencipe's story was credible? Prencipe made Greer a central point in his story.

Have I changed my position on Prencipe's credibility? No, I have not. His story, as he himself framed it, is in direct conflict with the documented whereabouts and activities of Greer that night. I don't see any wiggle room for anyone to be able to consider his story, as he himself told it, as that of a credible witness.

By the way, did you ever follow up on the death of Greer's wife? Prencipe told you he and Greer would talk, about how Greer's wife had cancer, and how Greer had told him when she had died. You were clearly taken aback by that, noting that Greer had preceded his wife in death. When were you able to confirm Ethel Greer died?

Bests regards, sorry it took me so long to respond to the Prencipe question ...

Barb :-)

Barb:

As I e-mailed you I somehow missed this posting and I apologize. You wrote a very thought out response and I would not have ignored it. For those following the posts my writings (typing errors and all) are sometimes passionate, )as I knew many of these witnesses and I deeply care about this) but they should not be construed as hostile towars anyone.. As I stated before I respect you for engaging in this exchange and again I would be willing to address any others supporting your article. The first point I would like to make is that I had read postings by the late Nick Prencipe, had a copy of Pamela's interview with him, and so was not unaware of things he had said before I spoke with him for the first time.. I tried to be very careful and while I asked him if he may have been mistaken about something I told him not to answer differently if that was what his answer was. In a quick response, where I suggested the hole was bigger than a pencil, it was simply because most men's little finger is bigger than a pencil. When I later saw a picture of Nick it was very obvious that his little finger would have been noticeably larger than a pencil.

I told you that I was not going to try to enhance anyone's account and I will not do so here. What is not unusual to me and I am sure to Jerry is that small details may become hazy such as time and circumstance (see Elizabeth Lofton on eyewitness testimony) but significant details will become embedded in one's mind, i.e., the hole in the windshield of the vehicle . Even the location may become fuzzy if not written down and of course the longer one has to view something the better the memory is. That is why I find it so corroborative that the two people who had the opportunity to view the hole for the longest period of time, Taylor and Whitaker, independently described the hole in the same location. Let me utilize an example. Can you tell me what time you celebrated your 30th birthday, where you were if you were at a restaurant, etc., and who was there? If a plane crashed on your birthday it may help you to remember where you were at but would you still remember the times, except maybe afternoon, evening, etc., or would it even help you to remember everyone who was there? Your 30th is also a milestone. Tell me about your 28th birthday.

As I mentioned at the onset and my later post I try to corroborate people's accounts and what other people thought of them and their character, their reputation for being truthful,etc.. F irst, of all, it is verifiable that Nick was who he said he was and that he was on duty that day. I was able to speak with someone who knew Nick well back then. His name was Dick Giordono. He is mentioned in Manchester's "The Death of a President." Tragically Dick was in Dallas on Air Force One when JFK was killed and was in Los Angeles with RFK when he was killed. He remembered Nick talking about something and the limousine and that many of them knew Greer well. Evaluate it however you desire.

Next, I will let Nick speak for himself:

The limo was covered, but the front part over the hood and fenders was

> not completely covering--and this is to the best of my reccollection. I

> cant answer the question as to the plexiglass . I have no idea whether

> Bill talked with anyone else and whether they would still be alive.

> As far as what I have read that he testified to before the WC--It

> surprises me !!!

> I dont know if Greer had anything with him, was holding anything, or how

> he got to the WH. All I know is that he WAS there and that I DID talk

> with him.

> Let me make this observation, you are relying on reports that leave a lot

> of unanswered questions and we dont really know if they are true,

> considering all the contoversy that continues to be posted.

> I am in contact with some of my old men and I am still looking for facts

> that may be of importance and not hearsay. I could care less about

> whatthe SS documents say about where Greer was at any given time, I saw

> him as I have related and I talked with him as I have related .

>

> Nick

>

>> Doug

>> I am sure that (name delleted by me)will convince those who are of the same theory,

>> to begin with.

>> I note that she takes things out of contex in that she keeps saying that

>> I talked to Greer early in the evening.

>> I never said that and incidentally, the evening runs to midnight. I dont

>> really know exactly what time it was. If I looked at my watch that

>> night, I knew the time, but that was a long time ago.

>> I will also say, I have been in theW.H. many times and in the SS and WH

>> garages many times and NEVER was I EVER asked to log in. She just cant

>> believe that I guess.

>> She seems to get more and more frustrated with time.

>> Bill Greer, as I remember reading, did change his story, and eventually

>> came up with all the shots coming from the rear--probably to keek in line

>> with the Warren commission procedure. Who knows what went thru his head

>> then--and later. I wont change my story, some of the facts are dimmed a

>> bit, but basic facts are still the same. I will keep you advised of

>> anything new I turn up.

>> Have a great holiday.

>>

>> Regards Nick

... (first paragraph omitted because it refers to a researcher)

>> With regards to the time element that apparently concerns you--you can be

>> assured of one thing and I would testify before God as to its veracity.

>> I DID SEE GREER AT THE WHITE HOUSE--WEST EXECUTIVE AVE. AND I DID HAVE

>> CONVERSATION WITH HIM AS I HAVE STATED.

>> As far as what is called evening --late evening or whatever--We put in a

>> long day and night also and I was not checking my watch, nor did I have

>> any reason to document my movements.

>> I have been in both the secret service garage and the white house garage

>> many times. I have never signed in or out in either place , any number of

>> my men and have visited there many times and did not sign in either.

>> The visit that evening was based on what Bill had described and all the

>> little details you seem sure of are correct or incorrect--who knows--and

>> who said what--based on what. I WAS THERE.

>> So I wont push it any further, other than to verify what I have stated

>> before

>> Good luck to you

>>

>> Nick

>

Doug

>> That was an interesting letter you forwarded to me

>> I need to respond to one little portion of it--and only to clarify a past

>> statement that apparently has been either mis-interpreted, or re-stated.

>> I am quite aware that Bill Greer was at Bethesda that night. But there

>> came a time when he arrived on west executive ave. between the Executive

>> office and the west wing of the W.H.

>> This is where I was, most of the evening, it was a temporary command

>> poat.

>> I went to greet Bill and this is when he stated that they sure had

>> "missed You Guys" today.

>> When I conversed with him a bit more, he related that "bullets were

>> coming from everywhere--one came thru the winshield and almost got me".

>>

>> Based on this and my Police curiosity, I went to the W>H> garage, where I

>> verified what he had related.

>> THIS IS GOSPEL-----I STAND BEHIND IT PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>

>> Nick

>Doug

> Who, in your opinion, is this "Trojan Horse" For the record, I said

> from that first night that there was a hole in the winshield. I have

> repeated it any number of times amongst my fellow officers, during

> discussion and never made any bones about it or hear anybody rebut it.

> It just happened that during a conversation with Irv, who I have kbown

> for years, I mentioned it and thats how I got involved in this. NOTHING

> HAS REALLY CHANGED.

>

>

> Nick

>> Doug

>> Thanks--getting along pretty good

>> Pics you asked for are in the mail

>> Monk had posted that I was with Bill Greer at the white house garage when

>> I saw the hole

>> That was incorrect and I am sure that you have it on our interview:

>> When I saw Bill Greer--for the first time after he came back from Dallas,

>> he was standing on West executive ave. between the White house and the

>> Ex. Office bldg.

>> I was there most of the evening keeping up with and getting things done

>> when necessary--we had a constant communication with the detail at AAFB

>> I went to him and we shook hands, at which time he stated that "we sure

>> missed you guys today" also that bullets were coming from everywhere and

>> that one had come thru the front windshield.

>> Based on this, when I got a break later, I jumped on my motor and went to

>> the SS garage

>> There were a number of persons around and activity--I simply walked in

>> and up to the limo that was backed into its stall--the cover was

>> partially drawn back and I pulled it back to a point where I saw the T

>> and T hole. I dont think I even put the cover back--maybe--but the hole

>> I DID SEE

>>

>> Nick

> Over the years--many--I have met people from all walks of life and I

>> am a pretty good listener and observer.

>> When some have a particular interest or goal in mind--many things that

>> are pertinent--but present an opposite version or opinion--there is

>> always an inclination to avoid what is evident, or to attempt todiscredit

>> it.

>> I have always spoken exactly what I feel and to whomever I am addressing

>> and I will never change. I have ralked with Presidents and in one case,

>> gave one a scorching he did not expect--and apologized for it--this is

>> the truth.

>> >From day one, I have talked with fellow officers and other people, about

>> talking with Greer the night of the event.

>> I have not changed anything I ever stated, and nver will, even under

>> oath. That is my position.

>> As far as remembering who was where and what time it was and other

>> confirmations, its been a long time and I never put too much emphasis on

>> them, but the facts stated remain AS IS AND WERE.

>>

>> Thanks, good luck Nick

>

>

>

>

>

I cannot speak for Rich's posting but I have everything concerning Nick documented. There is much more. I am surprised that you are concerned that someone might reflect and modify some minor details after 37 years but then on the other hand you can accept Taylor totally changing his mind after giving an account TWICE or that everything Dudman wrote or said can be changed by a conversation at a dinner table where we don't know exactly what the conversation was? You heard Nick. He had a powerful no-nonsense personality that I think shows in these e-mails. Nobody was going to tell him anything.. Also, again, what motivation would he have to fabricate his story? What did he get out of it? I don't recall reading anything about him in Time, Newsweek, or the Wall Street Journal. Do you think it won him acclaim on a small forum? It, as I mentioned before, caused him to get his character questioned as has been raised here. He also spentt a llong, distinquished career as a police officer and has been photographed with Presidents. Also, his account happens to fit perfectly with the facts and circumstances and if a bullet came through the windshield and almost hit Greer, and again assuming the sniper was trying to hit Kennedy the hole would have been in the same location described by Taylor and Whitaker. (in the area of the spiral nebulae) Coincidence? Also Greer told a different story before the WC and was photographed laughing as he came out of his testimony. He later told his friends that there was no damage to the windshield. You, of course, have your personal right to weigh the credibility of any witness as you desire. I do believe, imo, that an objective person would find him credible, but go ahead and eliminate him. How do you eliminate all the others? I thank you and I am sure Nick would have thanked you for listening to him. I did everything I could do to verify his account and credibility. I, too, asked him the hard questions. I am satisfied.

Doug Weldon

Barb:

Please allow me to indulge in a postscript. If you cannot tell me everyone who was there when you celebrated your 28th and 30th birthday and what gifts you received, but as you thought about it and changed some of these minor details as you later reflected would it be fair for me to state that it is not credible to believe that you even celebrated your birthday? However, if there was a major occurance, as a parallel to talking with Greer and seeing a hole in the windshield, i.e., you received something special like a diiamond ring with great sentimental value would it be fair for one to conclude that you did not receive iit and that you have no credibility? Furthermore, my educated guess is that your 28th and 30th birthdays were not 37 years ago.

Best,

Doug Weldon

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I have no interest in getting bogged down in this redux; but do want to clarify one point:

There is little doubt from my standpoint that Weldon coached Nick Prencipe to change his statement about where he saw the hole in the windshield, which he defined in his interview with me (low on the passenger side). Apparently, when I was allowed to interview him first, nobody thought that I would ask him for a location; but I did.

When Weldon interviewed him, Nick could no longer recall just where the hole was. That was very convenient. It also suited Weldon's theory, which necessitates a *hole* near the supposed *spiral nebulae* spot.

All this is spelled out in my essay "SS-100-X" in CAR CRASH CULTURE, Palgrave, 2001, which I hope to have scanned in at my site in the near future.

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Hi Martin

Not quite sure what to make of this yet but just to check if I am looking at the right thing the lady in question would be Lady 9 rather than Lady 8 wouldn't it ?

Thanks

David

Hi David. Thanks for your response. :rolleyes:

To be honest, one of the hardest part to uncover in Altgens was this odd shape above the steering wheel and Jackies right hand.

Croft was such a huge help to find the solution.

It was actually a bag, Lady 9 is carrying in the crook of her arm.

Lady 9 is dressed in white and many parts of her a visible in Altgens. Even her elbows which i tinted in pink.

altgenscroftlady10bag.jpg

But the crucial POI (point of interest) belongs to Lady 8. Anthony Marsh says it is her pocket we see in Altgens.

That claim doesn't convince me.

Can you see it?

best to you

Martin

Great eye Martin.

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alt

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield?

You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white?

For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6?

Josiah Thompson

The real issue seems to be that there is a lot riding on a t+t hole in the windshield in the location of the *spiral nebulae*. To some in the Weldon camp, it defines conspiracy; without it, we might as well just cave in and say that LHO acted alone. So don't expect any sort of logic or objectivity. This is a matter of a fanatical religious faith, and can only be debated on that basis.

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alt

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield?

You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white?

For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6?

Josiah Thompson

The real issue seems to be that there is a lot riding on a t+t hole in the windshield in the location of the *spiral nebulae*. To some in the Weldon camp, it defines conspiracy; without it, we might as well just cave in and say that LHO acted alone. So don't expect any sort of logic or objectivity. This is a matter of a fanatical religious faith, and can only be debated on that basis.

I disagree. The gyrations and shenanigans and ordering of multiple windshields and all the secrecy regarding the limo

would never have occurred unless there were a T&T hole in the windshield. If the windshield was undamaged, there

would never have been all the secret activity regarding it.

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alt

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield?

You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white?

For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6?

Josiah Thompson

The real issue seems to be that there is a lot riding on a t+t hole in the windshield in the location of the *spiral nebulae*. To some in the Weldon camp, it defines conspiracy; without it, we might as well just cave in and say that LHO acted alone. So don't expect any sort of logic or objectivity. This is a matter of a fanatical religious faith, and can only be debated on that basis.

I disagree. The gyrations and shenanigans and ordering of multiple windshields and all the secrecy regarding the limo

would never have occurred unless there were a T&T hole in the windshield. If the windshield was undamaged, there

would never have been all the secret activity regarding it.

Jack: I think that is a valid point and can also be applied to other areas in reference to the assassination.

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Hi Martin

Not quite sure what to make of this yet but just to check if I am looking at the right thing the lady in question would be Lady 9 rather than Lady 8 wouldn't it ?

Thanks

David

Hi David. Thanks for your response. :)

To be honest, one of the hardest part to uncover in Altgens was this odd shape above the steering wheel and Jackies right hand.

Croft was such a huge help to find the solution.

It was actually a bag, Lady 9 is carrying in the crook of her arm.

Lady 9 is dressed in white and many parts of her a visible in Altgens. Even her elbows which i tinted in pink.

altgenscroftlady10bag.jpg

But the crucial POI (point of interest) belongs to Lady 8. Anthony Marsh says it is her pocket we see in Altgens.

That claim doesn't convince me.

Can you see it?

best to you

Martin

Hi Martin

Thanks for the reply. I'm wondering if I am looking at the right thing that we are calling the spiral nebula ? What I thought was it (and could be confused for a pocket on the dress of a spectator behind) is definitely on the white dress of lady 9.

I can't see anything of Lady 8 that could be far enough to the right (as we look) that could be part of the alleged hole in the windshield...

Maybe I am looking at the wrong thing though !

David

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Have either of you changed your opinions about the credibility of Nick Prencipe? If not, what questions do you still have. I have many communications from the late Nick Prencipe and it is likely I can respond to most questions in his own words.

Hi Doug,

I thank you for sending me the audio CD of your first interview with Mr. Prencipe. I have listened to it twice. I do believe whenever Mr. Prencipe's story can be told in his own words it is best, as it makes it quite clear what he says happened ... and when ... and where.

A little chronology ...

March 2000: Pamela McElwain-Brown conducted a phone interview with Prencipe; I do not have the exact date, nor have I heard that interview.

April 16, 2000: You interviewed Prencipe by phone, and that is the interview you recently sent me.

At the time of your interview, Prencipe spoke well of Pamela and did not seem to have any issues with her regarding her interview with him, anything he had told her, etc.

In fact, you referred to Pamela's interview when you were speaking to Prencipe, telling him you had listened it, as I recall. I was surprised that you rather led with what you knew he had told Pamela rather than just asking him to tell you what happened the evening of the assassination. And while the topic of him seeing Greer that evening, having the conversation and then what he says he did at the WH garage later that evening is just a very few minutes of your hour long conversation, he confirmed to you what he had told Pamela about seeing, shaking hands with and speaking to Bill Greer on West Executive Ave the evening of the assassination. Prencipe does refer to it as having happened that evening by saying, "Greer said to me that night." He also repeated that Greer had told that shots had been coming at them from all directions, with a shot even coming through the windshield. Prencipe also confirmed that it was sometime that night .... Nov 22nd ... that he went to the WH garage and looked at the limo windshield.

He told you that when he went to the WHG to see the limo, there were "people milling all around" in there "all over the place"; he said, "As far as I am concerned it was a clean hole." [in the windshield] .... he also said "it was quite possible that there was fragmentation." ... and he said "he only got a glance at it" [ said this several times in your conversation] and something about that being because he had to get that tarp he'd pulled up to see the "hole" back down. He also made these comments:

"I didn't say it was a bullet hole, I said there was a hole in the windshield," and when you questioned him about that, he said, "It looked like a bullet hole." You did elicit a 100% confidence level statement from him that he had seen a perforating hole. When it came to *where* on the windshield he saw that hole .... and he placed it low on the passenger side, "a couple inches above the frame" [from the bottom of the windshield]... I was frankly amazed that instead of repeating the confidence level exercise without infecting him, you instead informed him that other witnesses had placed the hole they saw elsewhere and asked him if he could possibly be in error about the location. Another exchange was when you asked him the size of the hole. He thought for a few seconds and then said that the hole was about the size of his little finger, "like a pencil." And your response was, not a question, but a statement, "A little bigger than a pencil." And he agreed.

I have seen different versions of the garage scene .... nobody there, Greer & Kellerman there, several people there, pulling the tarp up alone vs along with someone else, etc. Which is troubling, but is not the prime problem with his story.

I thought something Prencipe said right at the end of your conversation was interesting. He said something about how could anybody think Greer drove the body from Andrews to Bethesda since we know that the body was flown by helicopter to Walter Reed and a motorcade later went from there. This tells me a couple of things ....

- perhaps Pamela had already mentioned a time conflict to him involving Greer

- he thought it was not a problem because he clearly believed he knew the body had gone by helicopter

- he may have made this last minute comment/quasi question to see what you would say about that, but you sort of yeah-yeahed him and said nothing about Greer driving the ambulance from Andrews to Bethesda on national television. I don't know that you were even aware of that at the time.

July 2000: Prencipe is not happy with Pamela any longer, expresses frustration to her in emails, on which you were bcc'd ... which were given to Bernice at some point in time and posted here on the Ed Forum in July 2008.

Those emails are important ... and give us the exact details of what he first claimed ... and show us that when he realized there was some sort of a timing problem with Greer, the details of his story began to grow a bit vague and change.

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamelam@xxxxxxxxx

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0400

Subject: Re: reply

Message-ID: <20000707.080612.-3697521.1.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I try to be as helpful as I can, but I am a bit upset at some of the

choice of words I note from time to time. When you state that you will

follow up and see what makes sense, I dont follow this line of thinking.

I knew the limo when I saw it, I sure saw it many times and even sat in

it. There was someone else in the process of lifing the tarp from its

partially lifted position, as I recall. And I did see a bullet hole, so

if there was a bullet hole, or damage to another one of the cars, there

is a new track to follow.

I do not remember what time I got home that night, or the next morning, I

have no idea what time it was.

My interest in ALL available facts in this are similar to others, I weigh

whatever I see, hear or read for my own judgements, something I have been

doing for the most part of my 84 years.

I was not aware that you were writing a book on this. so I can wait for

some the queries I made.

Regards

NICK

Excerpt from an e-mail from Rich DellaRosa, posted on the yahoo discussion group by Fetzer, April 8, 2009:

In this matter, I refer to Nick Principe, a DC police captain assigned

to the White House since the days of FDR until his retirement. This

was a man who had an office on West Executive Dr and who had more or

less free access to the White House and the White House garage. It

was Nick who drove the lead car in JFK's funeral procession.

In my many exchanges I found Nick to be an honest, upstanding guy who

wished to tell us what he knew and proceeded to do so. He was brought

to our attention by Irv Heineman who was a forum member for years. I

exchanged emails with Nick right up until about a week before his

death. Nick also assisted Doug Weldon in his research.

Nick went to the White House garage when the limo was returned from

Dallas. He reported that the car was pretty shot up. He noted a

through and through hole in the windshield, the dent in the chrome

strip on the dash board, etc. Nick assured me that the windshield had

a hole large enough to pass a pencil through it. (I seem to recall

that he actually did so, but I no longer have that email due to a disk

crash years ago). Nick also indicated that from the beveling in the

laminated windshield he knew whatever made the hole was traveling from

the outside in.

Nick was on friendly terms with many of the SS White House detail. As

he viewed the limo, he asked Greer and Kellerman what had happened in

Dallas. It was Kellerman who replied "Nick, they were shooting at us

from all directions!" And further "That it was like a damned shooting

gallery in Dallas." Greer agreed.

This last is hearsay from Rich DellaRosa, who says Nick related this info to him, and that

they spoke just a week before Prencipe passed away. But the first two, above, were written

by Prencipe himself. I think you posted an e or comment from Prencipe where he noted that

up to midnight would be that evening to him. Unfortunately, up til midnight does not fit within

the time box he himself set out in the first email, above, nor would it resolve the time conflict

his story has with Greer.

Greer, Kellerman, Jackie and the casket were all on AF-1 which arrived at Andrews at

6pm (going with round numbers here).

The C-130 carrying the limo arrived at Andrews at 8pm. By 9pm the limo had already been

escorted to the WH garage, had been parked in a bay and covered with a tarp.

So Prencipe himself says he saw Greer on West Executive Ave sometime after 6 pm, but before 9pm,

more likely before 8 pm as Prencipe said he listened to the transmissions about

having the limo escorted back to the WH garage after he spoke to Greer.

Greer's whereabouts are known for that entire time period and beyond that night. For much of Prencipe's critical

time period, Greer was on national television helping unload the casket from the plane, helping load it into the

ambulance, and then driving that ambulance in a well televised procession to Bethesda. Then helping unload the casket at the morgue loading dock at 8pm and being present at the autopsy, not just by his own account but by others as well, all night. He then drove JFK to the WH for the last time in the wee hours, after 0330, on 11-23.

Are you familiar with the report/interview introduced during Greer's WC testimony ... an interview of Greer and Kellerman conducted by S & O on 11-22 ... S & O took advantage of having the 2 SS agents from the limo there at Bethesda that night and interviewed them during that time.

You had a very congenial conversation with Prencipe. He clearly enjoyed telling war stories from his days on the park police, which is fine. You both seemed to enjoy exchanging ideas on the assassination ... and Prencipe clearly had done some reading on assorted theories. But no matter how sincere someone sounds, alarm bells have to go off when their story just flat out conflicts with known facts. This was the first time you had interviewed Prencipe, yet, at the end of the conversation, you told him you found him credible ... did you not know the evidence about what Greer was doing that night, and without knowing that info, how could you conclude Prencipe's story was credible? Prencipe made Greer a central point in his story.

Have I changed my position on Prencipe's credibility? No, I have not. His story, as he himself framed it, is in direct conflict with the documented whereabouts and activities of Greer that night. I don't see any wiggle room for anyone to be able to consider his story, as he himself told it, as that of a credible witness.

By the way, did you ever follow up on the death of Greer's wife? Prencipe told you he and Greer would talk, about how Greer's wife had cancer, and how Greer had told him when she had died. You were clearly taken aback by that, noting that Greer had preceded his wife in death. When were you able to confirm Ethel Greer died?

Bests regards, sorry it took me so long to respond to the Prencipe question ...

Barb :-)

'

Barb:

I realized I did not answer your last two questions. Yes, i was taken aback at the end of the interview of Nick about Greer's wife. I know the name of the researcher (or former researcher as I have not seen his name in years) who knew Greer and his wife when he died and was given a manuscript written by Greer and paintings done by Greer and I think part of his reasoning for not releasing the manuscript was because of Greer's wife. I also have two telephone interviews of Greer done in 1970 and 1971 by someone. I can only surmise that Greer remarried after his wife died.

Doug

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alt

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield?

You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white?

For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6?

Josiah Thompson

The real issue seems to be that there is a lot riding on a t+t hole in the windshield in the location of the *spiral nebulae*. To some in the Weldon camp, it defines conspiracy; without it, we might as well just cave in and say that LHO acted alone. So don't expect any sort of logic or objectivity. This is a matter of a fanatical religious faith, and can only be debated on that basis.

I disagree. The gyrations and shenanigans and ordering of multiple windshields and all the secrecy regarding the limo

would never have occurred unless there were a T&T hole in the windshield. If the windshield was undamaged, there

would never have been all the secret activity regarding it.

Jack: I think that is a valid point and can also be applied to other areas in reference to the assassination.

Not only did the shenanigans of the ss control the windshield evidence that disappeared and the secrecy in regard to such but for another big sized illegal gem they pulled off that they had within their grasp.. the tv parkland press tapes of the news interviews taken of the doctors interviews especially DR.PERRY stating 3 times the throat wound was from the front..

The w/c asked in writing of the secret service twice for the tapes and records of nbc abc and cbs networks none could be found .the DALLAS TV EXEC JOE LONG of radio station klif stated the original recordings had been seized by the SS Agents ss chief rowley in march of 64 twice stated that the transcripts of the malcolm perry press conference could not be located...

this is one of the BIG LIES of the us government perpetrated about the assassination...on doug hornes copy of the w/h transcript 1327-C which ironically surfaced years later in the LBJ library is stamped the information with an automated us gov.date stamp time.......''RECEIVED U/S.SECRET SERVICE 1963 NOV 26AM 1140 OFFICE OF THE CHIEF ''.......WITH SAYS THAT THE TRANSCRIPT THAT COULD NOT BE FOUND BY ROWLEY WAS RECEIVED BY HIS OWN OFFICE THE DAY AFTER THE FUNERAL OF THE PRESIDENT...excuse caps thankyou...the ss conducted it's own investigation for about one month until it was forced to cease by the fbi so it would not to be believable if an apologist were to speculate that the tape was simply ''lost in the files''there was is no possible benign excuse worthy of belief for the letter Rowley signed out to J.LEE RANKIN..on march 25th 1964...THE US SS WAS INVOLVED IN THE COVER-UP OF THE TRUE NATURE OF president kennedy's death...and rowley's letter to rankin proves it...white house transcript 1327-C and rowley's march 25th letter together constitute a ''smoking gun'' documents in the cover-up of the kennedy assassination information ..from .doug p horne page 647 648 book 2 inside the arrb....THIS ALSO WOULD NEVER HAVE OCCURED IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN A DR.PERRY STATING THREE TIMES DURING THE TAPED INTERVIEWS THAT THE WOUND IN THE NECK WAS AN ENTRANCE WOUND.....b

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Hi Martin

Thanks for the reply. I'm wondering if I am looking at the right thing that we are calling the spiral nebula ? What I thought was it (and could be confused for a pocket on the dress of a spectator behind) is definitely on the white dress of lady 9.

I can't see anything of Lady 8 that could be far enough to the right (as we look) that could be part of the alleged hole in the windshield...

Maybe I am looking at the wrong thing though !

David

David, Lady 8 is under inspection because she is the one directly behind JFK's head.

lady8compo.jpg

Lady 8 is wearing something unusual. A pocket below here dress.

This is the shape according to Jerry what we see in Altgens.

croftlady8.jpg

The shape of this bright part is almost square we have to keep in mind.

I'am sure to read it also from Anthony Marsh but can't it find here now just in hurry. I will update my post as long as i find it.

Can you see it now?

Martin

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