South Knoll Shooter

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, some pages of images that you may want to inspect, if you haven't already:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...m=31&pos=43

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

I was told that The Cuban was making a fist and flashing a Victory sign at the limo to signify attempt 2 or to tell Greer where to stop. If this is true, The Cuban in most probability is "Gator." His V-sign wasn't a V sign at all. He was merely holding up the only 2 fingers he had. (The lower right corner photo)

Also in that photo the Umbrella Man's umbrella seems painted in.

Kathy C

Here is a thought to consider: In picture #3 where all the people are running toward the north end of the underpass, could it be that they were running after the limo as it headed under the rail road to see what the results of the shooting caused? Even the railroad workers cross over to the other side to see the Limo speed off toward Parkland. What did they hope to see? The Limo? Or had bad the shooting was?..., or if the President had indeed been hit? Some who had ran toward that direction said they thought the shots came from that direction near the grassy north knoll and the fence and that is why they ran to that location. I am familiar with the Warren Report and what some say as to why they ran to that location. Others had said a different reason why they ran to that location. Perhaps selective testimony was used in the recap of events. Its possible.

I think I would have been going the other way if I thought someone, or a nutcase, had shot at the President from there and might still be there. As to the motorcycle patrolman? If I were him I too might think, after seeing people running in that direction, that they might be trying to catch the shooter, or thought the shots came from over there and he drove up the slop or catch the shooter. Could it not be that most were only trying to see what was happening inside the Limo after the shots had been fired at the President?

I know what the record says. But who established the record that day? Was it an accurate account of events as they happened? Could the echo effect had something to do with the direction of the shooting? What about the sound of a firecracker after some of the shots, or at the time of the shots? Could that have been the "windshield" being shot and hit? I find it difficult to accept that a shooter behind the fence less that ten feet away from some who were standing in front of the allege shooter or slightly to the side watching the Parade also ran toward the triple underpass. Would they not have turned and moved toward the shooter at the fence, or away from the shooter, or just hit the ground and covered their heads? Or perhaps ran the other way to get out of the way or another lunatic shot?

If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

P.S. As to officer White being able to see behind the wedge bannister and pillar, you have to take into account that the railroad bed was raised some four or five feet above the foundation base with base rock that supported the load of train traffic in those days. If he was standing on or near the base of the bridge below the railroad grade, then he could not see someone crouched or prong in that area of the wedge and banister pillar. That would be a perfect place for a shooter to hide himself ..., even from view of the south parking lot which is lower than the bridge foundation base. I can see two shooters there.. one in the parking lot and the one positioned in the wedge. Perhaps you would have to go to the Plaza today in order to get a perspective on this. Keep in mind that today the railroad tracks (Metro tracks) are about two feet lower than they were in 1963.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

FWIW, not if the sniper was crouched or prone

What difference would that make if the person was in White's line of sight behind the banister? If prone, the person could be even more likely to be spotted, since his body would be extended westward.

Ron:

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Doug Weldon

Patrolman J.C.White was stationed on the bridge/overpass at the west end during his testimony to the W.C. he said he did not see the shooting as a train was blocking his view at that very moment .I thought it was several minutes befroe a train passed over the bridge?

Fact: It was sometime after the shooting that the train was parked or passed over the bridge as the railroad yard logs supported. I think the tramps were suppose to have been taken from one of the box cars on that train or perhaps another located in the switching yard. Some of this was covered a few days ago on back post. Office White was located over Elm street on the west side of the overpass some ninty-five feet plus northwest of the south end of the overpass a few minutes before the motorcade drove into the Plaza area. Some in the DPD have said he had crossed over the tracks to the east side of the overpass above elm with the railroad workers, as JFK approached.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Plumlee

[David Andrews]

Re: Tosh's post #94 -- addressed to all...

Any relation between why people ran toward the north knoll and why Charles Hester ran to look out of the pergola windows (if that is indeed what he did)?

[William Plumlee]

Re: Tosh's post #94 -- addressed to all...

Any relation between why people ran toward the north knoll and why Charles Hester ran to look out of the pergola windows (if that is indeed what he did)?

Good point. And too, would he not have been rather close to Zapruder who was above the crowd and in a better position to see and hear the direction of the shots if they had been a few feet to his right?

Another thought. Maybe Hester was trying to get inside a building for safety from possible other erratic shootings.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Plumlee

[Cliff Varnell]

If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

Not me.

The more I look at the case the less of a mystery it becomes. Others report

the exact opposite experience studying the case, but that's probably because

they spend too much time studying the head wounds.

No, I've found that the witnesses tell us all we need to know, pretty much.

The witnesses, the Dealey Plaza films/photographs, and the properly prepared

contemporaneous documents answer all the key questions, as near as I can tell.

Especially this witness: Rosemary Willis.

From the HSCA report "Presence of Possible Gunman on Grassy Knoll"

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm

Ms. Willis...gave no information on the direction or location of the shots, but stated

that her father became upset when the policemen in the area appeared to run away

from where he thought the shots came from; that is, they were running away from

the grassy knoll.

This is the typical nutteresque interpretation of Rosemary's comments, from

Wikipedia:

Rosemary was also documented in the HSCA report that her father, military veteran

Phillip Willis, became upset when the Dallas policemen, sheriffs, and detectives --who

first quickly ran onto the grassy knoll where he thought the shots came from-- then the

authorities ran away from the grassy knoll.

Bollocks!

Since when does any American -- much less a Texan like Phil Willis -- get angry

when the sheriff's posse rides out after the bad guys?

Seems to me like Rosemary and Phillip Willis saw guys dressed as cops immediately

leave their ambush positions.

What do you think, Tosh?

Edited February 26, 2010 by Cliff Varnell

[William Plumlee]

If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

Not me.

The more I look at the case the less of a mystery it becomes. Others report

the exact opposite experience studying the case, but that's probably because

they spend too much time studying the head wounds.

No, I've found that the witnesses tell us all we need to know, pretty much.

The witnesses, the Dealey Plaza films/photographs, and the properly prepared

contemporaneous documents answer all the key questions, as near as I can tell.

Especially this witness: Rosemary Willis.

From the HSCA report "Presence of Possible Gunman on Grassy Knoll"

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm

Ms. Willis...gave no information on the direction or location of the shots, but stated

that her father became upset when the policemen in the area appeared to run away

from where he thought the shots came from; that is, they were running away from

the grassy knoll.

This is the typical nutteresque interpretation of Rosemary's comments, from

Wikipedia:

Rosemary was also documented in the HSCA report that her father, military veteran

Phillip Willis, became upset when the Dallas policemen, sheriffs, and detectives --who

first quickly ran onto the grassy knoll where he thought the shots came from-- then the

authorities ran away from the grassy knoll.

Bollocks!

Since when does any American -- much less a Texan like Phil Willis -- get angry

when the sheriff's posse rides out after the bad guys?

Seems to me like Rosemary and Phillip Willis saw guys dressed as cops immediately

leave their ambush positions.

What do you think, Tosh?

Perhaps they were really DPD or law enforcement and went toward where they thought shots were fired and then quickly corrected their movements to another location, or got cold feet and ran for protection.

[Cliff Varnell]

Perhaps they were really DPD or law enforcement and went toward where they thought shots were fired and then quickly corrected their movements to another location, or got cold feet and ran for protection.

Hmmm...Can't square that with Phil Willis getting angry with cops running from

the shooting positions.

I mean, how much suicidal bravery would have it required for average citizens

of Dallas to accuse guys dressed as cops of shooting Kennedy?

[William Plumlee]

Perhaps they were really DPD or law enforcement and went toward where they thought shots were fired and then quickly corrected their movements to another location, or got cold feet and ran for protection.

Hmmm...Can't square that with Phil Willis getting angry with cops running from

the shooting positions.

I mean, how much suicidal bravery would have it required for average citizens

of Dallas to accuse guys dressed as cops of shooting Kennedy?

I was being a little "Devil's Advocate" there. If true that would prove conspiracy right? In Dallas in those days DPD could do no wrong. I know I was raised there in the forties, fifties. I went to juvenile hall when a Dallas cop caught me drinking out of a colored marked drinking fountain in a park on a hot August day. My dad had to come down and get me out. I was ten years old. It cost my father ten dollars to get me out. Sorry, I drifted off again.

[Cliff Varnell]

Perhaps they were really DPD or law enforcement and went toward where they thought shots were fired and then quickly corrected their movements to another location, or got cold feet and ran for protection.

Hmmm...Can't square that with Phil Willis getting angry with cops running from

the shooting positions.

I mean, how much suicidal bravery would have it required for average citizens

of Dallas to accuse guys dressed as cops of shooting Kennedy?

I was being a little "Devil's Advocate" there. If true that would prove conspiracy right? In Dallas in those days DPD could do no wrong. I know I was raised there in the forties, fifties. I went to juvenile hall when a Dallas cop caught me drinking out of a colored marked drinking fountain in a park on a hot August day. My dad had to come down and get me out. I was ten years old. It cost my father ten dollars to get me out. Sorry, I drifted off again.

That's why it makes sense to me that the shooters on the north knoll dressed

as cops -- who would have the guts to accuse a Dallas cop knowing full well

they wouldn't be believed?

And Jack White et al did a compelling study of Badgeman -- I chalk up the cop-disguised

shooter scenario as a very high likelihood.

[Bernice Moore]

TOSH IF YOU ARE AROUND...WOULD YOU KNOW IF JIM HICKS WAS WHAT HE SAID HE WAS THAT DAY WORDS TO THE EFFECT RADIO CO-ORDINATOR OR SOME SUCH...HERE HE IS BELOW IN WILLIS..WALKING AWAY IN THE TAN COLORED CLOTHES..LAST MAN ON THE RIGHT..I KEPT FORGETTING TO ASK YOU... .THANKS B..

Edited February 27, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[William Plumlee]

I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

See also the DCM thread for more information on the south knoll photo as well as Feb 18 2010, 10:41 PM

Post #16 south knoll shooters; picture #5

Edited February 27, 2010 by William Plumlee

[William Plumlee]

I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

See also the DCM thread for more information on the south knoll photo as well as Feb 18 2010, 10:41 PM

Post #16 south knoll shooters; picture #5

I took the day, this Sunday the end of February, 2010 to review the forum and back postings. It was not easy; especially when some in the past have accused me of evading the issues and deleting my post. Most of the threads I posted quickly went to the rear with the gear, never to be heard from again. Similar to the South Knoll threads of today.

So much information has been lost or refused to even be looked at or read, because of whatever reasons. Below are an example of but a few: There is more, much more... seems some only want to argue and flip flop the information, rather than to take it into research: Not bitching..., just wondering why:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12477&st=15

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12045&st=15

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12045&st=30

[Kathleen Collins]

Tosh, some pages of images that you may want to inspect, if you haven't already:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...m=31&pos=43

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

I was told that The Cuban was making a fist and flashing a Victory sign at the limo to signify attempt 2 or to tell Greer where to stop. If this is true, The Cuban in most probability is "Gator." His V-sign wasn't a V sign at all. He was merely holding up the only 2 fingers he had. (The lower right corner photo)

Also in that photo the Umbrella Man's umbrella seems painted in.

Kathy C

Here is a thought to consider: In picture #3 where all the people are running toward the north end of the underpass, could it be that they were running after the limo as it headed under the rail road to see what the results of the shooting caused? Even the railroad workers cross over to the other side to see the Limo speed off toward Parkland. What did they hope to see? The Limo? Or had bad the shooting was?..., or if the President had indeed been hit? Some who had ran toward that direction said they thought the shots came from that direction near the grassy north knoll and the fence and that is why they ran to that location. I am familiar with the Warren Report and what some say as to why they ran to that location. Others had said a different reason why they ran to that location. Perhaps selective testimony was used in the recap of events. Its possible.

I think I would have been going the other way if I thought someone, or a nutcase, had shot at the President from there and might still be there. As to the motorcycle patrolman? If I were him I too might think, after seeing people running in that direction, that they might be trying to catch the shooter, or thought the shots came from over there and he drove up the slop or catch the shooter. Could it not be that most were only trying to see what was happening inside the Limo after the shots had been fired at the President?

I know what the record says. But who established the record that day? Was it an accurate account of events as they happened? Could the echo effect had something to do with the direction of the shooting? What about the sound of a firecracker after some of the shots, or at the time of the shots? Could that have been the "windshield" being shot and hit? I find it difficult to accept that a shooter behind the fence less that ten feet away from some who were standing in front of the allege shooter or slightly to the side watching the Parade also ran toward the triple underpass. Would they not have turned and moved toward the shooter at the fence, or away from the shooter, or just hit the ground and covered their heads? Or perhaps ran the other way to get out of the way or another lunatic shot?

If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

P.S. As to officer White being able to see behind the wedge bannister and pillar, you have to take into account that the railroad bed was raised some four or five feet above the foundation base with base rock that supported the load of train traffic in those days. If he was standing on or near the base of the bridge below the railroad grade, then he could not see someone crouched or prong in that area of the wedge and banister pillar. That would be a perfect place for a shooter to hide himself ..., even from view of the south parking lot which is lower than the bridge foundation base. I can see two shooters there.. one in the parking lot and the one positioned in the wedge. Perhaps you would have to go to the Plaza today in order to get a perspective on this. Keep in mind that today the railroad tracks (Metro tracks) are about two feet lower than they were in 1963.

Tosh, I was on Google Earth Street View and got a good look of Dealey Plaza. I cannot see how anyone could shoot President Kennedy from the South Knoll. It would really have to be a magic bullet. However, underneath the Triple Underpass, there was plenty of opportunities from a gunman to shoot at the President. The walls had "slots" in them where someone could stand within and hide.

There is a man running towards the Assassination, crossing over to Main and Commerce and Houston. He had been down by the Underpass and Elm. Something frightened him. He is seen in 3 films, including the Zapruder film. Early in the afternoon, the FBI got a call from a man saying he had been down by the Underpass and saw "signals." He didn't give his name. Now if the Underpass was OK, he could have stayed hidden there if he saw signals and heard shots. But he ran toward the Assassination.

Kathy C

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, some pages of images that you may want to inspect, if you haven't already:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...m=31&pos=43

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

I was told that The Cuban was making a fist and flashing a Victory sign at the limo to signify attempt 2 or to tell Greer where to stop. If this is true, The Cuban in most probability is "Gator." His V-sign wasn't a V sign at all. He was merely holding up the only 2 fingers he had. (The lower right corner photo)

Also in that photo the Umbrella Man's umbrella seems painted in.

Kathy C

Here is a thought to consider: In picture #3 where all the people are running toward the north end of the underpass, could it be that they were running after the limo as it headed under the rail road to see what the results of the shooting caused? Even the railroad workers cross over to the other side to see the Limo speed off toward Parkland. What did they hope to see? The Limo? Or had bad the shooting was?..., or if the President had indeed been hit? Some who had ran toward that direction said they thought the shots came from that direction near the grassy north knoll and the fence and that is why they ran to that location. I am familiar with the Warren Report and what some say as to why they ran to that location. Others had said a different reason why they ran to that location. Perhaps selective testimony was used in the recap of events. Its possible.

I think I would have been going the other way if I thought someone, or a nutcase, had shot at the President from there and might still be there. As to the motorcycle patrolman? If I were him I too might think, after seeing people running in that direction, that they might be trying to catch the shooter, or thought the shots came from over there and he drove up the slop or catch the shooter. Could it not be that most were only trying to see what was happening inside the Limo after the shots had been fired at the President?

I know what the record says. But who established the record that day? Was it an accurate account of events as they happened? Could the echo effect had something to do with the direction of the shooting? What about the sound of a firecracker after some of the shots, or at the time of the shots? Could that have been the "windshield" being shot and hit? I find it difficult to accept that a shooter behind the fence less that ten feet away from some who were standing in front of the allege shooter or slightly to the side watching the Parade also ran toward the triple underpass. Would they not have turned and moved toward the shooter at the fence, or away from the shooter, or just hit the ground and covered their heads? Or perhaps ran the other way to get out of the way or another lunatic shot?

If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

P.S. As to officer White being able to see behind the wedge bannister and pillar, you have to take into account that the railroad bed was raised some four or five feet above the foundation base with base rock that supported the load of train traffic in those days. If he was standing on or near the base of the bridge below the railroad grade, then he could not see someone crouched or prong in that area of the wedge and banister pillar. That would be a perfect place for a shooter to hide himself ..., even from view of the south parking lot which is lower than the bridge foundation base. I can see two shooters there.. one in the parking lot and the one positioned in the wedge. Perhaps you would have to go to the Plaza today in order to get a perspective on this. Keep in mind that today the railroad tracks (Metro tracks) are about two feet lower than they were in 1963.

Tosh, I was on Google Earth Street View and got a good look of Dealey Plaza. I cannot see how anyone could shoot President Kennedy from the South Knoll. It would really have to be a magic bullet. However, underneath the Triple Underpass, there was plenty of opportunities from a gunman to shoot at the President. The walls had "slots" in them where someone could stand within and hide.

There is a man running towards the Assassination, crossing over to Main and Commerce and Houston. He had been down by the Underpass and Elm. Something frightened him. He is seen in 3 films, including the Zapruder film. Early in the afternoon, the FBI got a call from a man saying he had been down by the Underpass and saw "signals." He didn't give his name. Now if the Underpass was OK, he could have stayed hidden there if he saw signals and heard shots. But he ran toward the Assassination.

Kathy C

"..underneath the Triple Underpass, there was plenty of opportunities from a gunman to shoot at the President. The walls had "slots" in them where someone could stand within and hide...".

It would make a good debate. However, If someone was shooting from that location they would be below the limo. The street slops down into the overpass. At the time of the shots, the limo was higher, or above this allege shooter. Two other matters have to be taken into consideration: The angle of Elm street and its slight turn to the left and the location and elevation of the south end upper pillar of the underpass. The Limo would be perhaps a few feet higher, or almost level with the south end of the underpass at the time of the shots. I believe it is a little bit higher than where the Limo was at the time of the shots. Doug posted a view from that location and I believe the position was slightly above the Limo at the time of the shots. As to the throat shot, if one, I believe it came from that location, over or through the windshield, or perhaps missed. And two, #2, as the Limo came from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, I believe Kennedy was slightly turned to his left and leaning slightly toward Jackie. (before he went behind the sign he was turned a little to his right before the shot) I have ask the experts to survey this via film and topo... but as yet, only speculation. I remember the position at the south side in the wedge, to be slightly elevated, because after we left the Plaza we had a slight incline to walk up to the overpass base and the rail road tracks. And too, we were a few feet above the man in the pickup truck, who was almost level with the killzone. The south wedge and pillar were a few feet higher than he and a little higher than Sergio and I.

I am not sure what you mean about "Google Earth". I do not think that would give a good perspective as to depth and alignment. Perhaps, I am not following. I asked sometime back if someone could or would take a look today from the south knoll, as well as the parking lot and the "Wedge and Pillar" of the underpass.., but nobody has responded and the thread has been dropped. Of course I am working off memory and feelings. I have been back there hundreds of times after the shooting. The first impressions, of that day, are still fresh in my memory.

Thanks for your input and interest. Tosh

Edited February 28, 2010 by William Plumlee

[Kathleen Collins]

I am not sure what you mean about "Google Earth". I do not think that would give a good perspective as to depth and alignment. Perhaps, I am not following. I asked sometime back if someone could or would take a look today from the south knoll, as well as the parking lot and the "Wedge and Pillar" of the underpass.., but nobody has responded and the thread has been dropped. Of course I am working off memory and feelings. I have been back there hundreds of times after the shooting. The first impressions, of that day, are still fresh in my memory.

Thanks for your input and interest. Tosh

Tosh, in your browser, type in "google earth street view." This will take you to a sight about how to use google earth. Then type in : "Elm St and Houston St, Dallas, TX." It's really a lot of fun. You use your mouse to get around.

Kathy C