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South Knoll Shooter


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And now, here comes a tale to be investigated, and some photos to compare, also:

"White House Technical Service Rep. F. Vaughn Ferguson [...] whose involvement with the limousine before and after the shooting is well-documented, writes in part: '...The leather…is from the automobile in which John F. Kennedy, President of the United States, was assassinated in on November 22, 1963...Four days after the assassination the White House upholsterer and I removed this leather at the White House. The light blue leather is from the center of the rear seat…The spots on the leather are the dried blood of our beloved President John F. Kennedy…' '' (As quoted just above this post.)

I apologize for not being able to put up the photos that I am citing below, but --

1) There is a Dillard photo of the limo taken (from behind the rear seat) at Love Field after the assassination. It shows a clean limo seat, and just a little bit of blotted-out stain on the carpet in Kennedy's side of the footwell, as if some unfortunate had spilled a nice glass of tokay on the president. This photo was recently up on this forum.

2) There are other photos of the limo seat in the WH garage, covered in gore, and also showing the disputed Lambchop puppet/chrysanthemum bouquet.

Which of these photos is accurate? Can someone post these for comparison? The Dillard photo was recently used to "establish" that there was no hole in the windshield, so the topic is important to this thread.

David:

Again, this is so odd. I actually spoke with workers in Ohio who replaced the leather and Whitaker was clear that the vehicle was stripped to metal on November 25, 1963. It is literallly like a shell game.

Doug

Not to take away from anyone... BUT what about the "alleged" south knoll shooter? The Windshield hole or crack is a very interesting topic... so is the background leading up to the "alleged hole in the windshield.

Sometime ago I posted an overhead picture of Delay Plaza and drew a "line of shot" from the south side of the underpass and parking lot. Perhaps someone would care to locate that picture and post it and compare it to the hole or crack in the windshield. Remember the road curves and dips as it goes under the underpass. Shoots came from our left . I know some do not want to hear this... BUT... I post this for no other reason that to make some aware of this little known background.... I am sure this will kill this thread.... no Pun, intended.

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Mar 28 2007, 06:58 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 10:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles and all, I have been exploring things behind the scenes [not posting them as I do them on the Forum]. I have, as I said, some images by Tom and have located four other much larger clusters of them. If this were to really be moved forward it would need a core group with a lead person; a well organized plan of how to collect, preserve, validate the methodology of and present to the public (and in what forum?!); some money with which to do this; a permanent archive for these items that will be publicly accessable yet highly secure against tampering or theft, etc. Anyone with ideas toward these ends is certainly welcome to post those ideas or contact me by email. When things cystalize a bit more behind the scenes I'll post a bit more. Tom was highly secretive during his lifetime, but he made copies and placed them in secure places. I'd also like to make here a list with URLs, if available, of all presentations Tom did, as well as all recolections people have of meeting and talking with him about his technique, etc.

One interesting fact I came accross in what I've been working on is that Tom gave a very large amount of his conclusions and enhancements to the FBI! It would be most interesting to file a FOIA on those. All of that material exists in copies elsewhere, but to see if the FBI claims to have them, has done anything with them, passed them on to any other agencies, tested his enhancement process, etc. Anyone out there who can work with me on that for a fast-track FOIA contact me by email.

Tom was quite naive [iMHO] to the end of his life that goodness still could be found within the varous agencies of the USG and his presentation and 'donation' of these materials to the FBI he thought was sufficient to prove to them, and thus the Nation, that there had been a massive conspiracy and coverup [perish the thought!] and he was very disappointed that the FBI, as well as no other Government agencies, never got back to him over the materials he tendered. I'd almost bet that those materials were looked at carefully for the purposes of denying and refuting them and would like to try to find those analyses, if they exist. Tom died not long after his donation of these materials to the USG.

Peter

This post has been edited by Peter Lemkin: Mar 28 2007, 07:12 AM

William Plumlee

Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM

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QUOTE (Jack White @ Mar 8 2007, 03:14 PM)

QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Mar 8 2007, 09:37 PM)

It is late here and I'm tired....and will try to put down a few thoughts

briefly and come back to put down more in a day or so. I'm probably one of the or the only researcher here to have had some of my work and photos 'enhanced' by Tom Wilson. I'm looking at them here on my desk. I've never put them on the internet...and likely not about to. I know some about Tom's computer program and there is much I don't. He was too secretive. There are those who could help, but I can't [yet] pry information out of them. I'll not mention who they are here and now. He was approved by the courts as an expert witness in forensics, using his techniques on forensic materials. Cyril is too busy with his own problems to help much on that now. What to say...I had him use his program on the ultra-high-quality Cancellare photo I got via the back door. He never explained totally how his system worked and thus what one gets [or sees] is, yes, hard to verify. Basicly, he had his system look for spectral patterns characterisic of specific materials: glass, metal, wood, cloth, etc. He claimed he could even 'see'/distinguish variants of these. OK, I can 'see' these in his enhancements...but without the independant test on a non-controversial item who is to say if the new image is an artifact or a real 'enhancement' of what was there. My problem and I'm trying to 'lean' on those who could answer....thus far with no success. My gut feeling is his technique worked, but not to the level he claimed in all cases. I have some very interesing 'images' here I can overlay on the original Cancellare and thus orient what is where...but ....too tired to go into it all now...tomorrow....more.... Peter

I am familiar with Tom's work for Peter, because it was I who persuaded Tom to take a look. However, he was very secretive

with both Peter and me about what he found. He would only tell me that he found TWO MEN in the tree shadows. I never saw

his work on this, and frankly was doubtful, since darkroom enhancement of the area showed nothing. He would not show Peter

what he found either, and soon his relations with Peter soured, because I feel he thought Peter was being too "pushy" and impatient

for progress...plus he was busy building his lawsuit against the govt.

Jack

What does the south knoll photo really mean? Two people in the shadows of a tree? It means nothing unless you take into account the story behind the photo and how it came into being and the background of the people in question..

(1) the location of these two people were first told to the FBI in Buna Vista Colorado in April and May of 1964. The FBI was not at all interested in the story and said there was nobody there because they had pictures of the aera and it did not show anyone at that location.

They also said their investigation proved I was at another location in Florida at the time of the assassination. I was not. ( THE Cancellara Photo had not surfaced at this early date, 1964) It was also stated by the FBI that if I (Plumlee) did not quit talking about Dallas and my wild stories concerning the assassination I would never get out of jail ( I was in lock up from about two weeks after the JFK until sometime shortly after the WC completed its findings. I was never interviewed by the WC)

Some years later (1980) Barnard Finsterwald Jr and Gary Shaw had a copy of the Cancellara photo which appeared in Gary Shaws early or first book (can't recall name about 1976 ??) I was shown that picture for the first time and I pointed out to them where Sergio and I were standing at the time of the shots. (near and within the shadows of the fork tree. I drew them a map of our route out of Delay Plaza. Shortly after that my house in Grant Colorado was burned down and I was beat up at a Evergreen Colorado Bar and had ten stitches in right forehead and eye. A few months later, I was shot at in my truck and ran off the road. There were passengers in the truck at the time who have given statements to law enforcement)

Some years later (1990 ??) Jim Maras and Peter Lambkin and I started research on this subject and others concerning JFK and OPS. It that point all hell broke loose and the FBI hounded me for years and IRS took all my holdings and bank accounts for back taxes) We, the three of us continued to work on trying to prove I and Sergio were there that day and at that location on the south knoll when the shots were fired Around that time Jim Maras introduced me to Jack White and the photo came up and I was under the impression that Jack White was going to look into the picture. I was told he had done that and he failed to see anything there. Soon thereafter Peter Lambkin retained Tom Wilson to take a look at the picture. Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Now that is a very rough background as to the events which leads to this south knoll investigation and the photo.. (For the sake of time, I have been about as short as I Can make this)

The reason this is important to the investigation, is because it proves two people were there and when you take into account the background of these two people then it should be looked into. I have always felt that photo is an important link and should be looked into, perhaps more so than the north knoll..

How and why the software works and who did what back when is really not the issue.

Again. What does it prove if two people are proved to be at that location at the time of the shots?.

Add that to the "Tall Tales" of the Plumlee story and what have you? Include the new release documents and all the new evidence and take a hard look at what Plumlee has said before the new releases were released.. If two people are prove to be there, then why were they there? To kill the President? Well could they have been at that location for other reasons? I have been called "one of the assassins". Why? Could my story be true if it is proved I was at that location... Why one of the assassins? Why not one who tried to stop it?

Preponderance of the evidence over the years and the new declassified documents, I feel should be looked into in order to get the trail to point to the real assassination. That is the issue I feel.

Seems each time we start to go into a matter we get drawn away from the subject and our egos get in the way.

I say I saw JFK get assassinated. I saw we were sent in to stop it or as I have said long ago "ABORT IT"

I do not expect anyone to even read this long post about an old mans forty year plus story.. The JFK matter has been shut down and contaminated by dis information. This story also will die on the vine because this story goes beyond reason and it also conflicts with others theories and their life work has been dedicated to their theories and there is not room for a true tall tale... it goes against the norm and all the experts. If the real story did get out or released then all that has been written would have to be sent to the deep six... and the experts would not be of much help in any new investigations... we would have to breed another group of new experts and investigators, because all the old experts would have discredited themselves by their own works.

Peter Lemkin

Feb 15 2008, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM)

Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Tosh, Who is Carl? Also, I know you were 'spooked' that the FBI had various materials and that they approached you at that point. I know think I understand, in part, what that might have been about. Before Tom Wilson died he had arranged to meet with some fairly high-level FBI agent at their Dallas offices. There he gave a presentation several times repeated of his technique and what he had uncovered about the assassination, using it. He then turned some of these materials over to the FBI - from which they went into a black hole. You are apparently the only person to have seen part of them when those FBI men came to you and asked for you to verify parts of what Wilson had told them. Wilson, in his naivete, had assumed the FBI would take his years of hard work and 'solve' or make major progress on Dallas. As we all know they have done nothing before, during or since. They closed the case on or about 11/14/1963.

William Plumlee

Feb 16 2008, 01:07 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 01:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles. Its been almost a year of this thread and as yet nothing has been done in reference to any of the photos of the south knoll and others. The only thing which has been accomplished is the threads go nowhere and the subject matter goes into the black hole.

What is most important? How the work was done or what the work of Wilson's pointed out. As to the south knoll photo and if shown that two people were there in the shadow of the forked tree, then what does that mean? What questions will this raise if it is prove that there were two persons at that location? We will never get to that point. Its been over a year of back and forth as to the photo work and how it was or was not done. Seems we miss the real point of why these two people, if real, were there on the south knoll. Why were they there and too, why were they not interviewed. The story behind the photo is a interesting story when you mention that the FBI knew about these two people many years ago. Why were they not questioned even after one of these persons stated they were there?

I too, brought this thread forward, but it too will die on the vine and the subject matter will not be addressed. What would these two people in the photo, if real, have to say on the subject of what they saw and why they were there? To me that is the real issues. I understand the work has to be validated. However, we speculate on everything else that comes down the pike in reference to the assassination of JFK.... but this matter seems to be "Taboo" for whatever reasons.

For the benefit of doubt lets say there were two people there... what would that really mean? Would what these two persons have to say really mean anything? Did they hear any shots? From where? How many? What were they going to do? Were they there to kill the President? OR were they there for other reasons? We drift off into speculations on many matters as to JFK. But as to the two people on the south knoll we stay away from that subject and if we push we are attacked and called liars. But the FBI does come to one of them asking many questions about the south knoll and they take things out of your burned house. Why?

More south Knoll which went nowhere and the thread went dead much like thr hole in the windshield some years ago:

QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Oct 22 2006, 05:25 PM)

NEW TOPIC: being the other thread was diverted and a little off track:

Now I am going to "step out of line" again and ask a few questions that some do not want asked. I will not go into Central America. After all this is a JFK investigative forum. Right?

Have you noticed how everyone stays away from that "south knoll shooter", or that south knoll picture. Also who brought the "south knoll shooter", and the picture into this investigation?

"... a shot came from behind and to the left of us...". (previous quote)

"... we checked the south parking lot but did not notice anything". (previous quote)

"... the shots ECHOED through out the plaza"... ". (previous quote)

"... some years ago I set off a firecracker at the south end of the triple underpass and watched people look toward the north side of the Plaza and at the north end of the underpass. I think that was because of the echo effect from the tube like tunnels of the underpass...". (previous quote)

".... the Limo was directly in-line with the south shooter and the Presidents head was turned toward the south, Jackie (south knoll south end of underpass) ".

Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?

Tosh,

I have believed in the South Knoll shooter for quite some time, and felt somewhat exonerated when I first saw Sherry G's analysis. And you're right, in that when the topic comes up, it invariably leads back to the North Knoll. Frankly, there are as many potentials in the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll parking lot as there are of the North Knoll area photos. For anyone who has been or will be in Dealey Plaza, or has seen some recent photos taken from the south end of the railroad overpass facing the TSBD, you'll see something you generally don't see from other angles. Stand in Elm St near the head shot X facing west and look straight ahead. You'll be facing the west end of the South Knoll, and not down Elm towards the Stemmons entrance. I would suggest the forum's resident photo experts take a look at the background of Cancellare with the same zeal as they have of Moorman, Betzner, Willis, the Z film, etc.

I have some photos, but unfortunately can't post here due to limited attachment space.

RJS

This post has been edited by Richard J. Smith: Oct 23 2006, 01:29 PM

Edited by William Plumlee
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Tosh, I think we are, in majority, incredibly interested in the south knoll shooter, and welcome any of your experience and comment.

These days, I'm thinking that the throat wound through the windshield, and the right temple head shot are from the south knoll.

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It`s so interesting that Tosh & Sergio were so close to a shooter.

Take into account those people so close to the north knoll shooter? ("Badgeman", less than ten feet and they did not see or hear a shooter, or look around...did they looked to the south?) What's wrong with that picture? The south knoll shooter was concealed behind the south end of the railroad overpass or the west end of the south parking lot, about fifty plus feet west and slightly south from Sergio and I. Again line this position (southend of RR) up with the allege picture of the hole or crack in the windshield? Also notice the direction the Limo was facing due to the curve in the road as it went down into the overpass. (slightly to the s/w..., not due west as some claim.., roughly 4 degrees south of west; decline approx 3 and1/2 degrees to underpass.)

Some years ago I posted a picture of the overhead Delay Plaza and marked this position. Perhaps someone can find it and post. There is no doubt in my mind that a shot came from the left front of the President and one shot missed and is still perhaps in the ground directly northeast in the grass behind where the President was shot. I believe perhaps two shooters were south... one in the parking lot and one at the south end of the overpass.

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Tosh, I think we are in majority incredibly interested in the south knoll shooter, and welcome any of your experience and comment.

I hope so. Years ago when I tried to get into these recollections of mine, I was attacked and the threads were diverted. In spite of what some have said about me and my credibility, I never deleted any of my threads, nor faked my death. I have been reading this forum for some years and only come forth when I see something that I think might help in the investigation into JFK's murder. I desire no gain... just the truth. I will not fight or defend my position in reference to the special interest and so called, "experts" who monitor these type of forums. My information was on record many years before some of these "experts" were even born.

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There is no question in my mind Tosh,that you are an asset to this forum.I myself have never judged you.

I have tried to utilize the search function on this site,but have been unsucessful.

THANKS: You know you are in with the minority.., Right? I'll do what I can. I am sure the back door channels and PM's are cooking now. I have received a few of those "Private" Emails which have been sent out over the years... seems I am an "Idiot" and not to be trusted. I have often wondered what their motives were and why so secret?

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I have moved this topic because it did not fit well within the topic from which there had been some previous discussion. Barb and Jerry have examined some further evidence and have agreed to contribute to the exchange. I believe the prior discussion has been constructive and has demonstrated that disagreement can be expessed passionately, at times, without personal attacks. I submit, unequivocally, that it is a fact that a shot was fired through the front of the windshield and second that there is a strong possibility that the shot resulted in an entrance wound to the throat of President Kennedy. I would define a "fact" as testimony or evidence which would convince an impartial body of people that such was true. I sincerely believe that I could have convinced any unbiased jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that such a shot was fired and that a cover-up occurred at the highest levels of the United States government and that members of the United States Secret Service had to be complicit in allowing the assassination to occur. I have not reached my conclusions lightly or without great concern and disappointment. (Etc., etc......)

Best,

Doug Weldon

-----------------------------------------------------

Thanks very much for this contribution and others as well. I and various colleagues have long been of the belief that the entrance wound occurred exactly as you descirbed. I found this posting informative and compelling. Look forward to your book.

John Gillespie

Someone mentioned "Al Carrier" and his ballistic work. Here is a series of post dated 2004. They were quickly buried:

"... Al Carrier

Nov 25 2004, 11:46 PM

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(" ... Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation]at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory.". ...) note:Found in body of below post

Reference All Carrier's post of Nov. 25, 2004:

"....I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.

Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.

There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.

By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.

The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.

The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.

The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.

With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.

Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.

In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.

The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?

Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.

Al Carrier ...". (End of Post)

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Nic Martin

Nov 26 2004, 09:18 AM

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Wonderful points, I wonder what all it would take to get an experiment running to test the echo effect. This was really well-written, and I'm sure it'd be an eye opener for anyone who didn't previously consider the south Knoll. Congrats!

John Simkin

Nov 26 2004, 09:49 AM

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"Great posting Al. I hope this is the beginning of a long thread:"

(note: This thread was quickly dropped as the record shows)

Con't from John Simkin Post:

"... In Harold Weisberg’s book Whitewash he states:

When the motorcade turned toward the Depository Building on Houston Street, for several hundred feet there was a completely unobstructed view of it from the sixth-floor window. The police photographs and the forgotten Secret Service reconstruction of 1963 also show this. There was not a twig between the window and the President. There were no curves in that street, no tricky shooting angles. If all the shots came from this window, and the assassin was as cool and collected as the Report represents, why did he not shoot at the easiest and by far the best target? Why did he wait until his target was so difficult that the country's best shots could not duplicate his feat?

Do you share Weisberg’s view that the fact that the firing did not start until the motorcade reached Elm Street, suggests that there must have been more than one gunman?

To help this discussion I have added a drawing of scene of the assassination.

Edited by William Plumlee
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Did Al Carrier ever get around to commenting on the throat wound?

Not that I know of. He was fed up with all the in fighting on this forum and quit the forum in frustration. I have not heard from him in many years. Tim Carrol, who past away a few years ago, was working on some of Al's post and looking into the south knoll shots. Seems at that time some did not want that information to see the light of day. Perhaps because it interfered with their theories or for other reasons only known to them.

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And now, here comes a tale to be investigated, and some photos to compare, also:

"White House Technical Service Rep. F. Vaughn Ferguson [...] whose involvement with the limousine before and after the shooting is well-documented, writes in part: '...The leather…is from the automobile in which John F. Kennedy, President of the United States, was assassinated in on November 22, 1963...Four days after the assassination the White House upholsterer and I removed this leather at the White House. The light blue leather is from the center of the rear seat…The spots on the leather are the dried blood of our beloved President John F. Kennedy…' '' (As quoted just above this post.)

I apologize for not being able to put up the photos that I am citing below, but --

1) There is a Dillard photo of the limo taken (from behind the rear seat) at Love Field after the assassination. It shows a clean limo seat, and just a little bit of blotted-out stain on the carpet in Kennedy's side of the footwell, as if some unfortunate had spilled a nice glass of tokay on the president. This photo was recently up on this forum.

2) There are other photos of the limo seat in the WH garage, covered in gore, and also showing the disputed Lambchop puppet/chrysanthemum bouquet.

Which of these photos is accurate? Can someone post these for comparison? The Dillard photo was recently used to "establish" that there was no hole in the windshield, so the topic is important to this thread.

David:

Again, this is so odd. I actually spoke with workers in Ohio who replaced the leather and Whitaker was clear that the vehicle was stripped to metal on November 25, 1963. It is literallly like a shell game.

Doug

Not to take away from anyone... BUT what about the "alleged" south knoll shooter? The Windshield hole or crack is a very interesting topic... so is the background leading up to the "alleged hole in the windshield.

Sometime ago I posted an overhead picture of Delay Plaza and drew a "line of shot" from the south side of the underpass and parking lot. Perhaps someone would care to locate that picture and post it and compare it to the hole or crack in the windshield. Remember the road curves and dips as it goes under the underpass. Shoots came from our left . I know some do not want to hear this... BUT... I post this for no other reason that to make some aware of this little known background.... I am sure this will kill this thread.... no Pun, intended.

OLD POSTINGS:

Mar 28 2007, 06:58 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 10:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles and all, I have been exploring things behind the scenes [not posting them as I do them on the Forum]. I have, as I said, some images by Tom and have located four other much larger clusters of them. If this were to really be moved forward it would need a core group with a lead person; a well organized plan of how to collect, preserve, validate the methodology of and present to the public (and in what forum?!); some money with which to do this; a permanent archive for these items that will be publicly accessable yet highly secure against tampering or theft, etc. Anyone with ideas toward these ends is certainly welcome to post those ideas or contact me by email. When things cystalize a bit more behind the scenes I'll post a bit more. Tom was highly secretive during his lifetime, but he made copies and placed them in secure places. I'd also like to make here a list with URLs, if available, of all presentations Tom did, as well as all recolections people have of meeting and talking with him about his technique, etc.

One interesting fact I came accross in what I've been working on is that Tom gave a very large amount of his conclusions and enhancements to the FBI! It would be most interesting to file a FOIA on those. All of that material exists in copies elsewhere, but to see if the FBI claims to have them, has done anything with them, passed them on to any other agencies, tested his enhancement process, etc. Anyone out there who can work with me on that for a fast-track FOIA contact me by email.

Tom was quite naive [iMHO] to the end of his life that goodness still could be found within the varous agencies of the USG and his presentation and 'donation' of these materials to the FBI he thought was sufficient to prove to them, and thus the Nation, that there had been a massive conspiracy and coverup [perish the thought!] and he was very disappointed that the FBI, as well as no other Government agencies, never got back to him over the materials he tendered. I'd almost bet that those materials were looked at carefully for the purposes of denying and refuting them and would like to try to find those analyses, if they exist. Tom died not long after his donation of these materials to the USG.

Peter

This post has been edited by Peter Lemkin: Mar 28 2007, 07:12 AM

William Plumlee

Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM

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QUOTE (Jack White @ Mar 8 2007, 03:14 PM)

QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Mar 8 2007, 09:37 PM)

It is late here and I'm tired....and will try to put down a few thoughts

briefly and come back to put down more in a day or so. I'm probably one of the or the only researcher here to have had some of my work and photos 'enhanced' by Tom Wilson. I'm looking at them here on my desk. I've never put them on the internet...and likely not about to. I know some about Tom's computer program and there is much I don't. He was too secretive. There are those who could help, but I can't [yet] pry information out of them. I'll not mention who they are here and now. He was approved by the courts as an expert witness in forensics, using his techniques on forensic materials. Cyril is too busy with his own problems to help much on that now. What to say...I had him use his program on the ultra-high-quality Cancellare photo I got via the back door. He never explained totally how his system worked and thus what one gets [or sees] is, yes, hard to verify. Basicly, he had his system look for spectral patterns characterisic of specific materials: glass, metal, wood, cloth, etc. He claimed he could even 'see'/distinguish variants of these. OK, I can 'see' these in his enhancements...but without the independant test on a non-controversial item who is to say if the new image is an artifact or a real 'enhancement' of what was there. My problem and I'm trying to 'lean' on those who could answer....thus far with no success. My gut feeling is his technique worked, but not to the level he claimed in all cases. I have some very interesing 'images' here I can overlay on the original Cancellare and thus orient what is where...but ....too tired to go into it all now...tomorrow....more.... Peter

I am familiar with Tom's work for Peter, because it was I who persuaded Tom to take a look. However, he was very secretive

with both Peter and me about what he found. He would only tell me that he found TWO MEN in the tree shadows. I never saw

his work on this, and frankly was doubtful, since darkroom enhancement of the area showed nothing. He would not show Peter

what he found either, and soon his relations with Peter soured, because I feel he thought Peter was being too "pushy" and impatient

for progress...plus he was busy building his lawsuit against the govt.

Jack

What does the south knoll photo really mean? Two people in the shadows of a tree? It means nothing unless you take into account the story behind the photo and how it came into being and the background of the people in question..

(1) the location of these two people were first told to the FBI in Buna Vista Colorado in April and May of 1964. The FBI was not at all interested in the story and said there was nobody there because they had pictures of the aera and it did not show anyone at that location.

They also said their investigation proved I was at another location in Florida at the time of the assassination. I was not. ( THE Cancellara Photo had not surfaced at this early date, 1964) It was also stated by the FBI that if I (Plumlee) did not quit talking about Dallas and my wild stories concerning the assassination I would never get out of jail ( I was in lock up from about two weeks after the JFK until sometime shortly after the WC completed its findings. I was never interviewed by the WC)

Some years later (1980) Barnard Finsterwald Jr and Gary Shaw had a copy of the Cancellara photo which appeared in Gary Shaws early or first book (can't recall name about 1976 ??) I was shown that picture for the first time and I pointed out to them where Sergio and I were standing at the time of the shots. (near and within the shadows of the fork tree. I drew them a map of our route out of Delay Plaza. Shortly after that my house in Grant Colorado was burned down and I was beat up at a Evergreen Colorado Bar and had ten stitches in right forehead and eye. A few months later, I was shot at in my truck and ran off the road. There were passengers in the truck at the time who have given statements to law enforcement)

Some years later (1990 ??) Jim Maras and Peter Lambkin and I started research on this subject and others concerning JFK and OPS. It that point all hell broke loose and the FBI hounded me for years and IRS took all my holdings and bank accounts for back taxes) We, the three of us continued to work on trying to prove I and Sergio were there that day and at that location on the south knoll when the shots were fired Around that time Jim Maras introduced me to Jack White and the photo came up and I was under the impression that Jack White was going to look into the picture. I was told he had done that and he failed to see anything there. Soon thereafter Peter Lambkin retained Tom Wilson to take a look at the picture. Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Now that is a very rough background as to the events which leads to this south knoll investigation and the photo.. (For the sake of time, I have been about as short as I Can make this)

The reason this is important to the investigation, is because it proves two people were there and when you take into account the background of these two people then it should be looked into. I have always felt that photo is an important link and should be looked into, perhaps more so than the north knoll..

How and why the software works and who did what back when is really not the issue.

Again. What does it prove if two people are proved to be at that location at the time of the shots?.

Add that to the "Tall Tales" of the Plumlee story and what have you? Include the new release documents and all the new evidence and take a hard look at what Plumlee has said before the new releases were released.. If two people are prove to be there, then why were they there? To kill the President? Well could they have been at that location for other reasons? I have been called "one of the assassins". Why? Could my story be true if it is proved I was at that location... Why one of the assassins? Why not one who tried to stop it?

Preponderance of the evidence over the years and the new declassified documents, I feel should be looked into in order to get the trail to point to the real assassination. That is the issue I feel.

Seems each time we start to go into a matter we get drawn away from the subject and our egos get in the way.

I say I saw JFK get assassinated. I saw we were sent in to stop it or as I have said long ago "ABORT IT"

I do not expect anyone to even read this long post about an old mans forty year plus story.. The JFK matter has been shut down and contaminated by dis information. This story also will die on the vine because this story goes beyond reason and it also conflicts with others theories and their life work has been dedicated to their theories and there is not room for a true tall tale... it goes against the norm and all the experts. If the real story did get out or released then all that has been written would have to be sent to the deep six... and the experts would not be of much help in any new investigations... we would have to breed another group of new experts and investigators, because all the old experts would have discredited themselves by their own works.

Peter Lemkin

Feb 15 2008, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM)

Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Tosh, Who is Carl? Also, I know you were 'spooked' that the FBI had various materials and that they approached you at that point. I know think I understand, in part, what that might have been about. Before Tom Wilson died he had arranged to meet with some fairly high-level FBI agent at their Dallas offices. There he gave a presentation several times repeated of his technique and what he had uncovered about the assassination, using it. He then turned some of these materials over to the FBI - from which they went into a black hole. You are apparently the only person to have seen part of them when those FBI men came to you and asked for you to verify parts of what Wilson had told them. Wilson, in his naivete, had assumed the FBI would take his years of hard work and 'solve' or make major progress on Dallas. As we all know they have done nothing before, during or since. They closed the case on or about 11/14/1963.

William Plumlee

Feb 16 2008, 01:07 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 01:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles. Its been almost a year of this thread and as yet nothing has been done in reference to any of the photos of the south knoll and others. The only thing which has been accomplished is the threads go nowhere and the subject matter goes into the black hole.

What is most important? How the work was done or what the work of Wilson's pointed out. As to the south knoll photo and if shown that two people were there in the shadow of the forked tree, then what does that mean? What questions will this raise if it is prove that there were two persons at that location? We will never get to that point. Its been over a year of back and forth as to the photo work and how it was or was not done. Seems we miss the real point of why these two people, if real, were there on the south knoll. Why were they there and too, why were they not interviewed. The story behind the photo is a interesting story when you mention that the FBI knew about these two people many years ago. Why were they not questioned even after one of these persons stated they were there?

I too, brought this thread forward, but it too will die on the vine and the subject matter will not be addressed. What would these two people in the photo, if real, have to say on the subject of what they saw and why they were there? To me that is the real issues. I understand the work has to be validated. However, we speculate on everything else that comes down the pike in reference to the assassination of JFK.... but this matter seems to be "Taboo" for whatever reasons.

For the benefit of doubt lets say there were two people there... what would that really mean? Would what these two persons have to say really mean anything? Did they hear any shots? From where? How many? What were they going to do? Were they there to kill the President? OR were they there for other reasons? We drift off into speculations on many matters as to JFK. But as to the two people on the south knoll we stay away from that subject and if we push we are attacked and called liars. But the FBI does come to one of them asking many questions about the south knoll and they take things out of your burned house. Why?

More south Knoll which went nowhere and the thread went dead much like thr hole in the windshield some years ago:

QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Oct 22 2006, 05:25 PM)

NEW TOPIC: being the other thread was diverted and a little off track:

Now I am going to "step out of line" again and ask a few questions that some do not want asked. I will not go into Central America. After all this is a JFK investigative forum. Right?

Have you noticed how everyone stays away from that "south knoll shooter", or that south knoll picture. Also who brought the "south knoll shooter", and the picture into this investigation?

"... a shot came from behind and to the left of us...". (previous quote)

"... we checked the south parking lot but did not notice anything". (previous quote)

"... the shots ECHOED through out the plaza"... ". (previous quote)

"... some years ago I set off a firecracker at the south end of the triple underpass and watched people look toward the north side of the Plaza and at the north end of the underpass. I think that was because of the echo effect from the tube like tunnels of the underpass...". (previous quote)

".... the Limo was directly in-line with the south shooter and the Presidents head was turned toward the south, Jackie (south knoll south end of underpass) ".

Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?

Tosh,

I have believed in the South Knoll shooter for quite some time, and felt somewhat exonerated when I first saw Sherry G's analysis. And you're right, in that when the topic comes up, it invariably leads back to the North Knoll. Frankly, there are as many potentials in the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll parking lot as there are of the North Knoll area photos. For anyone who has been or will be in Dealey Plaza, or has seen some recent photos taken from the south end of the railroad overpass facing the TSBD, you'll see something you generally don't see from other angles. Stand in Elm St near the head shot X facing west and look straight ahead. You'll be facing the west end of the South Knoll, and not down Elm towards the Stemmons entrance. I would suggest the forum's resident photo experts take a look at the background of Cancellare with the same zeal as they have of Moorman, Betzner, Willis, the Z film, etc.

I have some photos, but unfortunately can't post here due to limited attachment space.

RJS

This post has been edited by Richard J. Smith: Oct 23 2006, 01:29 PM

Mr. Plumlee:

You are correct. This is killing the thread and I am not sure why you are doing this. I believe in a south knoll shooter and have written and spoken extensively about it. However, though I am deeply interested in this and would comment I am requesting that you begin another thread with this tpic. Thank you.

Doug Weldon

Sir; This is all connected to your windshield thing which connects to the south knoll... sorry you can't see this. I will back off and let you solve this can of worms, being as you seem to know my motives... sorry I offended you Adios, Plumlee

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Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

Kathy C

Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

YES... However, in order not to high jack this thread and offend some... I will not respond further. I see things different than some in reference to the windshield and the crack/hole: In my view I look at things a little different than some, because I was there.

Information only becomes intelligence, after its been deciphered: All information is important regardless of the source or how it is obtained.... sorry my information does not fit in this exchange on this thread. However, I believe it is important to the total picture and leads to the motive behind the shooting and those involved.

I am not here to 'tickle ears' or play word games. Thanks for posting the picture. Although, its out of place at this location I am sure some will see it as a step in the right direction as to a possible hole in the windshield. FWIW.

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imo doug and all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

Edited by Bernice Moore
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