Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Dean Hagerman]

Awesome pictures Stephen!

Thanks for posting them, they are now saved to my computer

[Stephen Roy]

Errr.... "large kitchen"?

Uhhh... "underground laboatory"?

[Michael Hogan]

Jim,

It is not my praise for those authors that serves as a response to your argument.

Judyth Baker's story was in the public domain when they wrote their books.

Your strategy continues to be to disparage any methodology or any research

that does not support your argument, whatever that argument is. I suppose it

has something to do with your perception of the "real deal."

You didn't even know of Ed Haslam's research when you started this thread.

I have asked you several times to enumerate the evidence that Ed provides

in Dr Mary's Monkey that demonstrates that LHO and JVB were lovers.

HINT: That evidence does not include marmosets and particle accelerators.

Ed Haslam told Jim Marrs that it was his belief in Judyth Baker "as a person" that gives

him faith in her story and that he was not really concerned so much with the evidence.

You have a habit of jumping to conclusions that the facts don't warrant.

Paris Flammonde definitely mentions Alton Ochsner and Mary Sherman in his

book. He has spent a major portion of his life researching the events in

Garrisonian New Orleans. He does not mention Judyth Baker.

Think about it!

Nigel Turner did not mention Ed Haslam in his 2003 documentary. Why is that?

Jim, unlike you, I don't have a dog in this fight. My reputation is not on

the line. You've chosen to align yourself against the overwhelming majority

of JFK researchers and the overwhelming majority of Forum members.

You have plenty of excuses and rationalizations for why you have failed

to sway any opinions, despite the voluminous amounts of data you have

provided.

To fall back on how smart and accomplished you and Judyth are to the

exclusion of everyone else, save less than a handful of her supporters,

is the weakest argument of all, in my opinion.

Jack and Michael,

How does your praise for them serve as a response to my argument? HINT:

It doesn't! If you know no more about the methodology of historical research,

it is hardly surprising that you would be unable to uncover a missing witness.

Nigel Turner, Edward Haslam, Howard Platzman, "60 Minutes", and others, too

have done better work on this specific aspect of events in New Orleans. They

probably don't mention Alton Ochsner or Mary Sherman either. Think about it!

Incidentally, Judyth told me that Joan Mellen had interviewed her several times

and made use of information she had provided, but without acknowledging her

source. I have had encounters with Joan Mellen, and it would not surprise me.

Jim

Jim DiEugenio and Bill Davy are likely the two most knowledgeable of JFK New Orleans researchers still around.

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

You could add Paris Flammonde, William Turner and Joan Mellen to that list.

Book Two of Flammonde's Assassination of America opus is entitled The Masques of New Orleans.

He does not mention Judyth Baker.

In the Indices (Book Four), Flammonde includes a review of Bugliosi's Reclaiming History by Jim Fetzer.

There is a typo on the cover and Jim's name appears as Jamers Fetzer.

Mellen's book, A Farewell to Justice does not mention Judyth Baker. Nor does Turner's Rearview Mirror.

[Pat Speer]

God knows, it's NOT about me. It's about the truth in relation to the death of JFK. If you had spent more time reading Doug's work, you

would be much better informed about the assassination. Give me a break. You entertain a host of views that are utterly unsupportable,

such as that the Groden color-photos are not fake, that the blow-out to JFK's skull was at the top of his head, and more. You are not the

right person to be offering advice to anyone about research on JFK. I have suggested that you spend more time on David Mantik's work

especially his brilliant synthesis of the medical evidence in MURDER. To that I must add, more on Lifton and more on Horne would help.

JIM RESPONDS TO JIM DIEUGENIO COMING FROM OUT OF LEFT FIELD

Well, I embarrassed DiEugenio on another thread and I take it this is his form of retaliation. I suppose he does not mention the dates when this purported "research" was done, because it would reveal the distance in time between the original reports and testimony in relation to the Garrison trial and this (virtually irrelevant) effort expended not long before Reeves Morgan died. There is a natural decay in recollections, which in this case has obviously been exacerbated by deliberate corruption and quite possibly by witness intimidation. Most strikingly, he does not understand that there were two visits and two cars, one of which was a black Cadillac driven by Clay Shaw himself. Judyth, no doubt, will say more. When research is done properly, early testimony when memories are fresher is preferable to later. Just as this guy excoriated Horne for his admiration of David Lifton's work--apparently oblivious that the ARRB had found that there was surgery to the skull and that body alteration had taken place and that there were multiple casket entries, which meant that the key claims of his early work, BEST EVIDENCE, had been vindicated, which Horne was reporting--producing one of the most peculiar reviews I have ever read, where the reviewer apparently wrote the first part of his review completely unaware of the actual findings that would be established during the rest of its pages. This also extends to the issue of Zapruder film alteration, where DiEugnio has declined to take a stand on the ground that the research that would be involved would be too taxing! But that means he has probably not read ASSASSINATION SCiENCE, MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, or THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX, which don't leave much room for hope by anti-alterationists. Even more peculiar, he apparently doesn't know what is coming in the appendix to INSIDE THE ARRB, Vol. IV, which I summarized in "US Government Official: JKF Cover-Up, Film Fakery". I would say that his positions about the events in Jackson are on a par with his review of Horne, which was grossly incompetent. File trails are frequently distorted and incomplete, as the very post on which he is commenting convincingly demonstrates. As a friend of mine likes to say, "How dumb is that?" I used to think he was a serious scholar, but I am now persuaded that, his review of Bugliosi notwithstanding, his work should not be taken at face value. I will invite Judyth to comment in greater detail, but the thought that he and his "brain trust" are more competent and reliable than Howard Platzman or Judyth herself, in view of these considerations, is not merely a stretch but quite ridiculous. The earlier testimony of Lea McGehee, Reeves Morgan, and Mary Morgan is obviously the more reliable.

Jim, the highlighted section above is just not true. The ARRB made NO conclusions. None of the members of its board came out of their experience as supporters of Lifton's theory of body alteration. The only ARRB employee, to my knowledge, who came out of his ARRB experience a committed alterationist was Horne, who went in as a committed alterationist. Jeremy Gunn, Horne's boss, has claimed in year's past that the only thing he learned for sure about the medical evidence was that one can't trust the thirty-year old memories of old people, or something like that. Horne has spent the last decade trying to weave all the conflicting stories into a convincing whole.

But it's more like an unconvincing hole, IMO.

FWIW, IMO, you need to take your lumps and just let the Judyth story drop, if only for a while. While you may have a valid point to make, and where Judyth and her story--as improbable as it sounds--may have something to it, you have let it become personal, and about YOU. You are hurt that men you considered friends fail to trust your judgment re Judyth. You are now claiming DiEugenio has it in for you, when he is simply sharing his own impressions based on actual conversations he has had with actual witnesses.

It's not about you.

Take care.

Jim, I'm afraid you're being a hypocrite. While you criticize those who won't read Haslam, or won't give Judyth a fair shake, due to the fact her story conflicts with what they've come to know, you have never read the mountains of information and analysis I have put online for FREE because it conflicts with what you think you "know."

If you had read what I have written you wouldn't be so high and mighty. So as not to distract from this discussion of Judyth, I am starting another thread in which I will demonstrate an error in Mantik and Horne's work.

[Jack White]

In 2001, Judyth wrote the following reply to David Lifton on an email group. Draw your own conclusions.

Jack

..........

Subject: My boring life, Lifton says, must have needed something, so i

invented 1963.....

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:11 EDT

From: ElectLady63@aol.com

To: [16 addresses redacted]

Stop inventing a story to make your past more interesting than it actually

was.

(aboive line copied from David Lifton's latest newsgroup email about me)

===This is a background about my "boring" life, just for the record. A

little compressed, leaving a lot out, but it would take all night

otherwise.

Odd that David Lifton should say I'm trying to zapp up my

past..........not that i notice much response anymore to what he is

saying.

Still, he knows so little about me He thinks I am trying to generate some

excitement to make up for my appartently boring past. Here are only a few

highlights (I leave out eating at Napoleon's favorite inn in Bordeaux,

translating ancient Egyptian from papyri found on mummies, and making a

telephone call that caused an armed man to be captured who threatened

Reagan's life at an airport, and lots of other stuff that will bore you to

tears...but....for your entertainment: ).

Just beginning in 1966, when helped found the zoo in Austin, Texas, and

Willa Gibbs befriended me, wrote my first novel. This exciting lady had

lived alone in Arabia (later inspiring me to backpack alone across Israel)

and wrote several best-seller books such as the Twelfth Physician, Tell

Your Sons, and Seed of Mischief. She got me interested in God again, and

also got me into anthropology.

At the same time, was marching for peace, writing for underground

newspapers, and got arrested by the FBI in a raid for writing subversive

material, against the vietnam war, but we were all let go (my family knows

about this from day One).....marched and supported Cesar Chavez sometime

in the next few years, too....one of my anti-war friends was shot and

thrown into a freezer. It was Texas, after all.

Spent the summer of 1967 in Saltillo, Mexico, where painted the mountains

and wrote the novel 6 Foot 7 (about Hemming and Lee and betrayal and all

that, but that's a no-no to bring up, sorry...)( it was therapy.) Had

wonderful adventures there, enough to write a book (might sometime)

In 1968 had a baby. Ended up having five babies, being a newspaper

reporter, getting a degree in anthropology, getting my back reconstructed

and learning to walk again, living in interesting places, excavating

archeological and fossil sites, entering into secret (now banned) blood

rites in Mormon temples, working on the skull of Wanda (a pliocene whale)

at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa before hundreds of

onlookers, and of course living in Norway, where was also a newspaper

reporter.

in 1969, had joined the Mormon Church along with husband to start my life

over. Rose through Mormon ranks and met most of its leaders--very hard to

do---and got inside the machinery of that religion, being a state and

regional official in different areas of function, including publicity and

achiving historian. What i wrote became the final version of the church's

history of its members and its official activities in a wide section of

Texas. Can i recount historical events accurately? Mormon Apostles, Stake

Presidents and Bishops thought so.

Had hundreds of friends, maybe a thousand friends. Now think of it as

penetrating to the very heart of LDS secrets as a Temple Mormon, who later

exposed Mormonism's controlling patriarchy,narrow-mindedness and fakery to

the world here and overseas: I proved the falsehood of certain documents,

at the same time receiving death threats--and people were bombed and

killed at this same time in Utah over such documents.

In between, served on Bicentennial Commission in Stafford, Texas, and

designed the city's bicentennial memorial garden there for that event.

Also got my name on the monument there, for civic service, as an honest

newspaper reporter: That's how was appointed to the Commission in the

first place.

My kids were voted most popular, played with state champion-to-be football

team, and were valedictorians, their blushing single mother so thrilled.

I served in Bradenton as tutor, counselor to women, a state-trained child

abuse investigator, and made some rescues of children that could be made

into a movie, including a shotgun shoved against my chest, etc. .

Previously, I'd rescued, and caused to be rescued, dozens of starving

pregnant mares and got new laws passed in state of Texas against animal

abuse...and founded FBC

Humane Society.

Got mafia bordellos raided, making them very mad at me, about the same

time......and on the side, interviewed Don Hull, former FBI, at now-Sugar

land airport, where Dave Ferrie had a plane waiting to try to get special

somebodies to Laredo, in November 1963, but oh, i am not to mentiuon that,

either....sorry...

Interviewed the Sugar Land state prison's head warden, too, who was slain

shortly afterward by a rebellion only days later. Had interviewed some of

the prisoners who murdered him.

Uncovered mafia headquarters in Houston region and my son was there

with me. owned my own art studio and designed cards for Neiman-Marcus,

Sakowitz, Foley's and Houston Heritage Society. Sold art prints that went

worldwide, and created artwork for ARCO and other big oil companies.

Wrote roadshows for teenagers to perform in and directed teen roadshows in

Texas area. Wrote music for roadshows. Was manager of two political

campaigns, one won (County Commissioner) , the other (State

Representative) came in second in field of eight.. Since then got a

master's at UCF, created a new dog breed, ----and reopened the old wounds

of my past.

Have painted portraits of racehorses for millionaires and advised surgeons

in New York hospitals how to stop abdoiminal adhesions from forming. made

mice get cancer from cigarettes in record time and received national

attention and support for those efforts. Was kidnapped while trying to

become a nun, by my own Catholic parents. They took my roommate's clothes

by mistake in their haste--size DD bras, etc. She, i suppose, had to make

do with mine.......

Traveled to so many places I've lost track. Just like Lee, ironically, I

lectured men of the cloth --but they were monks in California---and just

like Lee-- again ironically--- had to learn Russian. Met so many people

from so many cultures. Even designed Norwegian sweaters for a factory in

Stavanger, found a viking ship site there, and a Norwegian stone ship

grave.

In Oslo in 1986 I attended Elie Weisel's (sp?) Nobel peace prize

ceremonies, for the newspaper The Saga. So many wonderful people there!

When i asked for excommunication from the LDS church, eighteen friends

accompanied me as witnesses: only the truth could be written down at the

church high council's court.

And there was a dramatic flight a year after, from Norway, that Josiah

could tell you about, as Mormons tried to stop me from leaving Robert. The

control he had over me was enormous, and all the protestant friends who

had been with me through the excommunication thronged the airport there,

to make sure the Mormons --there were at least fifteen or twenty of them

there--- couldn't stop me from boarding the plane. They tried.. Josiah

will tell you it was one group pressing against the other. But I got on

the shuttle to London, the Mormons running to buy tickets so they could

stop me in London. No more room on that shuttle, so I went into the air,

leaving them all behind. They vowed to come after me as i waited for my

flight to New York, but a storm arose, and the next shuttles were

canceled.

I Made my way with Jim and Sarah to Florida. And finally got two more of

the five children. Robert very bitter, sued us five or six times, but at

least was free. My Mormon family had done such things as buried my contact

lenses and destroyed my clothing so i could not go to a different (they

saw it as evil and radical) church. It was really rough at the time, the

control that was over me by Robert. I have sent some of you his "I am your

lord and master" "revelation" from God. There were many such edicts from

the Lord to the Servant.

He had been directing every little detail, as you know, down to writing

letters to me listing every single thing I could spend, and how, and what

i could or could not do. . I rebounded into fundamental christian

churches, and became sought as a speaker on radio and television and

elsewhere against Mormonism. All under fake names, because of my past,

culminating in 1963.

I've invented a new process for getting magnesium out of seawater, created

new uses for organic limolenes that take the place of phosphate-based

cleaning compounds, and wrote a three act play with original music with a

co-author, that was presented to celebrate the sesquicentennial of the

Mormon Church. Helped write lessons to improve the spiritual, cultural

and emotional levels of women in the church. Helped design LDS social

services publicity events, and LDS commercials and convention/fair booths.

Also broke up a witch's coven and uncovered its head warlock. Sent police

and a Mormon bishop to rescue, I am not kidding, a crippled virgin from

their midst, Judy Devries, who was going to be burned alive in a telephone

booth. . My family will verify this, too. Happened on Hazard St. near the

Diablo Club in Houston.

I'd like to finish excavating the Stelly Mound complex here---(older than

Poverty Point) and would be possibly the oldest in Americas, if we can get

it radiocarbon dated again. Had the excavation begun three years ago and

need to return to it.

I want to ride horses, breed those American Cream dogs, go back to Norway

and Egypt and do more archeology, work in cancer research again, and of

course, i love teaching drama and poetry at university here, as well as

English composition.

To end this long email, have attached a sample of writing one of my

students expects me to read. Every single word is numbered--she didn't

want to write one syllable past her 500 words! I don't think anybody would

believe me if i tried to describe this writing, so you just look and judge

for yourself this great challenge before me of interpreting it!

I have wonderful friends. One only 39, a petroleum engineer who has been

so much more than a friend. IHave always felt loved by many dear people,

but also have chronic pain--and chronic other pains, such as Mr. Lifton.

Could have taken the matters of 1963 to my grave. But made the commitment

after being pinned to the wall, so to speak, by Martin, and there i stand.

get a life, Lifton advises.

if he only knew.

-j-

[Jack White]

Judyth claimed:

Just beginning in 1966, when helped found the zoo in Austin, Texas,

The Austin Zoo website says it was founded in 1994.

Jack

[Dean Hagerman]

In 2001, Judyth wrote the following reply to David Lifton on an email group. Draw your own conclusions.

Jack

..........

Subject: My boring life, Lifton says, must have needed something, so i

invented 1963.....

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:11 EDT

From: ElectLady63@aol.com

To: [16 addresses redacted]

Stop inventing a story to make your past more interesting than it actually

was.

(aboive line copied from David Lifton's latest newsgroup email about me)

===This is a background about my "boring" life, just for the record. A

little compressed, leaving a lot out, but it would take all night

otherwise.

Odd that David Lifton should say I'm trying to zapp up my

past..........not that i notice much response anymore to what he is

saying.

Still, he knows so little about me He thinks I am trying to generate some

excitement to make up for my appartently boring past. Here are only a few

highlights (I leave out eating at Napoleon's favorite inn in Bordeaux,

translating ancient Egyptian from papyri found on mummies, and making a

telephone call that caused an armed man to be captured who threatened

Reagan's life at an airport, and lots of other stuff that will bore you to

tears...but....for your entertainment: ).

Just beginning in 1966, when helped found the zoo in Austin, Texas, and

Willa Gibbs befriended me, wrote my first novel. This exciting lady had

lived alone in Arabia (later inspiring me to backpack alone across Israel)

and wrote several best-seller books such as the Twelfth Physician, Tell

Your Sons, and Seed of Mischief. She got me interested in God again, and

also got me into anthropology.

At the same time, was marching for peace, writing for underground

newspapers, and got arrested by the FBI in a raid for writing subversive

material, against the vietnam war, but we were all let go (my family knows

about this from day One).....marched and supported Cesar Chavez sometime

in the next few years, too....one of my anti-war friends was shot and

thrown into a freezer. It was Texas, after all.

Spent the summer of 1967 in Saltillo, Mexico, where painted the mountains

and wrote the novel 6 Foot 7 (about Hemming and Lee and betrayal and all

that, but that's a no-no to bring up, sorry...)( it was therapy.) Had

wonderful adventures there, enough to write a book (might sometime)

In 1968 had a baby. Ended up having five babies, being a newspaper

reporter, getting a degree in anthropology, getting my back reconstructed

and learning to walk again, living in interesting places, excavating

archeological and fossil sites, entering into secret (now banned) blood

rites in Mormon temples, working on the skull of Wanda (a pliocene whale)

at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa before hundreds of

onlookers, and of course living in Norway, where was also a newspaper

reporter.

in 1969, had joined the Mormon Church along with husband to start my life

over. Rose through Mormon ranks and met most of its leaders--very hard to

do---and got inside the machinery of that religion, being a state and

regional official in different areas of function, including publicity and

achiving historian. What i wrote became the final version of the church's

history of its members and its official activities in a wide section of

Texas. Can i recount historical events accurately? Mormon Apostles, Stake

Presidents and Bishops thought so.

Had hundreds of friends, maybe a thousand friends. Now think of it as

penetrating to the very heart of LDS secrets as a Temple Mormon, who later

exposed Mormonism's controlling patriarchy,narrow-mindedness and fakery to

the world here and overseas: I proved the falsehood of certain documents,

at the same time receiving death threats--and people were bombed and

killed at this same time in Utah over such documents.

In between, served on Bicentennial Commission in Stafford, Texas, and

designed the city's bicentennial memorial garden there for that event.

Also got my name on the monument there, for civic service, as an honest

newspaper reporter: That's how was appointed to the Commission in the

first place.

My kids were voted most popular, played with state champion-to-be football

team, and were valedictorians, their blushing single mother so thrilled.

I served in Bradenton as tutor, counselor to women, a state-trained child

abuse investigator, and made some rescues of children that could be made

into a movie, including a shotgun shoved against my chest, etc. .

Previously, I'd rescued, and caused to be rescued, dozens of starving

pregnant mares and got new laws passed in state of Texas against animal

abuse...and founded FBC

Humane Society.

Got mafia bordellos raided, making them very mad at me, about the same

time......and on the side, interviewed Don Hull, former FBI, at now-Sugar

land airport, where Dave Ferrie had a plane waiting to try to get special

somebodies to Laredo, in November 1963, but oh, i am not to mentiuon that,

either....sorry...

Interviewed the Sugar Land state prison's head warden, too, who was slain

shortly afterward by a rebellion only days later. Had interviewed some of

the prisoners who murdered him.

Uncovered mafia headquarters in Houston region and my son was there

with me. owned my own art studio and designed cards for Neiman-Marcus,

Sakowitz, Foley's and Houston Heritage Society. Sold art prints that went

worldwide, and created artwork for ARCO and other big oil companies.

Wrote roadshows for teenagers to perform in and directed teen roadshows in

Texas area. Wrote music for roadshows. Was manager of two political

campaigns, one won (County Commissioner) , the other (State

Representative) came in second in field of eight.. Since then got a

master's at UCF, created a new dog breed, ----and reopened the old wounds

of my past.

Have painted portraits of racehorses for millionaires and advised surgeons

in New York hospitals how to stop abdoiminal adhesions from forming. made

mice get cancer from cigarettes in record time and received national

attention and support for those efforts. Was kidnapped while trying to

become a nun, by my own Catholic parents. They took my roommate's clothes

by mistake in their haste--size DD bras, etc. She, i suppose, had to make

do with mine.......

Traveled to so many places I've lost track. Just like Lee, ironically, I

lectured men of the cloth --but they were monks in California---and just

like Lee-- again ironically--- had to learn Russian. Met so many people

from so many cultures. Even designed Norwegian sweaters for a factory in

Stavanger, found a viking ship site there, and a Norwegian stone ship

grave.

In Oslo in 1986 I attended Elie Weisel's (sp?) Nobel peace prize

ceremonies, for the newspaper The Saga. So many wonderful people there!

When i asked for excommunication from the LDS church, eighteen friends

accompanied me as witnesses: only the truth could be written down at the

church high council's court.

And there was a dramatic flight a year after, from Norway, that Josiah

could tell you about, as Mormons tried to stop me from leaving Robert. The

control he had over me was enormous, and all the protestant friends who

had been with me through the excommunication thronged the airport there,

to make sure the Mormons --there were at least fifteen or twenty of them

there--- couldn't stop me from boarding the plane. They tried.. Josiah

will tell you it was one group pressing against the other. But I got on

the shuttle to London, the Mormons running to buy tickets so they could

stop me in London. No more room on that shuttle, so I went into the air,

leaving them all behind. They vowed to come after me as i waited for my

flight to New York, but a storm arose, and the next shuttles were

canceled.

I Made my way with Jim and Sarah to Florida. And finally got two more of

the five children. Robert very bitter, sued us five or six times, but at

least was free. My Mormon family had done such things as buried my contact

lenses and destroyed my clothing so i could not go to a different (they

saw it as evil and radical) church. It was really rough at the time, the

control that was over me by Robert. I have sent some of you his "I am your

lord and master" "revelation" from God. There were many such edicts from

the Lord to the Servant.

He had been directing every little detail, as you know, down to writing

letters to me listing every single thing I could spend, and how, and what

i could or could not do. . I rebounded into fundamental christian

churches, and became sought as a speaker on radio and television and

elsewhere against Mormonism. All under fake names, because of my past,

culminating in 1963.

I've invented a new process for getting magnesium out of seawater, created

new uses for organic limolenes that take the place of phosphate-based

cleaning compounds, and wrote a three act play with original music with a

co-author, that was presented to celebrate the sesquicentennial of the

Mormon Church. Helped write lessons to improve the spiritual, cultural

and emotional levels of women in the church. Helped design LDS social

services publicity events, and LDS commercials and convention/fair booths.

Also broke up a witch's coven and uncovered its head warlock. Sent police

and a Mormon bishop to rescue, I am not kidding, a crippled virgin from

their midst, Judy Devries, who was going to be burned alive in a telephone

booth. . My family will verify this, too. Happened on Hazard St. near the

Diablo Club in Houston.

I'd like to finish excavating the Stelly Mound complex here---(older than

Poverty Point) and would be possibly the oldest in Americas, if we can get

it radiocarbon dated again. Had the excavation begun three years ago and

need to return to it.

I want to ride horses, breed those American Cream dogs, go back to Norway

and Egypt and do more archeology, work in cancer research again, and of

course, i love teaching drama and poetry at university here, as well as

English composition.

To end this long email, have attached a sample of writing one of my

students expects me to read. Every single word is numbered--she didn't

want to write one syllable past her 500 words! I don't think anybody would

believe me if i tried to describe this writing, so you just look and judge

for yourself this great challenge before me of interpreting it!

I have wonderful friends. One only 39, a petroleum engineer who has been

so much more than a friend. IHave always felt loved by many dear people,

but also have chronic pain--and chronic other pains, such as Mr. Lifton.

Could have taken the matters of 1963 to my grave. But made the commitment

after being pinned to the wall, so to speak, by Martin, and there i stand.

get a life, Lifton advises.

if he only knew.

-j-

I read that email a long time ago and I laugh harder now then I did back then

[Glenn Viklund]

Jack,

You've really geared up these past couple of days, Thanks for an interesting read, hehehe - it's beyond comment, really.

And I miss the part where she's assisting in the de-programming of former mormon church members, as she told Swedish authorities. But perhaps that took place after all this occured, who knows?

GV

[Jack White]

Jack,

You've really geared up these past couple of days, Thanks for an interesting read, hehehe - it's beyond comment, really.

And I miss the part where she's assisting in the de-programming of former mormon church members, as she told Swedish authorities. But perhaps that took place after all this occured, who knows?

GV

For some reason a dozen or so forum members look to me as their leader (not so), and email me stuff

that I might find of interest, but which they do not want to post. I pass along things which I find interesting.

I do not vouch for their veracity.

Jack

[Glenn Viklund]

This interview gives a somewhat different picture:

http://tv.daltid.se/dtplay.php?cs=daltid.c...37&ch=00019

It is an interview that JVB did with a local Swedish station in the fall of 2007. This is also the interview that I notified about on the mod forum in December of 2008, and all hell broke loose.

The narrative is in Swedish, but Judyth speaks English.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Glenn Viklund

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM SIGNS OFF FOR (WHAT HE HOPES WILL BE) THE LAST TIME

The situation here has gone far beyond ridiculous into the stratospheric

realm of the absurd. I featured Judyth Vary Baker last night on "The

Real Deal" and, so far as I can discern, exactly one active member of

this thread tuned in--Dean Hartwell--who explained to me that there had

been a glitch and that the second two 25-minute segments of the show

had not been broadcast. So I am rebroadcasting the show this Friday,

5-7 PM/CT, on revereradio.net. But I could care less if you listen to it.

The Guardian had it right: I am up against psychological dispositions.

I am continuing to report to the public the discoveries that I have made

though my contacts and associations with Judyth, which, I can assure

you, will be ongoing. Among the projects we have in mind is taking a

close look at HARVEY & LEE, which I am convinced came about because

Jack and John did not realize that the CIA had created a false history of

Lee Harvey Oswald so he could return to a normal life. In order for them

to have established the existence of "two Oswalds", they would have had

to establish the existence of three: "Harvey", his false history, and "Lee".

Let me also add that Judyth spent the past week in the company of two

of my closest associates, Declan and Lola Heavey. Lola, who maintains

my blog at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com, is a social psychologist and

spent every waking minute of her visit in the company of Judyth. She

and Declan are tough as nails, having spent 2 1/2 years sleeping on the

streets of London. They maintain a web site for an organization that they

created, NAC, at http://religionandmorality.net, which I support. I believe

in them and in their intelligence and dedication to their projects, including

a petition to the UN on theraputic cloning signed by many Nobel laureates.

Lola has said, "By the way I will give my two arms that she is a genuine

witness. You can quote me in the forum, and say she has spent more than

six days with me and Declan and we have found her a 100% credible, reliable

and genuine. She never contradicted her story, answered all of my questions

and more, and was very patient. We watched "JFK" with her and anybody in

the room with us would have been under no doubt whatsoever that she was

there, she worked with Ferrie and considered him a friend, and had a very

loving relationship with Lee." Of course, this will have no impact upon those

who are attacking Judyth on the forum. But it carries real weight with me.

To be sure that Lola and Declan had drawn similar conclusions, I spoke with

them both this morning. They related many fascinating aspects about being

around her, including her lack of orientation in coping with the world around

her. Both of them have followed the evolution of this thread, and Declan told

me that he is also convinced that she is genuine and added that, "Jack White is

100% wrong!" Once again, of course, it will be water off a duck's back for one

like Jack, who has known that she was a "fantasist" from scratch. Both Declan

and Lola insist that that is untrue and that her knowledge of Lee Oswald, David

Ferrie, Mary Sherman and events in New Orleans comes from having lived it.

It will come as no surprise that I am more convinced about Judyth than I was

in the beginning. It was my belief that I could provide the platform for a fair

shake on this forum, but today my confidence in logic and evidence has been

severely tested. While I am not inclined to do more with this thread, I would

be willing to consider inquiries that are sent to me personally. I have noticed

that Pat Speer has created a new thread, "The fragment behind the eye, For

Jim Fetzer", which might even become as popular as this one. As one of the

leading critics has observed, "If Judyth is the question, then Judyth cannot be

part of the answer", so you don't need me for a thread attacking me, either.

Those of us who have come to know her the best believe in her the strongest.

I stand with Nigel Turner, Edward Haslam, Howard Platzman, Wim Dunkbaar,

Jim Marrs, Dean Hartwell, Pamela McElwain-Brown, and others who believe in

her. Based upon my past experience, there is nothing more I could ever say

that would change the minds of those who reject her, whose interest in hearing

more has become abundantly clear. Nevertheless, I extend my thanks to the

contributors to this thread, pro or con. And I am glad to end with a message

to Karl Kinaski from Judyth, which, like this thread, is incomplete. If I read

it correctly, those few final words Judyth intended to add fit here: "Good luck!"

Edited May 4, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Barb Junkkarinen]

I read that email a long time ago and I laugh harder now then I did back then

Hi Dean ... yeah, "My Boring Life" is a classic. So is a rundown of more recent years that she sent to her Manatee

HS classmate site in July '07 .... and Martin Shackelford posted it on the newsgroup in Dec '08:

To: < ManateeHurric...@att.net >

Subject: update from Judyth Vary Baker

Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:49 PM

Dear MaryJo, hope you get this! remove any old stuff you wish that is on

your opinion not so important, to make room for this new info...many

thanks!)

This comes from Athens, Greece, I've recently been living in Hungary, The

Netherlands, Greece, Austria, painting, writing, Returned briefly to the US

2005-2007 teaching Apache Indians in Arizona (White Mountain reservation)

for a year, then went on to teach Navajo in New Mexico. Marvelous

experiences, but I get too many threats and problems from weirdos.

Overseas, I am well treated. Currently working with an archeology team on

two excavations in Greece -- a government project. Hope everybody gets

Edward Haslam's new book, DR. MARY'S MONKEY, available on Amazon.com, with

two chapters about my life, clearly stating the truth about me, cancer

research, Lee Oswald, and the JFK assassination. Wikipedia finally made a

somewhat more accurate bio of me, but it's still full of errors. Finally

enough people are getting the whole picture, despite efforts to cover up

the truth. The banned documentary THE LOVE AFFAIR can be seen on YOUTUBE.

My witnesses speak out on Dr. mary's monkey webvsite and on

JFKMURDERSOLVED.COM. Further, Watergate's Hunt confessed on his deathbed

concerning JFK's planned murder by important power figures. My five

children are all doing well --I have seven grandchildren! Always glad to

hear from classmates. Buddy Grace, Mastin, hope you write! I will always

take time to write classmates! Sincerely, Judyth

Pretty much a quick hello .... and a commercial for Haslam's book. She was so busy,

one has to wonder when she had time to write!

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

As near as I can determine, a marriage license in Mobile, Alabama can be

obtained only between 8 a.m. and 4:45 p.m. by adults OVER 18 WITH

VALID PHOTO ID. Persons UNDER 18 must have parental consent. Mobile

has a THREE-DAY WAITING PERIOD FOR NON-RESIDENTS BEFORE A WEDDING

CAN BE PERFORMED. Below are current requirements. They may have been

different in 1963.

ID Requirement in Alabama:

You will need valid Driver's License or Birth Certificate if you are over 18. All applicants must also provide a Social Security number.

Residency Requirement:

You do not have to be a resident of Alabama. However, some counties, like Mobile, require nonresidents to wait three days before being able to have a wedding ceremony performed.

An elopement to Mobile would appear to be more than an overnight affair.

Jack

[Barb Junkkarinen]

As near as I can determine, a marriage license in Mobile, Alabama can be

obtained only between 8 a.m. and 4:45 p.m. by adults OVER 18 WITH

VALID PHOTO ID. Persons UNDER 18 must have parental consent. Mobile

has a THREE-DAY WAITING PERIOD FOR NON-RESIDENTS BEFORE A WEDDING

CAN BE PERFORMED. Below are current requirements. They may have been

different in 1963.

ID Requirement in Alabama:

You will need valid Driver's License or Birth Certificate if you are over 18. All applicants must also provide a Social Security number.

Residency Requirement:

You do not have to be a resident of Alabama. However, some counties, like Mobile, require nonresidents to wait three days before being able to have a wedding ceremony performed.

An elopement to Mobile would appear to be more than an overnight affair.

Jack

At that time, Jack, many states required a blood test as well ... and Judyth mentions they needed to get a blood test in her book. The test was a VDRL which is a test for syphilis ... the test had to be ordered as a "pre-marital" so that a signed certificate would be issued with the (hopefully!) negative results. Couples then took their health certificates to the courthouse to get their marriage license. No official signed health certificates, no marriage license.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Dean Hagerman]

She and Declan are tough as nails, having spent 2 1/2 years sleeping on the streets of London.

So now you have homeless bums backing Judyth up? LMFAO

Why in the world would anybody think sleeping on the streets of London is something to brag about?

Jim I cant believe you are using homeless people to back Judyth up

Do you really expect anybody to care about what two bums think about Judyth or the assassination?

I cant believe it, I am so disappointed