Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

In post #1795, I was talking about a transfer of the cancer research for a bio-weapon to Ft, Dietrick, not AIDS.

This is a nice example of the kind of collaborative effort that can benefit the research community. Good work!

I find it interesting that you quote Haslam as saying " a comment by his mother that Sherman worked with Ferrie".

Of course this goes back to Haslam's FATHER BEING EMPLOYED BY OSCHNER. Dr. Ed Haslam worked at the Oschner

Clinic. Is this information relevant to (author) Ed Haslam's investigation? Is he trying to discover whether his father

played some role in the creation of the AIDS virus? Or is his motive something else?

It is not out of the realm of possibility that "trivializing" the AIDS virus as being created by some amateurs in

New Orleans is an orchestrated effort to deflect attention AWAY FROM THE BIOWARFARE GOONS AT FORT DETRICK.

Jack

Jack,

Colonel Prouty was beyond being "absolutely convinced" that HIV/AIDS was the product of Fort Detrick. He treated that subject (as he treated every subject with which he was in a position to know) with the "quiet demeanor" afforded those who are certain. Why would he be so certain? He was there.

At one point, Fletch was given a desk within the Pentagon, specifically in the Unconventional Warfare Division of the USAF Directorate of Plans. This was in the same immediate section as the CIA's Lt. Colonel James Monroe. Prouty said: "His [Monroe's] activities covered this area of bio-warfare and the support of CIA activities in that area. During this time I became well aware of those activities and Fort Detrick was mentioned frequently. During my own work with the CIA, I attended many meetings in which such activity was the subject, and the function of Fort Detrick was a common discussion."

The year was 1955--which pre-dates NOLA 1963. Judyth was what, 11 years old at the time?

Rather than me transcribe everything here, suffice to say, Fletch made similar comments many times to me privately, but also is on record with them. The above comment was referring specifically to the 1969 Hearing Records of the testimony of Doctor Donald MacArthur at the House of Representatives Subcommittee on Department of Defense Appropriations. MacArthur was mking a case for $10 million dollars to be funded to create a "new infective micro-organism". Prouty said that within those hearing records we "find what most certainly may be considered as the locus of the origin of AIDS."

I encourage anyone further interested in the origin of HIV/AIDS and/or other bio-weapon development at Fort Detrick to obtain a copy of the House of Representatives Congressional Record of July 1st 1969 Page 18077, where Doctor Martin Dworkin, PhD--a Professor of Microbiology at the Medical School of the University of Minnesota testifies. Very compelling, indeed.

I would sooner believe that the Zapruder film was altered, not at the Hawkeye Plant in Rochester, but by Judyth, Ferrie, Oschner and Sherman in a "home film studio" than I would believe that the development of HIV/AIDS was even being attempted in a home made laboratory! Film alteration is at least a somewhat "linear system" with which to contend. By comparison, micro-biology is non-linear, extremely complex [read:chaotic], and therefore unpredictable. It would really take some doing...even at Fort Detrick!

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

This seems to me to reflect a misunderstanding of Judyth. Perhaps in the past she was naive

about other's telling her story, but that is most certainly not the case today. I have done some

light editing in correcting typos, removing bolds and such, and doing some formatting to make it

easier to read her posts. But she has been very insistent that they be right as she intends them.

I would be surprised if much more was taking place in preparing her book for publication. But I

would not be surprised if she had more material she wanted than could reasonably be included.

Jim

JIM REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN ABOUT TRUTH AND JUDYTH VARY BAKER

....I have been extremely frustrated to expend so much time

and effort to bring you Judyth's story only to discover that most of those posting on

this forum are not reading or studying the evidence, including DR. MARY'S MONKEY.

....In spite of my repeated entreaties, my impressionis that you have yet to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY,

even though you profess to be someone who admires my work. Words are cheap, Dean, and until you

show me that you have a better grasp of the evidence than Jack, for example, I can no longer respect you.

My point is that, unless you have considered the evidence that I have identified, over and over

again, including my blogs about Judyth, the YouTube interviews I have conducted, my

program with Ed Haslam, which has long been posted on my radio program's archives

and on my blogs at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com, you don't have the right to have

an opinion about Judyth--at least, not one that qualifies as "rational". I spent all those

years teaching students how to think things through, and I am acutely disappointed so

many who have made posts couldn't have passed a freshman course in critical thinking.

You have opinions, but without reviewing the evidence, they can't qualify as good ones.

Jim, the scant evidence that appears in Dr Mary's Monkey supporting Judyth Baker's claim that she had

a relationship with Lee Oswald has more than been covered in this thread. You have even reproduced the

two chapters where Haslam deals with this issue. Yet you continue to contend that members need to read

his book in order to have a right to their opinions.

But you haven't read Armstrong's book and that hasn't prevented you from expressing your strong opinions about the

quality of his research and the quality of his conclusions. Seemingly, you base your opinions on nothing much more

than an index and a missing tooth. If you are going to apply the same standards of critical thinking to yourself as you did

to your students and members of this Forum, shouldn't it be incumbent on you to read Harvey & Lee in it's entirety

before attempting to discredit Armstrong as you have done?

Weeks ago I posed several questions to you about Ed Haslam's research. At first you ignored them. I posted them again

to no avail. At the time you were responding to almost anyone and everyone, yet you would not address my questions.

Frustrated, I posed just one question in hope that you would give me your take. You then asked me to repeat the rest of the

questions because you did not want to go to Haslam with one question at a time. I rephrased the questions and presented them to you.

I noticed that you had Ed Haslam respond to Stephen Roy's posts in a very short period of time, yet my questions still have gone unanswered.

I am going to repeat just one of them here. I am really more interested in your explanation than Ed Haslam's at this point in time.

He has alread publicly evinced a reluctance to discuss JVB/LHO until her new book comes out.

Judyth Baker has claimed that she did not tell Haslam about her first book being unauthorized and containing errors, but she would

have done so if she had known Haslam was writing a book. Haslam's book came to her as a great surprise.

However, in Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam presents a chapter entitled Judyth's Story. He writes: "Judyth has been kind enough

to corroborate (and correct) my version of her account." It defies logic to think that Haslam would get her to do this without telling her

it was for a book he was writing.

Jim, do you find it odd that Ed Haslam would not tell Judyth Baker that he was writing a book (where she would play a

prominent role as his "witness"), particularly in light of the fact that he had her make corrections to and corroborations of

his chapter that dealt with her story?

Excellent, Michael. Interesting item is that I have it on good authority that Haslam is ghost-writing the "new Judyth book"...if

it ever comes out.

Jack

[Greg Burnham]

In post #1795, I was talking about a transfer of the cancer research for a bio-weapon to Ft, Dietrick, not AIDS.

This is a nice example of the kind of collaborative effort that can benefit the research community. Good work!

Thanks Jim. However, all bio-weapons, AIDS related or not (including cancer), are based on COMPLEX (non-linear) systems. This is not easily accomplished--indeed it is not easily ATTEMPTED credibly--even at a MAJOR facility sponsored by the US Government and administered by the US Intelligence/National Security Apparatus! Let alone at a "home laboratory" --

This claim seems, to me, to be over the top.

Now, I will grant this as a possibility: David Ferrie was stone cold NUTS! One crazy a** lunatic! Just look at him! And Judyth was about 19--as HEMMING commented to me about her: "Monk, did you know sh*t from shinola at 19? Well, she's a broad--that thought she was in love on top of that! ..."

So, maybe Ferrie was convinced in his own mind that he was working on this cancer weapon stuff--and maybe he convinced others to help him. But--the evidence is REALLY, REALLY thin--if not ridiculous, IMHO.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Kathleen Collins]

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Castro was a communist dictator. He was our enemy and he was physicaly close to us. The people of Cuba live in fear. Look what little Elian Gonzalez went through. I'm sure he's working on a farm now, when he could have been free in America.

I am convinced Castro is dead -- and for a long time now. Popping him off in 1963 may have relieved the Cuban people. Instead the guns turned around and took Kennedy out.

Would you like to live in Cuba under Castro? I'd rather see him dead.

Kathy C

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks Jim. However, all bio-weapons, AIDS related or not (including cancer), are based on COMPLEX (non-linear) systems. This is not easily accomplished--indeed it is not easily ATTEMPTED credibly--even at a MAJOR facility sponsored by the US Government and administered by the US Intelligence/National Security Apparatus! Let alone at a "home laboratory" --

This claim seems, to me, to be over the top.

Now, I will grant this as a possibility: David Ferrie was stone cold NUTS! One crazy a** lunatic! Just look at him! And Judyth was about 19--as HEMMING commented to me about her: "Monk, did you know sh*t from shinola at 19? Well, she's a broad--that thought she was in love on top of that! ..."

So, maybe Ferrie was convinced in his own mind that he was working on this cancer weapon stuff--and maybe he convinced others to help him. But--the evidence is REALLY, REALLY thin--if not ridiculous, IMHO.

Greg-

does this mean you don't accept judyth's claims concerning her work with ferrie at his apartment? do you accept any of her claims? just curious, kevin

[Greg Burnham]

Greg-

does this mean you don't accept judyth's claims concerning her work with ferrie at his apartment? do you accept any of her claims? just curious, kevin

Hi Kevin,

Well, for me, the proverbial "jury" is still out. As an example, it would be fallacious for me to conclude that ALL of her claims regarding research with Ferrie are false--if based only on my rejection of this single claim. Moreover, refusing to accept ANY of her claims (even those beyond Ferrie) if such refusal is based solely on rejection of this one claim, would also be fallacious.

I don't reject all of her claims. I simply don't know yet. I haven't checked them all out. I don't fault Jim for not having had the opportunity to provide irrefutable evidence of each and every one of her claims either. Let's face it, due to quantity alone, such a task could take hundreds of years, millions of dollars, and thousands of lives! Just kidding, but there certainly is a lot of ground to cover.

I will say this: She did NOT strike me as one who was a fabricator AT ALL when I met and "grilled" her myself 10 years ago.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Kathleen Collins]

Except, of course, if the participants, such as Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Judyth Vary,

had been told that the subject (who was a prisoner) had "volunteered" for an experiment by

the authority providing the experimental subject, such as Alton Ochsner, then none of those

who actually administered the vaccine would be guilty of anything remotely approximating

murder, in which case our former prosecutor's analysis does not apply.

Hi Jack,

I have a law degree though I do not have a license to practice law. Here is my opinion:

Murder requires a number of elements, all of which must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

It requires the homicide rule that one life must be taken by another. [COMMENT: Here, you apparently believe it to be a person's injection or part of a plan to inject the prisoner]

It requires that there be no valid excuse, justification or accident for the taking.

It requires that the person taking the life have "malice aforethought" or the intent to kill [COMMENT: Intent may be shown by words or by conduct - Where is the evidence of conduct calculated to take a life?]

Can you prove all of this beyond a reasonable doubt? There may be a taking (questionable), but no intent by anyone and instead the strong likelihood of accident. And as for "premeditation," without any proof of murder, there is no need to consider that.

I do not see any prosecutor coming anywhere near the fulfillment of the evidencial requirements.

Dean

JVB admits in participating in a premeditated murder. I am surprised that nobody wants

her brought to justice. Scientific experimentation is no justification for murder.

We have attorneys on the forum. How about a legal opinion?

Jack

If this incident happened as reported, it clearly is a case of MURDER. There is no statute

of limitations on murder. If JVB admits to creating this cancer virus and being a party to

administering it to some poor unfortunate mental patient...IT IS STILL MURDER, PREMEDITATED

MURDER...not a scientific experiment. JVB has CONFESSED to murder and gone unprosecuted.

Am I the only one who finds this extraordinary?

Jack

Dean:

I have both prosecuted and defended murders. If the person was injected with a substance that could foreseeably result in the death of that person then all people who participated in the process leading to the injection and knew that it would be injected into someone would be principals in the crime and intent could be implied and even first degree (premeditated) murder could be found. It would be if you started firing a machine gun into a crowd of people and afterwards saying you didn't mean to kill anyone. Even a reckless act without intent could result in manslaughter, or 2nd degree murder. The question is whether a person believed that such an act could lead to the death of the person. If JVB reasonably believed it could and participated then Jack is right. At the least, her failure to report the incident could make her an accessory after the fact.

Doug Weldon

I believe it was murder if they were planning to inject cancer into someone (a defenseless mental patient). Judyth should have known that the human being being experimented on was getting a concoction of the cancer causing cells she was making. She was, in effect, a murderer. What good exists in injecting that substance into a person? They wanted to see if it worked well enough to kill the patient. And it did.

Kathy C

[Jack White]

Speaking of reading books, Jim...HAVE YOU read the original Judyth

book (the "unauthorized" 2-volume set)? How does it differ from any

new "authorized" material? If I should read books, I assume that you

have done so, since you ARE interested.

Jack

Jack,

This epitomizes the problem, Jack. You have no interest. You won't read

the book. But you continue to offer slashing comments that are adverse

to Judyth when, by your own admission, you have no interest in her and

you won't read the most important book written about her. Can't you see

what's wrong with this picture, Jack?

Jim

I see no problem, Jim. I would read the book if I had it, but do not wish

to buy a book I do not want. I have read the previous book, and am led

to believe that the ONLY new information concerns JVB.

I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THE TALES OF JVB UNLESS THERE IS DOCUMENTATION.

I know all I want to know about her.

So far I have seen no documentation offered by readers of the book, including

you. Mostly Haslam offers opinions and theories, not documentation. However

I did find his theories interesting about the creation of the AIDS virus.

But as a subscriber to the COVERT ACTION INFORMATION BULLETIN before its

demise, I was studying the AIDS virus more than 30 years ago, and the information

presented strongly indicated that the mutated virus was created by the biowarfare

goons at Fort Detrick Maryland as a part of PROJECT GLOBAL 2000, which was

a eugenics campaign by the Pentagon to reduce world population. It was introduced

in Africa to kill off people of color. If you are not familiar with GLOBAL 2000, you

need to read up on it. It was to KILL OFF UNDESIRABLE people (non-white) through

disease (AIDS), small scale limited wars in ethnic countries, famine in poor nations,

and drug addiction. THE PROGRAM IS STILL IN EFFECT. Read up on EUGENICS.

The Bush family and SKULL AND BONES all promote eugenics. So while Haslam

offers some interesting information about AIDS...it is not ACCIDENTAL as he

purports. It is an instrument of global population control at highest levels to rid

the world of undesirables...blacks, homosexuals and arabs.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Castro was a communist dictator. He was our enemy and he was physicaly close to us. The people of Cuba live in fear. Look what little Elian Gonzalez went through. I'm sure he's working on a farm now, when he could have been free in America.

I am convinced Castro is dead -- and for a long time now. Popping him off in 1963 may have relieved the Cuban people. Instead the guns turned around and took Kennedy out.

Would you like to live in Cuba under Castro? I'd rather see him dead.

Kathy C

Complete and utter nonsense

Yeah, quite amazing really. If Castro is dead, how could I live in Cuba ''under'' him? Of course I'd like to spend time there, I'm a socialist like him. He may be frail, but he still writes sharp articles for Granma and participates in various functions. However, whether he is dead or not, the Cuban people have what it takes to live without him, just as they can live without Che'. BTW He's has never been a Communist Dictator. Someone has been telling you fibs. Do you really believe that a tiny country so vulnerable to military and economic sabotage could ever be a threat to the US of A?

It's the IDEA of Independent of US corporate influence, Sovereignty, of a small nation with an alternative to Capitalism that is the threat.

edit:typo

Edited April 27, 2010 by John Dolva

[Kathleen Collins]

You seem to be unable to grant that the other side is right

ABOUT ANYTHING. The "reading list", for example, turned out to be substantiated

by an actual WARREN COMMISSION DOCUMENT. Do you still insist that Judyth was

wrong about that one, too, just as I am still wrong about the history of medicine?

The problem is Judyth is an expert researcher. Couldn't she have read the WC Document and memorized book titles?

Kathy C

[Karl Kinaski]

xxx

Edited January 11, 2012 by Karl Kinaski

[John Dolva]

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Castro was a communist dictator. He was our enemy and he was physicaly close to us. The people of Cuba live in fear. Look what little Elian Gonzalez went through. I'm sure he's working on a farm now, when he could have been free in America.

I am convinced Castro is dead -- and for a long time now. Popping him off in 1963 may have relieved the Cuban people. Instead the guns turned around and took Kennedy out.

Would you like to live in Cuba under Castro? I'd rather see him dead.

Kathy C

Complete and utter nonsense

Yeah, quite amazing really. If Castro is dead, how could I live in Cuba ''under'' him? Of course I'd like to spend time there, I'm a socialist like him. He may be frail, but he still writes sharp articles for Granma and participates in various functions. However, whether he is dead or not, the Cuban people have what it takes to live without him, just as they can live without Che'. BTW He's has never been a Communist Dictator. Someone has been telling you fibs. Do you really believe that a tiny country so vulnerable to military and economic sabotage could ever be a threat to the US of A?

It's the IDEA of Independent of US corporate influence, Sovereignty, of a small nation with an alternative to Capitalism that is the threat.

edit:typo

Quite right John. Castro, once his appearances on The Ed Sullivan Show were over, simply became a massive threat to Manifest Destiny and the Monroe Doctrine. Perhaps Kathy thinks the people of Haiti under Duvalier and since have had it better?

Yes, the Monroe Doctrine is pivotal (and Che''s Our America and Theirs). I don't know where the Monroe Doctrine stands today in US Foreign Policy, but present reality is shredding it throughout South/Latin America and that is why Cuban Sovereignty is such an enemy: the IDEA is dynamite.

edit:typo

Edited April 27, 2010 by John Dolva

[Jonathan Cohen]

>But as a subscriber to the COVERT ACTION INFORMATION BULLETIN before its

demise, I was studying the AIDS virus more than 30 years ago, and the information

presented strongly indicated that the mutated virus was created by the biowarfare

goons at Fort Detrick Maryland as a part of PROJECT GLOBAL 2000, which was

a eugenics campaign by the Pentagon to reduce world population. It was introduced

in Africa to kill off people of color. If you are not familiar with GLOBAL 2000, you

need to read up on it. It was to KILL OFF UNDESIRABLE people (non-white) through

disease (AIDS), small scale limited wars in ethnic countries, famine in poor nations,

and drug addiction. THE PROGRAM IS STILL IN EFFECT. Read up on EUGENICS.

The Bush family and SKULL AND BONES all promote eugenics. So while Haslam

offers some interesting information about AIDS...it is not ACCIDENTAL as he

purports. It is an instrument of global population control at highest levels to rid

the world of undesirables...blacks, homosexuals and arabs.

Jack, seriously? Just when I was thinking how admirable it was for you to be standing up to Fetzer, you drop this little nugget. AIDS as a "weapon" created by the Pentagon??? Isn't that a little far-fetched considering scientists overwhelmingly agree that HIV jumped from primates to humans between 1884 and 1924?

[Pat Speer]

Throughout the history of medicine, subjects have volunteered for experiments where the

outcomes were unknown and could result in death. It is interesting that Alton Ochsner in

fact injected his grandaughter and his grandson with the polio vaccine, which killed the boy

and induced polio into the girl. No one has ever suggested that Ochsner should be brought

up on murder charges. For a smart guy, you seem to be oblivious of the history of medicine.

The controversy has raged over informed consent, not whether the subjects actually survived.

Having just watched "You Don't Know Jack" (about Jack Kervorkian), this subject is fresh in my mind. Injecting something into someone that you think may kill them is murder, and having their consent to do so has nothing to do with it. Kervorkian, after all, had videos of people BEGGING him to kill them.

So, it seems, the real question is not consent, but intent, and the likelihood in Judyth's mind that the prisoner would die.

If she honestly believed he would die when she gave him the shot, she is probably guilty of murder, of some sort.

[Kathleen Collins]

Kathy, how does killing Castro save the US of A?

JVB's claims about foreknowledge and non action is atrocious. The assassination threatened to trigger a nuclear confrontation, and in the years since has led to the deaths and miseries of millions if not billions of the earths population.

Patriotism truly is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Precious soil : Bah!

Castro was a communist dictator. He was our enemy and he was physicaly close to us. The people of Cuba live in fear. Look what little Elian Gonzalez went through. I'm sure he's working on a farm now, when he could have been free in America.

I am convinced Castro is dead -- and for a long time now. Popping him off in 1963 may have relieved the Cuban people. Instead the guns turned around and took Kennedy out.

Would you like to live in Cuba under Castro? I'd rather see him dead.

Kathy C

Sorry Kath. I completely and utterly disagree with 90% of your message. The 10% I do agree with is your name at the bottom.

Edited: anger taken out

Anger over what? Basically, I think we should stay out of other countries' business. But there are exceptions.

About 2 years ago I read 2 books dealing with the Assassination. They said that the Kennedy brothers were going to assassinate Castro on Dec. 1, 1963. I don't know how true that was. Brothers says Bobby Kennedy was working with a group of Cuban Exiles, without his brother knowing, to kill Castro. With Castro dead, maybe the Cubans could have their land back. Castro had nuclear missiles. He was dangerous to this country. Did you feel bad when Saddam Hussein died (even though he didn't have weapons of mass destruction)? Would you like to live with him as a ruler? What about Adolph Hitler? Would you let that continue?

Maybe you ought to go to Anger Management classes.

Kathy C