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Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile


Guest James H. Fetzer

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Of course he is, he meant 4.

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A very select list of history's smartest pesons:

Abraham Lincoln President USA 128

Adolf Hitler Nazi leader Germany 141

Al Gore Politician USA 134

Albert Einstein Physicist USA 160

Albrecht von Haller Medical scientist Switzerland 190

Alexander Pope Poet & writer England 180

Andrew J. Wiles Mathematician England 170

Andrew Jackson President USA 123

Andy Warhol Pop artist USA 86

Anthonis Van Dyck Artist Belgium 155

Archure Musician Artist Writer USA 147+

Arnauld Theologian France 190

Arne Beurling Mathematician Sweden 180

Arnold Schwarzenegger Actor Austria 135

Baruch Spinoza Philosopher Holland 175

Benjamin Franklin Writer, scientist & politician USA 160

Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister Israel 180

Bill (William) J. Clinton President USA 137

Bill Gates CEO, Microsoft USA 160

Blaise Pascal Mathematician & religious philosopher France 195

Bobby Fischer Chess player USA 187

Bonaparte Napoleon Emperor France 145

Buonarroti Michelangelo Artist, poet & architect Italy 180

Carl von Linné Botanist Sweden 165

Charles Darwin Naturalist England 165

Charles Dickens Writer England 180

Christopher Langan Bouncer & scientist & philosopher USA 195

David Hume Philosopher & politician Scotland 180

Dolph Lundgren Actor Sweden 160

Donald Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Dr David Livingstone Explorer & doctor Scotland 170

Emanuel Swedenborg " Sweden 205

Felix Mendelssohn Composer Germany 165

Friedrich Hegel Philosopher Germany 165

Friedrich von Schelling Philosopher Germany 190

Galileo Galilei Physicist & astronomer & philosopher Italy 185

Garry Kasparov Chess player Russia 190

Geena Davis Actress USA 140

George Berkeley Philosopher Ireland 190

George H. Choueiri A.C.E Leader Lebanon 195

George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) Writer England 160

George Friedrich Händel Composer Germany 170

George Sand Writer France 150

George W. Bush President USA 125

George Washington President USA 118

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz " Germany 205

H. C. Anderson Writer Denmark 145

Hillary Clinton Ex-President wife USA 140

Hjalmar Schacht Nazi officer Germany 143

Honoré de Balzac Writer France 155

Hugo Grotius Writer Holland 200

Hypatia Philosopher & mathematician Alexandria 170

Immanuel Kant Philosopher Germany 175

James Cook Explorer England 160

James Watt Physicist & technician Scotland 165

James Woods Actor USA 180

Jayne Mansfield Actress USA 149

Jean M. Auel Writer Canada 140

Jodie Foster Actor USA 132

Johann Sebastian Bach Composer Germany 165

Johann Strauss Composer Germany 170

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe " Germany 210

Johannes Kepler Mathematician, physicist & astronomer Germany 175

John Adams President USA 137

John F. Kennedy' Ex-President USA 117

John H. Sununu Chief of Staff for President Bush USA 180

John Locke Philosopher England 165

John Quincy Adams President USA 153

John Stuart Mill Universal Genius England 200

Jola Sigmond Teacher Sweden 161

Jonathan Swift Writer & theologian England 155

Joseph Haydn Composer Austria 160

Joseph Louis Lagrange Mathematician & astronomer Italy/France 185

Judith Polgar Chess player Hungary 170

Judyth Vary Baker Novelist USA & Exile 160

Kim Ung-Yong " Korea 200

Leonardo da Vinci Universal Genius Italy 220

Lord Byron Poet & writer England 180

Ludwig van Beethoven Composer Germany 165

Ludwig Wittgenstein Philosopher Austria 190

Madame De Stael Novelist & philosopher France 180

Madonna Singer USA 140

Marilyn Vos Savant Writer USA 186

Martin Luther Theorist Germany 170

Miguel de Cervantes Writer Spain 155

Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomer Poland 160

Nicole Kidman Actor USA 132

Paul Allen Microsoft cofounder USA 160

Philip Emeagwali Mathematician Nigeria 190 (shows that race is no issue)

Phillipp Melanchthon Humanist & theologian Germany 190

Pierre Simon de Laplace Astronomer & mathematician France 190

Plato Philosopher Greece 170

Ralph Waldo Emerson Writer USA 155

Raphael Artist Italy 170

Rembrandt van Rijn Artist Holland 155

René Descartes Mathematician & philosopher France 185

Richard Nixon Ex-President USA 143

Richard Wagner Composer Germany 170

Robert Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Rousseau Writer France 150

Sarpi Councilor & theologian & historian Italy 195

Shakira Singer Colombia 140

Sharon Stone Actress USA 154

Sir Clive Sinclair Inventor England 159

Sir Francis Galton Scientist & doctor England 200

Sir Isaac Newton Scientist England 190

Sofia Kovalevskaya Mathematician & writer Sweden/Russia 170

Stephen W. Hawking Physicist England 160

Thomas Chatterton Poet & writer England 180

Thomas Jefferson President USA 138

Thomas Wolsey Politician England 200

Truman Cloak " " 165

Ulysses S. Grant President USA 110

Voltaire Writer France 190

William James Sidis " USA 200

William Pitt (the Younger) Politician England 190

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Composer Austria 165

Jack, there was no IQ test when most of these people were alive, so whoever made this list was just guesstimating.

100 is by definition average. 200 is the highest score possible. The tests are not standard from year to year. It could very well be, therefore, that a 100 in 1963 would translate to a 105 in 2010, etc.

FWIW, when I was 7 years old my mother was told I had a very high IQ, and was asked if they could skip me ahead in school. She said no, afraid I would be mocked by the older kids. In fifth grade I was put into an experimental program, whereby the kids with the highest IQs from grades 5, 4, and 3, were put in a single class, the "gifted" class. The minimum IQ was 130. if I recall. We put out a school newspaper, for which I was the editor. Later, in sixth grade, my home room teacher pulled me aside to tell me that I was the most respected kid in the school and was a natural born leader, etc.

Now, all of this could have led me to have a big head. But three things got in the way. One, my best friend Dirk was, to my estimation, just as smart as me, and his IQ was not high enough to crash the "gifted" club. (He later proved his smarts by forming a tech company, Xircom, and then selling it to Intel for hundreds of millions of dollars just before the bubble burst.) Two was that, as smart as I was, I would occasionally have brain farts where I couldn't remember simple things. Three was that I realized having great potential did not necessarily translate to having a great outcome, and that what to others might appear to be blessing could in fact be quite a burden. One day after school I had a talk with one of the class stoners--a guy who was already smoking pot in grade school. He told me that Mrs. Olivier, who'd kept me after class to tell me how respected I was, had kept HIM after class one day to tell him he had the highest IQ in the class, and to tell him he should try harder. Now, most of the kids in school would have called him a xxxx for making such a claim, but I instinctively knew he was right. At no time in my conversation with Mrs. Olivier had she ever discussed my IQ.

Anyhow, years later, on the David Letterman show, if I recall, I saw an interview with the woman with the highest recorded IQ. She wrote stories. And flirted. And was funny... Her intelligence didn't drive her to science, as one might think, but to other endeavors. (Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers discusses the under-performance of geniuses as compared to near-geniuses in detail.)

So...how does this relate to Judyth's story? It relates in that I have no problem believing she has an IQ of 160. She may very well have. But that by no means supports that 1) she is telling the truth, or 2) she was brought on board some top secret science project at an early age.

Pat:

I was placed in a "special" group throughout school where we barked at cars all day.

Doug Weldon

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What is "patently ridiculous" is to place greater weight on later testimony than on earlier, especially

when there is a concerted effort to change history to conform closer to the government's version, in

case you haven't noticed. Your reply does not respond to my argument. Moreover, since you have

entered this fray, I would observe that anyone who has been conducting research on any subject as

long as you claim to have done (for 20 years!) and never published must not have a whole lot to say.

Judyth has suggested that you are waiting until those you discuss are dead so they will not be able

to contradict what you write about them. That would be consistent with my assessment of you, too.

So, it would make more sense to give greater weight to witnesses who gave statements earlier, say, prior to 2000?

Your "argument" is not the issue. It's your dismissal of someone who knows more abut the New Orleans case than you do. A serious scholar would want to know what those with expertise in the New Orleans aspects think about these issues: DiEugenio, Davy, Vea, Pease, Hewitt, Flammonde, Mellen, Epstein, Lambert, Biles, Turner, etc. What DO they think?

We will see what my book - not a one-year-quickie - will have to say.

Interesting comment by Baker. Most of the witnesses I've spoken with are still alive. How many of the people portrayed badly in her account are still alive to give their impressions?

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Incidentally, Judyth told me that Joan Mellen had interviewed her several times

and made use of information she had provided, but without acknowledging her

source.

An email from Joan Mellen to me in 2008. I did not know Joan, it was a cold contact:

From:Joanmel.....

To:barb...@comcast.net

Subject:Re: You are being cited ... can you verify?

Date:Thursday, January 17, 2008 6:37:42 AM

Dear Barb,

Many thanks for writing to me. There is not a single word in my

book that came from Judyth Vary Baker. The information about Oswald in

the restaurant(s) came from Thomas Edward Beckham, in our interviews.

Oswald was alone, according to Mr. Beckham.

In the interest of full disclosure, Judyth Vary Baker did telephone me once,

but the entire conversation involved her attempting to persuade me

that Jim Garrison had a sexual relationship with a Hermaphrodite.

When I asked for a confirming source, she did not produce the name or

contact information. I ended the conversation there. I was not interested

in that line of inquiry in any case.

I was also guided, with respect to some of the

claims about Oswald, by Mary Ferrell, who was a good friend to me.

Mary told me that, based on her knowledge and research, the claims

could not be verified. There were contradictions. I know that the

issue of Mary's position came up some time ago in discussion groups. I

did not say anything because I knew that Mary did not wish to be

disturbed with further, and endless, queries.

Kind regards,

Joan

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"She has an IQ of around 160 and is superb at research."

-- Jim Fester

Read your own sentence. She's a researcher. Doesn't that give you a clue about what she knows? She didn't live all this. She read about it.

Kathy C

While it doesn't follows logically that if you are a researcher you can't also be a witness, the dual role that Judyth has taken on has created confusion and complicates her statements. It would have been much simpler for everyone if she had been able to focus only on what she heard and saw and let others do the research. So that criticism is, I feel, a legitimate issue. It then becomes a baby-bathwater situation. Your choice.

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The processing and selection of ever-more aggressive tumors and cell lines, destined for more recycling and radiation, involved the use of David Ferrie’s large kitchen in his apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway. The product was then handled by Dr. Sherman, who made additional decisions.

Dave Ferrie's kitchen, from several angles, taken while he lived there:

post-2230-1272989351_thumb.jpg

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Awesome pictures Stephen!

Thanks for posting them, they are now saved to my computer

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Jim,

It is not my praise for those authors that serves as a response to your argument.

Judyth Baker's story was in the public domain when they wrote their books.

Your strategy continues to be to disparage any methodology or any research

that does not support your argument, whatever that argument is. I suppose it

has something to do with your perception of the "real deal."

You didn't even know of Ed Haslam's research when you started this thread.

I have asked you several times to enumerate the evidence that Ed provides

in Dr Mary's Monkey that demonstrates that LHO and JVB were lovers.

HINT: That evidence does not include marmosets and particle accelerators.

Ed Haslam told Jim Marrs that it was his belief in Judyth Baker "as a person" that gives

him faith in her story and that he was not really concerned so much with the evidence.

You have a habit of jumping to conclusions that the facts don't warrant.

Paris Flammonde definitely mentions Alton Ochsner and Mary Sherman in his

book. He has spent a major portion of his life researching the events in

Garrisonian New Orleans. He does not mention Judyth Baker.

Think about it!

Nigel Turner did not mention Ed Haslam in his 2003 documentary. Why is that?

Jim, unlike you, I don't have a dog in this fight. My reputation is not on

the line. You've chosen to align yourself against the overwhelming majority

of JFK researchers and the overwhelming majority of Forum members.

You have plenty of excuses and rationalizations for why you have failed

to sway any opinions, despite the voluminous amounts of data you have

provided.

To fall back on how smart and accomplished you and Judyth are to the

exclusion of everyone else, save less than a handful of her supporters,

is the weakest argument of all, in my opinion.

Jack and Michael,

How does your praise for them serve as a response to my argument? HINT:

It doesn't! If you know no more about the methodology of historical research,

it is hardly surprising that you would be unable to uncover a missing witness.

Nigel Turner, Edward Haslam, Howard Platzman, "60 Minutes", and others, too

have done better work on this specific aspect of events in New Orleans. They

probably don't mention Alton Ochsner or Mary Sherman either. Think about it!

Incidentally, Judyth told me that Joan Mellen had interviewed her several times

and made use of information she had provided, but without acknowledging her

source. I have had encounters with Joan Mellen, and it would not surprise me.

Jim

Jim DiEugenio and Bill Davy are likely the two most knowledgeable of JFK New Orleans researchers still around.

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

You could add Paris Flammonde, William Turner and Joan Mellen to that list.

Book Two of Flammonde's Assassination of America opus is entitled The Masques of New Orleans.

He does not mention Judyth Baker.

In the Indices (Book Four), Flammonde includes a review of Bugliosi's Reclaiming History by Jim Fetzer.

There is a typo on the cover and Jim's name appears as Jamers Fetzer.

Mellen's book, A Farewell to Justice does not mention Judyth Baker. Nor does Turner's Rearview Mirror.

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God knows, it's NOT about me. It's about the truth in relation to the death of JFK. If you had spent more time reading Doug's work, you

would be much better informed about the assassination. Give me a break. You entertain a host of views that are utterly unsupportable,

such as that the Groden color-photos are not fake, that the blow-out to JFK's skull was at the top of his head, and more. You are not the

right person to be offering advice to anyone about research on JFK. I have suggested that you spend more time on David Mantik's work

especially his brilliant synthesis of the medical evidence in MURDER. To that I must add, more on Lifton and more on Horne would help.

JIM RESPONDS TO JIM DIEUGENIO COMING FROM OUT OF LEFT FIELD

Well, I embarrassed DiEugenio on another thread and I take it this is his form of retaliation. I suppose he does not mention the dates when this purported "research" was done, because it would reveal the distance in time between the original reports and testimony in relation to the Garrison trial and this (virtually irrelevant) effort expended not long before Reeves Morgan died. There is a natural decay in recollections, which in this case has obviously been exacerbated by deliberate corruption and quite possibly by witness intimidation. Most strikingly, he does not understand that there were two visits and two cars, one of which was a black Cadillac driven by Clay Shaw himself. Judyth, no doubt, will say more. When research is done properly, early testimony when memories are fresher is preferable to later. Just as this guy excoriated Horne for his admiration of David Lifton's work--apparently oblivious that the ARRB had found that there was surgery to the skull and that body alteration had taken place and that there were multiple casket entries, which meant that the key claims of his early work, BEST EVIDENCE, had been vindicated, which Horne was reporting--producing one of the most peculiar reviews I have ever read, where the reviewer apparently wrote the first part of his review completely unaware of the actual findings that would be established during the rest of its pages. This also extends to the issue of Zapruder film alteration, where DiEugnio has declined to take a stand on the ground that the research that would be involved would be too taxing! But that means he has probably not read ASSASSINATION SCiENCE, MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, or THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX, which don't leave much room for hope by anti-alterationists. Even more peculiar, he apparently doesn't know what is coming in the appendix to INSIDE THE ARRB, Vol. IV, which I summarized in "US Government Official: JKF Cover-Up, Film Fakery". I would say that his positions about the events in Jackson are on a par with his review of Horne, which was grossly incompetent. File trails are frequently distorted and incomplete, as the very post on which he is commenting convincingly demonstrates. As a friend of mine likes to say, "How dumb is that?" I used to think he was a serious scholar, but I am now persuaded that, his review of Bugliosi notwithstanding, his work should not be taken at face value. I will invite Judyth to comment in greater detail, but the thought that he and his "brain trust" are more competent and reliable than Howard Platzman or Judyth herself, in view of these considerations, is not merely a stretch but quite ridiculous. The earlier testimony of Lea McGehee, Reeves Morgan, and Mary Morgan is obviously the more reliable.

Jim, the highlighted section above is just not true. The ARRB made NO conclusions. None of the members of its board came out of their experience as supporters of Lifton's theory of body alteration. The only ARRB employee, to my knowledge, who came out of his ARRB experience a committed alterationist was Horne, who went in as a committed alterationist. Jeremy Gunn, Horne's boss, has claimed in year's past that the only thing he learned for sure about the medical evidence was that one can't trust the thirty-year old memories of old people, or something like that. Horne has spent the last decade trying to weave all the conflicting stories into a convincing whole.

But it's more like an unconvincing hole, IMO.

FWIW, IMO, you need to take your lumps and just let the Judyth story drop, if only for a while. While you may have a valid point to make, and where Judyth and her story--as improbable as it sounds--may have something to it, you have let it become personal, and about YOU. You are hurt that men you considered friends fail to trust your judgment re Judyth. You are now claiming DiEugenio has it in for you, when he is simply sharing his own impressions based on actual conversations he has had with actual witnesses.

It's not about you.

Take care.

Jim, I'm afraid you're being a hypocrite. While you criticize those who won't read Haslam, or won't give Judyth a fair shake, due to the fact her story conflicts with what they've come to know, you have never read the mountains of information and analysis I have put online for FREE because it conflicts with what you think you "know."

If you had read what I have written you wouldn't be so high and mighty. So as not to distract from this discussion of Judyth, I am starting another thread in which I will demonstrate an error in Mantik and Horne's work.

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In 2001, Judyth wrote the following reply to David Lifton on an email group. Draw your own conclusions.

Jack

..........

Subject: My boring life, Lifton says, must have needed something, so i

invented 1963.....

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:11 EDT

From: ElectLady63@aol.com

To: [16 addresses redacted]

Stop inventing a story to make your past more interesting than it actually

was.

(aboive line copied from David Lifton's latest newsgroup email about me)

===This is a background about my "boring" life, just for the record. A

little compressed, leaving a lot out, but it would take all night

otherwise.

Odd that David Lifton should say I'm trying to zapp up my

past..........not that i notice much response anymore to what he is

saying.

Still, he knows so little about me He thinks I am trying to generate some

excitement to make up for my appartently boring past. Here are only a few

highlights (I leave out eating at Napoleon's favorite inn in Bordeaux,

translating ancient Egyptian from papyri found on mummies, and making a

telephone call that caused an armed man to be captured who threatened

Reagan's life at an airport, and lots of other stuff that will bore you to

tears...but....for your entertainment: ).

Just beginning in 1966, when helped found the zoo in Austin, Texas, and

Willa Gibbs befriended me, wrote my first novel. This exciting lady had

lived alone in Arabia (later inspiring me to backpack alone across Israel)

and wrote several best-seller books such as the Twelfth Physician, Tell

Your Sons, and Seed of Mischief. She got me interested in God again, and

also got me into anthropology.

At the same time, was marching for peace, writing for underground

newspapers, and got arrested by the FBI in a raid for writing subversive

material, against the vietnam war, but we were all let go (my family knows

about this from day One).....marched and supported Cesar Chavez sometime

in the next few years, too....one of my anti-war friends was shot and

thrown into a freezer. It was Texas, after all.

Spent the summer of 1967 in Saltillo, Mexico, where painted the mountains

and wrote the novel 6 Foot 7 (about Hemming and Lee and betrayal and all

that, but that's a no-no to bring up, sorry...)( it was therapy.) Had

wonderful adventures there, enough to write a book (might sometime)

In 1968 had a baby. Ended up having five babies, being a newspaper

reporter, getting a degree in anthropology, getting my back reconstructed

and learning to walk again, living in interesting places, excavating

archeological and fossil sites, entering into secret (now banned) blood

rites in Mormon temples, working on the skull of Wanda (a pliocene whale)

at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa before hundreds of

onlookers, and of course living in Norway, where was also a newspaper

reporter.

in 1969, had joined the Mormon Church along with husband to start my life

over. Rose through Mormon ranks and met most of its leaders--very hard to

do---and got inside the machinery of that religion, being a state and

regional official in different areas of function, including publicity and

achiving historian. What i wrote became the final version of the church's

history of its members and its official activities in a wide section of

Texas. Can i recount historical events accurately? Mormon Apostles, Stake

Presidents and Bishops thought so.

Had hundreds of friends, maybe a thousand friends. Now think of it as

penetrating to the very heart of LDS secrets as a Temple Mormon, who later

exposed Mormonism's controlling patriarchy,narrow-mindedness and fakery to

the world here and overseas: I proved the falsehood of certain documents,

at the same time receiving death threats--and people were bombed and

killed at this same time in Utah over such documents.

In between, served on Bicentennial Commission in Stafford, Texas, and

designed the city's bicentennial memorial garden there for that event.

Also got my name on the monument there, for civic service, as an honest

newspaper reporter: That's how was appointed to the Commission in the

first place.

My kids were voted most popular, played with state champion-to-be football

team, and were valedictorians, their blushing single mother so thrilled.

I served in Bradenton as tutor, counselor to women, a state-trained child

abuse investigator, and made some rescues of children that could be made

into a movie, including a shotgun shoved against my chest, etc. .

Previously, I'd rescued, and caused to be rescued, dozens of starving

pregnant mares and got new laws passed in state of Texas against animal

abuse...and founded FBC

Humane Society.

Got mafia bordellos raided, making them very mad at me, about the same

time......and on the side, interviewed Don Hull, former FBI, at now-Sugar

land airport, where Dave Ferrie had a plane waiting to try to get special

somebodies to Laredo, in November 1963, but oh, i am not to mentiuon that,

either....sorry...

Interviewed the Sugar Land state prison's head warden, too, who was slain

shortly afterward by a rebellion only days later. Had interviewed some of

the prisoners who murdered him.

Uncovered mafia headquarters in Houston region and my son was there

with me. owned my own art studio and designed cards for Neiman-Marcus,

Sakowitz, Foley's and Houston Heritage Society. Sold art prints that went

worldwide, and created artwork for ARCO and other big oil companies.

Wrote roadshows for teenagers to perform in and directed teen roadshows in

Texas area. Wrote music for roadshows. Was manager of two political

campaigns, one won (County Commissioner) , the other (State

Representative) came in second in field of eight.. Since then got a

master's at UCF, created a new dog breed, ----and reopened the old wounds

of my past.

Have painted portraits of racehorses for millionaires and advised surgeons

in New York hospitals how to stop abdoiminal adhesions from forming. made

mice get cancer from cigarettes in record time and received national

attention and support for those efforts. Was kidnapped while trying to

become a nun, by my own Catholic parents. They took my roommate's clothes

by mistake in their haste--size DD bras, etc. She, i suppose, had to make

do with mine.......

Traveled to so many places I've lost track. Just like Lee, ironically, I

lectured men of the cloth --but they were monks in California---and just

like Lee-- again ironically--- had to learn Russian. Met so many people

from so many cultures. Even designed Norwegian sweaters for a factory in

Stavanger, found a viking ship site there, and a Norwegian stone ship

grave.

In Oslo in 1986 I attended Elie Weisel's (sp?) Nobel peace prize

ceremonies, for the newspaper The Saga. So many wonderful people there!

When i asked for excommunication from the LDS church, eighteen friends

accompanied me as witnesses: only the truth could be written down at the

church high council's court.

And there was a dramatic flight a year after, from Norway, that Josiah

could tell you about, as Mormons tried to stop me from leaving Robert. The

control he had over me was enormous, and all the protestant friends who

had been with me through the excommunication thronged the airport there,

to make sure the Mormons --there were at least fifteen or twenty of them

there--- couldn't stop me from boarding the plane. They tried.. Josiah

will tell you it was one group pressing against the other. But I got on

the shuttle to London, the Mormons running to buy tickets so they could

stop me in London. No more room on that shuttle, so I went into the air,

leaving them all behind. They vowed to come after me as i waited for my

flight to New York, but a storm arose, and the next shuttles were

canceled.

I Made my way with Jim and Sarah to Florida. And finally got two more of

the five children. Robert very bitter, sued us five or six times, but at

least was free. My Mormon family had done such things as buried my contact

lenses and destroyed my clothing so i could not go to a different (they

saw it as evil and radical) church. It was really rough at the time, the

control that was over me by Robert. I have sent some of you his "I am your

lord and master" "revelation" from God. There were many such edicts from

the Lord to the Servant.

He had been directing every little detail, as you know, down to writing

letters to me listing every single thing I could spend, and how, and what

i could or could not do. . I rebounded into fundamental christian

churches, and became sought as a speaker on radio and television and

elsewhere against Mormonism. All under fake names, because of my past,

culminating in 1963.

I've invented a new process for getting magnesium out of seawater, created

new uses for organic limolenes that take the place of phosphate-based

cleaning compounds, and wrote a three act play with original music with a

co-author, that was presented to celebrate the sesquicentennial of the

Mormon Church. Helped write lessons to improve the spiritual, cultural

and emotional levels of women in the church. Helped design LDS social

services publicity events, and LDS commercials and convention/fair booths.

Also broke up a witch's coven and uncovered its head warlock. Sent police

and a Mormon bishop to rescue, I am not kidding, a crippled virgin from

their midst, Judy Devries, who was going to be burned alive in a telephone

booth. . My family will verify this, too. Happened on Hazard St. near the

Diablo Club in Houston.

I'd like to finish excavating the Stelly Mound complex here---(older than

Poverty Point) and would be possibly the oldest in Americas, if we can get

it radiocarbon dated again. Had the excavation begun three years ago and

need to return to it.

I want to ride horses, breed those American Cream dogs, go back to Norway

and Egypt and do more archeology, work in cancer research again, and of

course, i love teaching drama and poetry at university here, as well as

English composition.

To end this long email, have attached a sample of writing one of my

students expects me to read. Every single word is numbered--she didn't

want to write one syllable past her 500 words! I don't think anybody would

believe me if i tried to describe this writing, so you just look and judge

for yourself this great challenge before me of interpreting it!

I have wonderful friends. One only 39, a petroleum engineer who has been

so much more than a friend. IHave always felt loved by many dear people,

but also have chronic pain--and chronic other pains, such as Mr. Lifton.

Could have taken the matters of 1963 to my grave. But made the commitment

after being pinned to the wall, so to speak, by Martin, and there i stand.

get a life, Lifton advises.

if he only knew.

-j-

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In 2001, Judyth wrote the following reply to David Lifton on an email group. Draw your own conclusions.

Jack

..........

Subject: My boring life, Lifton says, must have needed something, so i

invented 1963.....

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:11 EDT

From: ElectLady63@aol.com

To: [16 addresses redacted]

Stop inventing a story to make your past more interesting than it actually

was.

(aboive line copied from David Lifton's latest newsgroup email about me)

===This is a background about my "boring" life, just for the record. A

little compressed, leaving a lot out, but it would take all night

otherwise.

Odd that David Lifton should say I'm trying to zapp up my

past..........not that i notice much response anymore to what he is

saying.

Still, he knows so little about me He thinks I am trying to generate some

excitement to make up for my appartently boring past. Here are only a few

highlights (I leave out eating at Napoleon's favorite inn in Bordeaux,

translating ancient Egyptian from papyri found on mummies, and making a

telephone call that caused an armed man to be captured who threatened

Reagan's life at an airport, and lots of other stuff that will bore you to

tears...but....for your entertainment: ).

Just beginning in 1966, when helped found the zoo in Austin, Texas, and

Willa Gibbs befriended me, wrote my first novel. This exciting lady had

lived alone in Arabia (later inspiring me to backpack alone across Israel)

and wrote several best-seller books such as the Twelfth Physician, Tell

Your Sons, and Seed of Mischief. She got me interested in God again, and

also got me into anthropology.

At the same time, was marching for peace, writing for underground

newspapers, and got arrested by the FBI in a raid for writing subversive

material, against the vietnam war, but we were all let go (my family knows

about this from day One).....marched and supported Cesar Chavez sometime

in the next few years, too....one of my anti-war friends was shot and

thrown into a freezer. It was Texas, after all.

Spent the summer of 1967 in Saltillo, Mexico, where painted the mountains

and wrote the novel 6 Foot 7 (about Hemming and Lee and betrayal and all

that, but that's a no-no to bring up, sorry...)( it was therapy.) Had

wonderful adventures there, enough to write a book (might sometime)

In 1968 had a baby. Ended up having five babies, being a newspaper

reporter, getting a degree in anthropology, getting my back reconstructed

and learning to walk again, living in interesting places, excavating

archeological and fossil sites, entering into secret (now banned) blood

rites in Mormon temples, working on the skull of Wanda (a pliocene whale)

at the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa before hundreds of

onlookers, and of course living in Norway, where was also a newspaper

reporter.

in 1969, had joined the Mormon Church along with husband to start my life

over. Rose through Mormon ranks and met most of its leaders--very hard to

do---and got inside the machinery of that religion, being a state and

regional official in different areas of function, including publicity and

achiving historian. What i wrote became the final version of the church's

history of its members and its official activities in a wide section of

Texas. Can i recount historical events accurately? Mormon Apostles, Stake

Presidents and Bishops thought so.

Had hundreds of friends, maybe a thousand friends. Now think of it as

penetrating to the very heart of LDS secrets as a Temple Mormon, who later

exposed Mormonism's controlling patriarchy,narrow-mindedness and fakery to

the world here and overseas: I proved the falsehood of certain documents,

at the same time receiving death threats--and people were bombed and

killed at this same time in Utah over such documents.

In between, served on Bicentennial Commission in Stafford, Texas, and

designed the city's bicentennial memorial garden there for that event.

Also got my name on the monument there, for civic service, as an honest

newspaper reporter: That's how was appointed to the Commission in the

first place.

My kids were voted most popular, played with state champion-to-be football

team, and were valedictorians, their blushing single mother so thrilled.

I served in Bradenton as tutor, counselor to women, a state-trained child

abuse investigator, and made some rescues of children that could be made

into a movie, including a shotgun shoved against my chest, etc. .

Previously, I'd rescued, and caused to be rescued, dozens of starving

pregnant mares and got new laws passed in state of Texas against animal

abuse...and founded FBC

Humane Society.

Got mafia bordellos raided, making them very mad at me, about the same

time......and on the side, interviewed Don Hull, former FBI, at now-Sugar

land airport, where Dave Ferrie had a plane waiting to try to get special

somebodies to Laredo, in November 1963, but oh, i am not to mentiuon that,

either....sorry...

Interviewed the Sugar Land state prison's head warden, too, who was slain

shortly afterward by a rebellion only days later. Had interviewed some of

the prisoners who murdered him.

Uncovered mafia headquarters in Houston region and my son was there

with me. owned my own art studio and designed cards for Neiman-Marcus,

Sakowitz, Foley's and Houston Heritage Society. Sold art prints that went

worldwide, and created artwork for ARCO and other big oil companies.

Wrote roadshows for teenagers to perform in and directed teen roadshows in

Texas area. Wrote music for roadshows. Was manager of two political

campaigns, one won (County Commissioner) , the other (State

Representative) came in second in field of eight.. Since then got a

master's at UCF, created a new dog breed, ----and reopened the old wounds

of my past.

Have painted portraits of racehorses for millionaires and advised surgeons

in New York hospitals how to stop abdoiminal adhesions from forming. made

mice get cancer from cigarettes in record time and received national

attention and support for those efforts. Was kidnapped while trying to

become a nun, by my own Catholic parents. They took my roommate's clothes

by mistake in their haste--size DD bras, etc. She, i suppose, had to make

do with mine.......

Traveled to so many places I've lost track. Just like Lee, ironically, I

lectured men of the cloth --but they were monks in California---and just

like Lee-- again ironically--- had to learn Russian. Met so many people

from so many cultures. Even designed Norwegian sweaters for a factory in

Stavanger, found a viking ship site there, and a Norwegian stone ship

grave.

In Oslo in 1986 I attended Elie Weisel's (sp?) Nobel peace prize

ceremonies, for the newspaper The Saga. So many wonderful people there!

When i asked for excommunication from the LDS church, eighteen friends

accompanied me as witnesses: only the truth could be written down at the

church high council's court.

And there was a dramatic flight a year after, from Norway, that Josiah

could tell you about, as Mormons tried to stop me from leaving Robert. The

control he had over me was enormous, and all the protestant friends who

had been with me through the excommunication thronged the airport there,

to make sure the Mormons --there were at least fifteen or twenty of them

there--- couldn't stop me from boarding the plane. They tried.. Josiah

will tell you it was one group pressing against the other. But I got on

the shuttle to London, the Mormons running to buy tickets so they could

stop me in London. No more room on that shuttle, so I went into the air,

leaving them all behind. They vowed to come after me as i waited for my

flight to New York, but a storm arose, and the next shuttles were

canceled.

I Made my way with Jim and Sarah to Florida. And finally got two more of

the five children. Robert very bitter, sued us five or six times, but at

least was free. My Mormon family had done such things as buried my contact

lenses and destroyed my clothing so i could not go to a different (they

saw it as evil and radical) church. It was really rough at the time, the

control that was over me by Robert. I have sent some of you his "I am your

lord and master" "revelation" from God. There were many such edicts from

the Lord to the Servant.

He had been directing every little detail, as you know, down to writing

letters to me listing every single thing I could spend, and how, and what

i could or could not do. . I rebounded into fundamental christian

churches, and became sought as a speaker on radio and television and

elsewhere against Mormonism. All under fake names, because of my past,

culminating in 1963.

I've invented a new process for getting magnesium out of seawater, created

new uses for organic limolenes that take the place of phosphate-based

cleaning compounds, and wrote a three act play with original music with a

co-author, that was presented to celebrate the sesquicentennial of the

Mormon Church. Helped write lessons to improve the spiritual, cultural

and emotional levels of women in the church. Helped design LDS social

services publicity events, and LDS commercials and convention/fair booths.

Also broke up a witch's coven and uncovered its head warlock. Sent police

and a Mormon bishop to rescue, I am not kidding, a crippled virgin from

their midst, Judy Devries, who was going to be burned alive in a telephone

booth. . My family will verify this, too. Happened on Hazard St. near the

Diablo Club in Houston.

I'd like to finish excavating the Stelly Mound complex here---(older than

Poverty Point) and would be possibly the oldest in Americas, if we can get

it radiocarbon dated again. Had the excavation begun three years ago and

need to return to it.

I want to ride horses, breed those American Cream dogs, go back to Norway

and Egypt and do more archeology, work in cancer research again, and of

course, i love teaching drama and poetry at university here, as well as

English composition.

To end this long email, have attached a sample of writing one of my

students expects me to read. Every single word is numbered--she didn't

want to write one syllable past her 500 words! I don't think anybody would

believe me if i tried to describe this writing, so you just look and judge

for yourself this great challenge before me of interpreting it!

I have wonderful friends. One only 39, a petroleum engineer who has been

so much more than a friend. IHave always felt loved by many dear people,

but also have chronic pain--and chronic other pains, such as Mr. Lifton.

Could have taken the matters of 1963 to my grave. But made the commitment

after being pinned to the wall, so to speak, by Martin, and there i stand.

get a life, Lifton advises.

if he only knew.

-j-

:ph34r:

I read that email a long time ago and I laugh harder now then I did back then

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Jack,

You've really geared up these past couple of days, Thanks for an interesting read, hehehe - it's beyond comment, really.

And I miss the part where she's assisting in the de-programming of former mormon church members, as she told Swedish authorities. But perhaps that took place after all this occured, who knows?

GV

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Jack,

You've really geared up these past couple of days, Thanks for an interesting read, hehehe - it's beyond comment, really.

And I miss the part where she's assisting in the de-programming of former mormon church members, as she told Swedish authorities. But perhaps that took place after all this occured, who knows?

GV

For some reason a dozen or so forum members look to me as their leader (not so), and email me stuff

that I might find of interest, but which they do not want to post. I pass along things which I find interesting.

I do not vouch for their veracity.

Jack

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