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Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile


Guest James H. Fetzer

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Pseudonym was perhaps the wrong name for signing the review the way she did. BUT it was intended to hide her identity.

Otherwise she would have signed it Judyth Baker, Judyth Vary Baker, Judy Baker, etc.

Avary Baker sounds like a man's name. Avary was her parents' name and her name as a child. For reasons not divulged,

she changed her name from Avary to Vary. It is unknown whether this was a legal change or a teen whim. So Avary was her

name...just not her customary name.

In any event, signing the review Avary Baker instead of Judy Baker was meant to hide her identiity...like a pseudonym.

Jack

Ahhh, okay, I see what you mean, and yes, I agree. But her family name was Vary ... what she did here was add an A to it to make it look like a first name. She had Fetzer post some nonsense back when she posted that Stelly Mound thing that she hated the name Vary and/or was afraid to use the name Vary (I don't remember which it was in this thread) so had started using the name Avary Baker. Makes no sense to me either. At the time she posted the review in Jan 2000, not many knew the name Judyth Vary Baker. But if she had already planned to deny having/reading books on the assassination, as she emphatically did in that e-mail to Dave in October 2000,, she was foolish to post it at all.

Barb :-)

Maybe I am mistaken. I remember reading that she "hated the name AVARY, and shortened it to VARY". Maybe I misremembered.

Jack

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This circumcision thing could be a real game changer. I don't know how I missed it, unless it was while I was in the hospital. Barb, could you post a link to the "very long ramble" where she explains it?

I don't understand how a woman, who claims a great ability to recall details, who had an intimate relationship with a man could be wrong about such a detail. And the autopsy report/picture alteration thing sounds farfetched, too. Why would anybody (in 1963-4? Or even later) go to the lengths of altering a report and picture of that one detail?

This reminds me a bit of another item I brought up with Baker: She said Oswald told her about Uncle Dutz, but she pronounced the name wrong. I always thought it was pronounced to rhyme with "butts," but I later learned it was correctly pronounced to rhyme with "boots." But until I brought it up, Baker pronounced it "butts." She explained that she went with Martin Shackelford's insistence that it rhymed with "butts." But if you were Baker, who would you trust to pronounce it correctly: Martin, or Oswald himself? How could she have gotten that wrong?

Here ya go, Steve. This was an epistle written to Rich DellaRosa who posted it on his forum. Dave Reitzes posted it on the mod group a month later. It was just a year ago. The circumcision issue is in paragraphs 15 and 16. :-)

It is full of so many tangled things ... including some claims about having provisional asylum in Sweden. And on the circumcision, she's putting a spin on it blaming Debra, making it sound like she had never told Debra LHO was not circumcised and trying to make it sound like Debra was saying she had a photo that showed he was *not* ... which makes no sense because if that was the case, there would have been no reason for Chapman to have called Judyth and essentially challenged her on her having told Debra that O was not circumcised. She says she told Debra Oswald was "well endowed."

There is a little something for everyone in here ... she mentions Armstrong and Haslam in here too. In my opinion, this is just a longer than usual ramble where she gives her usual spin on when she and 2 others barged into Mary Ferrell's home with a tape recorder and other things ... a long spin of turning things around, everything is someone else's fault, she's a victim ... and then at the end she mentions the "donate" button on her website because she and her service dog both need medical care. Pretty sad and telling overall, imo.

It is here:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...sassination.jfk

I recall your having mentioned the mispronunciation of Dutz before ... and, of course, if she knew Oswald, she would have known ...and used ... the correct pronunciation. And she never would have said conflicting things about him being circumcised.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Even if she trys to dance around what she told Coinway her e-mail to Reitzes is very clear and irrefutable.

Doug Weldon

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Thanks for the link to that email, Barb.

Three things stand out for me. 1) (assuming she in fact wrote the email) Baker holds that Haslam's book was reviewed in Budapest newspapers--plural. I don't believe this for a second.

Hi Pat,

I agree with you overall, as well as on your point above. I doubt the Hungarian newspaper reviews story as well ... and here is one reason why:

On her new book's amazon page, Judyth wrote a long ditty called, "TEN YEARS OF BATTLE" - it's a biography. One thing she says in it is:

While teaching in Hungary, in 2007, I was suddenly told I had to quit: Hungarian agents warned me to leave the country, but not to return to America. The date: sept. 8 - the same day Edward T. Haslam's book, dr. Mary's Monkey, was reviewed by a popular blogger in Hungary. I ended up fleeing to Scandinavia, where I sought political asylum.

As I recall from another telling, she left Hungary in a real hurry. So here it's a blogger, no mention of newspaper(s), and she fled to Sweden.

Further down in this biography, she says this:

I finally obtained safe haven in the Middle east and in Europe, through the actions of friends and my children, just before I would have been forced to go back to America. Instead, I am free to go anywhere I choose, and do so, but I am a woman without a country, without a home, unable to see my grandchildren and children, for I do not want bad things to happen to them because of my presence. I am grateful for those who handled my case in Sweden, who despite political difficulties grated me time to find safe haven (actually, two safe havens!). I'm safe now, I feel, thanks to everyone's help. I do hope someday to be able to safely live and travel in my own country.

Judyth left Sweden in early July 2008.

Now see this info from Dave Reitzes ... and a letter to the editor:

Web Letters: November 22, 1963: You Are There By Our Readers & Max

Holland

This article appeared in the March 20, 2006 edition of The Nation.

[http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060320]

----------

Max Holland has done a great deal of useful research. Joan Mellen's

comments, however, are excellent and well expressed, showing

brilliance.

Judyth Vary Baker

Montgomery, AL

08/03/2008 @ 12:11pm

The wonder of the cyber age ... it could have been written from anywhere, I reckon.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited by Barb Junkkarinen
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Pseudonym was perhaps the wrong name for signing the review the way she did. BUT it was intended to hide her identity.

Otherwise she would have signed it Judyth Baker, Judyth Vary Baker, Judy Baker, etc.

Avary Baker sounds like a man's name. Avary was her parents' name and her name as a child. For reasons not divulged,

she changed her name from Avary to Vary. It is unknown whether this was a legal change or a teen whim. So Avary was her

name...just not her customary name.

In any event, signing the review Avary Baker instead of Judy Baker was meant to hide her identiity...like a pseudonym.

Jack

Ahhh, okay, I see what you mean, and yes, I agree. But her family name was Vary ... what she did here was add an A to it to make it look like a first name. She had Fetzer post some nonsense back when she posted that Stelly Mound thing that she hated the name Vary and/or was afraid to use the name Vary (I don't remember which it was in this thread) so had started using the name Avary Baker. Makes no sense to me either. At the time she posted the review in Jan 2000, not many knew the name Judyth Vary Baker. But if she had already planned to deny having/reading books on the assassination, as she emphatically did in that e-mail to Dave in October 2000,, she was foolish to post it at all.

Barb :-)

Maybe I am mistaken. I remember reading that she "hated the name AVARY, and shortened it to VARY". Maybe I misremembered.

Jack

Easy to get mixed up with all the twists and turns .... for sure! Her maiden name was Vary ... and she uses it as her middle name. Her given middle name at birth was Anne. Used to be fairly common for women to use their maiden name as their middle name once they got married.

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Early Judyth, excerpt from an e-mail ... from October 2000.

Subj: Re: test

Date: 10/6/00 3:49:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Americanwebworks

To: Dreitzes

CC: Howpl

b] For exakple, Debra Conway

asked me intimate questions about Lee, since she knew information from

things i never knew existed. Example: was lee circumcized? (no). [/b]

God bless you,Dave,

Judyth V. Baker

Per Oswald autopsy report:

The penis is circumcised.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H26_CE_3002.pdf

It's difficult to read LHO's autopsy. It's not too clear. But I noticed one thing: Did it actually say "the pubic hair has been shaved"? The only reason I think a man would shave his pubic hair is if he had crabs. And he was circumsized. How could Judyth say he wasn't? It's something a girl notices...

Kathy C

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I have photographic proof that Oswald is in fact circumcised

The autopsy photograph I have leaves no doubt that he is

Add this with the autopsy report and we have a for sure strike against Judyth that she had no idea and just guessed that he wasnt

If she had as she said a hot and heavy love affair she would know for SURE if he was or was not circumcised

She said he was NOT

We know for a fact that he WAS

Produce the photo.

Kathy C

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I have photographic proof that Oswald is in fact circumcised

The autopsy photograph I have leaves no doubt that he is

Add this with the autopsy report and we have a for sure strike against Judyth that she had no idea and just guessed that he wasnt

If she had as she said a hot and heavy love affair she would know for SURE if he was or was not circumcised

She said he was NOT

We know for a fact that he WAS

Produce the photo.

Kathy C

Kathy I have the photo, trust me

I will not post it on this forum for obvious reasons and I will not email it to anybody until I have a chance to view some other photos

Please wait, that is all I can say

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There are three such pix. One color slide by the FBI, two b/w polaroids of unknown provenance.

No need to post any of them as they are mere curiosities and show nothing of evidentiary value.

Someone mailed me a CD with the two b/ws; I copied the FBI set from Gary Shaw but the slide

would be hard to find and has not been scanned.

Jack

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Judyth says Oswald was left handed:

Subject: Re: The Lonely Bull

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:08:31 -0600

From: "J. Avary Baker" <americancr...@sprintmail.com>

Organization: Living History Foundation (non profit) and ACPBA (American

Cream Puppy Breeders Association)

To: Peter Cox <Pe...@litopia.com>

Dear Peter, and Peggy, and all:

(....)

Anyway, here are the last items that are really important, I think, and

should be included in the document you have, wherever you might see fit, or

as suggested. Those items in quotations are the ones which need to be added

to the text.

1. (Lee was left-handed, and I think this needs to be noted) "We would walk

down the street together holding hands, and I would walk on the outside, Lee

on the inside, so he could hold my right hand, and I could hold his left.

Yet Lee often displayed ambidexterity. Both of us could write with both

hands at the same time, in what could be termed 'mirror writing.' When Lee

wrote like this, he didn't make any spelling errors."

(.....)

Thank you very much!!!!

Happy Easter to all of you!

Affectionately, Judyth

Warren Commission testimony...

Marina:

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed..

His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

Robert Oswald:

Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.

Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?

Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.

At one time I could handle it with both hands especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.

Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.

Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did he write with his right or his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Right handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.

There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.

Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.

Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be repeating myself here at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.

Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.

John Pic:

Mr. JENNER - By the way, are you right handed?

Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Is your brother Lee right or left handed?

Mr. PIC - I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my mother made him change.

Marguerite:

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.

Mr. RANKIN. But you are?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.

But Lee was more left handed than I am.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Marguerite seems a tad confused, but everyone else, including his wife, say he was right handed. His handwriting does not appear to have a left hand slant either.

Barb :-)

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Barb is counting on no one reading this carefully, because it shows Judyth admitting a mistake and correcting

her false impression that SV-40 was the same as AIDS. That turned out to be wrong, which she acknowledged.

That is showing more intellectual integrity than most of her critics on this thread, who never admit mistakes or

acknowledge when she is right about "double-dating" with Anna, Lee's eye-color, or "the disappearing witness".

JUDYTH’S STORY HAS REMAINED CONSTANT ACROSS TIME

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the AIDS virus.(75)

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, a precursor to the AIDS virus.(76)

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, Simian Virus 40 (SV-40), unrelated to the AIDS virus.(77)

Note that the first two quotes above are from material written before Judyth read Haslam's first book in late 1999/early 2000 (her amazon review, posted earlier today, is dated January 19, 2000) .... the third quote is from later ... after she is known to have read and reviewed Haslam's book.

Dave Reitzes, whose link David Lifton posted a few days ago, has done a great job collecting and sourcing a lot

of the changes in Judyth's claims/story "across time" ... including the above.

The numbered source notes:

75. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy": "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the AIDS virus."

76. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance," alternate draft provided to Robert Vernon, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the PRECURSOR OF THE AIDS virus. Note: This material, DERIVED FROM VIRAL CONTAMINANTS FOUND in the early polio vaccine and other applications, is now the subject of an important new book on the origin of AIDS, Edward Hooper's The River." "Judyth's Story," outline provided to Robert Vernon on December 23, 1999, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the cancer cells. This material -- from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- is now the subject of a new book on the origin of AIDS." Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, October 9, 2004: "Read the book. [Note: Judyth acknowledged in an Internet forum post of September 27, 2004, that despite five years of trying, she has been unable to find a publisher for her book.] The matter is too complex to be explained by Mr. Reitzes, who is relying on a portion of an incomplete summary of the process written by somebody else."

77. Rene Zwaap, "An American Hero," De Groene Amsterdammer, June 21, 2003 (based on an interview with Judyth Vary Baker), automated translation, posted by John McAdams to alt.assassination.jfk, July 8. 2003: "[Oswald] got a hurry course over it go around with the transport of living cancer cells, that in a special chemical liquid living could become hold. By that technique was worked with SV-40, material that were pulled from the kidneys [of monkeys], that also became uses by the development of the polio vaccine. The target of the operation was Castro with it to infect. He stood known as a lover of cigars and nobody will it thus strangely of look up as he lung cancer would get." Howard Platzman, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 31, 2003: "The outline is meant as a catch-all. It has had errors in it before and it probably has errors in it now. . . . Anyway, the medical stuff is not that easy to understand and I got parts of it wrong myself, so please tread with caution. SV-40 is not HIV, but they are related. Initially, I thought they were the same. Both attack the immune system and both jumped species from monkey to man."

Dave's site:

http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

And thanks to Dave for having had things in one place, all sourced, for a very long time now ... a real time saver.

Barb :-)

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Guest James H. Fetzer

As I am about to explain, there is a larger issue here than circumcision, though

I agree that that is a matter that Judyth should address. The concern which I

previously expressed toward Dean had less to do with circumcision and more

to do with faked autopsy photos. But then why should I find that surprising?

I have photographic proof that Oswald is in fact circumcised

The autopsy photograph I have leaves no doubt that he is

Add this with the autopsy report and we have a for sure strike against Judyth that she had no idea and just guessed that he wasnt

If she had as she said a hot and heavy love affair she would know for SURE if he was or was not circumcised

She said he was NOT

We know for a fact that he WAS

Produce the photo.

Kathy C

Kathy I have the photo, trust me

I will not post it on this forum for obvious reasons and I will not email it to anybody until I have a chance to view some other photos

Please wait, that is all I can say

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Guest James H. Fetzer

This is very peculiar. Even his mother says he was left-handed, while

Marina, Robert, and John say right-handed. How could his mother be

wrong about something like this? It suggests to me that he may have

been ambidextrous. I don't see this as carrying weight against Judyth.

Judyth says Oswald was left handed:

Subject: Re: The Lonely Bull

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:08:31 -0600

From: "J. Avary Baker" <americancr...@sprintmail.com>

Organization: Living History Foundation (non profit) and ACPBA (American

Cream Puppy Breeders Association)

To: Peter Cox <Pe...@litopia.com>

Dear Peter, and Peggy, and all:

(....)

Anyway, here are the last items that are really important, I think, and

should be included in the document you have, wherever you might see fit, or

as suggested. Those items in quotations are the ones which need to be added

to the text.

1. (Lee was left-handed, and I think this needs to be noted) "We would walk

down the street together holding hands, and I would walk on the outside, Lee

on the inside, so he could hold my right hand, and I could hold his left.

Yet Lee often displayed ambidexterity. Both of us could write with both

hands at the same time, in what could be termed 'mirror writing.' When Lee

wrote like this, he didn't make any spelling errors."

(.....)

Thank you very much!!!!

Happy Easter to all of you!

Affectionately, Judyth

Warren Commission testimony...

Marina:

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed..

His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

Robert Oswald:

Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.

Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?

Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.

At one time I could handle it with both hands especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.

Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.

Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did he write with his right or his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Right handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.

There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.

Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.

Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be repeating myself here at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.

Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.

John Pic:

Mr. JENNER - By the way, are you right handed?

Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Is your brother Lee right or left handed?

Mr. PIC - I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my mother made him change.

Marguerite:

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.

Mr. RANKIN. But you are?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.

But Lee was more left handed than I am.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Marguerite seems a tad confused, but everyone else, including his wife, say he was right handed. His handwriting does not appear to have a left hand slant either.

Barb :-)

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Barb is counting on no one reading this carefully, because it shows Judyth admitting a mistake and correcting

her false impression that SV-40 was the same as AIDS. That turned out to be wrong, which she acknowledged.

That is showing more intellectual integrity than most of her critics on this thread, who never admit mistakes or

acknowledge when she is right about "double-dating" with Anna, Lee's eye-color, or "the disappearing witness".

I hope everyone reads carefully. And more carefully than you .... as the one admitting a mistake was Howard Platzman, as noted below, :

" Howard Platzman, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 31, 2003: "The outline is meant as a catch-all. It has had errors in it before and it probably has errors in it now. . . . Anyway, the medical stuff is not that easy to understand and I got parts of it wrong myself, so please tread with caution. SV-40 is not HIV, but they are related. Initially, I thought they were the same. Both attack the immune system and both jumped species from monkey to man."

JUDYTH’S STORY HAS REMAINED CONSTANT ACROSS TIME

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the AIDS virus.(75)

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, a precursor to the AIDS virus.(76)

The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, Simian Virus 40 (SV-40), unrelated to the AIDS virus.(77)

Note that the first two quotes above are from material written before Judyth read Haslam's first book in late 1999/early 2000 (her amazon review, posted earlier today, is dated January 19, 2000) .... the third quote is from later ... after she is known to have read and reviewed Haslam's book.

Dave Reitzes, whose link David Lifton posted a few days ago, has done a great job collecting and sourcing a lot

of the changes in Judyth's claims/story "across time" ... including the above.

The numbered source notes:

75. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy": "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the AIDS virus."

76. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance," alternate draft provided to Robert Vernon, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material -- scraped from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- was, in fact, the PRECURSOR OF THE AIDS virus. Note: This material, DERIVED FROM VIRAL CONTAMINANTS FOUND in the early polio vaccine and other applications, is now the subject of an important new book on the origin of AIDS, Edward Hooper's The River." "Judyth's Story," outline provided to Robert Vernon on December 23, 1999, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that knocks out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the cancer cells. This material -- from the kidney's [sic] of sick monkeys -- is now the subject of a new book on the origin of AIDS." Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, October 9, 2004: "Read the book. [Note: Judyth acknowledged in an Internet forum post of September 27, 2004, that despite five years of trying, she has been unable to find a publisher for her book.] The matter is too complex to be explained by Mr. Reitzes, who is relying on a portion of an incomplete summary of the process written by somebody else."

77. Rene Zwaap, "An American Hero," De Groene Amsterdammer, June 21, 2003 (based on an interview with Judyth Vary Baker), automated translation, posted by John McAdams to alt.assassination.jfk, July 8. 2003: "[Oswald] got a hurry course over it go around with the transport of living cancer cells, that in a special chemical liquid living could become hold. By that technique was worked with SV-40, material that were pulled from the kidneys [of monkeys], that also became uses by the development of the polio vaccine. The target of the operation was Castro with it to infect. He stood known as a lover of cigars and nobody will it thus strangely of look up as he lung cancer would get." Howard Platzman, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 31, 2003: "The outline is meant as a catch-all. It has had errors in it before and it probably has errors in it now. . . . Anyway, the medical stuff is not that easy to understand and I got parts of it wrong myself, so please tread with caution. SV-40 is not HIV, but they are related. Initially, I thought they were the same. Both attack the immune system and both jumped species from monkey to man."

Dave's site:

http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html

And thanks to Dave for having had things in one place, all sourced, for a very long time now ... a real time saver.

Barb :-)

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Guest James H. Fetzer

SOME FURTHER REFLECTIONS ABOUT JUDYTH FROM MY PSY OPS EXPERT

NOTE: Given that I have tried to end this thread, I should have anticipated a blizzard of parting

shots, where I anticipate replying more when I am back in touch with Judyth. I am working on

proof that some of these autopsy photos have been faked. I ask anyone who may have copies

to please send them to me. I need to find another copy of a specific autopsy photograph that I

have but am unable to locate. I have asked Jack and some others to provide assistance, where

I will post my findings when I have marshaled the evidence. That it has happened, however, I

have no doubt. When Barb asks "Why in the world would anyone do that?", of course, it pains

me to hear it, since we both know only one person's credibility would thereby be cast into doubt.

I've received some further thoughts from my psy ops expert. Since so much of what appears

here is negative--in my opinion, without justification--I hope that no one is going to complain if

I post his positive review. I would also like to express my appreciate for some posts that came

from Lee Farley and from Todd Vaughan. It is reassuring that a few of those who are following

this thread are exercising some critical judgment, since most of you, in my view, are not. I am

concerned that I have not heard from Judyth since she departed from London on Tuesday, and

I will be relieved to know she is alive and well. My personal experiences with her, including our

collaboration on this thread, convince me beyond any doubt she is the person she claims to be.

FURTHER REFLECTIONS

Your work helping Judyth Vary present her story has generated a xxxxstorm among some whose research is not highly relevant or been shown to probably be down a rabbit hole to no-where. It is a hard landing for those who have spent so much time going in the wrong direction.

As I have said before, regardless of whether folks believe many of the individual details of Judyth's story, the proven presuppositions are important enough to take serious note:

1-Oswald was proven by docs to have been trained as a spy, and to use sex in his tradecraft, did so while stationed at Atsugi (maybe a training exercise, or pulled into a russian female honeypot as a precurser for later op in russia as a defector), got an STD, was treated for it, and was not punished as is typically the case.

2- Judyth was "lured" to New Orleans. The only explanation that makes sense was to continue her proven track record and ongoing cancer induction research track wityh which she had already proven herself very proficient to the point some medical folks took notice. And it would have taken a fairly high level individual such as Dr. Sherman or Dr. Ochsner to entice her to NO (this supports her contention she was offered a substantial career track and medical educational opportunity). It seems plausible that Judyth's story about Ochsner being the person who brought her there is what really happened.

3- There is a live witness on video (Anna Lewis) that stated that her and her man double dated with Judyth and LHO. [NOTE: And there is another, Kathy Santi, M.D., a close friend of Judyth at the University of Florida, in whom she confided her plans to move to New Orleans in the expectation of entering the Medical School at Tulane, which Dr. Ochsner had proposed. See her YouTube interview about her transition from Gainesville to New Orleans.]

4- Ferrie had told others of working on cancer reserach and there were reports of mice in his apt, and the police found at least one research paper on cancer which suggested Ferrie had sophisticated knowledge of cancer research.

5- Ochsner was likely "dirtied up" by taking a stand that the polio vaccine was safe using his grandkids and being wrong, his grandson died and his granddaughter got polio (could intel have done this to motivate Ochsner to set up a covert program to get rid of the monkey virus vaccine contaminants?).

6- It seems plausible that Judyth was used to work on this research at Ferrie's small secret lab as a parallel side program to weaponize cancer, then using the particle accellerator to refine the viral chains (the particle accelerator being brought in for the main cover story and reason to clean up the polio vaccines of the monkey viral contaminants. So you have a ddep black bioweapon program run inside a secret program to clean up the polio vaccine which was used as cover for the deep black bioweapon program.

7- Because Judyth and LHO both were proven to have worked at Reily coffee in a relatively small close environment, it makes perfect sense to believe that LHO knew her and worked with her because of Anna's detailed video statement that LHO and Judyth dated each other. And it also makes sense that LHO was sent to "run into" Judyth at the post office and to "manage her" at least initially.

8- The strange, staged murder of Dr. Sherman strongly suggests that intel did not want her testifying to any warren commission investigators about any part of the secret program (cleaning up the polio vaccine of monkey viruses) or its hidden black op (weaponizing cancer as a bioweapon). This supports a strong intel involved, especially in view of LHO being a proven intel op in a current deep cover role and his prior history of training and practice on Atsugi.

So Jim, if we stop right here, this is enough to set a context for the importance of Judyth's basic story. Even if she was mind kontrolled and stressed to the point where she has made many errors of recollection (done to her as a big psyop to make her whole story easier to discredit), that in and of itself does not effect the basic suppositions I have listed above. By the way, this is typically attempted by intel to make it easy to discredit a witness, so that the most important part of their story is thrown out to like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

So Jim, there you have it. That is why I don't need to even verify every single part of Judyth's story (the little details) in order to realize her basic premises when placed along with Ed Haslams excellent, highly credible research and book, turns the whole JFK Assassination research community on its head and takes up where Jim Garrison left off. Not only is this shocking, it is downright disturbing to those who have gone in a different direction for many years and who wrote Judyth and her story off some years ago, when she first came forth. If Garrison was alive to see this, he would have loved every bit of it.

There are three such pix. One color slide by the FBI, two b/w polaroids of unknown provenance.

No need to post any of them as they are mere curiosities and show nothing of evidentiary value.

Someone mailed me a CD with the two b/ws; I copied the FBI set from Gary Shaw but the slide

would be hard to find and has not been scanned.

Jack

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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