Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Bill Byas]

There is more than enough evidence to establish

that Judyth was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner

Please share this evidence with us!

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT OFFERS A DIFFERENT TAKE ON STEPHEN ROY

NOTE: Apparently I was not the only one who thought that 20 years of research does not appear to

have produced any publications. I find that extremely odd. Why not? If he has something to say, it

would the obvious thing to do as a form of confirmation of his findings. Here are some reflections by

my psy ops expert on aspects of intel ops that may have escaped his notice but interest the forum.

Jim, let me respond to Steven Roy, self proclaimed expert on David Ferrie. I understand that he hasn't published his research findings. But maybe it is out there. And if he has massive findings of twenty years of research, what good is it if not published and shared?

Of course I know the cia was started after the national security act was passed and was considered an extension of the ivy league and wall street "oh so social" Donovan boys (OSS). But alas where did the name "company" come from?

Is Steven Roy aware that there was a well defined wall street based intel agency that had cooperation with the highest level in the federal govt and military for many years since the late 1800s? Could he seriously think that David Ferrie was a normal person? All his behavior at the time of the JFK Assassination as well as before screams "mind control".

Is Steven Roy familiar with intel various "special little boys program", the "finders", MK Ultra, MK Search, Slammer, etc. and all the other "special child" procurement programs used over many years? Ever heard of Russel Trust, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, Rush River Lodge. This is where many serious ops were planned. It is a known fact that the initial planning for the Manhattan project took place at bohemian grove in the redwood forest of california not too far from San Francisco as did the planning for the Hoover Dam project. Essentially, like it or not almost all intel within the USA has been run by the shadow govt, i.e. private extra-governmental corporate bodies. This is where the control lies and all done under the guise of "national security" so that its acts cannot be easily challenged or even laid bare to the public for scrutiny. The term company is also now used to represent the CIA which is really there to service the wall street bankers and their associated defense contractors and this term reflects the constant practice of the cia setting up proprietary corporations and cutouts from which to make money for black ops and to provides cover for operations.

The OSS evolved from the private intel group associated with Sullivan and Cromwell Law Firm which evolved from the folks who owned and controlled United Fruit Company since the late 1800's. Can you spell "dulles brothers as in Allen and John Foster". This United Fruit Company was a front for a massive intel apparatus at the time which was called "the octopus" and also folks referred to it as "the company" representing the United Fruit Company related intel system (these terms were used interchangeably for that intel system, which later associated with and used wealthy rightwing Texas oilmen, defense realted companies like Brown and Root of LBJ fame, and cuban exiles under castro). Later on this organization apparently went nazi and merged with the Averil Harriman railroad faction who was also nazi based (Union bank trading with the enemy scandal).

Some informed researchers claim that US intel is still run by this same wall street corp. based faction that financed the nazis and the bolsheviks too. This group has demonstrably shifted under apparent complete nazi control since WW2, due the apparent fact that the top nazis won the war and had a very successful escape from Germany to successful exile status under operation paperclip, while the german people lost the war. Does one think it is a coincidence that dodd brought back the nazi gun control laws from Nuremberg and had them translated by the library of congress so that they could be attempted to implemented almost word for word in US law. And where do you think the term "homeland security" came from. As many are aware several respected researchers found a connection between the JFK Assassination and the nazis brought to America after the war under operation paperclip (Mae Brussel hypothesized this).

And some believe that the nazis infiltrated and hijacked US intel in general or at least formed a long term permanent partnership with them (under the guidance of imported nazis Gehlen and Mueller). These same nazis brought with them advanced mind kontrol techniques and Dr. Joseph Mengele the "angel of death" and monster torturer of many death camp twins, who is alleged to have supervised their development and implementation in the USA. One of the methods used was to select and take captive gifted young boys who met special profiles that were vulnerable sexually, and then imprint sexual inversion on them to dirty them up and deviation amplify them. It was believed these folks made the best operatives and wetboys. Was Ferrie one of these special little boys, selected out and "processed" for duty? I would be very, very amazed if it turns out that Ferrie was not a special little boy and was not extensively mind controlled throughout his life by intel. It would certainly explain all his willingness and ability to train young boys like LHO and Barry seal at the civil air patrol under Gen Byrd who also owned the texas school book depository if I remember correctly. Barry Seal turned out to be one of the biggest US govt drug dealers in history. But of course this must also be pure coincidence. Can't be any intel conspiracy here now can there?

MY PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN AND GREG BURNHAM

Have you ever wondered why David Ferrie was selected by the company as an adolescent and later treated to lose all his hair, sort of pushed over the edge into absurdity (i.e. "dirtied up" to create his deviation amplification)? Things were likely done to him to make him angry, sexually confused and dysfunctional and easily discreditable. This smacks of mindkontrol. Can you say intel's "special little child" mind kontrol program?

Gotcha. This is complete and utter horsecrap. It NEVER HAPPENED.

Selected by WHAT company as an adolescent? Between 1918, when he was born, and 1938, when he turned 20? Which company existed during those years?

Treated to lose all his hair? So that Alopecia Areata he was diagnosed with by the Cleveland Clinic in the 1930s was ALL JUST A RUSE? And the reports of the people at the seminary who said his hair was falling out are ALL JUST A RUSE? And those early pictures of him with little bald spots are ALL JUST A RUSE?

Keep going. Tell us more about David Ferrie, from a "psyops perspective."

Stephen,

You're killing me! LOL -- "The Company" is a euphemism for the CIA.

Jeez, Monk- Give me more credit than that! I didn't just fall off the turnip truck!

The "psyops expert" claimed Ferrie was recruited by CIA as an adolescent, which would have been between 1918 and 1938. "The Company" didn't exist then, nor did its predecessor, the OSS. In fact, Ferrie's first contact with the CIA occurred much later.

And he also goofed in claiming that CIA somhow "treated" Ferrie to make him lose his hair. I have medical records, seminary records, letters between Ferrie and his dad and pictures which establish that Ferrie developed Alopecia Areata in the early 1930s, long before "the Company" was formed.

Edited May 4, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Kathleen Collins]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT REFLECTS ON DR. MARY'S MONKEY AND THE JUDYTH BAKER STORY

NOTE: Consider this to be an indulgence at the end of an historic thread. His analysis seems to me to be far closer to the mark

than those coming from other members of this forum. This was written a few days ago and I only just realized I had it in hand.

Those who find his observations of no value are welcome to disregard them. I have valued his opinions for close to 20 years.

And there were certain very powerful individuals in the shadow govt connected to old european black nobility, nazis and the vatican that wanted to protect castro since cuba was essentially a catholic country and castro was a member of the council on foreign relations and was rumored to be under the protection of david rockefeller (ie the involvement of cardinal spellmen). That is why castro was always warned in advance of any assassination attempt against him even before it happened and the complete details of the bay of pigs planned attack too.

Thanks for posting the above paragraph about Spellman.

Kathy C

[Glenn Viklund]

Fetzer:

"Now the probability of making false claims when you are "the real deal" is extremely low, which means that, if most of these claims are FALSE, then the likelihood that she is telling the truth has to be extremely low. "

For probably the first time you are saying something that make sense. And now it should also be crystal clear why you refuse to answer any question of her asylum issue affecting her credibility.

Instead, you continue to break the rules of this forum and throw mud around you. Pathetic.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Glenn Viklund

[David Lifton]

To Pat Speer, and others:

Agreed: the tape of my March 4, 2000 conversation with Judyth is completely unnecessary to evaluate Judyth’s credibility, and grasp the essential absurdity of most of her claims. All of this was debated ad nausea 10 years ago. Prof. Fetzer, perhaps unaware of the extent of this, is recycling the same old/same old.

For example, does Jim Fetzer fully understand the extent to which Judyth is already on record—and in writing—with most of this stuff??

Again, I advise: Just visit Dave Reitzes website—and his section of Judyth.

The link: http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

For convenience, below my typed signature is the section in which he narrates the goofy back and forth of the “Cancun” part of the debate, which surfaced after Robert Chapman pointed out that Cancun did not exist as a resort back then, and Judyth was confronted with this major gaffe. As he narrates the back and forth of her “defense” (and the ebb and flow of this “debate”) each of his sentences carries a footnote, and the footnotes themselves refer back to voluminous documentation he culled –and organized—from the Internet news groups (and then printed below his narrative). So each refer back to specific posts of Judyth herself, Platzman, and Shackelford.

Again and again, Judyth offers explanations and excuses for her Cancun gaffe that are the linguistic and syntactical equivalent of “My dog ate it [i.e., my dog ate the homework]”.

Example 1: Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, October 9, 2004:

QUOTE: "The Cancun matter was an insertion by my literary agent that was missed by Dr.Platzman [sic]. He took the blame for allowing it to remain in the manuscript. But it was my fault, too.. . .

Lee indeed said we would meet in a fine hotel, but his tone of voice was so full of irony I didn't know if he was joking. He never said we would meet in Cancun. Typos and errors will happen. That we would meet in an area NEAR present-day Cancun is what was always meant, and if I typed Cancun instead, God forgive me. . . END QUOTE

DSL note: This is after numerous other posts in which she claimed she never said any such thing (and I was accused of malice, simply because I accurately reported what she told me on the phone, on March 4, 2000).

Example 2 (from Shackelford, on September 27, 2004):

QUOTE : "It has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with the resort being there in 1963--they weren't planning on going to a resort. They were planning to go to the Yucatan and look at the ruins. '' wasn't supposed to refer specifically to the ruins either--just the area." END QUOTE

Example 3—Judyth, newsgroup post, July 5, 2004:

QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE

((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))

Example 4: --Judyth herself, Internet post, October 9, 2004:

QUOTE "Lee never mentioned the name of this city as a meeting place. He spoke of Merida in other contexts. I decided this must have been the 'city' in the Yucatan where we hoped to marry - on my own, as he mentioned we would be flying from the city where we would marry on the Cayman islands. When, later, I learned that flights from Merida to the Cayman Islands were known to occur, I then assumed the city was Merida." UNQUOTE

And Jim Fetzer thinks a tape made in March, 2000, is necessary to see whether Cancun could perhaps have been confused (by me) with Kankun, and that “that” offers an explanation for this farce?

DSL

4/30/10 2:30 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

Copied below from the Reitzes website, the section on Judyth, and specifically, the part of the narrative about her meeting Lee at Cancun. Each of the numbered notes refer to his documentation, which appears beneath the essay, at his website.

NOW QUOTING. . . :

Had Oswald escaped Dallas alive, he and Judyth planned to meet at a fine hotel in Cancun, Mexico, and get married. (It was subsequently pointed out by David Lifton and Robert Chapman that Cancun was an uninhabited jungle in 1963; the resort city was conceived years later.) (96)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton.(97)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton and John McAdams. (98)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by Dave Reitzes. (99)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by co-author Howard Platzman. (100)

No, it wasn't.(101)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by her former agent, Peter Cox.(102)

No, it wasn't.(103)

Well, maybe it was.(104)

Hypothetically speaking. (105)

Okay, Judyth said it after all. (106)

But she didn't mean it. She only meant Cancun as a rough geographical indicator of where the planned meeting-place actually had been. (107)

What she meant was that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in the rustic village of Kankun, Mexico.(108)

Actually, Cancun and the fine hotel had nothing to do with each other; some of the words were accidentally reversed in that particular draft of her manuscript. (109)

Perhaps "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part. (110)

Of course "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part, and Judyth knew that at the time. (111)

Nevertheless, she and Oswald might have ended up staying in a fine hotel just the same. (112)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Chichen Itza, Mexico -- 125 miles from present-day Cancun. (113)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Merida, Mexico -- 200 miles from present-day Cancun. (114)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Belize, Mexico -- 350 miles from present-day Cancun. (Note: There was no Belize in 1963; it was called British Honduras until years later.) (115)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico -- well over a thousand miles from present-day Cancun. (116)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in the Cayman Islands of the Caribbean; Cancun was just a stopover. (117)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in Mexico. Exploration of ancient Mayan ruins and a visit to a large city in the Yucatan were additional possible plans. After marriage, their final destination was probably going to be the Cayman Islands. (118)

END QUOTE

Again, for a detailed exposition of all the footnotes (and much other information on the Judyth story), just go Reitzes website (and again, to this link, for the footnotes):

http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

Edited April 30, 2010 by David Lifton

[Todd W. Vaughan]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN AND GREG BURNHAM

Have you ever wondered why David Ferrie was selected by the company as an adolescent and later treated to lose all his hair, sort of pushed over the edge into absurdity (i.e. "dirtied up" to create his deviation amplification)? Things were likely done to him to make him angry, sexually confused and dysfunctional and easily discreditable. This smacks of mindkontrol. Can you say intel's "special little child" mind kontrol program?

Gotcha. This is complete and utter horsecrap. It NEVER HAPPENED.

Selected by WHAT company as an adolescent? Between 1918, when he was born, and 1938, when he turned 20? Which company existed during those years?

Treated to lose all his hair? So that Alopecia Areata he was diagnosed with by the Cleveland Clinic in the 1930s was ALL JUST A RUSE? And the reports of the people at the seminary who said his hair was falling out are ALL JUST A RUSE? And those early pictures of him with little bald spots are ALL JUST A RUSE?

Keep going. Tell us more about David Ferrie, from a "psyops perspective."

Stephen,

You're killing me! LOL -- "The Company" is a euphemism for the CIA.

Stephen specifically asked "Selected by WHAT company as an adolescent? Between 1918, when he was born, and 1938, when he turned 20? Which company existed during those years?

The CIA wasn't founded until 1947.

Is Stephen still "killing you? Are you still "laughing out loud"?

[Dean Hagerman]

QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE

((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))

Jim

How can you possibly defend this crazy statement that Judyth made?

[Greg Burnham]

Stephen specifically asked "Selected by WHAT company as an adolescent? Between 1918, when he was born, and 1938, when he turned 20? Which company existed during those years?

The CIA wasn't founded until 1947.

Is Stephen still "killing you? Are you still "laughing out loud"?

Yes, in fact, I am! I laugh at myself sometimes--especially when I stick my foot in it.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Judyth and I have discussed this and I don't know why you think you can discredit her on this basis. QUOTE 1 is the basic story: she had told her agent at the time, Peter Cox, that they were going to meet in the Yucatan in the vicinity of Chichen Itz. Lee had not used the name "Cancun", which, as you have observed, did not exist other than in the form of the village of Kankun. She put her finger on a map at his request and he said, "Oh, Cancun!", and ran with it. Since in QUOTE 2 Shackelford said what had happened (how the misunderstanding had arisen), there is certainly no inconsistency there. And QUOTE 3 is one where Judyth is being more specific about what they (she and Lee) had actually discussed, where QUOTE 4 expands on their tentative plans. Mexico is a predominantly Catholic country, of course, so they would expect to be married by a priest. There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth. On the other hand, this appears to me to be a nice example of TRYING TO CREATE A CONFLICT rather than TRYING TO SORT THINGS OUT. I discussed each of the quotes with Judyth and, the more we talked about it, the more it became apparent to me that this arose from violating the condition of translation known as "the principle of charity", where you should (in ordinary conversational contexts) look for interpretations that make what you are being told come out to be true. Instead, you and your allies are looking for an interpretation that makes what you are being to told come out false. But it all hangs together the right way. I have done a YouTube interview with Judyth about this, which I recommend to everyone. This is a great to-do about nothing.

To Pat Speer, and others:

Agreed: the tape of my March 4, 2000 conversation with Judyth is completely unnecessary to evaluate Judyth’s credibility, and grasp the essential absurdity of most of her claims. All of this was debated ad nausea 10 years ago. Prof. Fetzer, perhaps unaware of the extent of this, is recycling the same old/same old.

For example, does Jim Fetzer fully understand the extent to which Judyth is already on record—and in writing—with most of this stuff??

Again, I advise: Just visit Dave Reitzes website—and his section of Judyth.

The link: http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

For convenience, below my typed signature is the section in which he narrates the goofy back and forth of the “Cancun” part of the debate, which surfaced after Robert Chapman pointed out that Cancun did not exist as a resort back then, and Judyth was confronted with this major gaffe. As he narrates the back and forth of her “defense” (and the ebb and flow of this “debate”) each of his sentences carries a footnote, and the footnotes themselves refer back to voluminous documentation he culled –and organized—from the Internet news groups (and then printed below his narrative). So each refer back to specific posts of Judyth herself, Platzman, and Shackelford.

Again and again, Judyth offers explanations and excuses for her Cancun gaffe that are the linguistic and syntactical equivalent of “My dog ate it [i.e., my dog ate the homework]”.

Example 1: Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, October 9, 2004:

QUOTE: "The Cancun matter was an insertion by my literary agent that was missed by Dr.Platzman [sic]. He took the blame for allowing it to remain in the manuscript. But it was my fault, too.. . .

Lee indeed said we would meet in a fine hotel, but his tone of voice was so full of irony I didn't know if he was joking. He never said we would meet in Cancun. Typos and errors will happen. That we would meet in an area NEAR present-day Cancun is what was always meant, and if I typed Cancun instead, God forgive me. . . END QUOTE

DSL note: This is after numerous other posts in which she claimed she never said any such thing (and I was accused of malice, simply because I accurately reported what she told me on the phone, on March 4, 2000).

Example 2 (from Shackelford, on September 27, 2004):

QUOTE : "It has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with the resort being there in 1963--they weren't planning on going to a resort. They were planning to go to the Yucatan and look at the ruins. '' wasn't supposed to refer specifically to the ruins either--just the area." END QUOTE

Example 3—Judyth, newsgroup post, July 5, 2004:

QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE

((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))

Example 4: --Judyth herself, Internet post, October 9, 2004:

QUOTE "Lee never mentioned the name of this city as a meeting place. He spoke of Merida in other contexts. I decided this must have been the 'city' in the Yucatan where we hoped to marry - on my own, as he mentioned we would be flying from the city where we would marry on the Cayman islands. When, later, I learned that flights from Merida to the Cayman Islands were known to occur, I then assumed the city was Merida." UNQUOTE

And Jim Fetzer thinks a tape made in March, 2000, is necessary to see whether Cancun could perhaps have been confused (by me) with Kankun, and that “that” offers an explanation for this farce?

DSL

4/30/10 2:30 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

Copied below from the Reitzes website, the section on Judyth, and specifically, the part of the narrative about her meeting Lee at Cancun. Each of the numbered notes refer to his documentation, which appears beneath the essay, at his website.

NOW QUOTING. . . :

Had Oswald escaped Dallas alive, he and Judyth planned to meet at a fine hotel in Cancun, Mexico, and get married. (It was subsequently pointed out by David Lifton and Robert Chapman that Cancun was an uninhabited jungle in 1963; the resort city was conceived years later.) (96)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton.(97)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton and John McAdams. (98)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by Dave Reitzes. (99)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by co-author Howard Platzman. (100)

No, it wasn't.(101)

Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by her former agent, Peter Cox.(102)

No, it wasn't.(103)

Well, maybe it was.(104)

Hypothetically speaking. (105)

Okay, Judyth said it after all. (106)

But she didn't mean it. She only meant Cancun as a rough geographical indicator of where the planned meeting-place actually had been. (107)

What she meant was that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in the rustic village of Kankun, Mexico.(108)

Actually, Cancun and the fine hotel had nothing to do with each other; some of the words were accidentally reversed in that particular draft of her manuscript. (109)

Perhaps "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part. (110)

Of course "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part, and Judyth knew that at the time. (111)

Nevertheless, she and Oswald might have ended up staying in a fine hotel just the same. (112)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Chichen Itza, Mexico -- 125 miles from present-day Cancun. (113)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Merida, Mexico -- 200 miles from present-day Cancun. (114)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Belize, Mexico -- 350 miles from present-day Cancun. (Note: There was no Belize in 1963; it was called British Honduras until years later.) (115)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico -- well over a thousand miles from present-day Cancun. (116)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in the Cayman Islands of the Caribbean; Cancun was just a stopover. (117)

Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in Mexico. Exploration of ancient Mayan ruins and a visit to a large city in the Yucatan were additional possible plans. After marriage, their final destination was probably going to be the Cayman Islands. (118)

END QUOTE

Again, for a detailed exposition of all the footnotes (and much other information on the Judyth story), just go Reitzes website (and again, to this link, for the footnotes):

http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

Edited May 4, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Pamela Brown]

QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE

((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))

Jim

How can you possibly defend this crazy statement that Judyth made?

How can you contradict the evidence that LHO was sending Marina back to USSR and, oh, by the way, left his wedding ring on the bureau on 11.22.63?

[Stephen Roy]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT OFFERS A DIFFERENT TAKE ON STEPHEN ROY

NOTE: Apparently I was not the only one who thought that 20 years of research does not appear to

have produced any publications. I find that extremely odd. Why not? If he has something to say, it

would the obvious thing to do as a form of confirmation of his findings. Here are some reflections by

my psy ops expert on aspects of intel ops that may have escaped his notice but interest the forum.

Jim, let me respond to Steven Roy, self proclaimed expert on David Ferrie. I understand that he hasn't published his research findings. But maybe it is out there. And if he has massive findings of twenty years of research, what good is it if not published and shared?

Of course I know the cia was started after the national security act was passed and was considered an extension of the ivy league and wall street "oh so social" Donovan boys (OSS). But alas where did the name "company" come from?

Is Steven Roy aware that there was a well defined wall street based intel agency that had cooperation with the highest level in the federal govt and military for many years since the late 1800s? Could he seriously think that David Ferrie was a normal person? All his behavior at the time of the JFK Assassination as well as before screams "mind control".

Is Steven Roy familiar with intel various "special little boys program", the "finders", MK Ultra, MK Search, Slammer, etc. and all the other "special child" procurement programs used over many years? Ever heard of Russel Trust, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, Rush River Lodge. This is where many serious ops were planned. It is a known fact that the initial planning for the Manhattan project took place at bohemian grove in the redwood forest of california not too far from San Francisco as did the planning for the Hoover Dam project. Essentially, like it or not almost all intel within the USA has been run by the shadow govt, i.e. private extra-governmental corporate bodies. This is where the control lies and all done under the guise of "national security" so that its acts cannot be easily challenged or even laid bare to the public for scrutiny. The term company is also now used to represent the CIA which is really there to service the wall street bankers and their associated defense contractors and this term reflects the constant practice of the cia setting up proprietary corporations and cutouts from which to make money for black ops and to provides cover for operations.

The OSS evolved from the private intel group associated with Sullivan and Cromwell Law Firm which evolved from the folks who owned and controlled United Fruit Company since the late 1800's. Can you spell "dulles brothers as in Allen and John Foster". This United Fruit Company was a front for a massive intel apparatus at the time which was called "the octopus" and also folks referred to it as "the company" representing the United Fruit Company related intel system (these terms were used interchangeably for that intel system, which later associated with and used wealthy rightwing Texas oilmen, defense realted companies like Brown and Root of LBJ fame, and cuban exiles under castro). Later on this organization apparently went nazi and merged with the Averil Harriman railroad faction who was also nazi based (Union bank trading with the enemy scandal).

Some informed researchers claim that US intel is still run by this same wall street corp. based faction that financed the nazis and the bolsheviks too. This group has demonstrably shifted under apparent complete nazi control since WW2, due the apparent fact that the top nazis won the war and had a very successful escape from Germany to successful exile status under operation paperclip, while the german people lost the war. Does one think it is a coincidence that dodd brought back the nazi gun control laws from Nuremberg and had them translated by the library of congress so that they could be attempted to implemented almost word for word in US law. And where do you think the term "homeland security" came from. As many are aware several respected researchers found a connection between the JFK Assassination and the nazis brought to America after the war under operation paperclip (Mae Brussel hypothesized this).

And some believe that the nazis infiltrated and hijacked US intel in general or at least formed a long term permanent partnership with them (under the guidance of imported nazis Gehlen and Mueller). These same nazis brought with them advanced mind kontrol techniques and Dr. Joseph Mengele the "angel of death" and monster torturer of many death camp twins, who is alleged to have supervised their development and implementation in the USA. One of the methods used was to select and take captive gifted young boys who met special profiles that were vulnerable sexually, and then imprint sexual inversion on them to dirty them up and deviation amplify them. It was believed these folks made the best operatives and wetboys. Was Ferrie one of these special little boys, selected out and "processed" for duty? I would be very, very amazed if it turns out that Ferrie was not a special little boy and was not extensively mind controlled throughout his life by intel. It would certainly explain all his willingness and ability to train young boys like LHO and Barry seal at the civil air patrol under Gen Byrd who also owned the texas school book depository if I remember correctly. Barry Seal turned out to be one of the biggest US govt drug dealers in history. But of course this must also be pure coincidence. Can't be any intel conspiracy here now can there?

We have nothing with which to assess the authenticity of this alleged "Psy-Ops Expert," if he(?) actually exists. We know nothing about what qualifies his expertise in "psychological operations" or the intelligence/espionage/covert action milieu, or what qualifies him to pontificate on these and other matters. Given the peculiarity of how his words come to this Forum, I cannot completely disabuse myself of the notion that this might be a persona adopted by another person in an attempt to give his comments the appearance of an expertise he does not possess. If he is a real person, there appear to be two possible means of qualification: 1) He is a former intelligence employee of some sort (who would clearly be disaffected with intelligence today); or 2) He is an outsider who has read books on intelligence, who believes this qualifies him to offer judgments about these matters (and if so, is clearly one who is both fascinated and repelled by intelligence). To me, this person sounds more like an outsider than a former intelligence employee.

I have followed his "posts" in this Forum. At first, he made generalized comments about "psyops." He then graduated to specifics of the subjects of this thread. Next, he moved on to specific advocacy of certain books and people. Finally, he is now challenging specific people in this Forum. (In these last two stages, his views strikingly parallel those of his posting pal.) Throughout, his writings are peppered with jargon from intelligence books, and the peculiar use of transposed letters ("kontrol" vs. control). Hmmmmmm... And now, as we've seen, they contain mistakes, too.

First, to Fetzer: I'm not surprised that you find it odd that not all books can be churned out in, say a year or two. For my book, it's a part time endeavor, I am shooting for a high level of detail, and I am trying to get it all right. When it's done, it's done. In the meantime, I have helped other writers and TV producers, I've spoken at conferences and I've posted a lot of stuff to the internet. But I guess you find that sinister.

Back to "Mr. PsyOps": The correct spelling of my name is Stephen. I have never proclaimed myself a Ferrie expert, just a specialist. My comments to Jim yesterday were sarcasm.

"The Company" is a euphemism used by CIA professionals to hide references to CIA from prying ears (in oral communications) and prying eyes (in written communications), and CIA was founded well after David Ferrie's adolescence. You can spin it as applying to earlier American Intelligence, but by all accounts, is was a confusing mismash of small, independent and competing agencies, into and including World War II. That's why it was centralized in 1947. I'm quite familiar with the history of intelligence in the US. My collection of intelligence books number more than 2000. If you are also an "outsider", my knowledge probably equals yours.

Was Ferrie a normal person? Certainly, his earlier life would be classified as rather ordinary. You seem to be buying into the cartoon image of Ferrie as all-evil. Tell me what behavior at the time of the assassination "screams mind control."

No, I'm not familiar with the "special little boys program." Is that the one where some NON-"company" group recruited Ferrie as a boy in the 30s, then kept him on ice to be used in an assassination plot 30 years later? Tell me ANY evidence which supports this.

Ferrie did not train Barry Seal. Ferrie was in one squadron (briefly) and Seal was in another, in another city. No link has ever been shown between them, and this includes Hopsicker's book.

The rest is just your musings about how you think everything is connected together, how some evil cabal controlled everything for years. Even if bits are true, the whole picture you present is extreme over-reaching.

I'm sorry, Mr. Psy-Ops. You made mistakes in your claims about Ferrie, for which you should own up. I'm not going to make the error of others on this thread, and disregard everything you say because of a few mistakes, because of the rambling and opinionated nature of your writings or because your anonymity renders your credentials invisible. I'll read what you have to say, accept what is true and challenge what is not.

[Pamela Brown]

SR said:I have followed his "posts" in this Forum. At first, he made generalized comments about "psyops." He then graduated to specifics of the subjects of this thread. Next, he moved on to specific advocacy of certain books and people. Finally, he is now challenging specific people in this Forum.

Interesting that Roy has managed to grasp the concept that there seems to be something more going on with these psy-op expert posts than simply replies to this thread. Yet it seems not to have occurred to Roy what the reason may be. To that end, perhaps Roy had not defined the nature of the campaign that these posts seem intended to counter (or undo).

[Dean Hagerman]

QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE

((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))

Jim

How can you possibly defend this crazy statement that Judyth made?

How can you contradict the evidence that LHO was sending Marina back to USSR and, oh, by the way, left his wedding ring on the bureau on 11.22.63?

That means nothing, maybe his ring was bothering his finger and LHO took the ring off to rub his finger and forgot to put it back on

It has happened to me, it has happened to my wife

[Dean Hagerman]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT OFFERS A DIFFERENT TAKE ON STEPHEN ROY

NOTE: Apparently I was not the only one who thought that 20 years of research does not appear to

have produced any publications. I find that extremely odd. Why not? If he has something to say, it

would the obvious thing to do as a form of confirmation of his findings. Here are some reflections by

my psy ops expert on aspects of intel ops that may have escaped his notice but interest the forum.

Jim, let me respond to Steven Roy, self proclaimed expert on David Ferrie. I understand that he hasn't published his research findings. But maybe it is out there. And if he has massive findings of twenty years of research, what good is it if not published and shared?

Of course I know the cia was started after the national security act was passed and was considered an extension of the ivy league and wall street "oh so social" Donovan boys (OSS). But alas where did the name "company" come from?

Is Steven Roy aware that there was a well defined wall street based intel agency that had cooperation with the highest level in the federal govt and military for many years since the late 1800s? Could he seriously think that David Ferrie was a normal person? All his behavior at the time of the JFK Assassination as well as before screams "mind control".

Is Steven Roy familiar with intel various "special little boys program", the "finders", MK Ultra, MK Search, Slammer, etc. and all the other "special child" procurement programs used over many years? Ever heard of Russel Trust, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, Rush River Lodge. This is where many serious ops were planned. It is a known fact that the initial planning for the Manhattan project took place at bohemian grove in the redwood forest of california not too far from San Francisco as did the planning for the Hoover Dam project. Essentially, like it or not almost all intel within the USA has been run by the shadow govt, i.e. private extra-governmental corporate bodies. This is where the control lies and all done under the guise of "national security" so that its acts cannot be easily challenged or even laid bare to the public for scrutiny. The term company is also now used to represent the CIA which is really there to service the wall street bankers and their associated defense contractors and this term reflects the constant practice of the cia setting up proprietary corporations and cutouts from which to make money for black ops and to provides cover for operations.

The OSS evolved from the private intel group associated with Sullivan and Cromwell Law Firm which evolved from the folks who owned and controlled United Fruit Company since the late 1800's. Can you spell "dulles brothers as in Allen and John Foster". This United Fruit Company was a front for a massive intel apparatus at the time which was called "the octopus" and also folks referred to it as "the company" representing the United Fruit Company related intel system (these terms were used interchangeably for that intel system, which later associated with and used wealthy rightwing Texas oilmen, defense realted companies like Brown and Root of LBJ fame, and cuban exiles under castro). Later on this organization apparently went nazi and merged with the Averil Harriman railroad faction who was also nazi based (Union bank trading with the enemy scandal).

Some informed researchers claim that US intel is still run by this same wall street corp. based faction that financed the nazis and the bolsheviks too. This group has demonstrably shifted under apparent complete nazi control since WW2, due the apparent fact that the top nazis won the war and had a very successful escape from Germany to successful exile status under operation paperclip, while the german people lost the war. Does one think it is a coincidence that dodd brought back the nazi gun control laws from Nuremberg and had them translated by the library of congress so that they could be attempted to implemented almost word for word in US law. And where do you think the term "homeland security" came from. As many are aware several respected researchers found a connection between the JFK Assassination and the nazis brought to America after the war under operation paperclip (Mae Brussel hypothesized this).

And some believe that the nazis infiltrated and hijacked US intel in general or at least formed a long term permanent partnership with them (under the guidance of imported nazis Gehlen and Mueller). These same nazis brought with them advanced mind kontrol techniques and Dr. Joseph Mengele the "angel of death" and monster torturer of many death camp twins, who is alleged to have supervised their development and implementation in the USA. One of the methods used was to select and take captive gifted young boys who met special profiles that were vulnerable sexually, and then imprint sexual inversion on them to dirty them up and deviation amplify them. It was believed these folks made the best operatives and wetboys. Was Ferrie one of these special little boys, selected out and "processed" for duty? I would be very, very amazed if it turns out that Ferrie was not a special little boy and was not extensively mind controlled throughout his life by intel. It would certainly explain all his willingness and ability to train young boys like LHO and Barry seal at the civil air patrol under Gen Byrd who also owned the texas school book depository if I remember correctly. Barry Seal turned out to be one of the biggest US govt drug dealers in history. But of course this must also be pure coincidence. Can't be any intel conspiracy here now can there?

We have nothing with which to assess the authenticity of this alleged "Psy-Ops Expert," if he(?) actually exists. We know nothing about what qualifies his expertise in "psychological operations" or the intelligence/espionage/covert action milieu, or what qualifies him to pontificate on these and other matters. Given the peculiarity of how his words come to this Forum, I cannot completely disabuse myself of the notion that this might be a persona adopted by another person in an attempt to give his comments the appearance of an expertise he does not possess. If he is a real person, there appear to be two possible means of qualification: 1) He is a former intelligence employee of some sort (who would clearly be disaffected with intelligence today); or 2) He is an outsider who has read books on intelligence, who believes this qualifies him to offer judgments about these matters (and if so, is clearly one who is both fascinated and repelled by intelligence). To me, this person sounds more like an outsider than a former intelligence employee.

I have followed his "posts" in this Forum. At first, he made generalized comments about "psyops." He then graduated to specifics of the subjects of this thread. Next, he moved on to specific advocacy of certain books and people. Finally, he is now challenging specific people in this Forum. (In these last two stages, his views strikingly parallel those of his posting pal.) Throughout, his writings are peppered with jargon from intelligence books, and the peculiar use of transposed letters ("kontrol" vs. control). Hmmmmmm... And now, as we've seen, they contain mistakes, too.

First, to Fetzer: I'm not surprised that you find it odd that not all books can be churned out in, say a year or two. For my book, it's a part time endeavor, I am shooting for a high level of detail, and I am trying to get it all right. When it's done, it's done. In the meantime, I have helped other writers and TV producers, I've spoken at conferences and I've posted a lot of stuff to the internet. But I guess you find that sinister.

Back to "Mr. PsyOps": The correct spelling of my name is Stephen. I have never proclaimed myself a Ferrie expert, just a specialist. My comments to Jim yesterday were sarcasm.

"The Company" is a euphemism used by CIA professionals to hide references to CIA from prying ears (in oral communications) and prying eyes (in written communications), and CIA was founded well after David Ferrie's adolescence. You can spin it as applying to earlier American Intelligence, but by all accounts, is was a confusing mismash of small, independent and competing agencies, into and including World War II. That's why it was centralized in 1947. I'm quite familiar with the history of intelligence in the US. My collection of intelligence books number more than 2000. If you are also an "outsider", my knowledge probably equals yours.

Was Ferrie a normal person? Certainly, his earlier life would be classified as rather ordinary. You seem to be buying into the cartoon image of Ferrie as all-evil. Tell me what behavior at the time of the assassination "screams mind control."

No, I'm not familiar with the "special little boys program." Is that the one where some NON-"company" group recruited Ferrie as a boy in the 30s, then kept him on ice to be used in an assassination plot 30 years later? Tell me ANY evidence which supports this.

Ferrie did not train Barry Seal. Ferrie was in one squadron (briefly) and Seal was in another, in another city. No link has ever been shown between them, and this includes Hopsicker's book.

The rest is just your musings about how you think everything is connected together, how some evil cabal controlled everything for years. Even if bits are true, the whole picture you present is extreme over-reaching.

I'm sorry, Mr. Psy-Ops. You made mistakes in your claims about Ferrie, for which you should own up. I'm not going to make the error of others on this thread, and disregard everything you say because of a few mistakes, because of the rambling and opinionated nature of your writings or because your anonymity renders your credentials invisible. I'll read what you have to say, accept what is true and challenge what is not.

Very good post Stephen!

Im 100% positive there is no "Psy-Ops expert" if there was why wouldnt we be givin his name at least?

Mr Psy Ops is too scared to post all on his own, he has to have Jim hold his hand and post for him like a small child

[Stephen Roy]

SR said:I have followed his "posts" in this Forum. At first, he made generalized comments about "psyops." He then graduated to specifics of the subjects of this thread. Next, he moved on to specific advocacy of certain books and people. Finally, he is now challenging specific people in this Forum.

Interesting that Roy has managed to grasp the concept that there seems to be something more going on with these psy-op expert posts than simply replies to this thread. Yet it seems not to have occurred to Roy what the reason may be. To that end, perhaps Roy had not defined the nature of the campaign that these posts seem intended to counter (or undo).

What??? Could you try this one again, in English this time?