South Knoll Shooter

[William Plumlee]

If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

Tosh,

I was not referring to railroad workers, who were on the east side of the underpass and certainly could not have seen a south knoll shooter behind the winged east wedge. I was referring to police officer White.

I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

Ron: Perhaps so. However, most of the people who were on the railroad did cross over to watch the Limo speed off to Parkland and were focused on that rather than looking south. If officer White was stationed on the west side of the overpass before the shooting, I too believe he should have seen a shooter stationed in that wing, that is IF he had reason to look in that direction. When the shots were fired, I also first looked toward the north knoll, because that is where all the activity was moving to and focused on. The sounds that day were coming from everywhere and with different tones, echos or whatever. It was the feeling of a shot near us and from which I thought came to our left almost over our heads which caused me to focus on the south knoll at the south side of the underpass. However, if there was another shooter in the parking lot, then that shooter would not have been seen from the west side of the underpass, because that area is much lower that the railroad overpass. And too, that brings to question; when did the shooter get into position in the "wedge" and how long was he there?

Over the years I have pointed out my thoughts and that is where I put the shooter, because that to me would have been the most logical place for a trained sniper to place himself. Perhaps there was no one there in the wedge. Perhaps, he (or they) were in the west end of the south parking lot and we missed him or them earlier. That is one reason, as I have told many over the years; I hate to speculate, because speculations soon-- in time-- become facts..example."you said he was there". None the less, I do believe that a sniper was placed there. I believe that there were two shooters in the south part of Delay Plaza near the railroad tracks. I believe that they were not seen or noticed at the time and to me that is as valid as any other theory. However, because I was there, I am not allowed the luxury of those kinds of speculations. Thanks Ron... good talking with you again... Tosh

[Kathleen Collins]

Bernice, where it is circled is erroneous to me. To our left stand 2 men it seems. Also, there seems to be a man south and on the level of the top of the underpass. It's either a man or it's the top of the lamp pole.

Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B

KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B

I'm glad you posted those photos. Now maybe we can find out what they actually show. This is a very interesting thread.

Kathy C

[Ron Ecker]

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Officer J.C. White was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm, behind the railroad workers on the east side. From his advantage point he could have seen anyone behind the wedged banister on the south end. But he testified that a train blocked his view to the east (and to the south) during the shooting, when there was no train till minutes later.

He must have had a pretty strong reason to risk being charged with perjury about the train. (But the WC of course was perfectly satisfied with his story.)

[Kathleen Collins]

I HAVE FOUND THIS PHOTO FROM A PAST THREAD ON THE EF DONE THE PHOTO I BELIEVE BY JOHN DOLVA IN REFERENCE TO THE GUNSMOKE ODOR..IS THIS ABOUT CORRECT AS IT GOES...THANKS B PS HOPE YOU DO NOT MIND THE POSTING OF SERGIO'S PHOTO IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST ON HERE THAT'S HOW I SNAGGLED IT...

This is the first time (that I can recall) that I've seen the picture of and the name of a man called Sergio involved somehow in the Assassination. Was he a Cuban exile?

Kathy C

[William Plumlee]

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Officer J.C. White was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm, behind the railroad workers on the east side. From his advantage point he could have seen anyone behind the wedged banister on the south end. But he testified that a train blocked his view to the east (and to the south) during the shooting, when there was no train till minutes later.

He must have had a pretty strong reason to risk being charged with perjury about the train. (But the WC of course was perfectly satisfied with his story.)

Thanks Ron. I too had a problem with Whites statements as to the train crossing. Some years after the assassination, when Congressman Thomas Downing had asked me about the statements of a "Dallas Police Officer", (no name given) I was told by some on that staff that a train was moving over the underpass at the time of the assassination. I made the statement to them that there was no train at the time the shots were fired on the underpass. That was before the HSCA was formed and before Richard Sprig? or Gonzalos came on board However, that was not incorporated into my statements at the time and I was discredited. (note: that was long before the pictures of Delay Plaza and its south side was released) Its been my experience that sometimes people do not listen to what is really being said, or read what has really been written, because they have their own preconceive ideas as to what really happened and do not want to be diverted into reality or admit they were wrong.., or maybe for other reasons of which is known only to them.

[William Plumlee]

Bernice, where it is circled is erroneous to me. To our left stand 2 men it seems. Also, there seems to be a man south and on the level of the top of the underpass. It's either a man or it's the top of the lamp pole.

Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B

KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B

I'm glad you posted those photos. Now maybe we can find out what they actually show. This is a very interesting thread.

Kathy C

Kathy: Perhaps I can help, if I can: The shadow of the tree on the south knoll near the steps is the shadow of the tree and its fork. Some have mistook that shadow as the legs of a person, which are not in portion to the body of a person and I never said that shadow was a person. In fact I have always said the opposite. However what is shown is to the right and slightly to the left and of a lighter contrast and shows the legs and upper body of one figure. The lighter areas are the torso and the hands and face. The other figure is behind the shadow of the fork tree and only small parts are shown on the ground shadow of the tree. They are part of a leg and part of a hand or arm. Some years ago when the photo was first released I was asked about it and told that the photo proved that we were not there as I had stated to the FBI some years before.

Sometime later, Tom Wilson was suppose to do work on that photo. I was told by others that he had found two people in the shadows and another above the truck in the south parking lot. Years went by and nothing further came forward as to Tom Wilson's work except a bunch of talk and no substance.

[William Plumlee]

I HAVE FOUND THIS PHOTO FROM A PAST THREAD ON THE EF DONE THE PHOTO I BELIEVE BY JOHN DOLVA IN REFERENCE TO THE GUNSMOKE ODOR..IS THIS ABOUT CORRECT AS IT GOES...THANKS B PS HOPE YOU DO NOT MIND THE POSTING OF SERGIO'S PHOTO IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST ON HERE THAT'S HOW I SNAGGLED IT...

This is the first time (that I can recall) that I've seen the picture of and the name of a man called Sergio involved somehow in the Assassination. Was he a Cuban exile?

Kathy C

Sergio was one of the original Castro rebels who roamed with Raul Castro on the southern section of Cuba in the fifties. Some years after Castro and 1959 he came to America and somehow got connected with Alpha-66 and later the CIA's Miami Station and later to Coral Gables at went into JM/WAVE operations. I never knew his complete name and was told by many researchers who he was, but I never believed any of them because of their motives. There is another picture of Sergio at the "Dark Horse Bar" in West Palm Beach taken by me some years later. He is not Arcacha Smith as some have claimed. He died a few years ago. He was a close friend of, "CARLOS" who saved my life in Cuba more that once. I will always protect his family as I promised him and his mother when they were both alive. And that is about all I have to say about Sergio. He was and a friend and always will be in my prayers.

[Brian Benson]

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left?

Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?

Hello Tosh:

After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif

[William Plumlee]

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left?

Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?

Hello Tosh:

After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif

Thanks Brian: we are almost there. Now if that is true, what would you say the degree of movement to the left was?

If we add that to the slight curve in Elm Street to the left, then how many degrees off centerline would that be as to a shot fired from the north knoll or picket fence? My point and my belief is that if that was the kill shot from the north or picket fence it would be more of a 90 degree side shot and forced the President more toward the left and into Jackie and if missed it would have perhaps hit Jackie instead.. a very risky shot at close range, at best..

[Brian Benson]

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left?

Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?

Hello Tosh:

After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif

Thanks Brian: we are almost there. Now if that is true, what would you say the degree of movement to the left was?

If we add that to the slight curve in Elm Street to the left, then how many degrees off centerline would that be as to a shot fired from the north knoll or picket fence? My point and my belief is that if that was the kill shot from the north or picket fence it would be more of a 90 degree side shot and forced the President more toward the left and into Jackie and if missed it would have perhaps hit Jackie instead.. a very risky shot at close range, at best..

Looks like Mr Roberdeau did this analysis and came to similar conclusions. That JFK was facing slightly to his Left and down at the time of the head shot. His line of sight would have been to the left side of the limo driver, and not straight ahead. Probably facing more SouthEast of the Wedge area. At that angle, a shot from the (north) Grass Knoll would be about 90' or perpendicular. And it can be argued that a shot from the South Knoll could hit the front-right of JFK.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2185/dp...ectoriesyv5.gif

The problem with a South Knoll shooter being the head shot is that the blood splatter is going Left/forward and Left /backward. So even if JFK were facing the South Knoll, it is difficult to explain how a shot from "straight-on" would cause the splatter that was seen.

[Kathleen Collins]

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Officer J.C. White was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm, behind the railroad workers on the east side. From his advantage point he could have seen anyone behind the wedged banister on the south end. But he testified that a train blocked his view to the east (and to the south) during the shooting, when there was no train till minutes later.

He must have had a pretty strong reason to risk being charged with perjury about the train. (But the WC of course was perfectly satisfied with his story.)

Thanks Ron. I too had a problem with Whites statements as to the train crossing. Some years after the assassination, when Congressman Thomas Downing had asked me about the statements of a "Dallas Police Officer", (no name given) I was told by some on that staff that a train was moving over the underpass at the time of the assassination. I made the statement to them that there was no train at the time the shots were fired on the underpass. That was before the HSCA was formed and before Richard Sprig? or Gonzalos came on board However, that was not incorporated into my statements at the time and I was discredited. (note: that was long before the pictures of Delay Plaza and its south side was released) Its been my experience that sometimes people do not listen to what is really being said, or read what has really been written, because they have their own preconceive ideas as to what really happened and do not want to be diverted into reality or admit they were wrong.., or maybe for other reasons of which is known only to them.

Could the shooters from the South Knoll have been placed there because they weren't sure if Jackie was going to sit on the left or the right? If she sat on the right, I guess the South Knoll shooters wouldn't have to worry about her. Obviously, President Kennedy wasn't leaving there alive.

Kathy C

[William Plumlee]

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left?

Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?

Hello Tosh:

After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif

Thanks Brian: we are almost there. Now if that is true, what would you say the degree of movement to the left was?

If we add that to the slight curve in Elm Street to the left, then how many degrees off centerline would that be as to a shot fired from the north knoll or picket fence? My point and my belief is that if that was the kill shot from the north or picket fence it would be more of a 90 degree side shot and forced the President more toward the left and into Jackie and if missed it would have perhaps hit Jackie instead.. a very risky shot at close range, at best..

Looks like Mr Roberdeau did this analysis and came to similar conclusions. That JFK was facing slightly to his Left and down at the time of the head shot. His line of sight would have been to the left side of the limo driver, and not straight ahead. Probably facing more SouthEast of the Wedge area. At that angle, a shot from the (north) Grass Knoll would be about 90' or perpendicular. And it can be argued that a shot from the South Knoll could hit the front-right of JFK.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2185/dp...ectoriesyv5.gif

The problem with a South Knoll shooter being the head shot is that the blood splatter is going Left/forward and Left /backward. So even if JFK were facing the South Knoll, it is difficult to explain how a shot from "straight-on" would cause the splatter that was seen.

One view point might be a back throat shot that hit an artery, before movement to the left or while moving to the left. Or the head shot and spray could also account for the blood splatter. However, I think a good forensic expert could rule on that explanation. I believe someone did do an investigation on blood splatter sometime back. You might want to look that up and compare and see if it might fit. Thanks for your post and interest. Tosh

[Cliff Varnell]

One view point might be a back throat shot

JFK was first struck in the throat circa Z190 and seized up paralyzed

by circa Z230.

He was looking hard to the right at Z190:

I plump for 3 head shots incl south-knoll/grassy knoll/west-TSBD6thfl... fwiw...

Edited February 23, 2010 by Cliff Varnell

[Kathleen Collins]

One view point might be a back throat shot

JFK was first struck in the throat circa Z190 and seized up paralyzed

by circa Z230.

He was looking hard to the right at Z190:

I plump for 3 head shots incl south-knoll/grassy knoll/west-TSBD6thfl... fwiw...

I mentioned this before somewhere else. Look at the people in the upper right corner of this frame. They have their backs to Kennedy. I'll say the Z-film is altered!

Kathy C

[Ron Ecker]

Look at the people in the upper right corner of this frame. They have their backs to Kennedy. I'll say the Z-film is altered!

Kathy C

They probably couldn't see him from there, so why look? They were watching the rest of the motorcade (the newsmen, physician, etc., who were all kept as far away from JFK as possible).