Question for Tink

[Pat Speer]

Tink, in Six Seconds in Dallas, you make what I consider to be an embarrassing mistake. You take the FBI report on F. Lee Mudd, which reads as follows:

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

And report it on page 132 as follows: (changes highlighted):

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noted several broken windows on the fourth floor of the Dal-Tex Building, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building... (He) stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the Dal-Tex Building."

For some reason you entered your conjecture Mudd was talking about the Dal-Tex building into the report, even though a full reading of the FBI report indicates he was talking about the TSBD.. This is something I'd expect a Posner to do, but not you.

In any event, I have now proposed that Mudd was also not where you thought he was, but was where his statement said he was--in front of the President when the fatal shots were fired. This has led to the suspicion of a number of researchers that Mudd is in fact the man in red standing by Hudson in the Muchmore film. Hudson said this man was a young man.

And, sure enough, there is apparently a Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport, in his early 70's. The thought occurs that with your gumshoe background you are the perfect person to contact Mudd and finally get his story, unfiltered by the FBI. Are you game?

Edited February 22, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Ken Rheberg]

Tink, in Six Seconds in Dallas, you make what I consider to be an embarrassing mistake. You take the FBI report on F. Lee Mudd, which reads as follows:

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building."

And report it on page 132 as follows: (changes highlighted):

"He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noted several broken windows on the fourth floor of the Dal-Tex Building, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building... (He) stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the Dal-Tex Building."

For some reason you entered your conjecture Mudd was talking about the Dal-Tex building into the report, even though a full reading of the FBI report indicates he was talking about the TSBD.. This is something I'd expect a Posner to do, but not you.

In any event, I have now proposed that Mudd was also not where you thought he was, but was where his statement said he was--in front of the President when the fatal shots were fired. This has led to the suspicion of a number of researchers that Mudd is in fact the man in red standing by Hudson in the Muchmore film. Hudson said this man was a young man.

And, sure enough, there is apparently a Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport, in his early 70's. The thought occurs that with your gumshoe background you are the perfect person to contact Mudd and finally get his story, unfiltered by the FBI. Are you game?

Pat,

There's only one Francis Mudd from Shreveport. That's the one I was referring to in your other thread. And he died in Shreveport, the location of F. Lee Mudd's business, in 1974 at the age of 71. He would have been 60 at the time of the assassination.

I've done some additional investigation on this since your threads began last week, and the deceased Francis Mudd's middle name appears to indeed be Lee. So Francis Mudd of Shreveport was Francis Lee Mudd. And Francis Lee Mudd would then be assassination witness F. Lee Mudd who was sixty years old back in November of 1963.

F. Lee Mudd could only have been Redshirt Man, which means Redshirt Man was 60 years old that day. This supports the evidence as laid out in the F. Lee Mudd thread. Redshirt Man was old. And Running Man was the one who told Emmett Hudson to lay down while taking cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken

[Josiah Thompson]

This is an interesting point you raise, Pat. Look, if I made a mistake I'm perfectly willing to admit it after all these years. However, I'm not sure I made a mistake.

In the back of my mind still sits the notion that some windows (perhaps even on the fourth floor) of the Dal-Tex Building were broken while none in the TSBD were broken. Surely this is something that could be definitively answered through photos. Secondly, I note that I gave two page references to Mudd in Six Seconds: 24H538 and Archives, CD 385, p. 18. The later reference document (CD 385, p.18) is not reproduced in Six Seconds although other documents from CD 385 are. It would appear that CD 385 contains FBI 302s from the Dallas area. Since 24H538 is a 302 authored by an agent from the Shreveport, Louisiana field office, the CD 385 document may consist of an earlier interview of Mudd in Dallas. If anone can find that document, it might shed further light on the question.

If windows in the Dal-Tex building were broken and none in the TSBD were broken, then it would be fair to presume that Mudd was referring to the Dal-Tex building. Even in that case, however, I should have put "Dal-Tex" in brackets to signify that it was not present in the text of the 302. If this is not the case and if CD 385, page 18 does not specify the Dal-Tex building, then my blunder is obvious and significant. I'd like to know the answer.

I took a shot at F. Lee Mudd in both Shreveport and Keithville, Louisiana and came up blank.

I'm inclined to think that your notion that Mudd may very well be the guy in the red shirt near Hudson is pretty good.

Josiah Thompson

[Ken Rheberg]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

[Guest Tom Scully]

Guess he wasn't partial to his given name. I wouldn't describe 60 years and 10 days as an "old".man.

FRANCIS MUDD 12 Nov 1903 Dec 1974 71108 (Shreveport, Caddo, LA) (none specified) 438-12-XXXX Louisiana

Edited February 23, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Pat Speer]

Forum members:

I've just confirmed through an extremely reliable source close to F. Lee Mudd that Mr. Mudd was indeed a witness to the assassination and that he did die back in 1974. That means he was 60 on 11/22/63. Redshirt Man was an old man.

I'll make sure this is posted on both Mudd threads.

Ken

Ken, I have this discussion going on three forums and someone on another forum found a reference to a Francis Mudd, Jr. I then went to a people finder site and it confirmed that there are two Francis Mudds in Shreveport, one who died in 74, and another one--obviously his son--in his 70's and still living. I think this is red shirt man, but it may very well have been his father.

I suspect some researcher sometime somewhere looked up F. Lee Mudd and found he was dead, and assumed that this was THE F. Lee Mudd who was in Dallas. It may very well have been a family business, with the son doing the purchasing for the store. If so, Jr. was the witness, not senior.

[Pat Speer]

This is an interesting point you raise, Pat. Look, if I made a mistake I'm perfectly willing to admit it after all these years. However, I'm not sure I made a mistake.

In the back of my mind still sits the notion that some windows (perhaps even on the fourth floor) of the Dal-Tex Building were broken while none in the TSBD were broken. Surely this is something that could be definitively answered through photos. Secondly, I note that I gave two page references to Mudd in Six Seconds: 24H538 and Archives, CD 385, p. 18. The later reference document (CD 385, p.18) is not reproduced in Six Seconds although other documents from CD 385 are. It would appear that CD 385 contains FBI 302s from the Dallas area. Since 24H538 is a 302 authored by an agent from the Shreveport, Louisiana field office, the CD 385 document may consist of an earlier interview of Mudd in Dallas. If anone can find that document, it might shed further light on the question.

If windows in the Dal-Tex building were broken and none in the TSBD were broken, then it would be fair to presume that Mudd was referring to the Dal-Tex building. Even in that case, however, I should have put "Dal-Tex" in brackets to signify that it was not present in the text of the 302. If this is not the case and if CD 385, page 18 does not specify the Dal-Tex building, then my blunder is obvious and significant. I'd like to know the answer.

I took a shot at F. Lee Mudd in both Shreveport and Keithville, Louisiana and came up blank.

I'm inclined to think that your notion that Mudd may very well be the guy in the red shirt near Hudson is pretty good.

Josiah Thompson

Tink, the report in CD 385 is the same report as in the WC's volumes. I suspect what happened is that while researching your book you put your speculation that Mudd was talking about the Dal-Tex into the text of the FBI's report, and that later, when presenting this in your book as a verbatim quote from the report, you'd forgot you'd done so. Still another possibility is that you had a copy of the report in which the words Dal-Tex actually appeared, and that this report was later changed, a la the report written by Vincent Drain on the paper bag. If you still have your source materials, it might be worth a look...

In any event, your speculation was most probably incorrect. The last part of the FBI's report on Mudd reads:

"He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building. Mr. Mudd stated that he remained in the vicinity for possibly three or four minutes, after which he walked back toward the main part of town, where he had parked his car. He did not remain to talk to police or Secret Service men because he did not feel he had seen anything that would be of assistance to them. Mr. Mudd said that he was not with anyone else at the time this occurred. He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination. Mr. Mudd said he could furnish no further information regarding this matter."

The clear implication from this is that Mudd felt the building from which the shots were fired was the TSBD. But maybe the FBI was playing games...

P.S. F. Lee Mudd was Francis Lee Mudd, and another researcher has found evidence there was a Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. One website I looked at had a 71 year old Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport. As a result I think Jr. is alive, and that he now goes by simply "Francis Mudd."

[Jack White]

He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination.

Redshirtman is NOT standing near the TSBD.

[Pat Speer]

He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination.

Redshirtman is NOT standing near the TSBD.

Well, then, what was the nearest building to him?

[Ken Rheberg]

He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination.

Redshirtman is NOT standing near the TSBD.

"Near" according to F. Lee Mudd was 75 to 100 feet west of the TSBD.

Ken

[Ken Rheberg]

P.S. F. Lee Mudd was Francis Lee Mudd, and another researcher has found evidence there was a Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. One website I looked at had a 71 year old Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport. As a result I think Jr. is alive, and that he now goes by simply "Francis Mudd."

Pat,

I've made the contact. Assassination witness F. Lee Mudd is deceased. Period. He died back in 1974. To say the source for this is reliable is an understatement. It doesn't get any better.

Running Man was Hudson's "young fellow" in his late twenties.

Redshirt Man was F. Lee Mudd. 60 years old.

Ken

[Pat Speer]

P.S. F. Lee Mudd was Francis Lee Mudd, and another researcher has found evidence there was a Francis Lee Mudd, Jr. One website I looked at had a 71 year old Francis Mudd still living in Shreveport. As a result I think Jr. is alive, and that he now goes by simply "Francis Mudd."

Pat,

I've made the contact. Assassination witness F. Lee Mudd is deceased. Period. He died back in 1974. To say the source for this is reliable is an understatement. It doesn't get any better.

Running Man was Hudson's "young fellow" in his late twenties.

Redshirt Man was F. Lee Mudd. 60 years old.

Ken

So, you spoke to Jr. and he says it is his dad in the photos? Let's be clear.

[Ken Rheberg]

There is a video on Youtube, where a young man claims to be the son of red shirt man, according to the commentator.

No names are mentioned for the son, or red shirt man by the commentator. I watched this video about a month ago, it's a home made production. If I find it, i'll post the link.

Duncan

It better be an old, old video.

[Todd W. Vaughan]

There is a video on Youtube, where a young man claims to be the son of red shirt man, according to the commentator.

No names are mentioned for the son, or red shirt man by the commentator. I watched this video about a month ago, it's a home made production. If I find it, i'll post the link.

Duncan

Duncan and all,

My two cents, FWIW.

There was, some years back some confusion over which man was Emmett Hudson. As I recall, according to Greg Jaynes Emmett Hudson's son was claiming that his father was the man in the red shirt, and was adament about it. I know nothing more than that, but I wonder if this relates to your video.

My own opinion is based on Hudson's identification of himself for the FBI in the Moorman photo as the man with the hat - that's enough to convince me THAT is Emmett Hudson.

Todd

Edited February 23, 2010 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Josiah Thompson]

Tink, the report in CD 385 is the same report as in the WC's volumes. I suspect what happened is that while researching your book you put your speculation that Mudd was talking about the Dal-Tex into the text of the FBI's report, and that later, when presenting this in your book as a verbatim quote from the report, you'd forgot you'd done so. Still another possibility is that you had a copy of the report in which the words Dal-Tex actually appeared, and that this report was later changed, a la the report written by Vincent Drain on the paper bag. If you still have your source materials, it might be worth a look...

In any event, your speculation was most probably incorrect. The last part of the FBI's report on Mudd reads:

"He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from. He looked around him, and he recalled that in looking toward the building nearby, he noticed several broken windows on about the fourth floor, and the thought occurred to him that possibly the shots had been fired through these broken windows. However, he did not observe any smoke, nor did he see anyone at the windows, nor did he notice any motion within the building. He said the building appeared to be abandoned. Subsequent to the shooting, he did not notice anyone enter or leave the building. Mr. Mudd stated that when the shots were fired, they sounded as if they came from the direction of the building. Mr. Mudd stated that he remained in the vicinity for possibly three or four minutes, after which he walked back toward the main part of town, where he had parked his car. He did not remain to talk to police or Secret Service men because he did not feel he had seen anything that would be of assistance to them. Mr. Mudd said that he was not with anyone else at the time this occurred. He said he later made another trip to Dallas, accompanied by his wife, and he showed her the place where the assassination occurred, and he observed the Texas School Book Depository building and he is confident this is the same building he was standing near at the time of the assassination. Mr. Mudd said he could furnish no further information regarding this matter."

The clear implication from this is that Mudd felt the building from which the shots were fired was the TSBD. But maybe the FBI was playing games...

You may be right, Pat. I take it that you looked at CD 385, p. 18 and verified that it is just another copy of the 302 filed by the Shrevesport agent.

I have no relevant research materials on this after all these years. I still have in the back of my head that Mudd's description of the broken windows clearly did not fit the TSBD and did fit the Dal-Tex building. Maybe Duncan or Robin might have photos to show this one way or another.

Looks to me like you've at least verified that F. Lee Mudd died in 1974. Nice going.

Josiah Thompson