Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Greg Burnham]

[...snip]

Mr Weldon, do you really believe that my reaction to someone's prejudice, stereotyping and discrimination against a group of people who have only one defining characteristic is "exaggerated"? It is this type of "lazy discrimination" that results in most of the problems we see in our world today, and unfortunately the problems seen many, many times before to varying degrees of hostility.

Actually, Jim's friends have more than one defining characteristic--they are also social psychologists, among other accomplishments. But, of course, you are correct, Lee: Any and all "definitions" that might lessen the negative impact perceived by those prejudice against homeless persons is minimized, if not, totally ignored.

That's how hatred works...it's better done from a position of ignorance, not a position of strength.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Dean Hagerman]

admitted acting as judge, jury and executioner against a homeless person - who was inebriated I might add, and therefore unlikely to be able to defend himself against such a spineless attack. [/color]

Please show me the post in which I claimed to "attack" a homeless person Greg

Dont accuse me of something I did not say

I think you need to go back and read what I wrote very slowly

All I did was tell him to please not use that type of vulgar language in front of my wife and other customers

Edited May 6, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[Jack White]

Since I do not have an email address for Ed Haslam, I would like to thank him

here for sending me a complimentary copy of DR. MARY'S MONKEY. At first glance

it is much thicker and more profusely illustrated than MARY, FERRIE AND THE

MONKEY VIRUS, its predecessor. I will read it when I have time...especially to get

his take on JVB. Thanks, Ed.

Jack

[Doug Weldon]

MonK:

Your point is well taken but I think these criticisms of Dean are exaggerated.

I did not and have not criticized Dean. I called a spade a spade.

Any of us, rightly or wrongly and probably wrongly, would be more skeptical of the testimony of a homeless person.

[my emphasis]

Doug -- "probably" ? You know better than that. It is not a "probably" situation--! It is absolutely wrong. If you are appealing to an argument of "human frailty or the human condition" that is all fine and good as a mitigating circumstance by which to justify Dean's perspective--but it fails to justify the lack of logic in the argument.

Unfortunately, prejudices are part of the human experience. We are all "victims" of our experiences. No argument. I would like to move on.

Let's put it this way.

If Dean's thought processes were say, used in the context of race, he would be referred to as a "racist" would he not?

If his thought processes were used in the context of gender, he would be referred to as a "sexist", would he not?

If these same thought processes were used in the context of homosexuals, he would be referred to as a "homophobe."

If these same thought processes were used in the context of teenagers or children, he would be an "adultist."

We wouldn't put up with it if Dean made the same arguments and comments about "people" with disabilities. If he made the same comments about "mexican people" I'm sure people would have something to say. If he suggested that all "muslims are the same" because of his experiences with a minority of "muslims" I'd react in the exactly same way.

Why are people less concerned when stereotypes and anti-social prejudices are used when it covers a group of people not governed and protected by legislation?

Mr Weldon, do you really believe that my reaction to someone's prejudice, stereotyping and discrimination against a group of people who have only one defining characteristic is "exaggerated"? It is this type of "lazy discrimination" that results in most of the problems we see in our world today, and unfortunately the problems seen many, many times before to varying degrees of hostility.

Lee:

I agree with you. My only point was that this thread not be turned into a stone throwing contest. The point was made and I am certain Dean understood it.

Doug Weldon

[Dean Hagerman]

The point was made

I understand it

I have exchanged PMs with Jim about it and he accepted my apology

Thats all, I do not like homeless people because of what happened to me, I was not born hating homeless people

[Michael Hogan]

Since I do not have an email address for Ed Haslam, I would like to thank him

here for sending me a complimentary copy of DR. MARY'S MONKEY. At first glance

it is much thicker and more profusely illustrated than MARY, FERRIE AND THE

MONKEY VIRUS, its predecessor. I will read it when I have time...especially to get

his take on JVB. Thanks, Ed.

Jack

There are two chapters that deal with Judyth Vary Baker. Jim Fetzer has reproduced them more than once

in the course of this thread. His posts came from a revised version of Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus

but they are the same virtually verbatim as the two chapters in Dr Mary's Monkey.

Haslam will recommend that you read JVB's first book, Lee Harvey Oswald, in order to make up your own mind.

I will be surprised if you find out anything you don't already know, or hasn't been discussed in this thread.

Maybe Jim will answer your questions more readily than he answered mine.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Michael Hogan

[Karl Kinaski]

Awesome pictures Stephen!

Thanks for posting them, they are now saved to my computer

I take it they were shot when they found Ferrie dead?

Kathy C

Yes. 2/22/67

I know, that is OT, Steven. But, since you are Ferrie-Expert, may I ask you what is your opinion about his death? Two typed suicide-letters were found...but the coroner said he died of natural causes. Funny thing. Isn't it? Maybe you have already solved that mystery? (The same day Ferries good friend del Valle was brutally killed...coincidence?)

KK

[Michael Hogan]

David,

......You have a motive that drives you--to protect your investment in your

manuscript, which I presume has to be tossed if Judyth is correct.

David Lifton has probably spent spent many sleepless nights since this thread commenced,

worried that Jim Fetzer was going to prove to the world that Judyth Baker is the "real deal."

I'm sure that Jim is aware that Ed Haslam had a very strong motive to believe JVB's story,

a belief that Haslam has admitted is based largely on faith. (i.e. his belief in her "as a person.")

Haslam knew that his first book, Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus (1995) suffered from the

lack of a "living witness." In the five years since he self-published it, Haslam sold 2000 copies,

1000 of which were Xeroxed.

In 2000, after becoming aware of Judyth Baker via 60 Minutes, Haslam's first thoughts were

of concern "that 60M could easily discredit her story as a means of discrediting my story." (Page 285, DMM)

Thus it was established early on that Haslam had a vested interest in JVB being the "real deal."

[Pamela Brown]

David,

......You have a motive that drives you--to protect your investment in your

manuscript, which I presume has to be tossed if Judyth is correct.

David Lifton has probably spent spent many sleepless nights since this thread commenced,

worried that Jim Fetzer was going to prove to the world that Judyth Baker is the "real deal."

I'm sure that Jim is aware that Ed Haslam had a very strong motive to believe JVB's story,

a belief that Haslam has admitted is based largely on faith. (i.e. his belief in her "as a person.")

Haslam knew that his first book, Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus (1995) suffered from the

lack of a "living witness." In the five years since he self-published it, Haslam sold 2000 copies,

1000 of which were Xeroxed.

In 2000, after becoming aware of Judyth Baker via 60 Minutes, Haslam's first thoughts were

of concern "that 60M could easily discredit her story as a means of discrediting my story." (Page 285, DMM)

Thus it was established early on that Haslam had a vested interest in JVB being the "real deal."

Michael,

That may be a fair-enough criticism, but let's keep the field level. Lifton is notoriously anti-Garrison, so anything that would corroborate the Garrison investigation in any way seems to be an anathema to him. Thus, Lifton has a vested interest in trying to destroy Judyth.

[Stephen Roy]

I know, that is OT, Steven. But, since you are Ferrie-Expert, may I ask you what is your opinion about his death? Two typed suicide-letters were found...but the coroner said he died of natural causes. Funny thing. Isn't it? Maybe you have already solved that mystery? (The same day Ferries good friend del Valle was brutally killed...coincidence?)

KK

I don't know about expert - I prefer to be called a Ferrie specialist.

I haven't yet come to Ferrie's death in my writing (but I'm getting close) and I haven't formulated a firm opinion. I used to think I was pretty sure, but others have caused me to re-think things.

I'm not so sure those were suicide letters. One is a long screed against the justice system, and seems to refer to legal problems Ferrie had in 1961. The other could be construed as a farewell letter, of some sort. Neither was found in any obvious "suicide place," if you get my meaning. The first was in a pile of papers on a bookcase, and the second was in an envelope under a table, marked "to be opened in the event of my death." The envelope also contained a will from the previous July, burial instructions, who to notify, etc.

As for delValle, I'm also not so sure he was a "good friend." Virtually all references to the friendship track back to an article in a Spanish-language newspaper by Diego Gonzales Tendedera. The article has Ferrie in Miami at a time when he was flying for Eastern Air Lines and a few other mistakes or problems. So I'm not sure about that article as a source. Escalante mentions Ferrie and delValle, but this, too may also have come from the Tendedera article. I'm still looking for confirmation of the relationship from other sources. AJ Weberman doesn't think they worked together.

[Jack White]

David,

......You have a motive that drives you--to protect your investment in your

manuscript, which I presume has to be tossed if Judyth is correct.

David Lifton has probably spent spent many sleepless nights since this thread commenced,

worried that Jim Fetzer was going to prove to the world that Judyth Baker is the "real deal."

I'm sure that Jim is aware that Ed Haslam had a very strong motive to believe JVB's story,

a belief that Haslam has admitted is based largely on faith. (i.e. his belief in her "as a person.")

Haslam knew that his first book, Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus (1995) suffered from the

lack of a "living witness." In the five years since he self-published it, Haslam sold 2000 copies,

1000 of which were Xeroxed.

In 2000, after becoming aware of Judyth Baker via 60 Minutes, Haslam's first thoughts were

of concern "that 60M could easily discredit her story as a means of discrediting my story." (Page 285, DMM)

Thus it was established early on that Haslam had a vested interest in JVB being the "real deal."

You have a very good point that several people who discredit JVB have a vested interest

in debunking her. Likewise, those who promote her also have a vested interest. Her wild tales,

if true, impeaches years of research, or at least an investment of time and credibility (such as in

Jim's case).

I have NO vested interest either way. Her strange stories to me make NO difference in the JFK

investigation. I am impartial, but not neutral. After evaluating her stories, I believe they are

largely fiction based on a minimal truth and massive research.

I believe Haslam's vested interest was related to his father. His father, Dr. Ed Haslam, worked

for Dr. Oschner. Through family connections I speculate that he suspected that the AIDS virus

had been produced by the Oschner group, and as a family matter, he wanted to clear his father

of any participation in the monkey research. This is just speculation, of course...but would be

a far stronger motive than just writing a book. The JVB part is merely a late addition to the

book in order to try to confirm some loose ends.

Jack

[Barb Junkkarinen]

The bottom line will continue to be if her assertions check out. The only question I heard addressed that I raised was the first one about the handwriting. It appeared that she is not going to have it examined but then offered a handwriting analysis herself. Again, she cannot be the analyst for her own evidence. No expert is going to reach a conclusion in a few minutes as she suggested. ....... Corroboration is very important. I am waiting to see how things turn out with things she has claimed to have done. Legitimate questions are being pursued. I am puzzled why you are proclaiming she is authentic while these questions are still in the air. I am keeping an open mind and seeing if her assertions are true. She will always create a doubt unless she has the handwriting properly analyzed. I was also puzzled about the monkeys. She kept saying thousands of pounds of monkeys , not thousands of monkeys, but then talked about 65 pound monkeys. She later talked about the marmousett(sic) monkeys but thousands of pounds of these would be thousands of monkeys. It may be my misunderstanding but it was not clear to me. I have yet to listen to her witnesses but will do so. It matters not to me if they are prominent or homeless or whatever but everyone judging this will weigh their demeanor, etc. I don't know if someone is confronting them with question. I wish I could question them.

Hi Doug,

Well put. Legitimate and fair questions have been asked. This is a great opportunity for Judyth to resolve issues raised. The handwriting is of significant importance to her claims. Refusal to have it analyzed does indeed create doubt, and for good reason. I too found the monkey explanation a bit jumbled, they were getting a good laugh out of it, but as you noted, if one does the math, it makes no sense and cleared up nothing.

In addition to having the handwriting professionally examined, and the other questions you listed answered, I again ask for Judyth to have Fetzer post the "sheaf" of documents she said she was quoting from in her BlackOps radio interview a few years ago ... documents that she claims show the apportionment of grants and other funds for her continued research at the U of Florida, Gainesville.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Early Judyth, excerpt from an e-mail ... from October 2000.

Subj: Re: test

Date: 10/6/00 3:49:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Americanwebworks

To: Dreitzes

CC: Howpl

(.........................)

i am not interested in maing any money or peddling a book. I got an

agent hoping to get the book i wrote--which put everything down in

detail before i talked to anybody, and then had a professor keep a

truncated version of it in caseanything happened to me--that shows i

have never deviated from my account from the first. however, if people

ask me something, i will add information. For exakple, Debra Conway

asked me intimate questions about Lee, since she knew information from

things i never knew existed. Example: was lee circumcized? (no). The

pointnis that whatever i might not have thought to put down, if

somebody asked, i emailed them .....

(.......)

God bless you,Dave,

Judyth V. Baker

Per Oswald autopsy report:

The penis is circumcised.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H26_CE_3002.pdf

Circumcision comment is third to last comment in second paragraph.

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Early Judyth ... excerpt from long e-mail, OCTOBER 2000:

Subj: Re: test

Date: 10/6/00 3:49:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Americanwebworks

To: Dreitzes

CC: Howpl

(....)

i do not need books, and read nothing, just marina and lee because

she was the other woman.

it was so outrageous, some of what i read in there, that all the old

feelings came rushing back. i knew everything that had been going on,

she knew almost nothing, and much was misrepresented. especially

9laughable) his being home all the time).

(....)

i have NO books, Dave.

i don;t need any books.

I've got it all in my head.

Amazon review JANUARY 19, 2000:

21 of 24 people found the following review helpful:

5.0 out of 5 stars Mary, Ferrie: VERY Interesting! CIA Monkey Business, January 19, 2000 By Avary Baker (Louisiana, USA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Mary, Ferrie & the Monkey Virus : The Story of an Underground Medical Laboratory (Paperback)

Ed Haslam reveals that two -- maybe more--secret cancer research laboratories were connected with Tulane University, Dr. Alton Ochsner, and persons associated with the Kennedy assassination such as "Dr." David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald. Logical, organized, and intriguing, this book contains hard-to-find photos and a good map. Haslam did his homework: he may have discovered the murderers of eminent cancer research scientist and orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Mary Sherman, who was found with a missing arm, on fire, and full of knife wounds, one to her heart. His book gives the reader a picture of sabotage, biological blunders and anti-Castro lab activity, and gives us hints about where the AIDS epidemic came from. Since this happened in New Orleans in 1963-1964, there may have been a lot of reasons for all the cover-ups concerning Oswald, who lived only about a mile from Dr. Sherman and the high tech research facility where she seems to have secretly worked. Bring your brains along, though: this book forces you to rethink what many people take for granted about the role of Lee Oswald, the alleged assassin of JFK.

Link: http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Ferrie-Monkey-V...6115&sr=1-1

Barb :-)

[John Dolva]

It's the pointnis that's circumcized. (musta been a bad hair day)

edit:typos

Edited May 6, 2010 by John Dolva