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imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

Thanks very much Bernice for posting those pictures. If you notice pictures #4 and 5 you will see clearly the area where I believe the "south knoll shooter" was located. A few years ago I was told that the railroad workers would have seen a shooter if one had been on the triple underpass with a rifle. At that time I took issue with that statement and pointed out that a shooter would not have been seen because of the slanted wing of the banister which would have prevented the workers from seeing anyone at that location. ( if you notice there is a wedge and a tall pillar at the south end of the underpass. This is where Sergio and I crossed over the railroad tracks from our location some 75 feet or so east of this area at the time of the shots. This was about perhaps one minute or so after the shots had been fired)

As Sergio and I approached this area we did smell a strong oder of gunpowder about where the man standing near the pickup truck was parked on Commerce street. At the time I thought the smell of gunpowder had drifted on the wind from the north knoll near the picket fence. I also thought other shots had came from the south knoll area, perhaps somewhere near the south knoll parking lot.

Your pictures clearly points out the area I was referencing some years ago. However the debate went on that a shooter would have been seen by all the railroad workers on the bridge at the time of the shooting and the threads drifted off into theories and speculations. At the time, I also mentioned that the railroad tracks were higher from the base of the bridges foundation in 63 than what they were today and that would account for the man standing on the opposite side of the underpass, who some had said was found in a photo. He was referenced as a "seven foot man". and I mentioned that the raised rail road tracks would account for this height variation. However, the experts prevailed. That logic was thrown into the mix before any of the pictures, of which you have posted, were shown.

On another note. I was also told by the Forum and others, that a shot fired from that location would not have cleared the windshield or the crossbar and too, it would have hit Jackie. I also took issue with those statements and mentioned that JFK's head was slightly turned to his left at the time of the shots and the angle of fire I believed, would have cleared the windshield. I did point out the slight curve in Elm Street which I claimed would have put the President more in line with a fatal front head shot from the south and that shot would have missed Jackie, because of the curve in the street and the President facing slightly to his left.

All these recollections were also told to John Winer and Dick Mc Call of Senator John Kerry's staff in close door (under oath) testimony in 1990 and 91 concerning the Iran-contra matter of which all that testimony was classified " Committee Sensitive, Top Secret", and remains so today.

( note: I was asked by the committee to give them a time line of my activities of the years of my involvement in covert activities in behalf of the Federal Government, of which I did and I had to incorporate the, "flight to Dallas", in that timeline. John Winer did have a problem with the portion concerning that day in Dallas and told me so after the testimony. I was asked in May of 1991 to come back to Washington D.C and reconfirm the sections of my testimony concerning the Kennedy Assassination, of which I did and was told at that time that the section concerning JFK was also now classified)

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Bernice, where it is circled is erroneous to me. To our left stand 2 men it seems. Also, there seems to be a man south and on the level of the top of the underpass. It's either a man or it's the top of the lamp pole.

Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B

KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B

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THANKS KATHY...''Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?''

Tosh, MANY THANKS MANY FOR STEPPING BACK IN..I THINK MANY APPRECIATE YOU DOING SO FOR THE SAKE OF THE RESEARCH AGAIN TAKE CARE..B

B

Thanks very much Bernice for posting those pictures. If you notice pictures #4 and 5 you will see clearly the area where I believe the "south knoll shooter" was located. A few years ago I was told that the railroad workers would have seen a shooter if one had been on the triple underpass with a rifle. At that time I took issue with that statement and pointed out that a shooter would not have been seen because of the slanted wing of the banister which would have prevented the workers from seeing anyone at that location. ( if you notice there is a wedge and a tall pillar at the south end of the underpass. This is where Sergio and I crossed over the railroad tracks from our location some 75 feet or so east of this area at the time of the shots. This was about perhaps one minute or so after the shots had been fired)

As Sergio and I approached this area we did smell a strong oder of gunpowder about where the man standing near the pickup truck was parked on Commerce street. At the time I thought the smell of gunpowder had drifted on the wind from the north knoll near the picket fence. I also thought other shots had came from the south knoll area, perhaps somewhere near the south knoll parking lot.

Your pictures clearly points out the area I was referencing some years ago. However the debate went on that a shooter would have been seen by all the railroad workers on the bridge at the time of the shooting and the threads drifted off into theories and speculations. At the time, I also mentioned that the railroad tracks were higher from the base of the bridges foundation in 63 than what they were today and that would account for the man standing on the opposite side of the underpass, who some had said was found in a photo. He was referenced as a "seven foot man". and I mentioned that the raised rail road tracks would account for this height variation. However, the experts prevailed. That logic was thrown into the mix before any of the pictures, of which you have posted, were shown.

On another note. I was also told by the Forum and others, that a shot fired from that location would not have cleared the windshield or the crossbar and too, it would have hit Jackie. I also took issue with those statements and mentioned that JFK's head was slightly turned to his left at the time of the shots and the angle of fire I believed, would have cleared the windshield. I did point out the slight curve in Elm Street which I claimed would have put the President more in line with a fatal front head shot from the south and that shot would have missed Jackie, because of the curve in the street and the President facing slightly to his left.

All these recollections were also told to John Winer and Dick Mc Call of Senator John Kerry's staff in close door (under oath) testimony in 1990 and 91 concerning the Iran-contra matter of which all that testimony was classified " Committee Sensitive, Top Secret", and remains so today.

( note: I was asked by the committee to give them a time line of my activities of the years of my involvement in covert activities in behalf of the Federal Government, of which I did and I had to incorporate the, "flight to Dallas", in that timeline. John Winer did have a problem with the portion concerning that day in Dallas and told me so after the testimony. I was asked in May of 1991 to come back to Washington D.C and reconfirm the sections of my testimony concerning the Kennedy Assassination, of which I did and was told at that time that the section concerning JFK was also now classified)

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The police officer (Foster or White, I forget which) who was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm Street was in a position to see a south knoll shooter. So you know what? He testified that a freight train was passing at the time of the assassination, so he couldn't see anything to the east (or of course to the south) at the time of the shooting.

Why would this officer testify to a passing train that everyone knows wasn't there? The only reason I can think of is that he was protecting himself. He saw something at the south end of the underpass, but he wanted the conspirators to know that he didn't see it. So he invented a train that blocked his view.

and ron this makes perfect sense what common sense coming into this ...oh my... :) b re the list of peoples below i have read both that 11 and 14 were rrworkers...fwtw..

If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

As to the train passing that was some minutes after the shooting as confirmed by the train logs and switching yards logs, I was told this some years ago by SAC Check Middleton of the Denver FBI at Buna Vista Colorado in 1964.

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THANKS KATHY...''Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?''

Tosh, MANY THANKS MANY FOR STEPPING BACK IN..I THINK MANY APPRECIATE YOU DOING SO FOR THE SAKE OF THE RESEARCH AGAIN TAKE CARE..B

B

Thanks for posting the pictures. I am really rushed right now but will comment on them soon. Until then: notice the curve in Elm Street and the underpass bannister and slanted portion thereof. Study that location and get back to me on what you think as to a shooter being seen by the railroad workers on the west end and north of that south location.... Thanks again Tosh

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TOSH YOUR WELCOME AND WHEN YOU GET A MOMENT..PLEASE ..IF AND WHEN...THE GUNSMOKE ODOR THAT LINGERED IN THE AREA AS I BELIEVE YOU MENTIONED IN A PAST THREAD AS YOU CLIMBED THE EMBANKMENT WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN LINGERING FROM THE PARKING LOT AREA SHOWN IN CANCELLARE...THANKS...B

Edited by Bernice Moore
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I HAVE FOUND THIS PHOTO FROM A PAST THREAD ON THE EF DONE THE PHOTO I BELIEVE BY JOHN DOLVA IN REFERENCE TO THE GUNSMOKE ODOR..IS THIS ABOUT CORRECT AS IT GOES...THANKS B PS HOPE YOU DO NOT MIND THE POSTING OF SERGIO'S PHOTO IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST ON HERE THAT'S HOW I SNAGGLED IT...

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Bernice,

Thanks. It is apparent from Foster's statement that a train passed soon after the shooting. White simply had the train arrive sooner to coincide with the shooting and block his view of it.

I don't wish to make another thread. I just want an opinion as to how the 3 tramps were caught on a train. Did they want to get caught? Was this a ruse so the real shooters could get away? Apparently, they weren't on the train that passed after the shooting.

Kathy C

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Bernice,

Thanks. It is apparent from Foster's statement that a train passed soon after the shooting. White simply had the train arrive sooner to coincide with the shooting and block his view of it.

I don't wish to make another thread. I just want an opinion as to how the 3 tramps were caught on a train. Did they want to get caught? Was this a ruse so the real shooters could get away? Apparently, they weren't on the train that passed after the shooting.

Kathy C

KATHY THE THREE TRAMPS WE HAVE PHOTOS OF FROM MY RESEARCH WHICH I ADMIT IS LACKING IN THIS AREA ARE THE THREE TAKEN OFF THE FREIGHT TRAIN SEE D.V HARKNESS..DPD FOR MORE INFO...THERE WERE I BELIEVE THREE OTHERS ARRESTED HAVE IT SOMEWHERE...FROM A BOX CAR ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE OVERPASS WHO WERE ALSO TAKEN IN, OTHERS WERE ARRESTED THAT DAY BUT NOTHING RECORDED IM MANY CASES THAT WE KNOW OF I DO BELIEVE..AND THEY WERE SIMPLY LET GO....B

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/harkness.htm

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If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

As to the train passing that was some minutes after the shooting as confirmed by the train logs and switching yards logs, I was told this some years ago by SAC Check Middleton of the Denver FBI at Buna Vista Colorado in 1964.

Interesting Tosh, I remember you telling me you were visited from time to time in Buena Vista by FBI (and perhaps CIA/MI), but never knew any of them told you any details of the events that went on in Dallas. I thought they were there to ask you things, and mostly to make sure you stopped 'talking' about 'Dallas' - or you'd not see the light of day again. Amazingly, soon after Tosh was released [i believe it was after another year, correct me if I've forgotten] he was not only out of prison, but had been given a huge 'loan' with no provisions for having to pay it back [!] by a one desk, one man 'bank'. With this 'loan' Tosh purchased or leased [forget] one or more aircraft and started flying off-the-shelf missions again. Hey T, ever pay back that 'loan'?  :rolleyes:

Pete: Nice to hear from you. It was not quite as simple as your recap. It was not "prison" it was a state reformatory at Buna Vista on a charge of a fifty dollar "no account check". Judge Finsilver of District #10 sentenced me to a "term" in the Colorado State Reformatory after I had been extradited from south Florida to Colorado at a cost to the State of Colorado of $2800. Shortly after that sentencing Judge Finsilver was appointed to a position as a Federal Judge. I was transfered to Buna Vista from the Denver County Jail in April of 1964 after being in lockup from January of 64 in Florida.

(note: I was arrested in Florida soon after we got back from Dallas, November 25,1963 my birthday and the day JFK was buried. I was sent back to Loxahchee, near West Palm Beach Florida on the 26th. I was extradited to Colorado around January of 1964 and put in the Denver County Jail to await sentencing on the $50 no account check which, by the way, as you know, was never produced in a court of law.., or ever located for that matter.)

While in Buna Vista's State Reformatory I was visited four times by the Denver FBI and twice by people from Washington D.C. In those conversations I was told to stop talking to the Warden Wayne K. Patterson about the assassination or I would, "never get out of jail, or see the light of day again". Most of the conversations were the agents telling me how wrong I was in my recap of the events of that day.

As to the train crossing the overpass? I had mentioned previously to the FBI that there were trains and freight cars in the railroad yard before the shooting. Check Middleton SAC FBI, told me I was wrong that the train crossed the bridge after the shooting. I told him I never said the train was crossing at the time of the shooting and that his report was wrong. At that time, about January or February I believe there was talk about the forming of the Warren Commission to investigate the assassination. I was held in lockup until shortly after that commission completed their work. I am not sure of the actual release date from Buna Vista. I believe we checked that out when you and I were in Denver together.., when you were working with Tom Wilson on the south knoll photo.

In reference to the money as a loan and the aircraft? That was some years later, 1969-70. I was given a new credit rating at the Denver Credit Board and the Dun and Bradstreet in order to get a loan to start a business in Denver. I bought two aircraft a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 310 and based them at Jefferson County airport It was agreed I would use these aircraft on a "lease to" agreement using my new company as cover for the use of the aircraft in "Drug Interdiction" operations in behalf of the State and Federal narcotics programs. My company Plum-Lee Corp and Consolidated Pipelines, Inc. were operating companies and also used as "cut outs" as cover in those undercover operations. The loans ( total of a $125,000) were arranged to me as personal loans by the Jefferson County Bank of Lakewood Colorado, which were mostly paid back by the operating companies, that is until the IRS step in and shut both of those companies down for back taxes and bankrupt me and the companies.

I divorced and moved to Phoenix Arizona and became involved in a series of undercover operations with the Arizona "Tri State Drug Task Force", and the Phoenix Organized Crime detail, using them as cut outs for the Federal Government in various undercover operations as a pilot on those missions to Mexico. Soon came the Iran contra affair and thats another story.

As to Kennedy? Point being. I was in lockup all through the Warren Commission on a fake no account charge and released soon after the Commission had completed their work. And at that time I did make a deal with CIA and the Administration, which went into effect a few years later 1970-79.

I know this is perhaps more detail than anyone, or perhaps you Peter, care about, but the slant of your recap left a sour taste on my mouth and I kind of got the wrong impression. Perhaps, because it sounded much like the FBI recapping some things I have said in the past. I know I have told you that I never intend to get re-involved in the JFK matter again... BUT when I read and see things others say I have said and slant them in a way that is not true I will respond for the sake of history. The best to you my friend. Tosh

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TOSH YOUR WELCOME AND WHEN YOU GET A MOMENT..PLEASE ..IF AND WHEN...THE GUNSMOKE ODOR THAT LINGERED IN THE AREA AS I BELIEVE YOU MENTIONED IN A PAST THREAD AS YOU CLIMBED THE ENBANKMENT WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN LINGERING FROM THE PARKING LOT AREA SHOWN IN CANCELLARE...THANKS...B

Bernice: I have no problem with the postings of your pictures. Good work. As to the smell of gun smoke and the markings in the photo, you are right on. I first noticed the smell as we approached the truck with the man in the back or standing next to the truck. At first I thought the odor had drifted on the wind from the north knoll because all the people were running toward that knoll. The south parking lot was my second thought. However, I did not connect that a shooter, or shooters, had been located there, because Sergio and I had checked that area earlier and thought it to be clear of people. We crossed over the tracks in a slanted movement because of the switching tracks which would have made walking over them very difficult. After crossing the tracks we cut back south and crossed down into the west side of the south end of the underpass the into parking lot which was muddy. Sergio fell down the slippery slope and was full of mud when we got to a waiting car. (51 or 52 Ford)

I hope this helps in some way. The best to you. Tosh

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tosh here you go..THIS BTW WAS TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH SIDE OVERPASS FOR DOUG WELDON'S DOCUMENTARY .b

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left?

Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?

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If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

Tosh,

I was not referring to railroad workers, who were on the east side of the underpass and certainly could not have seen a south knoll shooter behind the winged east wedge. I was referring to police officer White.

I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

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If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

Tosh,

I was not referring to railroad workers, who were on the east side of the underpass and certainly could not have seen a south knoll shooter behind the winged east wedge. I was referring to police officer White.

I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

FWIW, not if the sniper was crouched or prone and/or if there was someone standing between the sniper and any viewers, i.e., someone dressed as a police officer.

Doug Weldob

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I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

FWIW, not if the sniper was crouched or prone

What difference would that make if the person was in White's line of sight behind the banister? If prone, the person could be even more likely to be spotted, since his body would be extended westward.

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I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

FWIW, not if the sniper was crouched or prone

What difference would that make if the person was in White's line of sight behind the banister? If prone, the person could be even more likely to be spotted, since his body would be extended westward.

Ron:

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Doug Weldon

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