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Tosh, do you remember anyone you were flying in or out with large communication devices such as that which seems to be under 'Gaitor's' jacket? Did Sergio have one that size and shape?

Also, you mentioned long ago that when the plane you were on was waiting to leave [delayed in leaving] you heard some talk that while not clear someONE was being waited for and some aspects of what was said made you think it might have been Oswald they were waiting for. Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that?

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"... Tosh, do you remember anyone you were flying in or out with large communication devices such as that which seems to be under 'Gaitor's' jacket? Did Sergio have one that size and shape? ...".

Anws; YES. If you remember I told you that, "...the communications were not in place and things were all F'ed up... nobody was where they were supposed to be and the radios did not work right..". (note; the 'crystals' in the had held (walki-talkie type radios of the time) were not set to the same frequencies and some of the team could not communicate with each other because of this) Also, when you were working with Tom Wilson on the south side photo, I told you, and when I did talk very briefly on the phone in Boulder Colorado with Tom while you were there, I told him about the radio's and that Sergio had a radio and I had a clip board. This was in reference to the two objects Tom had said he had found in the picture that were in our hands.

You said I had a camara and I said after a heated debate that you were wrong, it was a "clip board for taking notes and diagrams. Sergio did have a walkie-talkie type radio. That was one reason I later told some that I thought it was Gator sitting on the curb .., and I also told you, ".. he (Gator) had a radio in his pocket", That was when Tom and others thought Gator had a gun..., and you sometime later,said it was indeed a gun. We debated, to put it mildly, that issue. I said it WAS not a gun. I again said no you it was a radio. I do remember.

Question: "...heard some talk that while not clear someONE was being waited for and some aspects of what was said made you think it might have been Oswald they were waiting for. ...".

That was some years later that I said, in answer to that question: "... I said it COULD have been Oswald, but I did not know for sure and that would be speculation on my part".... I did say I thought we were waiting on a "Marine", which Could have been Oswald but I did not know for sure. ( heard from basic talk from some of the crew) The impressions I had at the time there was no name that I knew of. As to who we were waiting for, in my mind at that time, it could have been anybody. I did think, in a passing thought, that it could have been Roselli. But nobody responded to that answer, or wainted to hear that.

Question: Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that?

Answer: Yes. From what I remember the flight out of Dallas (no flight plan filed) was to originally fly back to Houston Texas where (I thought) I would go back to Florida on another flight and the DC-3 would be flown back to West Palm by an Eastern Airline pilot. I was told another flight out of Red Bird went to Wichita Falls, Texas near the AFB there.

Sometimes people just don't listen or read what is said. From my view point I feel some answers they do not want to hear or read. Perhaps because they just don't fit into the scope of things as they see them.

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I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements.

Free Louis Witt!

The Umbrella Man takes a bad rap in my book. Here's Rosemary Willis to the HSCA:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm

The Presence of Possible Gunman on the Grassy Knoll

Rosemary Willis...noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous." One was a man near

the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening and closing

the umbrella than dropping to the ground like everyone else at the time of the shots. The

other was a person who was standing just behind the concrete wall down by the triple

underpass. That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

Compare Rosemary's description of UM with Witt's description of his actions to

the HSCA:

"I think I went sort of maybe halfway up the grassy area (on the north side of Elm Street),

somewhere in that vicinity. I am pretty sure I sat down....(When the motorcade approached) I think I got up

and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward,

walking toward the street....Whereas other people I understand saw the President shot and his movements;

I did not see this because of this thing (the umbrella) in front of me....My view of the car during that length

of time was blocked by the umbrella's being open."

Louis Witt has been accused of being a xxxx because he had his umbrella opened

as the limousine passed by.

But just because his umbrella was up in time to see JFK doesn't necessarily mean

he managed to locate JFK in time to see the President get hit in the throat. Witt wasn't

paying sufficient attention to JFK -- as per Rosemary Willis and Witt himself.

On another thread awhile back I commented on UM and DCM/Gator:

UM is a major rabbit hole, folks. DCM sat down next to him because DCM wasn't

sure if Witt was a civilian or a redundant signalman and was probably startled by

UM more than anything.

This isn't far from Tosh's view of the interaction between UM and DCM/Gator. After

reading Al Carrier's comments in Ron's article I've come around to Tosh's view on this.

Al Carrier, paraphrased by Ron Ecker: "[W]ould shooters need such a signaler?

Could not shooters more easily see for themselves, through their sights, whether more shots

were needed?"

Wouldn't the shooters have a spotter with binoculars alongside them, instead of a

signalman in the street?

Why would a signalman carry a radio that went unused during the shooting?

If UM and DCM were perps why would they stick around the crime scene?

In my view the actions of DCM/Gator are more consistent with what Tosh describes,

an abort-team member with a radio who latched on to the suspicious, "conspicuous"

(but innocuous) Louis Witt.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements.

Free Louis Witt!

The Umbrella Man takes a bad rap in my book. Here's Rosemary Willis to the HSCA:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm

The Presence of Possible Gunman on the Grassy Knoll

Rosemary Willis...noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous." One was a man near

the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening and closing

the umbrella than dropping to the ground like everyone else at the time of the shots. The

other was a person who was standing just behind the concrete wall down by the triple

underpass. That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

Compare Rosemary's description of UM with Witt's description of his actions to

the HSCA:

"I think I went sort of maybe halfway up the grassy area (on the north side of Elm Street),

somewhere in that vicinity. I am pretty sure I sat down....(When the motorcade approached) I think I got up

and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward,

walking toward the street....Whereas other people I understand saw the President shot and his movements;

I did not see this because of this thing (the umbrella) in front of me....My view of the car during that length

of time was blocked by the umbrella's being open."

Louis Witt has been accused of being a xxxx because he had his umbrella opened

as the limousine passed by.

But just because his umbrella was up in time to see JFK doesn't necessarily mean

he managed to locate JFK in time to see the President get hit in the throat. Witt wasn't

paying sufficient attention to JFK -- as per Rosemary Willis and Witt himself.

On another thread awhile back I commented on UM and DCM/Gator:

UM is a major rabbit hole, folks. DCM sat down next to him because DCM wasn't

sure if Witt was a civilian or a redundant signalman and was probably startled by

UM more than anything.

This isn't far from Tosh's view of the interaction between UM and DCM/Gator. After

reading Al Carrier's comments in Ron's article I've come around to Tosh's view on this.

All Carrier paraphrased by Ron Ecker: "[W]ould shooters need such a signaler?

Could not shooters more easily see for themselves, through their sights, whether more shots

were needed?"

Wouldn't the shooters have a spotter with binoculars alongside them, instead of a

signalman in the street?

Why would a signalman carry a radio that went unused during the shooting?

If UM and DCM were perps why would they stick around the crime scene?

In my view the actions of DCM/Gator are more consistent with what Tosh describes,

an abort-team member with a radio who latched on to the suspicious, "conspicuous"

(but innocuous) Louis Witt.

In my opinion those are very good deductions. You said it in a way that I have been trying to say for many years now. In the past when we got to this level the thread was diverted or accusations were made as to my credibility. Only a few seem to really read or listen to what I had to say. As I have said before, "... only they know their true motives....". Thanks Cliff. Very good observations.

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In my opinion those are very good deductions. You said it in a way that I have been trying to say for many years now. In the past when we got to this level the thread was diverted or accusations were made as to my credibility. Only a few seem to really read or listen to what I had to say. As I have said before, "... only they know their true motives....". Thanks Cliff. Very good observations.

Hello Tosh: I hope I am not diverting this thread, but you have converted me on 2 subjects recently, the possible South Knoll shooter and that DCM is "Gator" and not part of the Assassination team. Wondering if you can help connect a few loose puzzle pieces.

There have been many groups suspected to have involvement in the JFK assassination: CIA, Cubans, Military, Right-Wing, Mafia, and you posted a suspician that LBJ/MacWallace are involved. I assume that your ABORT team got its instructions from the CIA, but did you have any indication of who was sponsoring, or directing, the assassination team ?

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In my opinion those are very good deductions. You said it in a way that I have been trying to say for many years now. In the past when we got to this level the thread was diverted or accusations were made as to my credibility. Only a few seem to really read or listen to what I had to say. As I have said before, "... only they know their true motives....". Thanks Cliff. Very good observations.

Hello Tosh: I hope I am not diverting this thread, but you have converted me on 2 subjects recently, the possible South Knoll shooter and that DCM is "Gator" and not part of the Assassination team. Wondering if you can help connect a few loose puzzle pieces.

There have been many groups suspected to have involvement in the JFK assassination: CIA, Cubans, Military, Right-Wing, Mafia, and you posted a suspician that LBJ/MacWallace are involved. I assume that your ABORT team got its instructions from the CIA, but did you have any indication of who was sponsoring, or directing, the assassination team ?

Brian: I'll do my best. As I have said, I was never at the level, or in the loop to really know the planning stages of the Abort Team and how or who put it together. However, the following are my thoughts and calculated assumptions based on the connections I had from the JM/WAVE, CIA Miami Station and the Pentagon in Washington D.C., at the time.

I believe a group operating out of the Pentagon intercepted Intel information from south Florida concerning a hit to be made on the President around November 17 th. The Special Group (not the 5412th) working MI, then took this information and started their own independent investigations. This was not a CIA, per say team or investigation; nor did the CIA dispatch this team. At the last minute they (Military Intell, Pentagon) put together a "specialized", top secret.., (undercover) team to be dispatched to Dallas. The Secret Service knew of this team but did not work with them, because they (MI) did not have enough information to support their evidence.

Also, the DoJ and Hoover, did undermine this intelligence which came from two Cubans who were planning to fire a Bazooka at Air Force One, at West Palm Beach, Florida while the President was visiting there in early November. (Somewhere there is a document from Hoover on this) I believe this was the start of the suspicion that the Cubans were behind the assassination, however, I see that as speculations. I too, at one point over the years, thought the Mob and the Cubans were up to their necks in the planning to assassinate Kennedy. I felt that elements of the CIA used the Mafia as they had previously used to kill Castro were involved in the assassination of JFK. After the assassination, I WAS TOLD, my Friend Roselli always took exceptions with my thinking on this and told some that that was all wrong and I of all people should know this.

Many years later, a Texas researcher from Austin Texas, by the name of Jay Harrison, made contact with me.. ( I had known Jay since the early fifties when he was with the DPD as an investigator concerning the "Minute Men", and other groups that operated in and around Dallas and Fort Worth. We started to look into information he had obtained in reference to LBJ and Mac Wallace and the golf course near Austin and the murder there in reference to someone connected to LBJ. Jay also showed me many documents which indicated that LBJ COULD have been involved, however no direct proof..., more like preponderance of various evidence. In time I became convinced that LBJ and the Texas, 'Good ole, Boys' network, either directly or indirectly, were involved in some way in the assassination of Kennedy.

A few years ago before Jay died of cancer, he called me to Austin and showed me a fingerprint card, of which he said was the palm and fingerprint of Mc Wallace and was found on a box in the,'snipers position' in the TSBD. I was very cautious on this and told Jay so. I checked with some sources in the DPD of which I had a contact and was told that there was something to Jay's information, but they could not prove the authenticity of the find. A few years later, or perhaps as early as one year later, that information appeared in a book. Jay had been working with the author in secret for a few years. I was told this sometime later just before Jay died.

"... but did you have any indication of who was sponsoring, or directing, the assassination team ?..".

Shortly after the assassination I had real problems with that. I thought first the Cubans did it..., then the Mob did it, then an independent group working inside MI and CIA did it. It was not until some years later, that I came to the firm conclusions that the TEXANS were involved up to their necks in the assassination, including J Edgar Hoover, the political interest in Texas, to protect LBJ and his associations before Washington and to stop him from being thrown off the ticket and investigations into his activities in behalf of Texas Special Interest.

I hope this may shed some light as to my views on the subject. Brian, I do appreciate your interest and wish you the best. Tosh

Edited by William Plumlee
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In my opinion those are very good deductions. You said it in a way that I have been trying to say for many years now. In the past when we got to this level the thread was diverted or accusations were made as to my credibility. Only a few seem to really read or listen to what I had to say. As I have said before, "... only they know their true motives....". Thanks Cliff. Very good observations.

Hello Tosh: I hope I am not diverting this thread, but you have converted me on 2 subjects recently, the possible South Knoll shooter and that DCM is "Gator" and not part of the Assassination team. Wondering if you can help connect a few loose puzzle pieces.

There have been many groups suspected to have involvement in the JFK assassination: CIA, Cubans, Military, Right-Wing, Mafia, and you posted a suspician that LBJ/MacWallace are involved. I assume that your ABORT team got its instructions from the CIA, but did you have any indication of who was sponsoring, or directing, the assassination team ?

Brian: I'll do my best. As I have said, I was never at the level, or in the loop to really know the planning stages of the Abort Team and how or who put it together. However, the following are my thoughts and calculated assumptions based on the connections I had from the JM/WAVE, CIA Miami Station and the Pentagon in Washington D.C., at the time.

I believe a group operating out of the Pentagon intercepted Intel information from south Florida concerning a hit to be made on the President around November 17 th. The Special Group (not the 5412th) working MI, then took this information and started their own independent investigations. This was not a CIA, per say team or investigation; nor did the CIA dispatch this team. At the last minute they (Military Intell, Pentagon) put together a "specialized", top secret.., (undercover) team to be dispatched to Dallas. The Secret Service knew of this team but did not work with them, because they (MI) did not have enough information to support their evidence.

Also, the DoJ and Hoover, did undermine this intelligence which came from two Cubans who were planning to fire a Bazooka at Air Force One, at West Palm Beach, Florida while the President was visiting there in early November. (Somewhere there is a document from Hoover on this) I believe this was the start of the suspicion that the Cubans were behind the assassination, however, I see that as speculations. I too, at one point over the years, thought the Mob and the Cubans were up to their necks in the planning to assassinate Kennedy. I felt that elements of the CIA used the Mafia as they had previously used to kill Castro were involved in the assassination of JFK. After the assassination, I WAS TOLD, my Friend Roselli always took exceptions with my thinking on this and told some that that was all wrong and I of all people should know this.

Many years later, a Texas researcher from Austin Texas, by the name of Jay Harrison, made contact with me.. ( I had known Jay since the early fifties when he was with the DPD as an investigator concerning the "Minute Men", and other groups that operated in and around Dallas and Fort Worth. We started to look into information he had obtained in reference to LBJ and Mac Wallace and the golf course near Austin and the murder there in reference to someone connected to LBJ. Jay also showed me many documents which indicated that LBJ COULD have been involved, however no direct proof..., more like preponderance of various evidence. In time I became convinced that LBJ and the Texas, 'Good ole, Boys' network, either directly or indirectly, were involved in some way in the assassination of Kennedy.

A few years ago before Jay died of cancer, he called me to Austin and showed me a fingerprint card, of which he said was the palm and fingerprint of Mc Wallace and was found on a box in the,'snipers position' in the TSBD. I was very cautious on this and told Jay so. I checked with some sources in the DPD of which I had a contact and was told that there was something to Jay's information, but they could not prove the authenticity of the find. A few years later, or perhaps as early as one year later, that information appeared in a book. Jay had been working with the author in secret for a few years. I was told this sometime later just before Jay died.

"... but did you have any indication of who was sponsoring, or directing, the assassination team ?..".

Shortly after the assassination I had real problems with that. I thought first the Cubans did it..., then the Mob did it, then an independent group working inside MI and CIA did it. It was not until some years later, that I came to the firm conclusions that the TEXANS were involved up to their necks in the assassination, including J Edgar Hoover, the political interest in Texas, to protect LBJ and his associations before Washington and to stop him from being thrown off the ticket and investigations into his activities in behalf of Texas Special Interest.

I hope this may shed some light as to my views on the subject. Brian, I do appreciate your interest and wish you the best. Tosh

Has anyone found any additional current information about the golf course murder near Austin Texas?

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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...josepha+johnson

billie sol estes also had the information about the kinser murder in his book..

from an old post made on another forum.. john johnson's article and then including information from billie sol estes book which had just been released with john's permission..at the time... web links...and info from madeleine brown's ''TEXAS IN THE MORNING.''.. i hope i got all that straight...b :)

Billy Sol Estes:

Billy Sol Estes and E. Howard Hunt are perhaps the only living persons who can tell us a lot about the JFK assassination.

Billy (also spelled Billie) Sol Estes became a hustler and con artist at the age of 13 when he was given a lamb for Christmas. In less than two years he had a flock of 100 sheep. Billy pursued various schemes in agriculture, and by the age of 17 he boasted of having $40,000 in the bank, a fortune for that time in the years following World War II. By the age of 30 he claimed to be a self-made millionaire. The favorite saying to this swindler was, "You can sheer a sheep many times, but you can only skin him once." Unsolved Texas Mysteries, pp. 96, 97

Billie a young Texan from Pecos, was the very prototype of the "wheeler-dealer," the inordinately avaricious, grafting, finagling businessman usually operating on the outer fringes of the law. A "wheeler-dealer" can best be recognized by his ability to make millions of dollars in a minimum of time in an area of business where political influence is of paramount importance. Billie Sol Estes, Bobby Baker and Lyndon B. Johnson are three outstanding wheeler-dealers of our time. The magic word behind Estes' spectacular, if short-lived success was influence. At the height of his career, in 1961 and early 1962, Estes would fly to Washington about once a month, and invariably, on the eve of his departure for the capital, he would make huge withdrawals from one or the other of his various bank accounts. On a single trip he is reported to have taken with him $150,000 in cash, returning home nearly empty-handed. Three big grain storage companies, all of which made huge profits from government contracts, formed the mainstay of Estes' multi-million dollar business empire. In the single year of 1961, United [grain] Elevator, one of these companies, was paid about four million dollars by the U. S. Government for the storage of grain surplus. Subsequently, three top officials of the Department of Agriculture, which had handled these deals, were forced to resign as a result of the Estes scandal. Joesten, pp. 28, 29

Billy Sol Estes helped finance LBJ's campaigns and provided his private plane for the campaigning. In return, Estes got to make millions with federal cotton allotments and for storing federal government grain. Estes had organized a complicated scheme whereby displaced farmers would buy some of his land and transfer their allotments to Estes' land; the farmers would then lease the land back to Estes for $50 per acre. Although the farmers were supposed to pay for the land in four equal installments, they secretly agreed to miss the first payment so Billie Sol could foreclose on the land. In this way Estes received more than one-third of the cotton allotments issued in 1961. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 98

Government officials, however, began to suspect illegal activity, a scheme and device to buy cotton allotments and not to sell land. Johnson intervened by writing a letter to the Secretary of Agriculture defending Estes' practices. An investigation was launched by the Department, with Agricultural Agent Henry B. Marshall conducting the investigation and reporting to Washington. Marshall was on the trail of a multi-million dollar swindle. But it was Marshall himself who had approved 138 different transfers for Estes, 3,000 acres of illegal allotments. Marshall may have been another of Billie Sol's bribery victims. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, pp. 112, 113

LBJ flew to Dallas on a military jet and met with Estes and his lawyers on the plane which was parked away from the terminal. This meeting would have remained secret had the plane not suffered a mishap on landing. When investigative reporters tried to obtain tower records, they were told the records had been sealed by government order. Zirbel, p. 159

On June 3, 1961 Marshall was found dead lying face up in the grass near his pickup truck with 5 bullet holes in his lower left chest. He had also sustained a severe head wound and his hands were badly scratched. Although there were no blood stains on the ground except around the body, smears were found on both doors, the hood, and right rear panel of the truck. There was also a six to eight inch dent in the right rear panel of the truck. Marshall's .22 cal. bolt action rifle was found beside him. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 93

The local Justice of the Peace ruled the death a suicide. This determination is even more ridiculous than the "single bullet theory" in the Kennedy assassination, for it would require a person to shoot himself by holding the rifle at arm's length, work the bolt to eject the empty shell and load a new one, shoot himself again, and repeat the process of loading and firing 5 times. Twenty-three years later, Marshall's body was exhumed and examined. It was found that in addition to the 5 bullet wounds, he had been struck a severe blow to the head and had also been asphyxiated with carbon monoxide. There was enough carbon monoxide in his lungs to have incapacitated him, but this is strange, since his body was not found in his pick-up truck. Texas in the Morning, p. 148

The medical examiner determined that three wounds would have been rapidly incapacitating; one shot had severed the aorta near the heart, one had penetrated his liver, and another had gone through his lung. Any one of these wounds would have caused immediate paralysis or death. The suicide verdict was changed to murder. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 102; Texas in the Morning, p. 149

On April 4, 1962, Billy Sol's accountant, George Krutilek, the only other person besides Marshall who could unravel the fraud, was found dead in his car with a hose from the exhaust stuck in the window. Krutilek was a 49 year old certified public accountant who had worked for Estes and had been the recipient of his favors. He had been grilled by the FBI on April 2nd, the day after Billy Sol's arrest. Krutilek had been dead for several days. The El Paso County pathologist, Dr. Frederick Bornstein, held that he certainly did not die from carbon monoxide poisoning. Zirbel, p. 159, Texas in the Morning, p. 148

Another of Billy Sol's friends was found dead as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning. Harold Eugene Orr, president of the Superior Manufacturing Company of Amarillo, which had played a key role in Estes' finance frauds, had been arrested with Billie Sol and given a 10 year prison sentence, two months after Johnson became President. On February 28, 1964, just before he was to begin serving his term in federal prison, Orr went out to his garage, ostensibly to change the exhaust pipe on his car. A few hours later he was found dead. Tools which were unsuited for the purpose were scattered around. Texas in the Morning, p. 151

Yet another person involved with Billy Sol was found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Howard Pratt, a Chicago office manager of Commercial solvents, Billy Sol's fertilizer supplier, was found dead in his car.

Just by coincidence, Henry B. Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Eugene Orr, and Howard Pratt - all associated with the Billie Sol Estes scandal which involved Lyndon Johnson - were found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning. When Estes testified before the grand jury, he was under immunity only for the Marshall case, and he refused to answer questions about the mysterious deaths of his three former associates who had also supposedly died of carbon monoxide poisoning within several years of Marshall's death. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 126

When Johnson became president, all federal investigations were dropped or blocked, but Estes still faced a Texas state charge of defrauding farmers. He was convicted and went to jail. But during Johnson's presidency, the U. S. Supreme court decided that Billy Sol's "rights had been violated" and that he was entitled to a new trial. The Justice who wrote the opinion was Tom Clark, a native of Dallas, and a Justice who concurred was Earl Warren, the head of LBJ's Warren Commission. Zirbel, p. 160

In 1984, a year after he got out of prison, paroled after serving 6 of a 22 year sentence, Estes testified to a grand jury under a grant of immunity in the Marshall case. He told the grand jury that Lyndon Johnson ordered people to be killed. Referring to Henry Marshall, the Agricultural Department agent who was investigating illegal cotton allotments and other deals that generated $21 million a year for LBJ's slush fund, LBJ told Billie Sol to "get rid of him." The Dallas Morning News, March 24, 1984, headlines read "LBJ ordered murder of witness, says con man Estes." Killing the Truth, p. 514

In March of 1984, Clint Peoples, U. S. Marshal, encouraged Billie Sol to come forward after twenty-three years of wondering about Marshall's death. Billie Sol testified with immunity from prosecution before a grand jury that he had attended at least three meeting with Lyndon - two in Washington and one at the Driscoll Hotel - during which they discussed the need to "stop Marshall from disclosing Estes' fraudulent business dealings and his ties with Johnson." Billie Sol wanted to clear his conscience about Marshall's death, and named Malcolm "Mac" Wallace as the triggerman.

The situation was supposedly discussed by Estes, Johnson, and [presidential aide] Carter in the backyard of LBJ's Washington home. Johnson was, according to Estes, alarmed that if Marshall started talking it might result in an investigation that would implicate the vice president. At first it was decided to have Marshall transferred to Washington, but when told Marshall had already refused such a relocation, LBJ, according to Estes, said simply, "Then we'll have to get rid of him." Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 118

Estes said that Malcolm Wallace, an employee of the Department of Agriculture who took orders from LBJ, was the one who killed Marshall. Wallace had been convicted of murder by shooting his wife's lover five times with a .25 cal. pistol in 1951. [Coincidentally, Marshall was also shot 5 times with a small caliber weapon.] He received a 5 year suspended sentence, which was unheard of since the penalty for premeditated murder in Texas was death. Unsolved Texas Mysteries, p. 115

Senator John McClellan demonstrates impossibility of suicide with rifle.

In July of 1962, the Senate Permanent Investigations Subcommittee, chaired by Senator John McClellan (D-Ark.) held hearings in Washington on Marshall’s death.

Madeleine Brown states:

Wallace told Lyndon's associates and Billie Sol Estes later that he had caught Marshall in a lonely place on the road and was gassing him with a hose from the exhaust when a stranger came along in the distance. Wallace then shot Marshall five times and got away, thus saving Lyndon's bacon.

Many years later, I met with U. S. Marshal Clint Peoples to discuss Malcolm Wallace because I had witnessed Mac practicing at the Dallas Gun Club. Clint had investigated Wallace's death for years. He was planning to break the case open with proof that Wallace was one of the shooters behind the picket fence overlooking Dealey Plaza. Unfortunately, Clint's untimely death under mysterious circumstances prevented this announcement from ever being made. It is a fact, however, that a Wallace Plumbing truck was at the scene of the assassination in Dealey Plaza. [The Wallace family owned a plumbing business in Dallas.]

Clint's car was run off the road shortly before he was to meet with me and some associates. His car was hit by a truck and he was killed. It is said that his wrists showed marks from handcuffs. Texas in the Morning, p. 85

Nolan Griffin testified that a man stopped at his gas station and inquired about the location of the Marshall farm. a few days before Marshall was found dead. A drawing of this individual resembles Billy Sol Estes. When Billy testified before a grand jury 22 years later, it became apparent that the man could have been Mac Wallace.

Madeleine believes that Mac Wallace not only murdered several people to protect Lyndon Johnson, but also that it was Wallace, not Oswald, who fired the gun narrowly missing General Walker, and that it was Wallace as well who fired from the Grassy Knoll at the President. Madeleine says it was Mac Wallace's style; she saw him often at the Dallas Gun Club practicing with a .22 single shot pistol. Texas in the Morning, p.170

Wallace was friendly with the Johnson family to the point of dating Josefa, Lyndon's sister. They had an affair during 1949 and 1950 in the Washington, DC area when Wallace, a former University of Texas student body president, was working as an economist for the Agriculture Department. Wallace was known as a hatchet man for LBJ. Josefa was at that time getting a divorce and had just been released from a Washington area alcoholic rehabilitation center. In 1951 Josefa had stopped dating Wallace and began a relationship with John Douglas Kinser, a 33 year-old Austin golf professional who owned a golf course. Lyndon believed that Kinser began dating his sister in the hope of securing LBJ's help in getting a small-business loan. One afternoon, Wallace drove up to Kinser's golf course and shot him dead in the keeper's house. Wallace fled but was captured. During his trial, Wallace was represented by John Cofer, the same attorney who had represented Lyndon Johnson in the famous "Ballot Box 13" voter fraud case in 1948 and who represented none other than Billie Sol Estes in the case of phantom fertilizer tanks. In fact, it had been rumored that Cofer handled the Estes case personally so he could prevent Lyndon Johnson from being dragged into the mess. Texas in the Morning, p. 79Later Lyndon would tell Madeleine, "Goddamn, Madeleine, can you believe this xxxxhead Wallace?" No one loves to drink and xxxx more than me, but xxxx, I wouldn't kill anyone over a piece of ass. The world's full of ass. Hell, I've got friends in Austin who owe me favors. I'm going to call in my markers for Wallace's trial. Madeleine, I can't have this bullxxxx embarrassing my family." Texas in the Morning, p. 79

Estes told Larry Howard [head of the JFK Assassination Research Group in Dallas] and others that he sat in on one of the planning sessions for the assassination of President Kennedy, a meeting at which Lyndon Johnson was present. Estes maintains that Hunt and Murchison paid for the murder, and Hoover orchestrated it with special agents trained by the CIA; General Charles Cabell took care of the problems at the autopsy, and Hoover and Johnson were able to cover it up by creating and controlling the Warren Commission. Killing the Truth, p. 512

Madeleine Brown says that Billy Sol took the fall for LBJ, and that there are only two people left who know the whole story of what happened to John F. Kennedy: Billy Sol Estes and Lady Bird Johnson. Bobby Kennedy went to see Estes when he was in jail, hoping to find out the truth about his brother's death; but Billy Sol would not tell, claiming that he was not ready to die yet. Killing the Truth, pp. 506, 507

As a result of Estes’ testimony before the Robertson County Grand Jury, the Justice department sent Estes a letter requesting a meeting to discuss the provocative charges he had made. Estes enlisted the legal services of Douglas Caddy to represent him. Caddy wrote a letter to the Justice Department asking for the protection of immunity among other things. In return, Estes would provide information on far more than the Justice department had asked about. Estes listed seven more murders directly linked to Lyndon Johnson, one of them being that of President John F. Kennedy, and all of them at the hand of Malcolm Wallace.

May 29, 1984

U. S. Justice Department Criminal Division

Dear Mr. Caddy:

RE: Billy Sol Estes

I have considered the materials and information you have provided to me in connection with your representation of Billy Sol Estes. I understand that Mr. Estes claims to have information concerning the possible commission of criminal offenses in Texas in the 1960’s and that he is willing to reveal that information at this time. I also understand that Mr. Estes wants several things in exchange for this information, such as a pardon for the offenses for which he has been convicted and immunity from any further prosecution among other things.

Before we can engage in any further discussions concerning Mr. Estes’ cooperation or enter into any agreement with Mr. Estes we must know the following things: (1) the information, including the extent or corroborative evidence, that Mr. Estes has about each of the events that may be violations of criminal law; (2) the source of his information; and (3) the extent of his involvement, if any, in each of those events or any subsequent cover-ups. Until we have detailed information concerning these three things we can not determine whether any violations of federal criminal law occurred which are within our jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute and, if so, whether the information is credible and otherwise warrants investigation. Accordingly, if we are to proceed with meaningful discussions concerning Mr. Estes’ proffered cooperation, we must receive a detailed and specific written offer of proof from you setting forth the information noted above. The government will hold your offer of proof in strictest confidence and will not make any use of it other than to determine the credibility of the proffered information and whether it warrants further discussions with or debriefings of Mr. Estes.

I must make sure that several things are understood at this time concerning Mr. Estes’ proffered cooperation. First, if after reviewing your offer of proof we decide the information that Mr. Estes can provide is credible and in all other respects warrants further investigation -- a decision which will be made unilaterally by the government -- it will be necessary for Mr. Estes to be interviewed and to reveal everything he knows about the possible criminal violations. He will have to do so completely, truthfully and without guile. Second, it must be understood that the government is not now making specific promises to Mr. Estes except with respect to the confidentiality and use of your offer of proof as noted above. If it is decided that Mr. Estes should be interviewed, the extent of promises concerning the confidentiality or use of the statements or promises of reward or consideration to Mr. Estes, if any, will be determined only after we receive a detailed written offer from you.

Above all else, I must emphasize that Mr. Estes must act with total honesty and candor in any dealings with the Department of Justice or any investigative agency. If any discussions with or debriefings of Mr. Estes take place after receipt of your offer of proof and if any agreement ultimately is reached after Mr. Estes provides a statement, the government will not be bound by any representations or agreements it makes if any of his statements at any time are false, misleading or materially incomplete or if he knowingly fails to act with total honesty and candor.

Sincerely

Stephen S. Trott

Assistant Attorney General

Criminal Division

____________________________________________________________

Reply:

August 9, 1984

Mr. Stephen S. Trott

RE: Mr. Billie Sol Estes

Dear Mr. Trott:

My client, Mr. Estes, has authorized me to make this reply to your letter of May 29, 1984. Mr. Estes was a member of a four-member group, headed by Lyndon Johnson, which committed criminal acts in Texas in the 1960’s. The other two, besides Mr. Estes and LBJ, were Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace. Mr. Estes is willing to disclose his knowledge concerning the following criminal offenses:

I. Murders

1. The killing of Henry Marshall

2. The killing of George Krutilek

3. The killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary

4. The killing of Harold Orr

5. The killing of Coleman Wade

6. The killing of Josefa Johnson

7. The killing of John Kinser

8. The killing of President J. F. Kennedy

Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders. In the cases of murders nos. 1-7, Mr. Estes’ knowledge of the precise details concerning the way the murders were executed stems from conversations he had shortly after each event with Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace.

In addition, a short time after Mr. Estes was released from prison in 1971, he met with Cliff Carter and they reminisced about what had occurred in the past, including the murders. During their conversation, Carter orally compiled a list of 17 murders which had been committed, some of which Mr. Estes was unfamiliar. A living witness was present at that meeting and should be willing to testify about it. He is Kyle Brown, recently of Houston and now living in Brady, Texas.

Mr. Estes, states that Mac Wallace, whom he describes as a "stone killer" with a communist background, recruited Jack Ruby, who in turn recruited Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Estes says that Cliff Carter told him that Mac Wallace fired a shot from the grassy knoll in Dallas, which hit JFK from the front during the assassination.

Mr. Estes declares that Cliff Carter told him the day Kennedy was killed, Fidel Castro also was supposed to be assassinated and that Robert Kennedy, awaiting word of Castro’s death, instead received news of his brother’s killing.

Mr. Estes says that the Mafia did not participate in the Kennedy assassination but that its possible participation was discussed prior to the event,, but rejected by LBJ, who believed if the Mafia were involved, he would never be out from under its blackmail.

Mr. Estes asserts that Mr. Ronnie Clark, of Wichita, Kansas, has attempted on several occasions to engage him in conversation. Mr. Clark, who is a frequent visitor to Las Vegas, has indicated in these conversations a detailed knowledge corresponding to Mr. Estes’ knowledge of the JFK assassination. Mr. Clark claims to have met with Mr. Jack Ruby a few days prior to the assassination, at which time Kennedy’s planned murder was discussed.

Mr. Estes declares that discussions were had with Jimmy Hoffa concerning having his aide, Larry Cabell, kill Robert Kennedy while the latter drove around in his convertible.

Mr. Estes has records of his phone calls during the relevant years to key persons mentioned in the foregoing account.

II. The Illegal Cotton Allotments

Mr. Estes desires to discuss the infamous illegal cotton allotment schemes in great detail. He has tape recordings made at the time of LBJ, Cliff Carter and himself discussing the scheme. These recordings were made with Cliff Carter’s knowledge as a means of Carter and Estes protecting themselves should LBJ order their deaths.

Mr. Estes believes these tape recordings and the rumors of other recordings allegedly in his possession are the reason he has not been murdered.

III. Illegal Payoffs

Mr. Estes is willing to disclose illegal payoff schemes, in which he collected and passed on to Cliff Carter and LBJ millions of dollars. Mr. Estes collected payoff money on more than one occasion from George and Herman Brown of Brown and Root, which was delivered to LBJ.

In your letter of May 29, 1984, you request "(1) the information, including the extent of corroborative evidence, that Mr. Estes has about each of the events that may be violations of criminal law; (2) the sources of his information, and (3) the extent of his involvement, if any, in each of those events or any subsequent cover-ups."

In connection with Item #1, I wish to declare, as Mr. Estes’ attorney, that Mr. Estes is prepared without reservation to provide all the information he has. Most of the information contained in this letter I obtained from him yesterday for the first time. While Mr. Estes has been pre-occupied by this knowledge almost every day for the last 22 years, it was not until we began talking yesterday that he could face up to disclosing it to another person. My impression from our conversation yesterday is that Mr. Estes, in the proper setting, will be able to recall and orally recount criminal matters. It is also my impression that his interrogation in such a setting will elicit additional corroborative evidence as his memory is stimulated.

In connection with your Item #2, Mr. Estes has attempted in this letter to provide his sources of information.

In connection with your Item #3, Mr. Estes states that he never participated in any of the murders. It may be alleged that he participated in subsequent cover-ups. His response to this is that had he conducted himself any differently, he, too, would have been a murder victim.

Mr. Estes wishes to confirm that h

e will abide by the conditions set forth in your letter and that he plans to act with total honesty and candor in any dealings with the Department of Justice or any federal investigative agency.

In return for his cooperation, Mr. Estes wishes in exchange his being given immunity, his parole restrictions being lifted and favorable consideration being given to recommending his long-standing tax liens being removed and his obtaining a pardon.

Sincerely yours,

Douglas Caddy

The Men on the Sixth Floor, p. 158

Billy Sol's desperate financial circumstances forced him to file for bankruptcy, causing a host of creditors and mortgagors to descend on him to file their claims. Texas in the Morning, p. 149 Billy Sol never did testify before any federal agency. He may have been afraid of involving others, close to him, who were still living.

**************************************

Have added some links

Good Bad and Indifferent on Billie Sol Estes..

Unsolved Mysteries

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm410583.html

Documents

http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm

IN EARLY 1998 THE LEGENDARY

TEXAS SWINDLER BILLIE SOL ESTES

WAS BACK IN COURT.

YOU WON'T BELIEVE HIS DEFENSE.

http://members.aol.com/wmpb/BillieSol/

Name Base

http://www.namebase.org/main1/Billie-Sol-Estes.html

The Men On The Sixth Floor

http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/

Holy Smoke

http://www.holysmoke.org/kh/kh412.htm

THE LBJ ROBOT

by Mack White

http://www.mackwhite.com/lbj.html

FBI FILES

312 pages of FBI files dating from 1956 to 1966, covering Congressman Lyndon Johnson, Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, President Lyndon Johnson, and the Johnson Administration.

Topics covered in the files include: Alleged voting irregularities in the Texas counties of Webb, Duval, Starr, Zapata and Jim Hogg. The Billy Sol Estes Affair. Billy Sol Estes was an associate and neighbor of Lyndon Johnson. Billy Sol Estes was convicted in 1962 of fraud against the federal government. Information covering the Johnson radio and television holdings. Allegations that Johnson demanded kickbacks from insurance salesman Don B. Reynolds after buying a policy from him. The alleged kickbacks included a $585 Magnavox stereo and $1,200 of advertising on a Johnson owned Austin televison station, KTBC. Details of a conversation between FBI director J. Edgar Hoover and President Johnson, about developments in the Kennedy Assassination investigation. A range of issues involving the protection of the president.

Background checks on President Johnson Administration staff, including Pierre Salinger.

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/lbjfbi.html

Billie Sol Estes' presence still makes for lively theater

By Bill Whitaker

Local attorney Jim Norvell called a press conference last week to proclaim famed Texas wheeler-dealer Billie Sol Estes innocent, but that won't tilt the scales in anyone's mind.

Nor did Billie Sol really expect it would.

http://www.texnews.com/reality/brazosbill/bill120997.html

Billie Sol Estes, convicted of swindling, emerged from prison today and proclaimed: ''I've done the crime, I've done the time and I did it alone.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...752C1A965948260

Why The History Channel Had To Aplogize

http://hnn.us/articles/4504.html

JFK: Le dernier témoin

JFK: The Last Witness

by William Reymond and Billie Sol Estes

Éditions Flammarion, 2003

400 pages.

ISBN-10: 2-08-067940-6

ISBN-13: 9782080679406

The Johnson conspiracy theory explored by top journalist (and US resident) William Reymond with last living witness, Billie Sol Estes

An instant bestseller in France, William Reymond’s JFK: The Last Witness, puts forth a new theory on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Far from being just another conspiracy book, it offers a missing piece in the puzzle, and a glimpse into the dark and corrupt world of Texas politics in the fifties and sixties in the form of a live witness and the co-author of the book: Billie Sol Estes.

Sol Estes was from a modest background, but made a fortune at a young age and in the early fifties was spending his way to influence in Texas politics. His main and most notable beneficiary was the young senator Lyndon Johnson. When an investigation into Johnson’s financing was opened, Johnson betrayed Sol Estes rather than expose himself to rightful accusations. Estes lost his wealth, his family, and life, and spent time in jail. Now elderly and in poor health, the once formidable muckraker delivers some outrageous proclamations, and offers an up-close view of Texas dirty politics.

Reymond convincingly weaves elements of a Johnson conspiracy, provided by Estes, to the latest forensic evidence, reconstituting the day of the assassination and the investigations, or lack thereof that ensued. The single assassin theory upheld by the Warren Commission falters when one key connection is made: the links Estes provides between Lyndon Johnson and Mac Wallace, an assassin whose finger prints were found in the same warehouse that sheltered Lee Harvey Oswald.

http://www.frenchpubagency.org/index.cfm?c...ain&tid=485

The Taut Miles from Pecos 1962 article

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,939369,00.html

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Question: Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that?

Answer: Yes. From what I remember the flight out of Dallas (no flight plan filed) was to originally fly back to Houston Texas where (I thought) I would go back to Florida on another flight and the DC-3 would be flown back to West Palm by an Eastern Airline pilot. I was told another flight out of Red Bird went to Wichita Falls, Texas near the AFB there.

Tosh, do you remember what time it was when the abort team reassembled

back at the plane?

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..., more like preponderance of various evidence. In time I became convinced that LBJ and the Texas, 'Good ole, Boys' network, either directly or indirectly, were involved in some way in the assassination of Kennedy.

......

Shortly after the assassination I had real problems with that. I thought first the Cubans did it..., then the Mob did it, then an independent group working inside MI and CIA did it. It was not until some years later, that I came to the firm conclusions that the TEXANS were involved up to their necks in the assassination, including J Edgar Hoover, the political interest in Texas, to protect LBJ and his associations before Washington and to stop him from being thrown off the ticket and investigations into his activities in behalf of Texas Special Interest.

I hope this may shed some light as to my views on the subject. Brian, I do appreciate your interest and wish you the best. Tosh

Thank you for your thoughts.

I realize that there is limited Hard evidence in the JFK case. The hardest evidence, to me, seems to be a fingerprint from the snipers nest, a picture of 3 tramps analysed by a respected forensic artist and the arrest of a man in the Dal-Tex building. Interesting that those pieces lead to thugs with ties to the Good Ole boys in Texas.

Malcolm (Mac) Wallace, was born in Mt Pleasant, TX in 1921. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Harrelson was born in Huntsville, Texas, in 1939. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Rogers was born in Texas in 1921. Served in Naval Intelligence. Accused of Murder.

Eugene Hale Brading. a known Mafia courier. in town to visit Texas oil billionaire HL Hunt.

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..., more like preponderance of various evidence. In time I became convinced that LBJ and the Texas, 'Good ole, Boys' network, either directly or indirectly, were involved in some way in the assassination of Kennedy.

......

Shortly after the assassination I had real problems with that. I thought first the Cubans did it..., then the Mob did it, then an independent group working inside MI and CIA did it. It was not until some years later, that I came to the firm conclusions that the TEXANS were involved up to their necks in the assassination, including J Edgar Hoover, the political interest in Texas, to protect LBJ and his associations before Washington and to stop him from being thrown off the ticket and investigations into his activities in behalf of Texas Special Interest.

I hope this may shed some light as to my views on the subject. Brian, I do appreciate your interest and wish you the best. Tosh

Thank you for your thoughts.

I realize that there is limited Hard evidence in the JFK case. The hardest evidence, to me, seems to be a fingerprint from the snipers nest, a picture of 3 tramps analysed by a respected forensic artist and the arrest of a man in the Dal-Tex building. Interesting that those pieces lead to thugs with ties to the Good Ole boys in Texas.

Malcolm (Mac) Wallace, was born in Mt Pleasant, TX in 1921. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Harrelson was born in Huntsville, Texas, in 1939. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Rogers was born in Texas in 1921. Served in Naval Intelligence. Accused of Murder.

Eugene Hale Brading. a known Mafia courier. in town to visit Texas oil billionaire HL Hunt.

Brian: Do you believe in a thing called, "preponderance of the evidence". In my opinion; it seems to me that the realm of our political system for decades now, has gone far out of its way to make sure that the Texas Connection will never see the light of day. Some of our so call leaders of today got their start in politics during and after the Kennedy assassination and through the LBJ area. It has taken years to cull most of them out. Today, a few of those old gate keepers are still around and they still remain hidden in their Texas strongholds, vigilant watchdogs as to the legacy of which they have helped create for their masters who helped thrust them to their lofty hights...., of course this is only my opinion.

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[quote

Thank you for your thoughts.

I realize that there is limited Hard evidence in the JFK case. The hardest evidence, to me, seems to be a fingerprint from the snipers nest, a picture of 3 tramps analysed by a respected forensic artist and the arrest of a man in the Dal-Tex building. Interesting that those pieces lead to thugs with ties to the Good Ole boys in Texas.

Malcolm (Mac) Wallace, was born in Mt Pleasant, TX in 1921. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Harrelson was born in Huntsville, Texas, in 1939. Accused and convicted murderer.

Charles Rogers was born in Texas in 1921. Served in Naval Intelligence. Accused of Murder.

Eugene Hale Brading. a known Mafia courier. in town to visit Texas oil billionaire HL Hunt.

And then there's David Atlee Phillips a/k/a Maurice Bishop CIA Oswald-handler, fingered by

his own family as a Dallas perp....out of Forth Worth, Texas.

The Dal-Tex building was owned by Clint Murchison, Sr. and H.L. Hunt. The cops

never searched it. It offered the best shooter position in the Plaza.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Cancellare 1 Crop

Hi Tosh.

Is it correct that on the 22/11/63 you were positioned in the "shaded area underneath the large tree" just behind the man holding the sign.

I seem to recall this from another post you did on one of the forums about a year ago.

Thanks

Robin.

Edited by Robin Unger
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Cancellare 1 Crop

Hi Tosh.

Is it correct that on the 22/11/63 you were positioned in the "shaded area underneath the large tree" just behind the man holding the sign.

I seem to recall this from another post you did on one of the forums about a year ago.

Thanks

Robin.

HI ROBIN HE IS GONE FOR AWHILE AS FAR AS I KNOW...HE IMPLIED HE WOULD BE BACK..HE IS OFF TO THE BORDER WARS IN MEXICO...THESE TWO I Am posting for you are his own markings approximate area where they were that he marked and posted for us at rich's some years back ..they are about the same, for your information copies....best b..

Edited by Bernice Moore
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