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Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile


Guest James H. Fetzer
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How many abusive, repetitive, infantile, petty, self-absorbed, belittling, and repetitive posts does someone like Glenn Viklund have to make before the moderator notices and harnesses him in?

I dunno ... how many are you up to now? :-) There are more than a couple here who have been wondering the same thing for weeks. But not about Glenn Viklund.

How about if we all concentrate on discussing claims and evidence issues rather than running commentary in post after post on the ability, integrity, intelligence and intentions of other posters?

Just a thought.

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How many abusive, repetitive, infantile, petty, self-absorbed, belittling, and repetitive posts does someone like Glenn Viklund have to make before the moderator notices and harnesses him in?

I dunno ... how many are you up to now? :-) There are more than a couple here who have been wondering the same thing for weeks. But not about Glenn Viklund.

How about if we all concentrate on discussing claims and evidence issues rather than running commentary in post after post on the ability, integrity, intelligence and intentions of other posters?

Just a thought.

:rolleyes:

Agreed.

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Fetzer:

"How many abusive, repetitive, infantile, petty, self-absorbed, belittling, and repetitive posts does someone like Glenn Viklund have to make before the moderator notices and harnesses him in? Believe it or not, I was going to compliment Evan for his role here when I noticed that he had taken no measures to put an end to this string of abuses. That he has done something about it now is a welcome development. Apart from this solitary lapse, I think that, on the whole, he has been doing a good job here."

This is one of the rules:

"(iv) Members should not make personal attacks on other members. Nor should references be made to their abilities as researchers. Most importantly, the motivations of the poster should not be questioned. At all times members should concentrate on what is being said, rather than who is saying it. It is up to the reader to look at the biography submitted by the poster, to judge whether they are telling the truth or not. The word "xxxx" is banned from use on the forum."

How many times in this thread have you, Mr Fetzer, violated this rule? 50? 100? You have questioned the motivation of basically every single individual who does not agree with you. As for me, you have done this repeatedly. You have even questioned the ID of several participants of this thread. You have had no hesitation in labelling me as a spy, government agent, insider and a whole lot more. Furthermore, you have also belittled me and others with a whole range of derogatory phrases. All of this in violation with rule 4, above.

It's about time you quit this little victim act of yours, it is ridiculous. You have broken the rules of this forum infinitely more than anyone else in this thread.

As Barb points out this is obvious. Jim's uncontrollable projection of all his flaws onto others has been going on for years. Why it's tolerated to the degree it is and Glenn singled out for relatively tame words is really quite amazing.

_______

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Edited by John Dolva
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Kathy,

How many abusive, repetitive, infantile, petty, self-absorbed, belittling, and repetitive posts does someone like Glenn Viklund have to make before the moderator notices and harnesses him in? Believe it or not, I was going to compliment Evan for his role here when I noticed that he had taken no measures to put an end to this string of abuses. That he has done something about it now is a welcome development. Apart from this solitary lapse, I think that, on the whole, he has been doing a good job here. :rolleyes:

Jim

Evan,

Frankly, I had wondered what had become of you. This guy must have put up at least twenty (20) of these petty, juvenile, self-absorbed, belittling, repetitive and harassing posts. I would appreciate it if you would work backwards from his latest infantile assault and consider whether he has or has not so massively violated forum rules that he deserves the boot. I believe that he does. I also think it's obvious.

Jim

Glenn,

I have had to remove bad language from your post, and your tone is bordering on insulting / attacking a member. Please carefully consider your choice of words.

Also, although not active, Judyth is a member here and therefore the provisions of rule (iv) apply.

Thank you.

Prof. Fetzer, I have to apologize to you. I misunderstood what I was reading and have deleted the post regarding Evan Burton.

Kathy C

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Lee, with the latest from Junkkarinen, Viklund, and Dolva, I rest my case. We are far beyond the point of diminishing returns.

Lee, this must be the third time I've tried to close it down. But there are a lot who want to take a final whack. I think that's the deal.
This thread has lost it's way again...

...as Clara Peller would say "Where's the beef?"

It's turned into, as we say this side of the pond, a fight between men with handbags at ten paces.

Shall we get back to the debate?

Regardless of the JVB story, do most of us on here believe that there was something dodgy going on concerning medical experiments in NOLA with Ochsner, Sherman, Ferrie, Kloepfer, Draper and the like? Are most people just disagreeing that JVB was part of this, that she has inserted herself into the story through the gaps and cracks or that the whole series of events either a. didn't happen or b. had no connection to the assassination story?

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Jim, you were far beyond anything before you even started. It's tragi comical that you are incapable of recognising it.

What comic book did you clip your creds from?

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Guest James H. Fetzer

PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO JACK WHITE ABOUT JUDYTH VARY BAKER

Jack White has made the assertion that the the idea that Judyth Vary was so important as a witness to the JFK Assassination to have long term psyops brought against her for so many years does not makes sense, because if she was that important the the cia would have terminated her.

Jack is a world renown expert on photo and video analysis and there are not many other individuals in the world that can match his skill level in analyzing photos and videos. His research work and conclusions about the fake videos and photos of the "moon landings" and the "z film" are notably rock solid and he should be highly commended for this superior work that has stood the test of time.

But like most folks, especially those not involved in intel work or who do not have good contacts with those inside intel, as far as "extra-judicial murders" go, he knows very little on the subject as to why they occur, by whom and how they are justified and in what situations they are chosen as the "with prejudice" i.e. "final option" for sanction.

Here's some general background in response to Jack's assertion. Government sanctioned murders have always occurred at times and this has been true within the USA too. This can involve secret coups de etat where top political leaders are terminated such as presidents Lincoln and JFK. It can also include the murder of other top political figures and public figures such as Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Sen. John Tower, Malcolm X, Sen. Paul Wellstone, Gov. Carnahan, etc. It has been estimated that worldwide up to about one-half of all airline crashes are instigated in order to get from one to several individuals on that targeted flight. Thus this business of state sanction murder is a very nasty, cruel and inhuman business. It is the epitome of existential thinking and the leo straussian edict that "the ends justify the means", which is the mainstream of almost every intel agency in the world and almost every military organization. This is the inhuman, evil and disgusting ideology of the likes of lenin, hitler, stalin and mao and it has become the central ideology of our 37 intel agencies, which in and of itself should be very, very alarming to say the least.

Govt sanction murders can also include troublesome witnesses to many government scandals such as Danny Cassalaro of inslaw fame, Ian Spiro and his whole family, the DC Madam Palfry, and many, many more over the years including numerous important witnesses to the JFK Assassination. In recent times since WW2 with the advent of our "national security state" after the roswell crash and the national security act of 1947, there has usually been what is called a "signed finding" to authorize these murders, and the justification is to preserve the national security of the USA. It was rumored that JFK's murder was authorized by such a finding signed by LBJ as vice president in collusion with the jcs and j. edgar mary after it was determined that JFK was a national security risk because of his alleged drug use with mary meyer, his going soft on cuba, his conciliatory discussions with Khrushchev and his intentions to disband the cia and withdraw from vietnam.

These state sanction murders have been carried out in many ways by many groups. There have been quite a few sanctioned murders by state authorities and various federal agencies acting rogue on behalf of certain politicians and large corporate entities, some of whom have been privatized as agents of national security. And over the years since Vietnam, up to 50% of all intel functions have been privatized to shadow govt subcontractors, which makes their work even more deniable.

A former chitown police officer once told me that back in the 60's when certain high political figures wanted a "job" done they would make a phone call to a certain individual at the "treasury dept" would would see that the job was completed and then payment or favors would be made later on.

J. edgar mary had his own private group of hitmen, most mob related. It was called the "squad" and was written about in a book by Michael Milan, titled The Squad. Milan's book is very well done and unfortunately very accurate. At the end of WW2 the US military used several special squads to kill certain japanese war criminals and certain nazi war criminals that survived and escaped capture. This is well documented in several good sources.

The cia has always had special murder squads such as op40 out of room 40 langely modeled after England's room 40 in WW2 and so do many of our at least 37 intel agencies. This group op40 included cubans and one doesn't have to dig too deep to find out their actual names. Nixon and others were heavily involved in running this group. Op40 was of course alleged to have been deeply involved in the JFK Assassination. Operation Pegasus was a deep black special op force which also did many deep black covert ops and later on did special "jobs" after it was hijacked by those that murdered JFK. It typically operated by the authority of signed presidential findings and was responsible for taking drastic measures to protect the national security when no other options were available or had failed. This group supposedly answered directly to potus alone. Typically a presidential letter signed by potus was given to each op saying that if in the process of fulfilling their assignment they broke some laws, immunity was hereby granted under national security. After JFK's death Pegasus was allegedly hijacked by the same sinister forces that murdered him and was allegedly used for protection of illegal govt drug and weapon trafficking.

When state sanctioned jobs are done, the local police are typically contacted by the proper higher authority and instructed to stand down, which they always do. When a designated special high surveillance team which has typically spent at least several days stalking the target to appraise easiest access and means, then it will institute the op. The specific means can be selected from a broad range of tasks involving high tech poisons, pulsed beam microwaves, or actual physical attack. Any physical attack can be made to look as a suicide or a death from natural causes as in the case of william colby. In some cases where it is considered important, a target can be induced to write a suicide letter after certain convincing arguments are presented such as if you don't cooperate we will go after your kids, spouse, relatives, etc. And drug injections, beatings or torture may be used to soften a target up. Some attacks are intended to be savage and grotesque as a warning to others not to talk. One famous case involving this kind of action was the alleged "suicide" of Gary Webb, who supposedly shot himself in the face twice with a shotgun. Absurd circumstances like agriculture inspector marshall's alleged suicide where he was shot five times with a bolt action rifle is another example of a job designed to get the intended "no talk" message across. The klintons of mena, arkansas drug fame were notorious for being surrounded by many absurd and grotesque dixie mob murders like this framed by local authorities as suicide including the "boys on the track" and vince foster.

After the JFK Assassination, the dixie mob and the cubans were allegedly responsible for some of the most savage killings which were to be used to make an example to frighten the others to keep quiet about what they knew. The cia has done a lot of the killings but often uses assets that are deniable. Some however have been trained at the farm, and these usually kill in foreign lands not inside the USA. But the other intel agencies have done their share and a whole other subject is the foreign intel agencies which are sometimes allowed to do their jobs with a wink and a nod by authorities who many times provide cover.

Since 9/11 and the patriot act, these state ordered killings are no longer declared as extra-judicial within intel, the military and the govt. They are now considered to be legal under "national emergency status" which our country is supposedly in at least that is what various recent so called attorney generals and govt lawyers have declared. And this fits well with the govt's novel position that torture of "enemy combatants" even if they are women and young children is okay even if it means crushing as young child's testicles as one top govt just-us dept attorney declared.

Most US govt assassinations nowadays are character assassinations done in the major mass media. It is usually not necessary to resort to murder, however if the need arises after other venues have been exhausted you can be sure that US intel will respond accordingly.

Now how does this background relate to Judyth Vary? After the JFK Assassination, she was quiet and was not considered a threat because it was assumed that she was too afraid to talk. But she has likely been closely monitored for many years. The usual strategy is to "retain" some important witnesses in a "freeze dried" state for later activation. This will seem very strange to the uninformed, but here is how it actually works. To freeze dry an important witness, the agency makes sure that they are mildly harassed and kept down in a weakened conflicted state, usually making certain that they are somehow induced to appear discredited, kooky or marginalized from family, friends and mainstream society in general.

Then at a later time they will may be activated and brought out of their "freeze dried" state to be allowed and/or empowered deliver their payload of evidence should that be desired as it often is at a certain specified time depending on intel's overall goals. A target can be freeze dried over a long period of time by utilizing govt agencies such as the IRS, city real estate taxing authorities, local police, arranged neighbors, employers, other govt agencies, and corporate interests to keep the target stalked, surveilled and harassed and thereby maintained in an ongoing weakened state until such time of conversion back to a real PERSON again. Note "PERSON" is a legal concept you can research in Black's legal dictionary and it has a special legal meaning.

Could this be what is now occurring with Judyth Vary? Is she being taken out of a previously induced freeze dried state and is this being done on purpose by a certain intel faction? And why in the world would a certain faction of intel actually want an important witness that was suppressed for many years to come forth with important evidence proving government complicity in the JFK Assassination, its cover up and other serious associated crimes, some of which appear to be ongoing and even more prominent now? Is here an intel faction that want the citizens to realize their govt is a rogue criminal and wants the citizens to lose all respect for it? Could this be a means to motivate the public to support the formation of a new world govt perhaps?

Not all factions or members of intel are evil. There are some good guys, actually quite a few, and they fight the system (i.e. beast or monster) as best they can. Sometimes they use this freeze dried with later activation process to attain their own goals such as exposure of evidence to help push an agency or the govt to a less evil status. They may unleash the activation part of the process and send it off on a tangent they think is healthy for the society and one that will help slay the beast while allowing the re-emergence of Constitutional govt again (typically this is called a rear guard restoration action).

All govts of the world lie continually and do much evil while also delivering intermittent good overall such as social order. In order for any current govt to be able to rule over the evil of man that govt must be able and willing to be more vicious and savage than any entity that challenges them, otherwise they won't survive as a self governing entity. And topically they must feed off of their subordinates they rule over in order to have enough power to function as a beast. And be clear about it the US govt was usurped from the people by special interest groups and offshore int'l banking conglomerates many years ago, entities who have trashed the US Constitution. Unless the citizens of the US take back their country it cannot once again function as a Republic the way it was designed to by our Founding Fathers. The problem is that with the US victory in WW2 and the 1947 formation of the national security state, the credo "national security" has allowed the shadow govt to become a wealth and liberty consuming out of control beast-monster, invoking national security as a false cover for the most criminal acts acts imaginable, the trashing of the US Constitution and the formation of a nazified police state which is becoming so powerful that it is almost impossible for the common man to take back his country.

Here is the answer to Jack White's assertion and it involves "contrarian" thinking that is very difficult for the uninformed to understand or comprehend in its fullest meaning. One of the most important principals of intel is the "controlled leak", that is, leaking of the truth exposing govt corruption at the time of intel's choice. Now, it is feasible and understandable that a controlled leak of the Judyth Vary history and evidence when instituted at the appropriate time and manner could achieve certain desired intel goals. It could allow the public to believe the truth that the govt killed JFK and covered it up, that Oswald actually was a patsy, and that there was a top secret bioweapon research in New Orleans involving Ochsner, and that the govt was responsible for allowing simian SV-40 virus contaminants to remain in the polio vaccine and other vaccines. The public would then be allowed to BELIEVE that, but not allowed to KNOW that for sure, since the major mass media will never report is as an established scientific fact but only as conspiracy their or conjecture, unless a certain "critical mass" is reached and certain intel factions give it a wink and a nod and allows it to become a mainstream media talking point.

Strange as this seems, this fits well with the over policy and goals of intel which is to generate massive cognitive dissonance wherein the public feels and believes that the govt did all these bad things, but can never know it for sure. This is part of their "king's new clothes" policy. In order to climb the corp/govt/defense food chain, one must acknowledge the king's new clothes even though deep down inside they fear the truth which could transform them overnight to a "man without a country" and an "outsider". One must comply or they cannot climb the food chain and will be ostracized from normal society. Thus we have a nation where most of mainstream society is living in a state of generalized denial. This freezes the citizens up from getting involved in their govt to any meaningful Constitutional extant and usually causes them to go away silently in "quiet desperation".

So, it is certainly possible and plausible that Judyth Vary was "freeze dried" and is now being activated in order for her story and history to be used for certain Intel purposes. However, when this is done, other associated intel factions may have their own agenda and may attempt to take her story from Believing to KNOWING, that is from belief to fact by creating enough critical mass in certain "friendly major mass media" to force that transition for the overall betterment of society.

So to respond to Jack White's assertion, there was no need for intel to murder Judyth Vary after the assassination because she wasn't talking and posed no threat at that time and because she was probably put into a "freeze dried" state and kept there to be used later on. Now she is apparently being taken out of that state and coming into her own and speaking out and writing about her history and what she knows first hand from the early 1960's and the time around the JFK Assassination. Could there be a certain good intel faction that has hijacked her status and is allowing her story to be used to actually help society change for the good? It may be more likely than you think possible.

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Guest James H. Fetzer

PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO JACK WHITE ABOUT JUDYTH VARY BAKER

Jack White has made the assertion that the the idea that Judyth Vary was so important as a witness to the JFK Assassination to have long term psyops brought against her for so many years does not makes sense, because if she was that important the the cia would have terminated her.

Jack is a world renown expert on photo and video analysis and there are not many other individuals in the world that can match his skill level in analyzing photos and videos. His research work and conclusions about the fake videos and photos of the "moon landings" and the "z film" are notably rock solid and he should be highly commended for this superior work that has stood the test of time.

But like most folks, especially those not involved in intel work or who do not have good contacts with those inside intel, as far as "extra-judicial murders" go, he knows very little on the subject as to why they occur, by whom and how they are justified and in what situations they are chosen as the "with prejudice" i.e. "final option" for sanction.

Here's some general background in response to Jack's assertion. Government sanctioned murders have always occurred at times and this has been true within the USA too. This can involve secret coups de etat where top political leaders are terminated such as presidents Lincoln and JFK. It can also include the murder of other top political figures and public figures such as Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Sen. John Tower, Malcolm X, Sen. Paul Wellstone, Gov. Carnahan, etc. It has been estimated that worldwide up to about one-half of all airline crashes are instigated in order to get from one to several individuals on that targeted flight. Thus this business of state sanction murder is a very nasty, cruel and inhuman business. It is the epitome of existential thinking and the leo straussian edict that "the ends justify the means", which is the mainstream of almost every intel agency in the world and almost every military organization. This is the inhuman, evil and disgusting ideology of the likes of lenin, hitler, stalin and mao and it has become the central ideology of our 37 intel agencies, which in and of itself should be very, very alarming to say the least.

Govt sanction murders can also include troublesome witnesses to many government scandals such as Danny Cassalaro of inslaw fame, Ian Spiro and his whole family, the DC Madam Palfry, and many, many more over the years including numerous important witnesses to the JFK Assassination. In recent times since WW2 with the advent of our "national security state" after the roswell crash and the national security act of 1947, there has usually been what is called a "signed finding" to authorize these murders, and the justification is to preserve the national security of the USA. It was rumored that JFK's murder was authorized by such a finding signed by LBJ as vice president in collusion with the jcs and j. edgar mary after it was determined that JFK was a national security risk because of his alleged drug use with mary meyer, his going soft on cuba, his conciliatory discussions with Khrushchev and his intentions to disband the cia and withdraw from vietnam.

These state sanction murders have been carried out in many ways by many groups. There have been quite a few sanctioned murders by state authorities and various federal agencies acting rogue on behalf of certain politicians and large corporate entities, some of whom have been privatized as agents of national security. And over the years since Vietnam, up to 50% of all intel functions have been privatized to shadow govt subcontractors, which makes their work even more deniable.

A former chitown police officer once told me that back in the 60's when certain high political figures wanted a "job" done they would make a phone call to a certain individual at the "treasury dept" would would see that the job was completed and then payment or favors would be made later on.

J. edgar mary had his own private group of hitmen, most mob related. It was called the "squad" and was written about in a book by Michael Milan, titled The Squad. Milan's book is very well done and unfortunately very accurate. At the end of WW2 the US military used several special squads to kill certain japanese war criminals and certain nazi war criminals that survived and escaped capture. This is well documented in several good sources.

The cia has always had special murder squads such as op40 out of room 40 langely modelled after England's room 40 in WW2 and so do many of our at least 37 intel agencies. This group op40 included cubans and one doesn't have to dig too deep to find out their actual names. Nixon and others were heavily involved in running this group. Op40 was of course alleged to have been deeply involved in the JFK Assassination. Operation Pegasus was a deep black special op force which also did many deep black covert ops and later on did special "jobs" after it was hijacked by those that murdered JFK. It typically operated by the authority of signed presidential findings and was responsible for taking drastic measures to protect the national security when no other options were available or had failed. This group supposedly answered directly to potus alone. Typically a presidential letter signed by potus was given to each op saying that if in the process of fulfilling their assignment they broke some laws, immunity was hereby granted under national security. After JFK's death Pegasus was allegedly hijacked by the same sinister forces that murdered him and was allegedly used for protection of illegal govt drug and weapon trafficking.

When state sanctioned jobs are done, the local police are typically contacted by the proper higher authority and instructed to stand down, which they always do. When a designated special high surveillance team which has typically spent at least several days stalking the target to appraise easiest access and means, then it will institute the op. The specific means can be selected from a broad range of tasks involving high tech poisons, pulsed beam microwaves, or actual physical attack. Any physical attack can be made to look as a suicide or a death from natural causes as in the case of william colby. In some cases where it is considered important, a target can be induced to write a suicide letter after certain convincing arguments are presented such as if you don't cooperate we will go after your kids, spouse, relatives, etc. And drug injections, beatings or torture may be used to soften a target up. Some attacks are intended to be savage and grotesque as a warning to others not to talk. One famous case involving this kind of action was the alleged "suicide" of Gary Webb, who supposedly shot himself in the face twice with a shotgun. Absurd circumstances like agriculture inspector marshall's alleged suicide where he was shot five times with a bolt action rifle is another example of a job designed to get the intended "no talk" message across. The klintons of mena, arkansas drug fame were notorious for being surrounded by many absurd and grotesque dixie mob murders like this framed by local authorities as suicide including the "boys on the track" and vince foster.

After the JFK Assassination, the dixie mob and the cubans were allegedly responsible for some of the most savage killings which were to be used to make an example to frighten the others to keep quiet about what they knew. The cia has done a lot of the killings but often uses assets that are deniable. Some however have been trained at the farm, and these usually kill in foreign lands not inside the USA. But the other intel agencies have done their share and a whole other subject is the foreign intel agencies which are sometimes allowed to do their jobs with a wink and a nod by authorities who many times provide cover.

Since 9/11 and the patriot act, these state ordered killings are no longer declared as extra-judicial within intel, the military and the govt. They are now considered to be legal under "national emergency status" which our country is supposedly in at least that is what various recent so called attorney generals and govt lawyers have declared. And this fits well with the govt's novel position that torture of "enemy combatants" even if they are women and young children is okay even if it means crushing a young child's testicles as one top govt just-us dept attorney declared.

Most US govt assassinations nowadays are character assassinations done in the major mass media. It is usually not necessary to resort to murder; however, if the need arises after other venues have been exhausted you can be sure that US intel will respond accordingly.

Now how does this background relate to Judyth Vary? After the JFK Assassination, she was quiet and was not considered a threat because it was assumed that she was too afraid to talk. But she has likely been closely monitored for many years. The usual strategy is to "retain" some important witnesses in a "freeze dried" state for later activation. This will seem very strange to the uninformed, but here is how it actually works. To freeze dry an important witness, the agency makes sure that they are mildly harassed and kept down in a weakened conflicted state, usually making certain that they are somehow induced to appear discredited, kooky or marginalized from family, friends and mainstream society in general.

Then at a later time they will may be activated and brought out of their "freeze dried" state to be allowed and/or empowered deliver their payload of evidence should that be desired as it often is at a certain specified time depending on intel's overall goals. A target can be freeze dried over a long period of time by utilizing govt agencies such as the IRS, city real estate taxing authorities, local police, arranged neighbors, employers, other govt agencies, and corporate interests to keep the target stalked, surveilled and harassed and thereby maintained in an ongoing weakened state until such time of conversion back to a real PERSON again. Note "PERSON" is a legal concept you can research in Black's legal dictionary and it has a special legal meaning.

Could this be what is now occurring with Judyth Vary? Is she being taken out of a previously induced freeze dried state and is this being done on purpose by a certain intel faction? And why in the world would a certain faction of intel actually want an important witness that was suppressed for many years to come forth with important evidence proving government complicity in the JFK Assassination, its cover up and other serious associated crimes, some of which appear to be ongoing and even more prominent now? Is here an intel faction that want the citizens to realize their govt is a rogue criminal and wants the citizens to lose all respect for it? Could this be a means to motivate the public to support the formation of a new world govt perhaps?

Not all factions or members of intel are evil. There are some good guys, actually quite a few, and they fight the system (i.e. beast or monster) as best they can. Sometimes they use this freeze dried with later activation process to attain their own goals such as exposure of evidence to help push an agency or the govt to a less evil status. They may unleash the activation part of the process and send it off on a tangent they think is healthy for the society and one that will help slay the beast while allowing the re-emergence of Constitutional govt again (typically this is called a rear guard restoration action).

All govts of the world lie continually and do much evil while also delivering intermittent good overall such as social order. In order for any current govt to be able to rule over the evil of man that govt must be able and willing to be more vicious and savage than any entity that challenges them, otherwise they won't survive as a self governing entity. And topically they must feed off of their subordinates they rule over in order to have enough power to function as a beast. And be clear about it the US govt was usurped from the people by special interest groups and offshore int'l banking conglomerates many years ago, entities who have trashed the US Constitution. Unless the citizens of the US take back their country it cannot once again function as a Republic the way it was designed to by our Founding Fathers. The problem is that with the US victory in WW2 and the 1947 formation of the national security state, the credo "national security" has allowed the shadow govt to become a wealth and liberty consuming out of control beast-monster, invoking national security as a false cover for the most criminal acts acts imaginable, the trashing of the US Constitution and the formation of a nazified police state which is becoming so powerful that it is almost impossible for the common man to take back his country.

Here is the answer to Jack White's assertion and it involves "contrarian" thinking that is very difficult for the uninformed to understand or comprehend in its fullest meaning. One of the most important principals of intel is the "controlled leak", that is, leaking of the truth exposing govt corruption at the time of intel's choice. Now, it is feasible and understandable that a controlled leak of the Judyth Vary history and evidence when instituted at the appropriate time and manner could achieve certain desired intel goals. It could allow the public to believe the truth that the govt killed JFK and covered it up, that Oswald actually was a patsy, and that there was a top secret bioweapon research in New Orleans involving Ochsner, and that the govt was responsible for allowing simian SV-40 virus contaminants to remain in the polio vaccine and other vaccines. The public would then be allowed to BELIEVE that, but not allowed to KNOW that for sure, since the major mass media will never report is as an established scientific fact but only as conspiracy their or conjecture, unless a certain "critical mass" is reached and certain intel factions give it a wink and a nod and allows it to become a mainstream media talking point.

Strange as this seems, this fits well with the over policy and goals of intel which is to generate massive cognitive dissonance wherein the public feels and believes that the govt did all these bad things, but can never know it for sure. This is part of their "king's new clothes" policy. In order to climb the corp/govt/defense food chain, one must acknowledge the king's new clothes even though deep down inside they fear the truth which could transform them overnight to a "man without a country" and an "outsider". One must comply or they cannot climb the food chain and will be ostracized from normal society. Thus we have a nation where most of mainstream society is living in a state of generalized denial. This freezes the citizens up from getting involved in their govt to any meaningful Constitutional extant and usually causes them to go away silently in "quiet desperation".

So, it is certainly possible and plausible that Judyth Vary was "freeze dried" and is now being activated in order for her story and history to be used for certain Intel purposes. However, when this is done, other associated intel factions may have their own agenda and may attempt to take her story from Believing to KNOWING, that is from belief to fact by creating enough critical mass in certain "friendly major mass media" to force that transition for the overall betterment of society.

So to respond to Jack White's assertion, there was no need for intel to murder Judyth Vary after the assassination because she wasn't talking and posed no threat at that time and because she was probably put into a "freeze dried" state and kept there to be used later on. Now she is apparently being taken out of that state and coming into her own and speaking out and writing about her history and what she knows first hand from the early 1960's and the time around the JFK Assassination. Could there be a certain good intel faction that has hijacked her status and is allowing her story to be used to actually help society change for the good? It may be more likely than you think possible.

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware

of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV

newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans

Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the

assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and

even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about

the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on

the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay

Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE

of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

Jack

This is a great point!

Jim did you miss this? If you did could you please forward it to or make her aware of this post please?

You are on the ball Jack

Jim keeps saying that you should stop because you are discrediting yourself, you are not discrediting yourself in any way in this thread

The only person I see being discredited is Judyth, and Jim is it odd to you that only a small handful of people support Judyth in this thread while a huge number of researchers and students of the case do not believe her in this thread?

Do you wonder why that is?

It is because the affair with LHO NEVER happened

NEVER

If it did happen and Judyth can prove it to me (and I mean really prove it not all this garbage that she has posted for us to take as facts) then I will never post on any JFK forums for the rest of my life

That is a promise from me to you Jim

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Guest James H. Fetzer

JIM REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN ABOUT TRUTH AND JUDYTH VARY BAKER

Judyth eventually sees all the posts on this thread. She has been traveling and will

catch up in the next few days. Your suggestion--that most who are posting do not

seem to believe Judyth--does not mean her story is not true. Indeed, there is much

evidence that supports her, including research by Nigel Turner, Ed Haslam, the crew

at "60 Minutes", Howard Platzman, Dean Hartwell, and many others. As Dean aptly

explained some time back, I have been extremely frustrated to expend so much time

and effort to bring you Judyth's story only to discover that most of those posting on

this forum are not reading or studying the evidence, including DR. MARY'S MONKEY.

Even Jack White, whom I regard as an old and dear friend, has made post after post

based on simple ignorance: of where Ferrie lived, of the location of his apartment as

opposed to the "Little Lab", of the location of the linear particle accelerator, of nature

of the wounds incurred by Mary Sherman, of the lab animals that were being use for

cancer research, and much, much more. Frankly, I expected more from at least some

of those who have posted here, including Jack but also including you. Like many of the

rest of those who have been most critical of Judyth, you seem to derive satisfaction as

the member of a group, where many of you appear to derive a sense of satisfaction in

belittling the evidence, attacking Judyth, and taking whacks at me, over and over again.

A book about 9/11, STRANGER THAN FICTION, which was the subject of my program

tonight, describes this as "the lemming phenomenon", which strikes me a correct. As

the social phenomenon of standing with the group in conformity with the most popular

views, the lemming phenomenon disregards that popularity does not determine truth.

No one who knows me would be surprised that I have no taken this lying down. There

is too much evidence on Judyth's side to be so casually dismissive. Even you, Dean,

have been looking for an easy out. In spite of my repeated entreaties, my impression

is that you have yet to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY, even though you profess to be some-

one who admires my work. Words are cheap, Dean, and until you show me that you

have a better grasp of the evidence than Jack, for example, I can no longer respect you.

I should explain that his has nothing to do with whether or not you ultimately believe in

Judyth. That is a conclusion that each of us had to determine for themselves. My point

is that, unless you have considered the evidence that I have identified, over and over

again, including my blogs about Judyth, the YouTube interviews I have conducted, my

program with Ed Haslam, which has long been posted on my radio program's archives

and on my blogs at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com, you don't have the right to have

an opinion about Judyth--at least, not one that qualifies as "rational". I spent all those

years teaching students how to think things through, and I am acutely disappointed so

many who have made posts couldn't have passed a freshman course in critical thinking.

You have opinions, but without reviewing the evidence, they can't qualify as good ones.

It pains me to be forced to be critical of old friends like Jack and strong supporters like

you, Dean, but, as I explained to Bernice, among others, if friendships takes precedence

over truth, then there is no truth, only friendships. Reread what Dean Hartwell has done

such an excellent job of explaining. Judyth will have the chance to address these issues

just as she has others. But I have found Jack to be a reliable anti-authority on questions

related to Judyth. If he were right about this one, it would be the first time. So, based on

past experience, I wouldn't get my hopes up. And if you even expect to make a serious

contribution to assassination research, you are going to have to do better at research. In

my opinion, like so many others on this thread, you think you can know which side is up

by listening to others. You may have friends, but you appear to be far removed from truth.

Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware

of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV

newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans

Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the

assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and

even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about

the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on

the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay

Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE

of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

Jack

This is a great point!

Jim did you miss this? If you did could you please forward it to or make her aware of this post please?

You are on the ball Jack

Jim keeps saying that you should stop because you are discrediting yourself, you are not discrediting yourself in any way in this thread

The only person I see being discredited is Judyth, and Jim is it odd to you that only a small handful of people support Judyth in this thread while a huge number of researchers and students of the case do not believe her in this thread?

Do you wonder why that is?

It is because the affair with LHO NEVER happened

NEVER

If it did happen and Judyth can prove it to me (and I mean really prove it not all this garbage that she has posted for us to take as facts) then I will never post on any JFK forums for the rest of my life

That is a promise from me to you Jim

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Dean,

What a bold bet. I would think that if Fetzer is as sure of his "witness" as he claims, the least he could do is go all in with you and toss in the same wager. I for one could sure say I would not miss him much.

Mike

In my opinion, it's a dumb bet. (No offense intended, Dean). It is counter-productive for sincere researchers to disqualify themselves on a "bet" over any single issue.

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Guest James H. Fetzer

ED HASLAM RESPONDS TO ME ABOUT STEPHEN ROY

Jim,

I am familiar with Stephen Roy (aka Blackburst) and have spoken to him

by telephone in the past. He knows all there is to know about one side of

David Ferrie's life. The problem is that he thinks that the side he knows

about is the only side... which it is not, in my estimation. And he does

not even believe that Ferrie had any mice! The little of his commentary that

I read over the years indicates to me that he mis-read or mis-interpreted

what I had to say. Frankly, I don't know if he is capable of learning

anything new, and I don't care what he says (or said) about DR. MARY'S

MONKEY. He is basically a self-appointed fringe pundit, and I am not

interested in doing a point-by-point debate with him to raise his stature.

I consider him part of the Layton Martens dis-information crowd. Whether he

is intentionally dis-informing, or whether he is simply mis-guided, matters

not to me. I prefer to ignore him, and ask that you help me to that end.

If ignored, I think he will fade into the background, where he belongs.

Thanks,

Ed Haslam

You appear to be consistent in your methodology. In an earlier post, #1499, I called you for dissembling about this very point. There it was your position, "You mention the possibility of a medical lab in an apartment across the street. In this discussion, I am considering only Mr. Haslam's claim that Ferrie had such a lab in his apartment." I pointed this out again in post #1709. Why don't you just say, "I am only going to talk about claims where I can convey the impression that Ed Haslam was wrong"? Your chicanery is blatant and violates the most elementary standards of research and scholarship. You were, after all, making this claim in a post in 2010, even though you knew he had a new book out. You obviously feigned that it did not even exist because it's contents would have exposed the shameful deception involved in your attempt to smear him. (I have invited Ed Haslam to add his comments to this thread, which I will be glad to post.)

At that time, I was discussing the "underground laboratory" in Ferrie's apartment. Once I read the new book (at YOUR suggestion) and noted that he had changed focus to the other apartment (partly at MY suggestion, because I found evidence to the contrary through real research), I discussed that. Oh, I guess "critical thinking" doesn't adequately prepare one to see such a simple distinction. It sounds SO much better when one avoids elementary standards of research to make it sound >gasp< sinister!

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Dean,

What a bold bet. I would think that if Fetzer is as sure of his "witness" as he claims, the least he could do is go all in with you and toss in the same wager. I for one could sure say I would not miss him much.

Mike

In my opinion, it's a dumb bet. (No offense intended, Dean). It is counter-productive for sincere researchers to disqualify themselves on a "bet" over any single issue.

Greg,

How right you are!

Mike

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Hi Greg,

I don't know where you got the idea I have ever conceded that Judyth knew Oswald. I have not. [snip]

My mistake. I was under the impression that you believed they had, at least, met each other. Do you believe that? Or do you think it's unlikely? During your research did you find out how many people were employed at Reily's in 1963 during that period of time? If it's 800 employees, then perhaps they missed each other. But, if it's only 8 or so--that's a lot harder to miss. IMO, the probability is extremely high that they knew each other. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, I didn't mean to.

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