Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Judyth sent me this response on 28 February, so it was written when she first read this nasty from Barb. Since she made more than one post attacking Judyth that day, however, she (Judyth) may be addressing some issues raised in later posts. When Junkkanrien talks about "fact checking", you know what is coming will be fanciful. She almost never knows what she is talking about, where this is a nice example of her distortions in attacking Judyth. When Barb posts, I know to expect substantial departures from the truth.

I am not going to waste much time on this baloney, like many many others, I lived it for years and saw all the changes and excuses and plain old nonsense. That's why I did a little basic fact checking on several things to begin with. Judyth chose to do this ... one would think she'd know better by now....MY COMMENTS AND INFO FOLLOW IN BOLD CAPS.

Response from Judyth:

I never dreamed I would have to write an essay to assemble the truth, which has been twisted by others. But here it is.

RUSSIAN CLASS AT NIGHT: CREATED SO I COULD LEARN RUSSIAN

IT WAS NOT CREATED *FOR* YOU, JUDYTH, IT WAS A CLASS ALREADY IN PLACE. AND WHAT FOOL IS GOING TO BELIEVE A FEW NIGHT CLASSES IN RUSSIAN IS GOING TO PREPARE ANYONE TO READ RUSSIAN SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS. PURE NONSENSE. CRIPES, THEY COULD HAVE HIRED A TRANSLATOR FOR A LOT LESS TROUBLE. ;-)

Cost to me: free! (I have a note from my mother stating that I did not pay for the course -- that it was free for me ---it was 'funded", a note signed and dated, which I will produce upon request.)

YEAH, YEAH, WE'RE ALL IMPRESSED BY THE LETTER YOU STUCK IN FRONT OF YOUR MOTHER TO SIGN IN 2000, WHAT WAS SHE 75-80? ANYONE CAN CHECK THE CATALOG (AND I RECOMMEND THEY DO) AND SEE THAT THE TOTAL FEES FOR THIS CLASS WERE ALL OF $7.00.

1. Barb posted that night classes in Russian existed at least a year before I began attending Russian class at night, and therefore, I am lying when I said the class was organized by Doyle and other retired military so I could learn Russian.

Let's look at her reasoning and the facts. In fact, the year before, 1959, was the first year that a catalog is shown because there was no MJC before 1959. It was brand-new.

TILT! MANATEE JUNIOR COLLEGE WAS ESTABLISHED (GRANTED ITS CHARTER) ON SEPT 17, 1957. IT OPENED ITS DOORS FOR CLASSES FOR ITS FIRST FALL SEMESTER, INCLUDING RUSSIAN AS A NIGHT CLASS, ON SEPT 2, 1958.

THE SCHOOL CELEBRATED ITS 50TH ANNIVERSARY IN 2007. PLEASE SEE THIS PAGE FROM THEIR WEBSITE ALL ABOUT IT. THIS PARTICULAR PAGE CARRIES THEIR TIMELINE. http://www.mccfl.edu/50/?page=timeline

2. She posted that the former instructor in Russian was a woman called Reiglar, who taught night classes the year before. Next came Dr. Concevitch, teaching at night.

RIEGLER TAUGHT THE CLASS, AS A NIGHT COURSE (THERE WAS NO RUSSIAN DAY CLASS OFFERED) WHEN THE SCHOOL OPENED IN SEPT 1958...AND IT REMAINED JUST A NIGHT CLASS THROUGH THE YEARS YOU CLAIM YOU ATTENDED.

RIEGLER PRESENTED/TOOK PART IN SEMINAR THAT FALL OF 1958. ARTICLE IS ANOTHER ON JSTOR:

South Atlantic Modern Language Association

Quentin Oliver McAllister

PMLA, Vol. 74, No. 2 (May, 1959), pp. 59-62

Published by: Modern Language Association

...

TITLE:

SOUTH ATLANTIC MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION

Twenty-eighth Annual Meeting, Augusta, Georgia

6-8 November 1958

[...........]

...

"Slavic Section

[.......]

...

2. "Symposium on the Teaching of Russian in the Secondary

Schools........

3. "Russian in the Curriculum of a Junior College," Tina Riegler,

Manatee Junior Coll.

4 ...

3. Therefore, she advises Dr. Fetzer to be aware that I have lied.

4. She failed to mention that Santa Reiglar was teaching not only Russian but also Italian.That Reiglar had only a bachelor's degree and was not a professor. That Reiglar, in fact, was a poor teacher, with nobody to replace her when she went back to college herself (which is what I heard as a rumor)...

YES, SHE ALSO TAUGHT ITALIAN. WHO CARES. NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR RUMORS ...LOL. FACT REMAINS THAT, CONTRARY TO YOUR CLAIM, RUSSIAN WAS A NIGHT CLASS, IN PLACE, WITH A TEACHER, FOR 1-1/2 YEARS BEFORE YOU CLAIM IT WAS CREATED JUST FOR YOU.

5. Barb wants you to believe that Dr. Concevitch was eager to fill in the gap and teach Russian the following year. But she neglected to tell you that he never taught but that single year. And he's never seen again on the faculty roster.

DON'T KNOW HOW EAGER HE WAS, DON'T CARE. HE WAS TEACHING THE CLASS IN 1965. HERE'S A LETTER I RECEIVED FROM A LADY WHO WORKED IN THE ARCHIVES AT THE COLLEGE, AND ASSISTED ME WITH SOME RESEARCH:

----- "Margaret Hawkins" <hawkinm@mccfl.edu> wrote:

> From: "Margaret Hawkins" <hawkinm@mccfl.edu>

> To: barbjfk@comcast.net

> Cc: "Susan McDonough" <mcdonos@mccfl.edu>

> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 7:28:24 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific

> Subject: RE: another piece of info

Hello!

I was able to spend some time digging this morning and was able to verify that

Dr. Theodore Concevitch taught Russian part time in Fall 1961. (this is the earliest I have been able to find)

I also found that he was still teaching Spring 1965.

The part time faculty were not listed as much as the full time faculty and I will need to keep looking to see if I can find anything else. I anticipate I will be able to look again tomorrow morning.

-Meg

6. Barb also neglected to mention that the following year, no more Russian classes were held at night, because they had no instructor, even though Russian was listed. They couldn't get Dr. Concevich to return. Oh, I didn't return, either.

SEE ABOVE

7. She wants you to forget that it was Cold War at its best, and yes, Col. Doyle and his military friends wanted me to learn some Russian because Russian journals in the hospital medical libraries were not being ordered or read--nobody could read them. I was willing to attend, and do my best to tackle such journals, if they could get a night class going. No, I did not know that there had been any such night classes before this one. I had heard about the poor former teacher, and that no replacement was to be found, when efforts were made to try to get the night class going.

Originally Barb once posted that only day classes in Russian had been held, according to her 'investigations." That turned out to be false. But people tend to remember what they hear first. Judyth Baker had said there were night classes, but there were only day classes. I saved those erased posts from McAdams' newsgroup, by the way.

BREAK OUT THAT QUOTE, JUDYTH, FOR I NEVER SAID ANYTHING OF THE KIND. MAKE SURE IT IS COMPLETE, IN CONTEXT AND HAS THE HEADERS ATTACHED. :-)

Barb does not believe any effort was made to create this night class, though no such night classes existed after that one....listed, but no instructor...and only one night class before it had existed...and that instructor did not return.

The military fellows got together and paid extra money to Concevitch to pull the course together, and they paid for my fee, so I paid nothing. Ask yourself if that sounds as outlandish as Barb would have you believe.

Why is this so difficult to digest when Barb should know, if she looked at my yearbooks, that Doyle and I are constantly being photographed together, he is being quoted about me, and oh--by the way-- I was at that time the top science student in the state of Florida, and had won a military cruise on an aircraft carrier with the US Navy as one of my prizes that year? I'd also won the US Army's Physics and Chemistry Award, and in Indianapolis I signed a loyalty oath with military officers present so i could qualify (I learned much later) for Indiana state scholarships, for Indiana was my home state, the International Science Fair was held in Indianapolis, Indiana. and I was a native of Indiana. of course i got some attention because of that, but also because so few girls made it that high at that time.

AH, MORE REVISION TAKING PLACE! UNFORTUNATELY, JUDYTH, YOU SPELLED OUT THE WHOLE CIA THING IN YOUR PUBLISHED BOOK ... YOU KEEP TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ALL OF THIS STUFF IS FROM YOUR ALLEGEDLY PURLOINED BY THIEVES DEADLY ALLIANCE OUTLINE, WHICH YOU WROTE WITH PLATZMAN. IT IS IN YOUR PUBLISHED BOOK. IF YOU WANT QUOTES FROM YOU TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK WHEN IT WAS COMING OUT .... CAN DO. REMEMBER THAT AND SAVE EVERYONE SOME TIME.

All of this sits badly with Barb, who tried a long time to say that I was just a good science student and that I had never done any cancer research at all.

YOU'LL NEED ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THAT ONE. YOU CLEARLY DID CANCER RESEARCH IN HIGH SCHOOL .... WHICH IS WHAT GOT YOU INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SUMMER PROGRAM AT ROSWELL PARK THE SUMMER AFTER YOU GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL. PART OF THAT PROGRAM, BY THE WAY, IS THAT DOCTORS IN DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS EACH PICK A STUDENT TO WORK WITH THEM IN THEIR LAB/DEPARTMENT. THAT'S HOW THE PROGRAM WORKED, WITH VERY LITTLE OTHER INTERACTION BETWEEN THE STUDENTS SAVE FOR MEETING ONCE A WEEK, AN OCCASIONAL LECTURE, ETC. DR. MOORE PICKED YOU. THAT ***WAS*** YOUR SUMMER PROGRAM ASSIGNMENT.

Interestingly, it was she who discovered an abstract showing the kind of cancer research I was capable of doing--she did attempt to minimize that because I had nuns for sponsors and therefore 'didn't do the work herself --but since the melanoma had come from Roswell Park in New York, she had to admit that

YOU BEST STICK TO QUOTES, JUDYTH. :-) INDEED, I DID FIND THE ABSTRACT. I WAS TRYING TO CHASE DOWN YOUR CLAIMS OF HAVING PRESENTED THE PAPER TO THE "INDIANA BIOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION" WHICH, AFTER GOING ALL THE WAY TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE IN INDIANA I DISCOVERED DID NOT EXIST, NOR HAD IT EVER EXISTED. I DID HAVE REPLIES FROM A COUPLE PROFESSORS WHO SUGGESTED THE INDIANA ACADEMY OF SCIENCE ... AND THAT WAS IT. I GOT IN TOUCH WITH THE SECRETARY AND LIBRARIAN AND CAME UP WITH YOUR ABSTRACT AND OTHER INFO. AND I MADE SURE YOU GOT A COPY. YOU'RE WELCOME. I COULD HAVE KEPT SILENT ON HAVING TRACKED DOWN YOUR ABSTRACT BY THE WAY, AND NO ONE WOULD HAVE EVER BEEN THE WISER, BUT I DO NOT OPERATE THAT WAY. I WAS LOOKING FOR FACTS, AND PRESENTED THEM REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY FELL.

I had done some real cancer research that the nuns had not been involved with, in order to get my hands on it now from the same place that she says i was 'dismissed ' from, when i was embedded in Dr. Moore's lab, not Dr. Mirand's. Dr. Moore happened to be the Director of Roswell Park, and he made the ultimate decision.

YOU GOT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THESE REVISIONS, JUDYTH!!! NOW YOU CLAIM YOU GOT THE MELANOMA YOU NEEDED FOR YOUR WORK AT ST. FRANCIS COLLEGE FROM ROSWELL PARK. BUT IN 2004 IT WAS A DIFFERENT STORY. HERE IT IS IN YOUR OWN WORDS, FROM AN E-MAIL WIM DANKBAAR POSTED ON ALT.CONSPIRACY.JFK THAT AUGUST: (AM ONLY BOLDING THE PART ABOUT WHERE SHE GOT THE CANCER SPECIMENS FOR HER ARTICLE)

*************

>Dear Wim, and all:

>the attachment here

>http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/images/cancerresearcharticle.jpg

>(Link inserted by Wim)

>shows that I prepared (and presented as well) a

>professional research paper to The Indiana Biological Association, and

>proving that I was doing cancer research IN COLLEGE, not just in high

>school as Debra Conway claims.

>I have other citations as well. the

>Association merged with another organization, but met at Indianapolis

>and at Notre Dame. Note that in the other article, I received the

>equivalent of $8,400 in today's funds form the National Science

>Foundation to study what makes cancer more deadly while in college.

>In

>this article, specifivcally, malignant melanoma was the topic. My paper

>was on melanogenesis, and I had equipment, malignant melanoma cells,

>everything, sent to me by Drs. Ravdin, Ochsner and Diehl of the American

>Cancer Society. See attachment. Use magnifier to make reading easier.

> The only reasonn they didn;t print my article in their jounrla was

>because I did not have a degree, and they were emabrrassed to have

>something by an 18 year old in their journal!

>G=Four nuns, one of them

>a doctor, the other a radiobiologist, accompanied to provide the

>credentials and verification that I'd done the work and obtained the

>results I obtained.

> I was given a full scholarship the next semester to do continued

>research at the University of Florida, and my grants followed me there,

>thanks to Senator George Smathers, who arranged it all after my parents

>objected to my remaining at the Catholic college (St. Francis, where I

>was now thinking abouit becoming a nun).

> My work there was kept rather under wraps because of my age and lack

>of a degree, because U of FLa wanted the money, but not the notoriety,

>of 'sponsoring' an 18 year old 'researcher' in their brand new labs

>alongside grad students and doctors, etc. I did considerable flunky work

>there as well, but continued until spring, 19963,. diligently working on

>cancer-related projects under a special license covering my work and

>others, in a never-to-be-repeated independent issuance of licenses to do

>work with radiation--issued for itself, BY itself, and thus getting

>around state regulations that wopuld not have allowed a minor, among

>other problems, to work with human tissues. Yes, I have the record of

>these special licensures. Of course they were not issued 'just' for me,

>but I was umbrellaed under their unique protective structure. The

>special self-licensure was removed not long after the assassination. I

>never thouight it was a coincidence.

> And Smathers bought a bank in my home town through which money he sent

>to me had been received.

>Of course, all those records disappeared.I

>culd find records of only two banks in the entire state that Smathers

>bought--one in the dsmall town of Bradenton, my town -- the other on the

>opposiute side of the state where Smatehers lived (or, so I was told).

> Interestingly, the other bank system that had to do with my funding

>records -- Florida national bank---got a new board member--Dr. Alton

>Ochsner--- a few years after the assassination. Hibernia handled the

>funding in New Orleans, and should be looked into as to who

>laundered...er...I mean...handled... the accounts there.

>===judyth====

******************

A newspaper article dated Sept. 10th says I recently returned from New York. Obviously, I had spent the entire summer at Roswell Park. Doing what? According to Barb, I had been dismissed and was doing nothing. She even found two (unnamed) former students who recalled me, one who agreed (sort of) that I had probably been dismissed. Wrong. Newspaper articles show the American Cancer Society, the NIH, and NSF had all given me awards. I came in late and the photographers, etc. were already there for photos. I certasinly did not give them the info. The ACS did, for publicity, because they'd gotten the report of my awards there, which have been long forgotten, while a housing violation is all that Dr.Mirand recalls from so many years ago.

I was Dr. Moore's responsibility, not his. I participated in the program Mirand ran, but I was Moore's girl.

SEE ABOVE. :-)

Barb was unable, at least at first, to understand what the very title of my cancer research project was all about (I saved her post about that), and she has had lab training.

LOL ...THAT WAS SHACKLEFORD'S CLAIM. WHERE IS HE THESE DAYS ANYWAY? AFTER DOING HIS DARNDEST TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR YOU AND EXPLAIN AWAY ALL THE CHANGES IN YOUR STORY FROM YEAR TO YEAR, HE LEFT THE NEWSGROUPS ABOUT A YEAR AGO....HIS CREDIBILITY IN SHREDS.

Dr. Theodore Concevitch from Sarasota was a real professor with an advanced degree. He agreed to teach a class if it 'made', and Doyle and others not only gave him some extra money but helped publicize the course so it 'made.' About fifteen students enrolled. Because I had to be gone a lot in science fairs, I changed my status to audit just before final exams and they let me do it because it had not been my fault. The night class was formed because these people wanted me to study Russian. It gave them a goal and they dd it. The next year, I was gone, and so was the professor, neither of us to return again.

YEAH, WE'VE ALL SEEN THAT. LOL. AND, BTW, YOU DIDN'T USED TO CLAIM YOU CHANGED TO AUDIT JUST BEFORE FINAL EXAMS, BUT MUCH SOONER.

REMEMBER:.

. Barb did not bother to mention that the first teacher was also teaching Italian and only had a bachelor's degree.

. Barb did not mention that Dr. Concevitch only taught Russian in 1960 and never again.

. Barb did not mention that there were no teachers for night classes in Russian after Dr. Concevitch left. After that, they just taught Spanish and French. Though offered the next year in the catalog, they could get no teacher to teach the course the fllowing year and as far as I know, they stopped listing Russian after awhile.

. Why did Barb not bother?

'CAUSE BARB DON'T LIE. :-) PRETTY LAME ATTEMPTED DIVE & DIVERT, JUDYTH.

. Why is she not presenting all the facts?

SEE ABOVE.

I never in a million years thought 'd have to explain every teensy weensy detail when I simply stated that Col. Doyle and the military friends of his, very hyped about the Cold War, insisted that I learn Russian and felt it was important that I do so. Why in the world would I have been there, for what heavenly reason, except I was encouraged to do so? I never signed up for another Russian course except as an audit (my first year at UF).

It is true that Platzman and Shackleford thought all of the military interest was significant. During their Cold War, kids were being recruited into the CIA--we have fund records of it--from science fairs. I never claimed that, but my researcher friends thought they had their eye on me, and I could not say aye or nay....I was actually shocked when they suggested it.

I am not responsible for what is written in Deadly Alliance. I did not see what Livingstone did with the unauthorized book they also quote from. I only corresponded with Livingstone about the book through Martin Shackleford there were a lot of errors in what he showed me. He says they got fixed, but a whole paragraph, I learned, was repeated on one page.

OH JUDYTH, JUDYTH. YOU NEVER LEARN. DO YOU THINK NO ONE HAS SAVED MULTIPLE POSTS, PAGES, QUOTES FROM YOU ...AND FROM MARTIN ... ON THAT BOOK? REALLY?

Without the efforts of obtaining Dr. Concevitch, there would not have been a night class that year at MJS. And there weren't any more after that.

YEAH, JUDYTH. RIGHT. NOT.

JUDYTH REALLY DOESN'T GIVE YOU PEOPLE MUCH RESPECT ... SHE RAMBLES ON CASUALLY AS ALWAYS, REVISING HER "FACTS" AS SHE GOES ... APPARENTLY THINKING NONE OF YOU WILL BOTHER TO CHECK THE CATALOGS, THE CORRESPONDENCE, ETC THAT TELLS YOU WHETHER HER CLAIMS ON THIS ISSUE ARE VALID OR NOT. WELL, SHE GOT BY WITH THAT SORT OF THING FOR YEARS WITH SUPPORTERS WHO ACCEPTED EVERYTHING...ESPECIALLY HER EXCUSES AND REVISIONS ... ON NOTHING BUT HER SAYSO. GUESS SHE FIGURES YOU WON'T BE ANY DIFFERENT. I HOPE YOU WILL BE. DON'T LISTEN TO ME, FIND AND READ THE FACTS, AND DO SOME RESEARCH. OUR HISTORY IS TOO IMPORTANT.

NOT INTERESTED IN ANYMORE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, JUDYTH. AM EAGER FOR YOUR NEW BOOK TO COME OUT THOUGH! I QUIT POSTING RESULTS OF MY FACT FINDING QUESTS WHEN I HEARD IT WAS COMING OUT. CAN YOU GUESS WHY?

Bests to all,

Barb :-)

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Here is the latest from my psy ops expert:

Jim, the Judyth Vary story is very interesting and one which seems to fit a typical pattern in many intel victims that I am familiar with.

When Tosh Plumlee says he thinks there is something important somewhere in Judyth's history, then I would tend to believe him. Tosh is the real deal from what I know of him. I remember an article about him many years ago about his high altitude parachute jumping which I found fascinating.

Jim, for whatever reasons, I think you have tapped into something big here with your recent interest and communications with Judyth Vary. I just don't know what it is, but it does seem to have some teeth and needs to be thoroughly researched.

I do not have the factual knowledge to evaluate the issues being argued about between Judyth and her detractors and those who doubt much of her story, and therefore I cannot evaluate who is correct on what parts of her story or not. And beyond all that I believe her claim that she has been harassed and is still being harassed. I think it is likely that it is because of some fact which is a thread that when pulled could open up a very big issue that intel does not want opened up.

I stand with my initial view that when comparing the overall situation around Judyth as described, it fits well with many of the cases I am familiar with of intel harassment of folks who know too much about certain government secrets (actual operations or just sources and methods they don't want revealed), folks that somebody high up decides have to be harassed, discredited and stalked. And often there are break-ins along with the stalking, theft of personal items, interference with personal communications and mail, harassment by the IRS and taxing authorities and other government entities and interference in obtaining and holding employment. There are even cases where complex psyops are initiated to turn one's family members against the target.

And now it is known that much of this harassment work is being subcontracted out to specialized corporations that have their own intel operations due to the government's obsession with privatization. This gives even less accountability of intel, breeds lawlessness and provides even better deniability. I can say that I am amazed at just how many resources intel agencies can muster when they want someone stalked, harassed, discredited and beat down. Intel has folks embedded almost everywhere it seems, even though it has been technically illegal for the CIA and miltel to working domestically. Read former Gov. Jesse Ventura's book if you doubt this, or consider operation mockingbird.

Coordinated Psyops programs are the big thing now and like Tosh suggests, only rarely does the government resort to murder anymore unless it is a firsthand witness who directly threatens the existence of a very important deep cover black op. And a fair number of these harassments are carried out as training operations for new intel trainees, some in miltel, some in police intel, and some in various intel units of alphabet agencies. And some of these psyops are used as human subject experiments on how to develop better mind control and interception operations in the future. There appears to be no shortage of new personnel with no consciences to do this dirty work and no apparent shortage of money to finance these operations either.

The best way to stop these illegal activities is to defend them, and these intel agencies know this and that is why some of them are so committed and addicted to raising money from illegal arms sales and drug trafficking. Some of the top officials are allowed to take a cut off the top as long as they funnel a good portion of these funds into special offshore accounts.

So you have a very interesting Lady Judyth Vary who has several important established facts surrounding her story. And then we have some respected researchers disagree with her on much of the rest of her information she has presented and claimed. They imply she is confabulating and doubt her overall veracity. And others who have heard her story believe that she is truthful but perhaps misunderstood and taken out of context.

Even if any of her story is proven to have been partly or mostly incorrect this does not impact the important facts that have already been established. In a number of cases I am very familiar with it usually turns out the reason the person is being harassed by intel is not what the target understands, it turns out to be some small detail or fact that some higher up in intel has decided must remain covered up. Sometimes this is for personal reasons to protect oneself or career, or some long term set of operations, and often to protect and ongoing program that the public would not tolerate it if it became known.

And of course there is always the somewhat infrequent case where one agency pushes a cover up too hard or carelessly on purpose in order to create a leak, and then they work to manage it the way they want. Thus they may do this to expose a program which is competing for dollars, etc., in order to discredit that program or those responsible, sometimes for political reasons, too. I don't know first hand, but I was once told of a secret conflict between the air force and Nasa over funding and that the af had instituted several operations to discredit Nasa and maker their funding much more difficult. It is possible that some agency is using the Judyth matter to pull a string to expose a competitor or stop a program they don't believe in for whatever reason. Quite often a lot of these Psyops matters are very strange in their etiology and hidden agendas.

One more thing. Now is the time for a little compassion. Whatever the way Judyth's story plays out after her book is released for sale, there appears to be no reason to disbelieve that she has had great difficulties to deal with since the JFK assassination for probably a myriad of reasons. And she is a survivor. I say hat's off to her for that and I can empathize with all that she has gone through because of being harassed, because I have seen this type of occurrence a number of times close up. It does occur, it is real, and it usually occurs for unknown reasons which typically take time and a lot of research to sort out. And the most prominent feature ALWAYS is the part related to the DISCREDITING of the target, which is accomplished by top experts in many cases. This strong effort is always a part of any "interception" psyop whether or not related to embellishments or claims of ones story.

I have been told of a number of cases where a high level "asset" with a lot of first hand knowledge of criminal deep cover black ops wanted to "retire". In order to be allowed to walk away with no future ties, the op must agree to allow himself to be arrested, tried and convicted for some offense (whether he did it or not) and it might involve the use of a photo-accurate double if necessary. The more serious the operations that the op was involved in (especially seriously criminal and international deep cover black ops), the more serious the rigged offense and the longer the jail time, that is, the more total the discrediting must be.

Some ops who go off the reservation are arrested for trumped up offenses and some are real, like Edwin Wilson, who broke the law at the direction of his "country" and then was hung out to dry because he allegedly got sloppy and got caught. Or Michael Reconosuito who went off the reservation and testified in the infamous and unresolved Inslaw case and has been made a permanent intel prisoner because of it. Or take the case of Aldrich Ames who was supposedly arrested to being a double agent and taking money as a part of his regular job. This is standard operating procedure for some agents in his capacity and position. But the real reason he was arrested and put away was that he was the one the German BKA called regarding the plane headed for "Lockerbee" and said there is a bomb being loaded on the plane, what do yo want us to do? Ames allegedly said, "let it go" and this was allegedly done to get rid of Charles Tiny McKee and his crew which uncovered the opium pipeline via TWA and were coming back to report it and stop it. That is allegedly the real reason that Ames sits in prison, it was his competitors way of justice.

It is always important to understand that interception ops and psyoops are usually conducted according to formulas which have been determined in the field over many years to be effective. The local police and Sheriffs usually always "stand-down" when credentials and badges are flipped out. Employers usually want to "serve their country" especially after the 9/11 attacks with all the concern for "terrorism". Utility companies, phone and internet providers jump like a monkey on a string to requests for assistance. The major media are usually very, very compliant with requests by intel. You get the picture here. It is very hard for a victim to ever get a fair shake.

Here is another response that Judyth sent me some time ago, but I am only getting around to posting at this time. Obviously, some are more important than others and this one is not very. But I have many others to post that are.

Response from Judyth:

---NOT A WORD OF THIS IS TRUE EXCEPT FOR THE WORDS 'HUMAN GENOME."

MY FRIEND JOHN LEBEAU AND I DECIDED TO SET UP A WEBSITE TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE HUMANE GENOME PROJECT AND WHAT WE BELIEVED WERE DANGERS OF IT. WE LOST THE PASSWORD AND COULDN'T CHANGE IT OR DELETE IT, AND IT'S STILL UP, LAST I HEARD. IT ASKED FOR DONATIONS, BUT OF CURSE, WE NEVER GOT ANY SINCE WE DID NOT HAVE THE ADDRESS EVEN PUT IN YET!

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN GENETIC MANIPULATION AND ON SCRIBD, I HAVE PUBLISHED AN ESSAY ABOUT CYBORGS.

THAT'S ABOUT IT. WHERE IN THE WORLD DID JACK GET THIS FROM?

MAYBE HE WAS SENT DISINFO. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING I EVER POSTED SAYING THAT. IF ANYBODY COMES UP WITH IT, CONSIDER THE POST ALTERED, AS I DID KEEP COPIES OF MANY POSTS, THANK GOD.

At one time JVB claimed to be working on the HUMAN GENOME PROJECT for the government.

Then she got silent on this when a congresswoman named Judy Baker became involved in

the project. As I recall, she was into breeding a certain breed of dogs as part of the government

project.

I seem to recall that she had an interest in UFOs...but that is no reason to discredit her. I too

am interested in the UFO phenomenon.

Jack

Judith's story kind of remains me of 'Lisa Howard and Dorothy Killgalen... Howard is reported to have had an affair with Fidel Castro in the early sixties . She was murdered sometime after that. The details of the real reasons why she was even sent to Cuba were kept very secret by the CIA and DoJ for years. I flew her to Cuba on a few occasions as well as Roselli. Anyway the M.O. in the Judith case are remarkable similar in my view point. Howard knew Kilgalen and both of them came up dead under strange circumstances. Was it because of the alleged affair with Castro, or was there some other reasons for her death? That is another interesting story on both of these deaths, that history has not recorded properly, but has been heavily speculated upon and those false speculations have become facts and history to this generation. I see a similar repeated M.O. in all these stories... mine included.

[Jack White]

Independent of JVB, this report by the anonymous psyops expert IS VERY VALUABLE for several reasons.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Just a point of clarification. When I have in the past posted that I think you are wrong, I was talking

about your dismissive attitude toward Judyth as though her story had no significance for JFK research.

But there may be several dimensions of importance beyond my emphasis upon the redemption of Lee

as a human being with real interests and a social existence instead of the social misfit that he has for

so long been portrayed. I completely agree that there may be more to all of this than harassing her

for that reason alone. So we may be gradually converging in our thoughts about Judyth Vary Baker.

Independent of JVB, this report by the anonymous psyops expert IS VERY VALUABLE for several reasons.

Jack

Edited March 5, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

Just a point of clarification. When I have in the past posted that I think you are wrong, I was talking

about your dismissive attitude toward Judyth as though her story had no significance for JFK research.

But there may be several dimensions of importance beyond my emphasis upon the redemption of Lee

as a human being with real interests and a social existence instead of the social misfit that he has for

so long been portrayed. I completely agree that there may be more to all of this than harassing her

for that reason alone. So we may be gradually converging in our thoughts about Judyth Vary Baker.

Independent of JVB, this report by the anonymous psyops expert IS VERY VALUABLE for several reasons.

Jack

I believe ALL elements of JFK evidence need to be studied dispassionately and without prejudgment

or personal opinions getting in the way. This includes JVB, James Files, Chauncey Holt...and even

things like Bugliosi and Posner. There are nuggets of information in most things which need to

be separated from the dross. However, when sifting of the evidences settles, we are nothing but

collectors of information unless we reach deductions and conclusions from the information. Not

everyone will reach the same conclusions from the same evidence. Hung juries are common.

A valuable study of JVB would be a gathering of all points that she claims, and checking everything

for accuracy compared to known records, and any significance noted.

I for one have never read (other than postings) ANY of the books or papers on the subject...all

second hand and perhaps unreliable. I have read her profile statement to the Manatee alumni

newsletter, but no acutal writings...only quotes from them. I hope that when her book comes out,

someone will make a LISTING of all of the JVB claims. Some may check out, some may not.

Jack

[Linda Minor]

Just a point of clarification. When I have in the past posted that I think you are wrong, I was talking about your dismissive attitude toward Judyth as though her story had no significance for JFK research....

A valuable study of JVB would be a gathering of all points that she claims, and checking everything for accuracy compared to known records, and any significance noted. I for one have never read (other than postings) ANY of the books or papers on the subject...all second hand and perhaps unreliable. I have read her profile statement to the Manatee alumni newsletter, but no acutal writings...only quotes from them. I hope that when her book comes out, someone will make a LISTING of all of the JVB claims. Some may check out, some may not.

Jack

Her first book came out several years ago and does indeed contain very valuable evidence, some of which I referred to in my post yesterday on this thread, before I took her book off the shelf and searched more closely what she had said there about William Monaghan's association with William B. Reily, who owned the coffee companies where Judyth and Lee worked together. Chapter 20 is entitled "INCA," and quotes from Bill Davy's excellent book about Monaghan, and also from HSCA transcripts about Gerry Patrick Hemming's contacts in New Orleans with Monaghan's employer, Reily himself.

[Pamela Brown]

I think the question we all have to ask is, "Who is still alive who would want Judyth silenced?"

Nice research, Linda.

It seems to me that there are some in the Ongoing Coverup who define the scenario as Judyth V the WCR+Marina. For some reason, it seems that Marina has to be 'protected' from Judyth (she has refused so far to speak to anyone connected with Judyth). It also seems that Marina's testimony within the WCR needs to be 'protected at all costs'. Were there to be another source of first-hand information about Lee Oswald, not to mention from someone who can account for his time in NOLA when Marina cannot, the public might see what a sham the WCR was, and might even realize that Marina's testimony was a result of her being forced into sequestration with the SS and FBI and threatened with deportation unless she told them what they wanted to hear.

The reaction against Judyth coming forward has been so violent, especially at the level of the press (re the 60 Minutes episode and the sandbagging of Anna Lewis) that it would seem that all our understanding of the assassination would be changed if she were allowed to have an open forum and everyone was allowed to weigh and evaluate what she has to say.

[Linda Minor]

I think the question we all have to ask is, "Who is still alive who would want Judyth silenced?"

Nice research, Linda.

It seems to me that there are some in the Ongoing Coverup who define the scenario as Judyth V the WCR+Marina. For some reason, it seems that Marina has to be 'protected' from Judyth (she has refused so far to speak to anyone connected with Judyth). It also seems that Marina's testimony within the WCR needs to be 'protected at all costs'. Were there to be another source of first-hand information about Lee Oswald, not to mention from someone who can account for his time in NOLA when Marina cannot, the public might see what a sham the WCR was, and might even realize that Marina's testimony was a result of her being forced into sequestration with the SS and FBI and threatened with deportation unless she told them what they wanted to hear.

The reaction against Judyth coming forward has been so violent, especially at the level of the press (re the 60 Minutes episode and the sandbagging of Anna Lewis) that it would seem that all our understanding of the assassination would be changed if she were allowed to have an open forum and everyone was allowed to weigh and evaluate what she has to say.

When I used the word "silenced," it was a euphemism. Since Judyth has lived in exile for such a long time, she really believes her life is in jeopardy. My question is really about who would want to kill her to keep her quiet? I personally don't see Marina as a factor in that.

In Judyth's 2006 published book--Lee Harvey Oswald--at pages 325-326, she mused about the connection between her supervisor at the coffee company, William I. Monaghan (who had a career in the FBI before moving on to work for Standard Fruit Co.) and his boss, the owner of the corporation, William B. Reily. She said:

"I have long considered the fact that my boss, Mr. Monaghan, was told about the raid by 'Mr. Reily,' (presumably William) rather than by Guy Banister or Lee. Reily's interests in eliminating Castro were directly related to fears that the spread of communism in Latin America could result in the nationalization of the coffee plantations--and potential ruin for the William B. Reily Coffee Company.

"Gerry Patrick Hemming, the tall, bold leader of Interpen, was interviewed by the HSCA concerning any association he might have had with training camps--and their supporters--in the New Orleans area. After Hemming mentioned twice that he believed he saw Dave Ferrie at 'the airport' in New Orleans, Hemming was asked:

000160

22 With respect to New Orleans, did you ever have occasion to meet William B. Reilly?

24 The Witness. Yes; at the airport 25 Mr. Triplett. What were the circumstances?

000161

1 The Witness. That is the owner of the plane. 2 Mr. Triplett. He owned the plane?

3 The Witness. He owned the plane we flew in. 4 Mr. Triplett. The Cessna? 5 The Witness. Yes.

"Hemming then stated that 'Reilly' [sic] 'is the name of the man that' owned the Cessna that flew him into New Orleans for anti-Castro business:

22 Mr. Triplett. Now, you say you met Reilly at the airport?

24 The Witness. That is the name of the man that [met me].

"The interrogator must have been surprised to hear the name of the wealthy New Orleans socialite, since he asked Hemming twice to identify Reily. Hemming then went on to describe 'Reilly' [sic] as 'a coffee man' who had something to do with 'Lozian coffee in New Orleans.' [sic]

11 Mr. Triplett. Did you ever have occasion to meet Clay Shaw?

13 The Witness. No. Reilly. Reilly. Reilly. The Reilly we met was a coffee man that Bartes had done business with in Cuba, a coffee man. Bartes owned the railroads in Cuba; president of the railroad system. He dealt in sugar and coffee. He had something to do with Lozian coffee in New Orleans."

I would appreciate any help researchers good offer to locate the transcript of this interview in the HSCA papers.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Linda Minor

[Jack White]

The JVB affair seems to be entering a whole new phase now,

with her taking credit for being behind the Zapruder film

work of Doug Horne's Hollywood Seven. I am baffled.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

Judyth has explained that Sydney Wilkinson saw her in "The Love Affair" and contacted her in an earlier post in response to Bill Kelly's fanciful suggestion that Judyth has provided no new evidence and no new witnesses. Bill has this penchant for posting about matters where he knows very little. They have been close friends ever since, where Sydney has copies of all her evidence and film rights as well. Here is part of what Judyth has had to say: "Due to my close association with Sydney Wilkinson, and urging her to help me prove Lee's innocence, she firmly believing me after long association, purchased a true copy of the Zapruder film, gathered analysts in Hollywood who were film restoration specialists, and proved the Zapruder film had frame 113 painted in the back of the head, and much more, which she revealed to Doug Horne in his book INSIDE THE ARRB." If you read pages 1352-1353 of Vol. IV, Doug mentions that Sydney introduced herself to him and "revealed to [Doug] in short order that she had purchases a dupe negative on 35 mm film of the Forensic Copy of the Zapruder Film created by the National Archives." Surely it is not far-fetched to infer that, after becoming acquainted with Judyth's story, she might do something like that, and then reach out to Doug, where they had a remarkable confluence of interest. Notice the Hollywood angle seems to come to Doug from out of the blue. As Judyth appropriately asks, "Would Sydney Wilkinson had purchased the film and done this research had we not met?" It would not surprise me at all if the answer to that question were, "No!"

Jim

The JVB affair seems to be entering a whole new phase now,

with her taking credit for being behind the Zapruder film

work of Doug Horne's Hollywood Seven. I am baffled.

Jack

Edited March 5, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Some extracts from Edward T. Haslam, Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics

Chapter 17

The Witness

......

60M ["60 Minutes"] asked Oswald’s girl friend all the logical questions: “Where are you from? Why were you in New Orleans? Where did you work? Where did you live? How did you meet Lee? What did you do together? Did you ever hear the subject of killing JFK discussed?” And Oswald’s girlfriend kept answering them. Before long 60M realized that their sizzling little romance between a beautiful young woman and a soon-to-be-accused assassin had morphed into an 800 pound gorilla with “serious politics” written all over it. The adulteress sitting in front of them stated that she and Lee Harvey Oswald stood side-by-side in an underground medical laboratory located in David Ferrie’s apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway in New Orleans and that she was the laboratory technician that handled the cancer-causing monkey viruses which were being used to develop a biological weapon for the purpose of killing Fidel Castro. To put the icing on the cake, the entire project was secretly directed by the famous Dr. Alton Ochsner (former President of the American Cancer Society) and supervised by a prestigious cancer researcher named Dr. Mary Sherman who worked for Dr. Ochsner at his hospital. Further, after successfully killing numerous monkeys with their new biological weapon, this group had tested it on a human subject in a mental hospital, killing the human. Lethal human experiments! Leaders of American medicine and the accused assassin of the American President involved together in developing a biological weapon! Can you hear 60M’s signature sound effect ticking in the background?

........

When it became clear that the woman brought to me by 60M was not the same person I met in 1972, I realized that I had met two separate women claiming to be “Judyth Vary Baker” who claimed to have known “Lee Oswald.” Simply said, one had to be an impostor. With the information available to me at that time, I could not tell 60M which one was the impostor. I hoped they would be able to tell me. At that point, 60M pulled the plug on the Judyth story. The rank-and-file CBS producers and investigators had worked hard on the story. They were extremely disappointed by the decision from their bosses to terminate the story. One insider forwarded me an email written by a senior 60M executive in which he stated that 60M had spend more time and money investigating Judyth’s story than they had on any story in their 20 year history. To refuse to air the story after making that kind of investment was difficult decision for them. It makes one wonder “Who really made 60M’s decision to abort?” and “Why?”

After the 60M debacle, I contacted Judyth Vary Baker directly. I was curious about this unusual woman and wanted to learn more about her. If she could show me that she was the real Judyth Vary Baker, then it meant the other Judyth Vary Baker that I had met in 1972 was the impostor. This raised some very interesting questions: Why would someone have gone to the trouble to impersonate Baker back in 1972? How did they know who she was? How did they know about her connection to Oswald? Why was I invited to her party? Why did they tell me her name?

............

Judyth picked a restaurant where she knew the owner. When we got there, she introduced me to the owner who remembered her fondly, and we were shown a table in the back where we could talk. For the next several hours, Judyth displayed binders of documents she had collected and neatly organized over the years and told me her story, page by page. It was only then that I really began to understand the dimensions of what she was saying. Finally, I looked at her carefully, studying her pensive blue eyes and her coke-bottle thick glasses, and said “You are telling me that you personally stood in David Ferrie’s apartment with Lee Oswald at your side, day after day, and worked with cancer-causing monkey viruses so that you could develop a biological weapon to kill Fidel Castro?”

“Yes,” she said.

.............

Several years after the Warren Commission “investigation,” the investigators working for New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison tracked down another young woman named Anna Lewis, a waitress who worked at Thompson’s Restaurant - a favorite gathering spot for the anti-Castro crowd around Lafayette Square in downtown New Orleans. At the time, Anna was married to David Lewis, who had worked for another “ex-FBI” agent Guy Banister. Today we have video testimony from Anna Lewis recorded in 2003 and made available on the internet by Dutch JFK researcher Wim Dankbaar. In this interview, Anna clearly states that she knew Lee Oswald and that Oswald was a regular customer at Thompson’s in 1963. Further, she states that she and her husband socialized with Lee and Judyth together on a number of occasions. More importantly Anna Lewis admits that she lied to District Attorney Garrison and his investigators when they asked her about Oswald. Had Anna Lewis told Garrison the truth, Garrison could have easily tracked down Judyth. Garrison was already suspicious of Ochsner and his role in the media exposure of Oswald. If Garrison had had access to Judyth, and if Judyth told Garrison what she now tells us - that she and Lee were working on a biological weapon project under the direction of Dr. Alton Ochsner, Garrison’s investigation (and his whole life) might have turned out very differently. But she didn’t. Anna Lewis lied to Garrison because she was afraid. Meanwhile, Judyth hid silently because she was afraid. Two critical pieces of evidence were unavailable to the American people and their elected representatives (like Garrison) at the time they were pondering who killed their President. Now that we know differently, is it time to reconsider our history?

............

This may be intoxicating news for those concerned about Judyth’s credibility and what she can tell us about Lee Oswald, but it is sobering to those of us worried about the fate of the biological weapon. This means that Judyth Vary Baker really did have the technical skills to handle the cancer-causing monkey viruses that might be used to create a biological weapon. Yes, Judyth Vary Baker had the technical qualifications to be “the technician” that did “the bench work” in the Ferrie-Sherman medical laboratory. Hearing Judyth admit that as a 19-year old she assisted Lee Harvey Oswald, David Ferrie, Dr. Mary Sherman, and Dr. Alton Ochsner in their efforts to develop a biological weapon is … a brain-buster! I guess I have my witness.

Jack,

Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.

From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?

Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.

My Best,

Ed Haslam

Edited March 6, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Some extracts from Edward T. Haslam, Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics

Chapter 17

The Witness (Extract 2)

Here is a brief summary of the parts of Judyth’s story that are relevant to the our inquiry. A more in depth account is the appendix entitled “Judyth’s Story.”

1. Judyth went to New Orleans in the summer of 1963 at the invitation of Dr. Alton Ochsner.

2. Ochsner had known Judyth for several years and had previously arranged for her to be trained at the famous cancer research center discussed above.

3. Ochsner promised Judyth early-admission to Tulane Medical School in return for her services in Dr. Mary Sherman’s cancer lab at Ochsner Clinic. Ochsner also provided her with cancer research papers on the state-of-the-art techniques such as cancer-causing viruses.

4. Judyth wound up working under Sherman’s direction in the underground medical laboratory in David Ferrie’s apartment instead of in her cancer lab at the Ochsner clinic.

5. Judyth met Lee Oswald at the Post Office in what she thought was a chance encounter. In hind-sight, she realized that this had to be intentional, since Lee was already working with David Ferrie, Dr. Mary Sherman and Dr. Alton Ochsner on the bio-weapon at the time. Lee introduced her to “Dr. David Ferrie” the following day and helped Judyth find an apartment.

6. When Judyth went to meet Dr. Ochsner in a room within the bowels of Charity Hospital, Lee Oswald accompanied her to the appointment and went in first to meet with Dr. Ochsner alone.

7. Lee was working with ex-FBI agent Guy Banister as has been reported by many sources. Lee took Judyth to meet Banister in his office to satisfy her concerns that the bio-weapons project is really a secret government operation. Banister confirmed that Lee was working with them on a get-Castro project.10

8. When Judyth went to Dr. Sherman’s apartment for a private dinner with her, David Ferrie was the only other guest. Sherman and Ferrie discussed the nature of their project with Judyth. They deemed the idea of using cancer-causing viruses to kill Castro as morally ethical since is might prevent World War III. Lee phoned Judyth that same night at Sherman’s apartment. Dr. Mary Sherman was the operational director of “the project.” Ferrie and Oswald were participants.

9. Lee escorted and transported Judyth all over town, including to Dr. Sherman’s apartment where Judyth dropped off “the product” and related reports for Sherman’s review. Lee was “the runner.”

10. Judyth and Lee were provided cover-jobs at Reily Coffee Company where they were allowed to slip out several afternoons a week to work in the underground medical laboratory in David Ferrie’s apartment. 11

11. Lee Oswald’s connections to the Mafia in New Orleans are much stronger than have ever been reported publicly.

12 Judyth and Lee ate-for-free at restaurants owned by Carlos Marcello and went to his headquarters (500 Club and Town & Country Motel).

12. Lee’s role in the kill-Castro portion of the project was to transport the bio-weapon into Cuba. The radio debates and film clips of Oswald’s leafleting were arranged by Ochsner (at Oswald’s request) to make Oswald appear to be an authentic defector so he could get into Cuba more easily.

13. Judyth heard the subject of assassinating JFK was discussed at various times by various people, including Ferrie, Sherman and Oswald. Part of the logic that was explained to Judyth was that they had to hurry up and kill Castro with their bio-weapon before Ochsner’s friend ran out of patience and decided to kill Kennedy instead.

14. After testing their bio-weapon on dozens of monkeys, they arranged to test it on a human “volunteer,” a convict brought from Angola State Penitentiary to the Jackson State Mental Hospital in rural Louisiana for that purpose. The weapon was successful. The man died in 28 days as a result.

15. Judyth wrote a letter to Dr. Ochsner protesting the use of an unwitting human in their bio-weapon test and delivered it to his secretary.13 Upon seeing the letter, Ochsner exploded in anger and threatened both Judyth and Lee. Everything fell apart for Judyth as a result. Ochsner reneged on his offer to place Judyth in Tulane Medical School. Lee was ordered to Dallas. Judyth went back to Florida with her husband.

16. For the next few months, Judyth and Lee stayed in contact by telephone, thanks to access to the Mafia’s “secret” Miami-to-Las Vegas sports betting lines courtesy of David Ferrie. While the phone company and the U.S. Government might not have been able to listen to their conversations, the Mafia would have been able to!

17. On Wednesday, November 20, 1963, Lee told Judyth that there would be a real attempt to kill President Kennedy when he visits Dallas on Friday. It is the last time they talked.

But we are not here to figure out who killed JFK. We are trying to understand who was using radiation to mutate monkey viruses and why. Judyth’s testimony is an important piece of the puzzle for us to have. Judyth’s account means that a witness who participated in “the project” (as they called it) has confessed that both she and Lee Oswald were operational members of the Ferrie-Sherman underground medical laboratory and that they knew that they were developing a biological weapon. This is a major point. Think about how difficult it would have been to investigate and prosecute Lee Oswald in a court of law for killing Kennedy without exposing that laboratory, its sponsors, the cancer-causing viruses that contaminated the polio vaccine, and all of the ethical and medical questions arising from their irradiation of a flotilla of dangerous monkey viruses. Can you imagine the publicity? The political fall-out? With one side of Lee’s life connected to anti-Communists like Ochsner, Reily, and Banister (and perhaps the FBI and the CIA) and the other side connected to Carlos Marcello and almost everyone around him, Oswald’s trial would have exposed everything. Whether Oswald had anything to do with killing Kennedy or not, the exposure of a trial would have created obvious problems for the sponsors of the lab.

Like the cover-up which dumped Mary Sherman’s burned and mangled corpse into her apartment, Lee’s murder was deemed “a necessity” to protect the underground medical laboratory and its sponsors. In doing so, they silenced the man who could have explained what really happened (or perhaps what did not happen) in Dallas on November 22, 1963. 14 Perhaps this was part of their plan all along.

Today, Judyth’s goal is to exonerate Lee Oswald. She will never stop her crusade to clear his name. I consider the bulk of what she has said to be as accurate as she can be held accountable for. She is explaining what happened in her life to the best of her ability. I have seen people that I knew were in the same room with each other at the same time disagree on what happened. Disagreement is not the acid test of truth. Events are always colored by perception. Judyth knows what she heard and knows what she believes, much of which is what she was led to believe by others. Yes, Judyth loved Lee. Judyth believed Lee. Judyth trusted Lee. She also trusted Dr. Alton Ochsner, Dr. Mary Sherman and David Ferrie. She was really there with Lee Oswald in New Orleans. She was young, impressionable, naïve and gullible. Somewhere along the line both she and Lee were betrayed. But there is a limit to what she knows. Judyth was not in Dallas on November 22, 1963.15 We all need to distinguish between what she personally saw and heard versus what she understands or believes to be the case. Both her critics and her supporters need to make these distinctions. So does she. So do I.

Next we look at what Judyth said that disagrees with things I wrote in earlier editions of this book.

First, I remind the reader that I did not feel that I had strong enough evidence in hand to endorse the claimed connection between Mary Sherman and David Ferrie without reservation and that I challenged any researcher to come foreword with real evidence or testimony that they were associated. They did.16 Judyth clearly states Mary Sherman knew David Ferrie well. In fact, Judyth had dinner with Sherman and Ferrie at Sherman’s apartment. Judyth is adamant that Mary Sherman was definitely part of the cancer-virus research project that was going on at David Ferrie’s apartment. In fact, part of Judyth’s daily operational cycle was to bring “the extracts” of her cancer-causing virus research from Ferrie’s apartment to Mary Sherman’s apartment. She also clearly states that Dr. Alton Ochsner was ultimately in charge of the Ferrie-Sherman lab. And that both she and Lee Oswald were part of the effort to use the cancer-causing monkey viruses to develop a biological weapon. No, David Ferrie had not run off with the mice after the Big Lab was shut down as I had suggested. The mice were delivered to his apartment several times per week for processing as part of the operation. To my mind, this has always been what I called “the worst case scenario” - the confirmed existence of the secret cooperation between talented scientists, dangerous radioactive equipment, monkey viruses and political extremists in an underground medical laboratory.

Just a point of clarification. When I have in the past posted that I think you are wrong, I was talking about your dismissive attitude toward Judyth as though her story had no significance for JFK research....

A valuable study of JVB would be a gathering of all points that she claims, and checking everything for accuracy compared to known records, and any significance noted. I for one have never read (other than postings) ANY of the books or papers on the subject...all second hand and perhaps unreliable. I have read her profile statement to the Manatee alumni newsletter, but no acutal writings...only quotes from them. I hope that when her book comes out, someone will make a LISTING of all of the JVB claims. Some may check out, some may not.

Jack

Her first book came out several years ago and does indeed contain very valuable evidence, some of which I referred to in my post yesterday on this thread, before I took her book off the shelf and searched more closely what she had said there about William Monaghan's association with William B. Reily, who owned the coffee companies where Judyth and Lee worked together. Chapter 20 is entitled "INCA," and quotes from Bill Davy's excellent book about Monaghan, and also from HSCA transcripts about Gerry Patrick Hemming's contacts in New Orleans with Monaghan's employer, Reily himself.

Edited March 6, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Some extracts from Edward T. Haslam, Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the Unsolved Murder of a Doctor, a Secret Laboratory in New Orleans and Cancer-Causing Monkey Viruses are Linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination and Emerging Global Epidemics

Chapter 17

The Witness (Extract 3)

But did they use radiation to mutate the monkey viruses?

I wrote to Judyth and said that I needed to know specifically if she had been told that the viruses she was working with at David Ferrie’s apartment had been exposed to radiation at another location to change them genetically? I told her I wanted to make sure that no one can find any ambiguity in her statement or be able to misinterpret it, so I was going to put a magnifying glass on it. I needed clarification. I needed her to confirm or deny it based on what she knew? My exact words were:

“My question is about your time in New Orleans in the summer of

1963… Do I understand that you are saying that you were told that the

extracts that you prepared at David Ferrie's apartment and delivered to

Mary Sherman's apartment were being subjected to radiation and then

recycled into more mice? Do I have this right?”

Judyth’s response:

===

EXACTLY...ALSO, INTO MONKEYS. MANY WERE KILLED, BUT THEY

ORDERED THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF NEW MONKEYS…

===

I continued:

“By your term ‘we all knew it’ who are you referring to? Could I ask

you to answer ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to each person on this list separately. The

question is: Did you personally discussed exposing your tumor

extracts to radiation with this person:”

Judyth’s response:

Mary Sherman-- SHE WAS THE ONE IN CHARGE OF DOING THIS

Lee Oswald-- YES. HE ONCE TOOK ONE BATCH OVER TO CRIPPLED

CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL AND MET HER THERE BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T

HAVE TIME TO GET THEM FROM HER APARTMENT...

Alton Ochsner --- HE WAS IN CHARGE OF THE PROJECT. DR. SHERMAN

WAS AFRAID HE WAS BEING EXPLOITED AND DIDN'T REALIZE THE

FULL SIGNIFICANCE, THAT OTHERS COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON

THIS MATERIAL. BUT HE KEPT HIMSELF WHITE AS SNOW, THOUGH

HE WASN'T. DR. MARY DIDN'T TRUST HIM.

David Ferrie --YES

Bill Monahan -- THAT IS MONAGHAN.... NO, HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING

EXCEPT THEY NEEDED ME FOR LAB WORK ON COMPANY TIME AND

HE HAD TO DO WORK I WAS SUPPOSED TO DO, WHICH IRRITATED

HIM.

They used radiation to mutate their monkey viruses!

Was Judyth the technician in David Ferrie’s underground medical laboratory? She admits that she was, despite the obvious legal, ethical and security consequences of doing so. Were they irradiating cancer-causing viruses to develop a biological weapon? Judyth participated in that operation and said that their use of radiation was both deliberate and central to the design of the project. Was the operation in David Ferrie’s apartment connected to operation at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital? Judyth says it was.

The consequences of these statements are terrifying!

Frankly, I would have preferred to have been wrong. It appears that I was not. These were very dark deeds indeed. They may have been “the dark deed” whose price the population of the planet still pays today. I doubt this connection will ever be proven to the satisfaction of the critics. But they do not control us nor the truth!

At least I understand why my father was so upset about, when he learned what was going on down at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital.

So we are left with questions. Questions that Judyth Vary Baker cannot answer. Questions I cannot answer. Questions that deserve better answers. Questions like:

* Which monkey viruses did their radiation genetically alter? Was SIV one? 17

* What happened to their collection of mutated monkey viruses after Judyth left?

* Did any of these mutated monkey viruses “escape” into the human population?

* Will Judyth’s price for clearing Lee Oswald’s name be the sacrifice of her own?

Fortunately we can still ask questions like these. One has to wonder what will happen if we ever stop?

I think the question we all have to ask is, "Who is still alive who would want Judyth silenced?"

Nice research, Linda.

It seems to me that there are some in the Ongoing Coverup who define the scenario as Judyth V the WCR+Marina. For some reason, it seems that Marina has to be 'protected' from Judyth (she has refused so far to speak to anyone connected with Judyth). It also seems that Marina's testimony within the WCR needs to be 'protected at all costs'. Were there to be another source of first-hand information about Lee Oswald, not to mention from someone who can account for his time in NOLA when Marina cannot, the public might see what a sham the WCR was, and might even realize that Marina's testimony was a result of her being forced into sequestration with the SS and FBI and threatened with deportation unless she told them what they wanted to hear.

The reaction against Judyth coming forward has been so violent, especially at the level of the press (re the 60 Minutes episode and the sandbagging of Anna Lewis) that it would seem that all our understanding of the assassination would be changed if she were allowed to have an open forum and everyone was allowed to weigh and evaluate what she has to say.

Edited March 6, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Here is my psy op expert's response to Ed Haslam's complete Chapter 17, which includes the extracts that I have posted:

Jim, although I don't know him or anything about him, this man letter here comes off 100% credible to me and I think his analysis makes very good sense. It explains why there has been such a great effort to discredit Judyth's story, to harass her and create confusion. And this man's knowledge from his investigating supports my suggestion that even though Judyth is obsessed with informing the world for the first time of Oswald's normality (that he wasn't a lone-nut-assassin and never could have been) that is not the most important part of her story as I see it (although it is important). To me the most important part of her story which now appears to have already been corroborated is the bioweapons aspect, which by the way, directly links to current, ongoing, highly classified ops going on right now with other related ops in the planning stage for several locations, including Minnesota. The funding has already been set up and is "international" for some of this.

Ed Haslam's report of the use of a double and his confusion as to who was the real Judyth suggests very high level intel involvement and a sophisticated interception ops. This kind of stuff is serious intel "tradecraft". Years ago a retired company man told me that quite a bit of the JFK Assassination research crowd including some of the organizations set up to have meetings about it were either directly dirty or had infiltrators from the company sidetracking them. It's called controlled opposition. If there is no opposition, then it is created and controlled through well developed, sophisticated means. If there is good and valid opposition, then it is infiltrated and sidetracked. This alone is so counter-intuitive to most non-intel folks that they just can conceive it or identify it when it occurs.

Several names of so called researchers were mentioned to me as dirty and some of these folks are still around today detracting from good research, running misinformation websites, muddying up the waters, spreading confusion and disinformation and running intercept ops. Some work for intel, some are sympathetic to intel, and some are just locked into (committed to) their own ego directed and incorrect line of action with no chance for openness or change in their opinions since they have a long term vested interest in staying their course. And then you have a fair number of small timers who never accomplished anything in life who attempt to make their mark on history by opposing any good work done by honest researchers who are really seeking the truth. The internet often gives them a means to do this and some come against you periodically, Jim as you know. And then you have the researchers who basically mean well but don't understand the big picture or how intel ops are directed at the top and tend to be oppositional type persons with any new discovery. And of course some just suffer from petty jealousies of those researchers who have been astoundingly productive in their discoveries.

I don't need to mention any names, one just has to think about this a while and it is usually quite easy to figure out who these oppositional folks and infiltrators are. You can know them by their fruits (there are none, just obstructions). And Jim, I know that you already know who one is because you have butted heads with him many times and his game is so transparent to anyone that know what is going on.

It's important for folks to understand that anytime a major covert op is done like the JFK murder op, the greatest efforts always go into managing the cover-up afterward which typically includes high level based, sophisticated psyops and the associated use of harassment, community mobbing techniques, interference in employment, harassment by government agencies, police and utilities, extensive surveillance and tracking, false friends and/or new neighbors, use of the media, spreading of misinformation and major efforts to discredit any important or secondary witness and confuse and muddle up the issues, etc., etc.

The duration of these ops continue until the "mr. bigs" that set up the op are dead, or the line of ops they started are discontinued and "old news". The Judyth Varon case appears to me to be a perfect example of this whole process of a sophisticated "after the fact" long term intercept cover-up op with a lot of psyops used. As you know, Jim, a very fruitful technique often used is to present arguments which are 80-90% facts and then later delivering a twisted payload that misdirects or undermines an important aspect of the matter. This is done to elicit initial credibility so that a "misinformation payload" can be later delivered.

Too much attention has now been focused on this case by folks with the moxie of this researcher and yourself, Jim. The Judyth Varon matter can no longer be covered up and the truth is now coming out. Stay tuned for where it leads but I'll predict that if this string gets pulled much more it will lead to development and funding of the HIV weapon (operation naomi), swine flu, triple helix self healing super soldier, and much more.

One of the biggest concerns now in intel is the "blowback" from the internet. It was started by darpa as the world's biggest intel gathering operation and it has served that function well with the advent of sophisticated computers and the hybrid "promis" software derivatives (echelon, estein3, barracuda, etc.). But there have been some unintended consequences such as all the information being shared via the internet and its power to assist researchers. Right now there are detailed discussion going on how to deal with this. Internet censorship may be coming soon because it is now allowing too many dots to be connected. One wonders if the long haired hippy type darpa researchers that originated the internet technology set it up as a way to later destroy the military-defense-compex/shadow government controlled system they were working for. Will the Americans stand for blatant censorship of the internet? Or will the "mr. bigs" of the shadow government decide to institute another gladio style, self inflicted "inside job" terrorist attack as some experts have predicted? Are we just one more such attack away from the invoking of martial law as one top retired General suggested?

Jack,

Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.

From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?

Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.

My Best,

Ed Haslam

Edited March 6, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Greg Burnham]

In a 1968 essay entitled The Microbiologist and His Times, Luria implored members of the American Society of Microbiologists to reconsider the ethics of their dangerous participation in covert military research. Beginning in the 1950's, an advisory committee of the Society had been cooperating with the army biowarfare laboratory at Fort Detrick, located in Frederick, Maryland.

The biology professor counseled, "The decision as to whether or not to work on biological warfare research, and on war-related research in general, is bound to be a personal one. Consciousness of the difficult issues involved dictates the utmost restraint in making value judgments concerning either those who do carry out such research or those who wish to disassociate themselves from it." Luria's personal opinion was that the Society should not be associated with the Fort Detrick biowarfare lab, and that the committee should be disbanded.

In 1969 Dr. Donald M. MacArthur appeared at a Congressional Hearing on Chemical and Biological Warfare. As Deputy Director of the Department of Defense, he was responsible for the management of diverse research and technology programs such as rocket and missile propulsion, materials technology, medical and life sciences, social and behavioral sciences, environmental sciences, and chemical technology.

Donald MacArthur declared that biowarfare experts could develop a genetically engineered "super germ" that would be very different from any previous microbe known to mankind. The agent would be a highly effective killing agent because the human immune system would be powerless against this super-microbe. This testimony was delivered in Washington before a Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations, House of Representatives, Department of Defense Appropriations for 1970, on July 1, 1969.

When questioned about the cost and time required to develop this biowarfare program, Dr. MacArthur answered that a small group of molecular biologists had considered the matter and provided the following details...

Edited March 6, 2010 by Greg Burnham