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Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile


Guest James H. Fetzer

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Doug,

You quoted me before I had revised my post. Wow--you're really quick. Sorry Barb, I edited that post to remove the venom before anyone read it and make it clearer--but Doug grabbed it first. It was within a few minutes. Wow--vigilant you are counselor.

You guys are attempting to prove a negative. I get it now. That's OK. Like I said from the beginning, I have no objection to the analysis--NONE. I just found the approach interesting, that's all.

I will refrain from addressing this subject in the future. I see your point Doug. Apprently you can't see mine. A pity.

Monk:

It's late here but I think I understand your point. I am always open to the evidence. As I noted before I believe she is a "tainted" witness as you eloquently put it for me. However, this is something she could not have researched and it would be a significant verification of her credibility. For many on the fence and wanting to believe her it would give them a significant excuse to do so. I did listen to the youtube on Cancun. One thing was not clear to me. If it was possible that Lee was going to get married within Cancun, Kancun, somewhere in the Yucatan peninsula, or Merida how were they going to find crooked priests everywhere or were they going to take one with them? Also the "quickie" Mexican" divorces are not so simple except in instances where there are no assets or children involved. Marina would have been entitled to child support. It is unlikely Texas would have recognized the divorce and Oswald would have been subjected to serious felony charges of bigamy if he ever returned to the United States unless Marina would have sought a divorce for abandonment and/or adultery in Texas. If that happened Oswald would still have been subject to arrest for failure to pay child support. I do not believe there were any no-fault divorces in 1963 in the United States. Bernice, if you look up Judyth Baker on you-tube you can find the videos. Monk, I always appreciate your reasoning. Let's demand that this get done.

Doug Weldon

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Barb,

It is the least important of her claims if it does NOT establish anything beyond itself! Them having known each other, in and of itself, means nothing. It is unbelievable to me that you are acting this "clever".

It looks like we just disagree, Greg. Them having known one another is the base of virtually all her claims re New Orleans and the assassination. Thus, it is vital to her entire story that she can establish that she even knew Oswald. Everything else flows from that. I stand by what I said before ...

The "least important" of her claims?? Helloooo? That she knew Oswald is the **base** ... the springboard ... for all of her claims about her adventures in New Orleans that summer and beyond! According to Judyth, Oswald introduced her to Ferrie and Ochsner and Mary Sherman .... lets not forget "Sparky" and Marcello and Thornley and most any other alleged assassination player you care to name. Oswald worked with her in Ferrie's kitchen, she trained him to handle the "bioweapon" for transport. He took her to the mental hospital in Jackson to make sure the "patient" there who had been injected with their little cocktail would die.

She supposedly learned all about the assassination that was coming down from Oswald .... then throw in the love affair, plans to disappear together after the assassination, etc .... and you think her claim of LHO's handwriting in her book, which would establish that she even knew him, is the "least important"?

I am not "acting" "clever" ... it is how I see it and I stated why. Are you trying to be "clever"? :-)

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that the handwriting expert confirmed it was Oswald's writing. At this point you would concede what exactly? Anything? Perhaps you'd concede "the least important" claim? I can hear you now: "Based on this analysis, yes, they probably knew each other, but so what? That still doesn't prove anything else!"

I think I've answered this about 3 times now. If the handwriting is certified by an appropriate professional to be Oswald's handwriting, I would acknowledge that they knew one another. As noted above, I do not think that is the "least important" claim. And, of course, it would prove nothing about her other claims beyond that. How could it? And, as I recall, you agreed it would not.

IMO: Since Jim doesn't need that confirmation in order to believe her, he isn't compelled to pursue it. And, since her detractors still wouldn't be convinced even with the confirmation, he's again not compelled to pursue it.

What Fetzer personally needs is not my problem. All he seems to need on anything is her sayso. What Judyth's claims need are verification. And this is one claim that could be confirmed or denied by having a professional, court approved documents examiner confirm or deny that the writing in her book is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. As I already noted before as well ...This is research. There is a claim. It is a claim that can be confirmed or denied by a professional.

I believe you have stated more than once that you are on the fence regarding Judyth ... you just don't know, haven't had time to do research, verification, etc. Yet you don't seem to think verifying whether or not her claim that LHO wrote these notes in the margins of her book is true is important. Go figure.

Bests to you, Greg

Barb :-)

I am not a graphologist (handwriting expert) but many years ago I spent months studying

every sample alleged to be the writing of LHO reproduced in the 26 volumes. I xeroxed

each sample in the 26 volumes, cut out his signature (I only studied his signature, not

entire documents) and classified them according to printing (always all capitals) and

cursive. I then broke these down by letter shapes and slants. My conclusion was that

the LHO signatures were written by TWO OR MORE persons.

I am not a graphologist...but these are things anyone can observe.

Jack

PS. I recall that once LHO even misspelled his own name, spelling it LE instead of LEE.

Several times he misspelled the names of his mother and father, and once had the

date of his father's birth wrong. He twice spelled his mother's name MARGRET instead of

MARGUERITE.

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Marmosets were not being used in medical research in 1963.

JVB wrote that they PROCESSED THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF MONKEYS.

What was the time period involved in "processing" all these monkeys?

What was involved in injecting the monkeys, the time required for

tumors to grow, the complete process in just one monkey; same for

thousands of monkeys. Who was responsible for euthanizing each

used-up monkey and disposing of the corpses? How were the monkeys

cared for (the expert says veterinarians would be required)? And

what about the mice? Most experiments were said to be done with

color coded mice. How could just two people do all of this in their

spare time?

Jack

JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT MARMOSETS

Judyth writes that the project used relatively few marmosets--which editors of her book have known for a long time prior to the issue being raised...She asks, Where did Jack White gets the idea of many marmosets, when it was explained that they quickly moved on to green monkeys (and even some rhesus monkeys)? He ignored the other monkeys. The marmosets were in cages that were quite small, but of course they were only baby marmosets, and were soon sacrificed --the technical term, their fast-growing tumors harvested to be used to proceed to the next stage--using many, much larger monkeys. White continues to ignore the fact that this transit stage was brief and involved relatively few marmosets--perhaps 50.

They were using tiny marmosets,...

Ahh, that explains it ... they were *tiny* marmosets ... no wonder she forgot about

them and they weren't part of her original story ...

Tiny marmosets die quickly without their parents. Marmosets live in FAMILIES and require large cages.

Marmosets were not used for medical research in 1963.

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Barb,

It is the least important of her claims if it does NOT establish anything beyond itself! Them having known each other, in and of itself, means nothing. It is unbelievable to me that you are acting this "clever".

It looks like we just disagree, Greg. Them having known one another is the base of virtually all her claims re New Orleans and the assassination. Thus, it is vital to her entire story that she can establish that she even knew Oswald. Everything else flows from that. I stand by what I said before ...

The "least important" of her claims?? Helloooo? That she knew Oswald is the **base** ... the springboard ... for all of her claims about her adventures in New Orleans that summer and beyond! According to Judyth, Oswald introduced her to Ferrie and Ochsner and Mary Sherman .... lets not forget "Sparky" and Marcello and Thornley and most any other alleged assassination player you care to name. Oswald worked with her in Ferrie's kitchen, she trained him to handle the "bioweapon" for transport. He took her to the mental hospital in Jackson to make sure the "patient" there who had been injected with their little cocktail would die.

She supposedly learned all about the assassination that was coming down from Oswald .... then throw in the love affair, plans to disappear together after the assassination, etc .... and you think her claim of LHO's handwriting in her book, which would establish that she even knew him, is the "least important"?

I am not "acting" "clever" ... it is how I see it and I stated why. Are you trying to be "clever"? :-)

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that the handwriting expert confirmed it was Oswald's writing. At this point you would concede what exactly? Anything? Perhaps you'd concede "the least important" claim? I can hear you now: "Based on this analysis, yes, they probably knew each other, but so what? That still doesn't prove anything else!"

I think I've answered this about 3 times now. If the handwriting is certified by an appropriate professional to be Oswald's handwriting, I would acknowledge that they knew one another. As noted above, I do not think that is the "least important" claim. And, of course, it would prove nothing about her other claims beyond that. How could it? And, as I recall, you agreed it would not.

IMO: Since Jim doesn't need that confirmation in order to believe her, he isn't compelled to pursue it. And, since her detractors still wouldn't be convinced even with the confirmation, he's again not compelled to pursue it.

What Fetzer personally needs is not my problem. All he seems to need on anything is her sayso. What Judyth's claims need are verification. And this is one claim that could be confirmed or denied by having a professional, court approved documents examiner confirm or deny that the writing in her book is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. As I already noted before as well ...This is research. There is a claim. It is a claim that can be confirmed or denied by a professional.

I believe you have stated more than once that you are on the fence regarding Judyth ... you just don't know, haven't had time to do research, verification, etc. Yet you don't seem to think verifying whether or not her claim that LHO wrote these notes in the margins of her book is true is important. Go figure.

Bests to you, Greg

Barb :-)

I am not a graphologist (handwriting expert) but many years ago I spent months studying

every sample alleged to be the writing of LHO reproduced in the 26 volumes. I xeroxed

each sample in the 26 volumes, cut out his signature (I only studied his signature, not

entire documents) and classified them according to printing (always all capitals) and

cursive. I then broke these down by letter shapes and slants. My conclusion was that

the LHO signatures were written by TWO OR MORE persons.

I am not a graphologist...but these are things anyone can observe.

Jack

PS. I recall that once LHO even misspelled his own name, spelling it LE instead of LEE.

Several times he misspelled the names of his mother and father, and once had the

date of his father's birth wrong. He twice spelled his mother's name MARGRET instead of

MARGUERITE.

Jack:

It would be appropriate to give all these examples to compare with Judyth's sample. Will it match any of them? If there was more than one person portraying themselves as Oswald any match would be beneficial to Judyth. I disagree with Monk that this is trying to prove a negative. It is simply an issue that goes to credibility. Judyth should be held to the same standard as anyone. As Jim has demanded Lifton's tape I would like to hear such things as Judyth's tape of the incident at Mary Ferrill's house that she asserts gives a totally different account of what others said happened. Again, for credibility purposes, I believe it would help anyone weighing the truth and veracity of what people are asserting to have Jim post these recordings.. Again, this is hard evidence and not the he said, she said that seems to exist many times throughout the thread.

Doug Weldon

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WOW! So many anomalies, so little time.

So a bioweapon was being devised by the CIA to kill Castro, but the CIA needed TO PENETRATE "THE PROJECT"

to see what progress was being made! So they chose LEE HARVEY OSWALD, who knew nothing of medical research

projects, and he took a quick crash course in cancer research, and managed to meet for 45 minutes with Oschner,

and was put to work in Ferrie's lab helping with cancer research. I wonder why doctors spend four years learning

stuff like this when Oswald did it in 45 minutes? Oh, I forgot...he was so brilliant that he mastered the Russian language

in a like amount of time. Cancer research would be a snap for a guy of his brilliance.

Jack

JUDYTH TALKS ABOUT LEE'S EXPECTATIONS FOR THE FUTURE

NOTE: Thanks for your intelligent comments, Pamela. They are much appreciated in the context of this thread.

Lee Oswald was involved in The Project before I was. He had been ordered to conduct a pro-Castro campaign in Dallas, to commence right after Gen. Walker had been fired upon. Lee complied and it is on record that he conducted his first pro-Cuba demonstration, handing out leaflets, in Dallas prior to his move to New Orleans (skeptics, go look it up!). He confided in me that he realized that he was placed in that dangerous position to 'test' his loyalty. He was very concerned because of the hypersensitivity of the Dallas police after the Walker incident-- he realized they might arrest him, beat him up, jail him, or maybe kill him. He told me he advised Marina of the potential dangers to him and how it might affect her. A note he is said to have written to Marina, about what to do if these bad things happened to him, has been used to link him to the Walker shooting, though it was undated. His leafletting was only days after the incident, and he complained afterwards that he wished to be transferred to New Orleans, where he had been apprised that he could be useful.

Lee arrived in New Orleans within the week that I had. He met with David Ferrie the evening before I met him. He agreed to become involved in The Project before I met him, and he spoke to Dr. Ochsner for forty-five minutes before I was able to speak to Ochsner. Near the end, when so much had gone wrong, Lee told me, "It wasn't your fault (that he had gotten involved)." He said that he had been assigned by the CIA to snoop on Ochnser's project and had accepted the assignment. CIA wanted to know the progress and prognosis in reference to the success (or not) of The Project. CIA wanted control of it and feared Ochsner might lose control. Lee was willing to learn so much about certain lab procedures, he told me, originally so he would be able to transfer information to CIA.

He became essential to the Mexico City handoff where he would orally transmit the information. But in the process of that assignment, Lee was set up. Ochsner certainly had expressed his displeasure about my anger at using a prisoner who did NOT have terminal cancer--as I had been told at first -- a prisoner who I discovered was not even informed about the nature of the experiment. I was outraged and protested by note. As for Lee, after he had his mission aborted in Mexico City--but not before he was framed there--he was ordered to Dallas. As Lee explained to me, however, he had volunteered for this, it was not my fault simply because I'd protested, because well before this, Lee had been treated badly --such as when he was shown to Veciana in the presence of his handler, and other incidents. Lee had confided to me that he was "better off dead" to both sides, neither of which felt they could trust him.

Lee's belief was that he had been set up to be framed in Mexico City well before I made my protest, because he had been told to do leafletting RIGHT AFTER THE RAID at the camp near Lake Pontchartrain.. Anti-Castro Cubans in New Orleans were up in arms, angry at the FBI raid, etc. And here Lee is told to do the leafletting anyway. No respect for him, his safety, Lee realized. Lee got it put off a week. He was ordered to Dallas after the failed Mexico City endeavor. He did stop at the US Public Health Service border unit at the Mexican border where he left some kind of message about having left the bioweapon behind. He also inquired regarding 'quickie divorces' at the border towns before crossing over, according to records minimized as to importance by the FBI.

Lee Oswald had been assigned by the CIA to penetrate The Project. He did an excellent job. But he believed as early as July that he was a dead man, as I reported in 1999.

JVB

You have discounted all the evidence that shows that LHO was trying to send Marina back to USSR.

I'll try again.

...and he'd lose his kids?

And just in case it's lost on you I'll ask you one more time to be sure.

...and he'd lose his kids?

Nevertheless, this was the path LHO was pursuing. Why not accept that?

Accept what? That he was prepared to lose the one thing he actually unconditionally loved in his life? His daughters!

I can accept that letters were sent to the Russian Embassy (by both Marina and Lee - or persons unknown) but I also accept that we'll never know why they were sent? But you perhaps think your guess is better than other guesses?

Can you accept that Lee said to consider his request separately? Did it occur to you to take that seriously?

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Doug...the studies I did were about 30 years ago. I doubt that I could find any of them now. I may

have a slide of some of the signatures if I can find it. However, a graphologist or questioned document

examiner would examine A COMPLETE DOCUMENT, not just signatures as I did. I will look to see

whether I can find some of the signatures I collected.

Jack

Barb,

It is the least important of her claims if it does NOT establish anything beyond itself! Them having known each other, in and of itself, means nothing. It is unbelievable to me that you are acting this "clever".

It looks like we just disagree, Greg. Them having known one another is the base of virtually all her claims re New Orleans and the assassination. Thus, it is vital to her entire story that she can establish that she even knew Oswald. Everything else flows from that. I stand by what I said before ...

The "least important" of her claims?? Helloooo? That she knew Oswald is the **base** ... the springboard ... for all of her claims about her adventures in New Orleans that summer and beyond! According to Judyth, Oswald introduced her to Ferrie and Ochsner and Mary Sherman .... lets not forget "Sparky" and Marcello and Thornley and most any other alleged assassination player you care to name. Oswald worked with her in Ferrie's kitchen, she trained him to handle the "bioweapon" for transport. He took her to the mental hospital in Jackson to make sure the "patient" there who had been injected with their little cocktail would die.

She supposedly learned all about the assassination that was coming down from Oswald .... then throw in the love affair, plans to disappear together after the assassination, etc .... and you think her claim of LHO's handwriting in her book, which would establish that she even knew him, is the "least important"?

I am not "acting" "clever" ... it is how I see it and I stated why. Are you trying to be "clever"? :-)

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that the handwriting expert confirmed it was Oswald's writing. At this point you would concede what exactly? Anything? Perhaps you'd concede "the least important" claim? I can hear you now: "Based on this analysis, yes, they probably knew each other, but so what? That still doesn't prove anything else!"

I think I've answered this about 3 times now. If the handwriting is certified by an appropriate professional to be Oswald's handwriting, I would acknowledge that they knew one another. As noted above, I do not think that is the "least important" claim. And, of course, it would prove nothing about her other claims beyond that. How could it? And, as I recall, you agreed it would not.

IMO: Since Jim doesn't need that confirmation in order to believe her, he isn't compelled to pursue it. And, since her detractors still wouldn't be convinced even with the confirmation, he's again not compelled to pursue it.

What Fetzer personally needs is not my problem. All he seems to need on anything is her sayso. What Judyth's claims need are verification. And this is one claim that could be confirmed or denied by having a professional, court approved documents examiner confirm or deny that the writing in her book is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. As I already noted before as well ...This is research. There is a claim. It is a claim that can be confirmed or denied by a professional.

I believe you have stated more than once that you are on the fence regarding Judyth ... you just don't know, haven't had time to do research, verification, etc. Yet you don't seem to think verifying whether or not her claim that LHO wrote these notes in the margins of her book is true is important. Go figure.

Bests to you, Greg

Barb :-)

I am not a graphologist (handwriting expert) but many years ago I spent months studying

every sample alleged to be the writing of LHO reproduced in the 26 volumes. I xeroxed

each sample in the 26 volumes, cut out his signature (I only studied his signature, not

entire documents) and classified them according to printing (always all capitals) and

cursive. I then broke these down by letter shapes and slants. My conclusion was that

the LHO signatures were written by TWO OR MORE persons.

I am not a graphologist...but these are things anyone can observe.

Jack

PS. I recall that once LHO even misspelled his own name, spelling it LE instead of LEE.

Several times he misspelled the names of his mother and father, and once had the

date of his father's birth wrong. He twice spelled his mother's name MARGRET instead of

MARGUERITE.

Jack:

It would be appropriate to give all these examples to compare with Judyth's sample. Will it match any of them? If there was more than one person portraying themselves as Oswald any match would be beneficial to Judyth. I disagree with Monk that this is trying to prove a negative. It is simply an issue that goes to credibility. Judyth should be held to the same standard as anyone. As Jim has demanded Lifton's tape I would like to hear such things as Judyth's tape of the incident at Mary Ferrill's house that she asserts gives a totally different account of what others said happened. Again, for credibility purposes, I believe it would help anyone weighing the truth and veracity of what people are asserting to have Jim post these recordings.. Again, this is hard evidence and not the he said, she said that seems to exist many times throughout the thread.

Doug Weldon

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Dixie,

Thanks for your post, and especially this part:

QUOTE:

In addition, there has been a whole lot of past discussion regarding the CanCun story, as David Lifton has mentioned.... . . after she learned there was no CanCun Resort at that time, she denied ever saying that. Then later she claimed it was her past agent that added it and she had only meant the CanCun area, since she didn't feel anyone would know where nearby Chichen Itza was. (It is not all that nearby though). So, then a woman on the discussion group posted some info that the Village of KanKun had been there for many, many years and she even had a link to an old map, showing it. In addition, that same woman mentioned there had been a nice hotel in Chichen Itza for years....the Mayaland Hotel. Up until that point, Judyth was still denying she ever said it was a fine hotel in CanCun. But suddenly with that new info and after mentioning various places they intended to visit, she ran with it....and later appeared in her book, as her own claim. Now she insists that she had always known about the old Village of KanKun. If so, it never came up until that woman appeared with that info....then sudenly she had always known it and what she meant when speaking to David L. I just do not buy that, at that point in time, when she spoke to him. UNQUOTE

If you can ever come up with the actual Internet posts --including the date(s)--of the woman who volunteered this information (i.e., who discovered "Kankun", and posted that data) I would appreciate having these details. They mark an important "inflection point" in the evolution of her story. Because they demonstrate exactly how Judyth operates, and how she bobs and weaves around the existing record. In this instance, first she tap danced around the major gaffe she had committed; and then, when she learned of "Kankun," she immediateley adjusted/changed her story to incorporate the new-found information. That's precisely how she handles inconsistencies, "making it up" as the goes along. She evinces the psychology (and even the methodology) of a combination of producer and screenwriter of her own fictions, who, when a gaffe has occurred in a film shoot, respondings by saying, "Oh well, we'll fix that in the editing room."

In this case, the "editing room" is the fertile imagination of Judyth's mind.

This would all be very amusing if it were not the case that this lady if hawking a completely fictional history of a major aspect of the Kennedy assassination, duping many who should know better, and, in addition, besmirching the true character of someone she claims to have loved.

I'm not surprised that someone who claims to have seen the Zapruder film at a New York City theater, in the fall of 1964 (when it was clearly under lock and key, and obviously not being screened at any New York City theater) should rush to her defense, but I would think most people, without an agenda, and with a modicum of good judgment, would know better, and behave accordingly.

What total nonsense.

DSL

5/1/10 2:25 AM

Los Angeles, CA

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I would like to compare the Mary-Ferrie-Vary/Lee SECRET BIOLAB with the Manhattan Project

when it comes to "secret government projects".

The atomic bomb was developed in TOTAL SECRECY which involved thousands of people at

universities, major companies and government offices. So an important government project

CAN be done with complete secrecy.

But according to JVB the CIA secret bioweapon lab was SO SECRET that it had to be done

"off the record" in a New Orleans apartment with a freaky homosexual former airline pilot,

a teen-aged girl, and a former defector to Russia...supervised by a little known doctor...and

the doctor had to be killed later by a linear particle accelerator because "she knew too

much"...but the teen girl was allowed to survive for a half century.

And the "secret kitchen lab" remained "secret" despite the frequent delivery of large cages

of monkeys of all sizes. Few things would attract as much attention as having a "monkey

house" in the neighborhood.

Jack

Edited by Jack White
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I would like to compare the Mary-Ferrie-Vary/Lee SECRET BIOLAB with the Manhattan Project

when it comes to "secret government projects".

The atomic bomb was developed in TOTAL SECRECY which involved thousands of people at

universities, major companies and government offices. So an important government project

CAN be done with complete secrecy.

But according to JVB the CIA secret bioweapon lab was SO SECRET that it had to be done

"off the record" in a New Orleans apartment with a freaky homosexual former airline pilot,

a teen-aged girl, and a former defector to Russia...supervised by a little known doctor...and

the doctor had to be killed later by a linear particle accelerator because "she knew too

much"...but the teen girl was allowed to survive for a half century.

And the "secret kitchen lab" remained "secret" despite the frequent delivery of large cages

of monkeys of all sizes. Few things would attract as much attention as having a "monkey

house" in the neighborhood.

Jack

A familiar pattern. As the explanations mature, they often tend to end up where it's impossible to get confirmation. Same thing with the asylum issue, JVBs special treatment was so special that not even the Swedish government was aware of it, things developed "off the record".

Bizarre.

Edited by Glenn Viklund
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Guest James H. Fetzer

JIM REPLIES TO THE ANTI-JUDYTH VARY BAKER CULT OF LIFTON/WELDON/WHITE/JUNKKARINEN

NOTE: I love this Lifton/Weldon/White/Junkkarinen "brain trust". No matter what we provide in the form of refutations of specific claims, like this Lifton nonsense about "Cancun/Kankun", the myths persist. This does not appear to be a research effort but the performance of a cult, where the method of tenacity prevails, which is not going to change its mind, no matter what the evidence. This is a self-preservation exercise. What more can we do than repost previous replies:

Judyth and I have discussed this and I don't know why you think you can discredit her on this basis. QUOTE 1 is the basic story: she had told her agent at the time, Peter Cox, that they were going to meet in the Yucatan in the vicinity of Chichen Itz. Lee had not used the name "Cancun", which, as you have observed, did not exist other than in the form of the village of Kankun. She put her finger on a map at his request and he said, "Oh, Cancun!", and ran with it. Since in QUOTE 2 Shackelford said what had happened (how the misunderstanding had arisen), there is certainly no inconsistency there. And QUOTE 3 is one where Judyth is being more specific about what they (she and Lee) had actually discussed, where QUOTE 4 expands on their tentative plans. Mexico is a predominantly Catholic country, of course, so they would expect to be married by a priest. There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth. On the other hand, this appears to me to be a nice example of TRYING TO CREATE A CONFLICT rather than TRYING TO SORT THINGS OUT. I discussed each of the quotes with Judyth and, the more we talked about it, the more it became apparent to me that this arose from violating the condition of translation known as "the principle of charity", where you should (in ordinary conversational contexts) look for interpretations that make what you are being told come out to be true. Instead, you and your allies are looking for an interpretation that makes what you are being to told come out false. But it all hangs together the right way. I have done a YouTube interview with Judyth about this, which I recommend to everyone. This is a great to-do about nothing.

Dixie,

Thanks for your post, and especially this part:

QUOTE:

In addition, there has been a whole lot of past discussion regarding the CanCun story, as David Lifton has mentioned.... . . after she learned there was no CanCun Resort at that time, she denied ever saying that. Then later she claimed it was her past agent that added it and she had only meant the CanCun area, since she didn't feel anyone would know where nearby Chichen Itza was. (It is not all that nearby though). So, then a woman on the discussion group posted some info that the Village of KanKun had been there for many, many years and she even had a link to an old map, showing it. In addition, that same woman mentioned there had been a nice hotel in Chichen Itza for years....the Mayaland Hotel. Up until that point, Judyth was still denying she ever said it was a fine hotel in CanCun. But suddenly with that new info and after mentioning various places they intended to visit, she ran with it....and later appeared in her book, as her own claim. Now she insists that she had always known about the old Village of KanKun. If so, it never came up until that woman appeared with that info....then sudenly she had always known it and what she meant when speaking to David L. I just do not buy that, at that point in time, when she spoke to him. UNQUOTE

If you can ever come up with the actual Internet posts --including the date(s)--of the woman who volunteered this information (i.e., who discovered "Kankun", and posted that data) I would appreciate having these details. They mark an important "inflection point" in the evolution of her story. Because they demonstrate exactly how Judyth operates, and how she bobs and weaves around the existing record. In this instance, first she tap danced around the major gaffe she had committed; and then, when she learned of "Kankun," she immediateley adjusted/changed her story to incorporate the new-found information. That's precisely how she handles inconsistencies, "making it up" as the goes along. She evinces the psychology (and even the methodology) of a combination of producer and screenwriter of her own fictions, who, when a gaffe has occurred in a film shoot, respondings by saying, "Oh well, we'll fix that in the editing room."

In this case, the "editing room" is the fertile imagination of Judyth's mind.

This would all be very amusing if it were not the case that this lady if hawking a completely fictional history of a major aspect of the Kennedy assassination, duping many who should know better, and, in addition, besmirching the true character of someone she claims to have loved.

I'm not surprised that someone who claims to have seen the Zapruder film at a New York City theater, in the fall of 1964 (when it was clearly under lock and key, and obviously not being screened at any New York City theater) should rush to her defense, but I would think most people, without an agenda, and with a modicum of good judgment, would know better, and behave accordingly.

What total nonsense.

DSL

5/1/10 2:25 AM

Los Angeles, CA

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Fetzer:

"There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth."

You've by now gotten arguments from 15-20 of the most experienced JFK researchers, and from several others too. I cannot recollect that the two of you have accepted one single argument to this day from the other side as of yet. You are lecturing others about how to deal with arguments, and still you are far from acting this way yourself.

What I remember from the mod group back in 2008 is that you are doing exactly what Shackelford did then. He's not around anymore - I wonder for how long you'll be around with this nonsense?

Edited by Glenn Viklund
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Guest James H. Fetzer

Sorry about that, Bernicie. These links should work:

1/6

2/6

3/6

4/6

5/6

6/7

1

WHERE DO YOU CLICK ON THE INTERVIEWS DR.JIM I CANNOT GET ANY TO WORK, THEY ARE LIKE JUST PHOTOS..NO LINKS...THANKS B I BELIEVE THIS LINK WILL TAKE YOU TO THE VIDEOS FYI
Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Guest James H. Fetzer

Viklund, I should have added you as a cheerleader for the anti-Judyth cult.

In case you haven't noticed, I have posted rebuttals to virtually every one

of the vast number of criticisms that have been lodged against her. Why in

the world would you think that I would believe in Judyth without doing my

own homework? I have explained many times why your claims about her

stay in Sweden are baseless on their face. Jack has made many worthless

criticisms and does not even bother to read the most important work about

Judyth. Lifton won't share his precious cassette, no doubt because it would

reveal aspects of their conversation that he wants to conceal. Weldon has

gone off the deep end with this absurdity about bringing murder charges

against her. None of you has ever conceded that she had anything right!

This kind closed-mindedness in the face of contrary evidence is distinctive

of a cult. I plan to tackle some issues that remain, but I have no reason to

think anti-Judyth zealots like the four of you will ever change your minds.

Fetzer:

"There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth."

You've by now gotten arguments from 15-20 of the most experienced JFK researchers, and from several others too. I cannot recollect that the two of you have accepted one single argument to this day from the other side as of yet. You are lecturing others about how to deal with arguments, and still you are far from acting this way yourself.

What I remember from the mod group back in 2008 is that you are doing exactly what Shackelford did then. He's not around anymore - I wonder for how long you'll be around with this nonsense?

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None of my claims are "baseless" or "rebutted" as you've also stated. She invented a lot of stories around this that are simply fiction. I have asked you many times to specify exactly where my errors are. My translations of the documents involved have since long been verified.

The simple fact of the matter is that you consistently is buying JVBs arguments, no matter what the issue is or what the evidence presented are. You are obviously afraid to discuss the substance of several issues, instead you out of hand dismisses any argument and discredits those who are behind these arguments.

Tell me, Mr Fetzer, is this what you taught at your university?

Edited by Glenn Viklund
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